Please read the following book(it's really fantastic):
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas from which I got many of these questions.
Further Questions:
When you honor the son as you honor the father,do you honor him as appointed king and Messiah OF God,as God's most beloved son,as the bible describes him?Or do you honor him as Almighty God,One who is the same being his father is,as the bible nowhere indicates you should?Would you call Jesus's father the only true God like Jesus did?How come Jesus is never called the only True God but distinguished his being from his father's?
Do you believe every ounce of Jesus's being was speaking when he said "No one is good but one,God" and "the father is greater than I?"If not,why not?If not,isn't that an implication of schizophrenia ,and can you show me a scripture that says he is 200 percent and the weaker 100 percent human portion overpowered the 100 percent God portion of his being?Are you SURE this isn't an inference?
If man is made in God's image,where are the other two persons in your being,each 100 % you?iIf you think that sounds nuts,think about how the trinity sounds to skeptics!
Why do trinitarians insist that Jesus being the son of God made him equal to God just because the Jews assumed this to be so?Didn't the Jews also assume he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath?Were they really reliable people for finding truth?Didn't Jesus refute them by saying things like "I do nothing by myself","my words are not my own","ye are all gods" etc?If you believe the Jews,then you've made the word of Jesus invalid by accepting theirs.And if Jesus WAS equal to God in some way(by God's power working through His agency and in will and purpose possibly?)how would that suggest ANYTHING but that he cannot actually BE God?If you're equal to someone,are you the same "being" as that one?
Will you admit that Jesus' father is REALLY greater than him like the bible says or will you infer your own wild philosophy onto the simple truthful holy word and say only 1 of his 200 percent was talkin?
Will you respect the word and trust that God alone is wise and good or will you trust Athanasius and Tertullian and your preacher for your doctrine,even if it means heaping a preconceived fallacy on every text that distinguishes Jesus FROM GOD?
Will you accept Jesus as the Messiah and savior and son of God and appointed king and heir or will you accept him as the same being whose son he is who blessed him and gave him everything he has?
How come you say it was just a human nature inheriting something that as Almighty God he already possessed when the bible only says that Jesus,God's son through obedience and faithfulness,inherited something from his own God and father that he EARNED?
Are you implying that the 100% GOD part wasn't powerful enough to overcome the HUMAN limitations?
If Jesus is coequal why would he pretend he wasn't?Is Jesus deceptive?Why didn't he indicate that one hundred percent of the 200 percent of his person was absent from his statements of reliance and inferiority?Wouldn't this be a SERIOUS omission?
If he was God wouldn't the son of God have been deceptive language?
If God said "I am the son of God" he would be a liar,unless he's no longer just one being.
If Jesus became like his brothers in every way,does this mean they are God?If Christians have the fullness of God,does this mean they are God?If Adam had the image .or form.of God,did that mean he was God?Is Moses God,cause he was God to Pharaoh and Aaron?If not,why are these standards proof Jesus was God?
Why do trinitarians suggest that Jesus having a share of God's glory means he has to be God when Jesus indicates at John 17:22 that his followers will share in the SAME glory,suggesting the kind of glory he himself possesses,a glory afforded him as a gift from his God?And if he has it and then his disciples will,will they be in the godhead too?
And the following are from the website :
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/questions.html
Why do Trinitarian apologists fail to mention their defender Athanasius believed "God became man so that men might become gods." ?
Why do Trinitarians suggestively imply the early Christian Tertullian had Trinitarian beliefs but refrain from disclosing that he declared the Son was inferior to the Father and also insisted there was a time when the Son was not?
Why does the Trinitarian three person God mislead his people by using the singular personal pronouns "I" and "ME"?
How do Trinitarians expect anyone to believe the shema given by God to Israel, "The LORD our God the LORD is one" was intended to mean to the Jewish people "the Lord is one substance" or "the LORD is one trio"?
Why do Trinitarians misrepresent the facts of history by claiming the Trinity issue was settled at the Council of Nicea when Arians had almost won the day 40 years later? And why do they fail to mention the Arian controversy was really ended politically by a decree of Emperor Theodosius 55 years after Nicea?
Why do Trinitarians declare the number of individuals of the "US" and "OUR" group at Genesis 1:26 to be three persons, no more, no less, without any evidence whatsoever? And why they refuse to consistently refer to God as "THEY" and "THEM"?
Why did Jesus say, "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent" instead of "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know Us, the only true God?"
Also of interest to a trinitarian..the following blog:
http://putawaythatmeat.blogspot.com/2009/03/trinity-on-trialstolen-from-another.html
This is a MUST read :-)....thanks!
Wednesday, April 29, 2009
Thursday, April 2, 2009
Reasoning with trinitarians part 4
This blog was originally written in response to a particular trinitarian's objections but I've modified it as some of my beliefs have changed.Hope this still makes some sense and doesn't seem discombobulated because of the quick and choppy editing.
Trinitarians say in Revelation 5:13-14 the same glory and praise is being given to Jehovah and Christ,and that if two people are given the same thing from someone, they are sharing it.
1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.”..so by this reasoning,am I to assume the king is thought of as the same God Yahweh is?And no I’m not comparing Jesus to an earthly king because he is second most high over all,but your standards for being Jehovah are skewed.
Jesus was a servant OF Jehovah,an agent of Jehovah and a son of Jehovah.Can’t dance around it.
Another triniatrian objection is that God is the only savior therefore Jesus is God.
Nnyone Jehovah uses to save through can be called savior.Who sent Jesus to save?Would Jesus have been able to save if he hadn’t been sent?
Here’s a point from my blog:
1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bile in basic English)
Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb’s younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God’s world translation)
Isaiah 19:20:he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)
By trinitarian standards,anyone Jehovah sent forth to save or rescue his people could be called almighty God.
I would be interested in finding out what you think Jesus preached about most ?Was it his own name and his own death?Or was it the kingdom of God and his father’s name?Aren’t we to follow in his footsteps?Should our entire gospel message be Jesus or should it go beyond him all the way to the kingdom message and his God and father’s name?If Jesus opened the way for us to reach Jehovah,why should we stop at Jesus and assume there is no one to reach through him?If Jesus is your “all in all” then you are ignoring HIS “all in all”.That might be dangerous.
Jesus was a miraculously conceived human being who was about to be exalted above his partners!Now let’s think about this for a minute..who would his partners be?And if Jesus was Almighty God would it really be appropriate to say he has partners that Almighty God will exalt him above ONLY BECAUSE of his obedience and faithfulness and conquering of the world and saving man?And if one Almighty God exalts another Almighty God above his partners how many almighty Gods is that exactly?I don’t think Jehovah has partners..I think he has servants and sons and subordinates.I don’t think Jehovah can learn obedience and be exalted,but apparently trinitarians do.
Jesus was “the Last Adam”..Now if one perfect man had the power to cause the fall of all men then another perfect man ,on Jehovah’s scales of absolute justice ,had the power to buy back the lives that the other had lost.Remember,God cannot die and you are robbing us of atonement,Mr. Trinitarian ..because you don’t believe Jesus REALLY died do you?Just a human nature but Jesus was REALLY alive somewhere right?If Jesus,all of him,wasn’t dead for three whole days in that tomb,not only are you preaching a different Jesus,but your atonement is null and void.
Jesus WAS absolutely a PERFECT SINLESS miraculously conceived human being while he was here.Able to be tempted and able to die.Because of his relying on Jehovah for everything,supplicating continually,and throwing his burdens on Jehovah,he was sinless and the flawless sacrifice for our redemption.He was the LAST Adam..now I know for a fact that the heavens can't even contain the Most High,that the Most high is so holy that he can't LITERALLY live amongst unholy men..in fact,so holy that his perfect flawless son has to mediate,yet you think this same Most High was tempted,relied upon and continually supplicated to himself and resided amongst the very men that are too unholy to even speak to him without mediation.Also,that he died.This is grossly unbiblical and made possible only by a pagan philosophy that turns one into three,that redefines son,and calls God mortal and assumes a soul cannot be destroyed or die,again,UNBIBLICAL.What it IS ,however,is philosophical and creedal.Again,if one perfect man who sinned was able to make every one of us lose our lives then another perfect man who didn't sin,but instead humbled himself under the mighty hand of HIS GOD,could buy them back!!THAT is Jehovah's scales of justice.I don't care about your own.After all,God can't die and souls aren't immortal till they're GIFTED immortality and Jesus wasn't until he was raised on the third day.Any other teaching is a different Jesus and a lie.Jehovah sent his son to die.Not himself.
2 Samuel 7:12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. 14 I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. 15 As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. 16 And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
So now I can only ask you if Jehovah reproved himself and allowed men to abuse and kill himself or was it his son?I would also wonder if the one who was brought before the "Ancient of Days" WAS the "Ancient of Days" or was it his son and heir?How is this scenario a remote possibility if they are the SAME God and where is the holy spirit?Now did Jehovah will and grant a kingdom,as firstborn heir,to himself or to his son?Do you understand the concept of a father and a son?
I obviously can't read hebrew or greek,but what I can do is understand what "one" "sent" "servant" "given" different will" "nothing of my own initiative" "supplication" "tempted" "dead" "agent" "representative" and "father and son" mean.
I have yet to have a single "Christian" soul find me a passage where the "firstborn" of a group is not a MEMBER of that very group.Am I to assume something different for Jesus,that suddenly he isn't a part of God's very creation??OF COURSE NOT.After all,he DID call Jehovah his God and father and HIS God and father did testify from the very heavens that Jesus is a beloved son!And I'm supposed to turn off reasoning with a creed remote and turn down the volume with a philosophy button to believe these two very distinct personalities are the very same being.No thanks.I prefer to utilize my reasoning and listen carefully to Jehovah and Jesus's own testimonies.
Lots of reiiteration sure to abound ahead..caution:
(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
He doesn't say,I am going my way to the father ,who isn't REALLY greater than I am
..(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God
He didn't say "I'm about to lie here"
..(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
He didn't say "triune Jehovah"
..(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him
it doesn't say there is one triune God with father,son and holy ghost
Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever!
He didn't say "one of my two natures died"
Who did Peter say Jesus was ?
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16:16).
He didn't say "you are Jehovah God Almighty,one of three persons of Jehovah God Almighty.
Who did Jesus say his father was?
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God
He didn't say he was one of three persons in the same true God.
And I've yet to receive an honest response to this:"True God from True God"..how many True Gods is that?
Trinitarians say in Revelation 5:13-14 the same glory and praise is being given to Jehovah and Christ,and that if two people are given the same thing from someone, they are sharing it.
1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.”..so by this reasoning,am I to assume the king is thought of as the same God Yahweh is?And no I’m not comparing Jesus to an earthly king because he is second most high over all,but your standards for being Jehovah are skewed.
Jesus was a servant OF Jehovah,an agent of Jehovah and a son of Jehovah.Can’t dance around it.
Another triniatrian objection is that God is the only savior therefore Jesus is God.
Nnyone Jehovah uses to save through can be called savior.Who sent Jesus to save?Would Jesus have been able to save if he hadn’t been sent?
Here’s a point from my blog:
1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bile in basic English)
Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb’s younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God’s world translation)
Isaiah 19:20:he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)
By trinitarian standards,anyone Jehovah sent forth to save or rescue his people could be called almighty God.
I would be interested in finding out what you think Jesus preached about most ?Was it his own name and his own death?Or was it the kingdom of God and his father’s name?Aren’t we to follow in his footsteps?Should our entire gospel message be Jesus or should it go beyond him all the way to the kingdom message and his God and father’s name?If Jesus opened the way for us to reach Jehovah,why should we stop at Jesus and assume there is no one to reach through him?If Jesus is your “all in all” then you are ignoring HIS “all in all”.That might be dangerous.
Jesus was a miraculously conceived human being who was about to be exalted above his partners!Now let’s think about this for a minute..who would his partners be?And if Jesus was Almighty God would it really be appropriate to say he has partners that Almighty God will exalt him above ONLY BECAUSE of his obedience and faithfulness and conquering of the world and saving man?And if one Almighty God exalts another Almighty God above his partners how many almighty Gods is that exactly?I don’t think Jehovah has partners..I think he has servants and sons and subordinates.I don’t think Jehovah can learn obedience and be exalted,but apparently trinitarians do.
Jesus was “the Last Adam”..Now if one perfect man had the power to cause the fall of all men then another perfect man ,on Jehovah’s scales of absolute justice ,had the power to buy back the lives that the other had lost.Remember,God cannot die and you are robbing us of atonement,Mr. Trinitarian ..because you don’t believe Jesus REALLY died do you?Just a human nature but Jesus was REALLY alive somewhere right?If Jesus,all of him,wasn’t dead for three whole days in that tomb,not only are you preaching a different Jesus,but your atonement is null and void.
Jesus WAS absolutely a PERFECT SINLESS miraculously conceived human being while he was here.Able to be tempted and able to die.Because of his relying on Jehovah for everything,supplicating continually,and throwing his burdens on Jehovah,he was sinless and the flawless sacrifice for our redemption.He was the LAST Adam..now I know for a fact that the heavens can't even contain the Most High,that the Most high is so holy that he can't LITERALLY live amongst unholy men..in fact,so holy that his perfect flawless son has to mediate,yet you think this same Most High was tempted,relied upon and continually supplicated to himself and resided amongst the very men that are too unholy to even speak to him without mediation.Also,that he died.This is grossly unbiblical and made possible only by a pagan philosophy that turns one into three,that redefines son,and calls God mortal and assumes a soul cannot be destroyed or die,again,UNBIBLICAL.What it IS ,however,is philosophical and creedal.Again,if one perfect man who sinned was able to make every one of us lose our lives then another perfect man who didn't sin,but instead humbled himself under the mighty hand of HIS GOD,could buy them back!!THAT is Jehovah's scales of justice.I don't care about your own.After all,God can't die and souls aren't immortal till they're GIFTED immortality and Jesus wasn't until he was raised on the third day.Any other teaching is a different Jesus and a lie.Jehovah sent his son to die.Not himself.
2 Samuel 7:12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. 14 I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. 15 As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. 16 And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
So now I can only ask you if Jehovah reproved himself and allowed men to abuse and kill himself or was it his son?I would also wonder if the one who was brought before the "Ancient of Days" WAS the "Ancient of Days" or was it his son and heir?How is this scenario a remote possibility if they are the SAME God and where is the holy spirit?Now did Jehovah will and grant a kingdom,as firstborn heir,to himself or to his son?Do you understand the concept of a father and a son?
I obviously can't read hebrew or greek,but what I can do is understand what "one" "sent" "servant" "given" different will" "nothing of my own initiative" "supplication" "tempted" "dead" "agent" "representative" and "father and son" mean.
I have yet to have a single "Christian" soul find me a passage where the "firstborn" of a group is not a MEMBER of that very group.Am I to assume something different for Jesus,that suddenly he isn't a part of God's very creation??OF COURSE NOT.After all,he DID call Jehovah his God and father and HIS God and father did testify from the very heavens that Jesus is a beloved son!And I'm supposed to turn off reasoning with a creed remote and turn down the volume with a philosophy button to believe these two very distinct personalities are the very same being.No thanks.I prefer to utilize my reasoning and listen carefully to Jehovah and Jesus's own testimonies.
Lots of reiiteration sure to abound ahead..caution:
(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
He doesn't say,I am going my way to the father ,who isn't REALLY greater than I am
..(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God
He didn't say "I'm about to lie here"
..(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
He didn't say "triune Jehovah"
..(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him
it doesn't say there is one triune God with father,son and holy ghost
Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever!
He didn't say "one of my two natures died"
Who did Peter say Jesus was ?
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16:16).
He didn't say "you are Jehovah God Almighty,one of three persons of Jehovah God Almighty.
Who did Jesus say his father was?
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God
He didn't say he was one of three persons in the same true God.
And I've yet to receive an honest response to this:"True God from True God"..how many True Gods is that?
Wednesday, April 1, 2009
2 Corinthians 5:8 and the kingdom of God
At first,I was just going to write a very brief blog to address 2 Corinthians 5:8.But somehow it turned into a kingdom blog.I called it Kangdom,not because I can't spell but because I live in Kentucky.
Orthodox Christians say:
2 Corintians 5:8:we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
So their reasoning is that death is nothing but the separation of the soul from the body(just like Satan's lie..no one ever REALLY dies!) so the resurrection MUST BE just a rejoining of the two.
Ok..this answer is from a yahoo message board from a JW I 'm assuming ..anyway,here it is(MUCH better than anything I could've said):
At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.
When would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” He added, , “ the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.
This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.
Gotta love some good ol' logic!After all,we know the dead are described as sleeping and having no thoughts at all,which would be impossible were they alive somewhere.It is of utmost importance to recognize corresponding texts to exegete those that seem to state something so clearly..they MUST be used with others,the succint majority!The bible also points out that God made this earth "even to be inhabited" and flesh(which doesn't inhabit the heavens) will be praising his holy name forever on a cleansed perfected earth.
Even when the dead are dead,he sees them AS THOUGH they are alive.He has a book of remembrance,which isn't reconcilable with the immortal soul doctrine.(Just one of MANY things that aren't!)Also,if the resurrection is just a "rejoining" of soul and body,why is it even happening..if the souls are in their destinies why is there a need for this and why is there a future judgment if one has already occurred?
Romans 8:18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
And what expectation can this creation anticipate,as Heavenly Jerusalem descends from the heavens over the earth for the benefit of mankind?Well,obviously we can expect untold benefits and blessings that Adam and Eve could've had for an eternity had they never sinned.
Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
I believe those nations will be on earth,enjoying the "trees of life,with leaves that heal" and "rivers of waters of life".
Genesis 2:9:And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden
Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.
So the bride,the anointed,urge all those wishing to live forever in a paradise on earth to take life's water free!How awesome is that?!
Reminds us of this:
John 4:13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”
God did not put it into the hearts of men to desire peace on earth and love for nature and animals etc..only to have us think our only hope is one in the heavens!If you feel that peace on earth with no more sickness and death,with blessings unimaginable sounds like a good thing,then that is because your creator gave you those ideals and hopes.Ones that he can fulfill.
Revelation 5:10: and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings on the earth
Psalms 45:16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons,Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.
So what this says to me,those who were Jesus's forefathers (Abraham ,David etc) will be appointed in powerful positions right here!
All one gargantuan and benevolent theocratic organization,as God is a God of order and peace and not of disarray.
And when will these things occur?Well,it has to be soon.In the bible,Jehovah always destroyed wicked cities and people at the peak of their wickedness and folks,things couldn't get much worse.If ya don't think so,look at how television or schoolchildren have changed JUST SINCE the 50's.BIG difference!Huge!
And I am quite sure if you're on the internet much at all,you have heard about a lil somethin called the New World Order.Without getting into it too much,I would like to point out that it correlates with the tower of Babel.Jesus compared our days to those days so I think we are living in VERY significant times!
In the book of Daniel,chapters 2 and 7,we are told through visions that Daniel interpreted by means of God's holy spirit,the succession of world powers that would ensue upon this earth.They were Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medo-Persia,Greece,Rome and then lastly,the Anglo-American!And that is the last one!The book of revelation lets us know that this last one will remain "a short time",so we're nearly there folks!What will happen?Well,I won't get into the destruction of false religion and the cries of "Peace and Security!" etc,but there will certainly be tribulation like we have NEVER known,and there will never be anything like it ever again..Sounds abysmal and frightening,BUT afterward,BLESSINGS!
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
And I think we all know what kind of kingdom that will be and what kind of king it will have!So if we endure to the end in the love and worship of Jehovah and the veneration and recognition of our Lord and savior,Jesus Christ,our hearts should swell with the hope ahead!
Romans 15:4: For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope
The bible lets us know to seek knowledge,righteousness,meekness,love,fine works,etc..and we will inherit many blessings.Let us not give up and may we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God Almighty.All those who do will be exalted and all those who don't will suffer humiliation and ultimately,destruction.(Micah 6:8,Mark 13:13,Proverbs 18:12,John 3:16)
Jehovah is LOVE.Jehovah is salvation.(that's what Jesus' very name means,whom he used as agent in the salvation of his loved children).Jehovah means" he causes to become" and that he has,and that he will continue to do!
Neva forget that we have as high priest someone who has been tempted in every way just like we have been,who has suffered huge atrocities etc.None of us can know every minute detail ..and the bible even talks about "new scrolls" that will be opened..so our eyes and hearts and minds should be focused on the kingdom to come and not any status or wealth or distracting focus that this world has to offer,for it is passing away.
1 John 2:15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.
God's will is for us to follow in Christ's footsteps by living for the kingdom and for the exaltation of Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.
Orthodox Christians say:
2 Corintians 5:8:we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
So their reasoning is that death is nothing but the separation of the soul from the body(just like Satan's lie..no one ever REALLY dies!) so the resurrection MUST BE just a rejoining of the two.
Ok..this answer is from a yahoo message board from a JW I 'm assuming ..anyway,here it is(MUCH better than anything I could've said):
At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.
When would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” He added, , “ the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.
This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.
Gotta love some good ol' logic!After all,we know the dead are described as sleeping and having no thoughts at all,which would be impossible were they alive somewhere.It is of utmost importance to recognize corresponding texts to exegete those that seem to state something so clearly..they MUST be used with others,the succint majority!The bible also points out that God made this earth "even to be inhabited" and flesh(which doesn't inhabit the heavens) will be praising his holy name forever on a cleansed perfected earth.
Even when the dead are dead,he sees them AS THOUGH they are alive.He has a book of remembrance,which isn't reconcilable with the immortal soul doctrine.(Just one of MANY things that aren't!)Also,if the resurrection is just a "rejoining" of soul and body,why is it even happening..if the souls are in their destinies why is there a need for this and why is there a future judgment if one has already occurred?
Romans 8:18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
And what expectation can this creation anticipate,as Heavenly Jerusalem descends from the heavens over the earth for the benefit of mankind?Well,obviously we can expect untold benefits and blessings that Adam and Eve could've had for an eternity had they never sinned.
Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
I believe those nations will be on earth,enjoying the "trees of life,with leaves that heal" and "rivers of waters of life".
Genesis 2:9:And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden
Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.
So the bride,the anointed,urge all those wishing to live forever in a paradise on earth to take life's water free!How awesome is that?!
Reminds us of this:
John 4:13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”
God did not put it into the hearts of men to desire peace on earth and love for nature and animals etc..only to have us think our only hope is one in the heavens!If you feel that peace on earth with no more sickness and death,with blessings unimaginable sounds like a good thing,then that is because your creator gave you those ideals and hopes.Ones that he can fulfill.
Revelation 5:10: and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings on the earth
Psalms 45:16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons,Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.
So what this says to me,those who were Jesus's forefathers (Abraham ,David etc) will be appointed in powerful positions right here!
All one gargantuan and benevolent theocratic organization,as God is a God of order and peace and not of disarray.
And when will these things occur?Well,it has to be soon.In the bible,Jehovah always destroyed wicked cities and people at the peak of their wickedness and folks,things couldn't get much worse.If ya don't think so,look at how television or schoolchildren have changed JUST SINCE the 50's.BIG difference!Huge!
And I am quite sure if you're on the internet much at all,you have heard about a lil somethin called the New World Order.Without getting into it too much,I would like to point out that it correlates with the tower of Babel.Jesus compared our days to those days so I think we are living in VERY significant times!
In the book of Daniel,chapters 2 and 7,we are told through visions that Daniel interpreted by means of God's holy spirit,the succession of world powers that would ensue upon this earth.They were Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medo-Persia,Greece,Rome and then lastly,the Anglo-American!And that is the last one!The book of revelation lets us know that this last one will remain "a short time",so we're nearly there folks!What will happen?Well,I won't get into the destruction of false religion and the cries of "Peace and Security!" etc,but there will certainly be tribulation like we have NEVER known,and there will never be anything like it ever again..Sounds abysmal and frightening,BUT afterward,BLESSINGS!
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
And I think we all know what kind of kingdom that will be and what kind of king it will have!So if we endure to the end in the love and worship of Jehovah and the veneration and recognition of our Lord and savior,Jesus Christ,our hearts should swell with the hope ahead!
Romans 15:4: For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope
The bible lets us know to seek knowledge,righteousness,meekness,love,fine works,etc..and we will inherit many blessings.Let us not give up and may we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God Almighty.All those who do will be exalted and all those who don't will suffer humiliation and ultimately,destruction.(Micah 6:8,Mark 13:13,Proverbs 18:12,John 3:16)
Jehovah is LOVE.Jehovah is salvation.(that's what Jesus' very name means,whom he used as agent in the salvation of his loved children).Jehovah means" he causes to become" and that he has,and that he will continue to do!
Neva forget that we have as high priest someone who has been tempted in every way just like we have been,who has suffered huge atrocities etc.None of us can know every minute detail ..and the bible even talks about "new scrolls" that will be opened..so our eyes and hearts and minds should be focused on the kingdom to come and not any status or wealth or distracting focus that this world has to offer,for it is passing away.
1 John 2:15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.
God's will is for us to follow in Christ's footsteps by living for the kingdom and for the exaltation of Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.
Tuesday, March 31, 2009
Christmas
How bringing our holy Lord's name into something THIS disgusting,repulsive and demonic is acceptable to so many who claim to be Christian is BEYOND ME.The times for such willful ignorance and trying to wrap disgusting things in pretty packages is OVER.Quit touching the unclean thing.Be no part of the world.You can't drink from the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons.Satan keeps disguising himself as an angel of light and too many are buying it.Bringing Christ's name into this unabashed filth is UNACCEPTABLE imo.
Oh and another point,do you think there is a POSSIBILITY that Jehovah had to emphasize his being ONE because of the triune gods people worshipped all through history?Do you think it is POSSIBLE that he may,in fact,be one as opposed to triune,which means three?Unless you think God is deceptive(and he's not!),he is ,in fact,one,not three in one,because he never said he was three in one or even gave a hint that he might be!Let's face it..the bible is HUGE..certainly large enough for him to have somewhere stated his triunity if it were so because,again,he loves to be truthful and clear about who he is so that we may worship him in truth.He is love,after all.And those who say that the holy spirit reveals his triunity and not the bible so much(yes I've been told this) then how come Jehovah,through that SAME holy spirit, wouldn't reveal it in the bible?And if it was,there certainly would've been no need for a creed that redefined son of God into true God from true God.After all,that's two true Gods.And we know Jehovah is THE SOLE true God,for his son Jesus told us so.As if Jehovah hadn't already.One means one.Son means son.And the trinity is lie.
Trinity stupidity(this time it's MY stupidity)
As will become obvious,I wrote this blog before I disassociated from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I am cutting down on youtube witnessing.I thought if I stated it in a blog then I wouldn't go back on it.I would never want to repel anyone with my sometimes sarcastic nature or bold way of refuting the trinity or hell,the two lies I hate the most,so for the most part,I will stop.I've yet to experience one single person who was willing to reason or say "wow..that's a good point" unless they already believe like I do anyway.In the field ministry,which I have abandoned for years now as an inactive Jw,ppl were much more willing to reason and even study ,usually until someone's opposition would get to them.I can't even imagine being a trinitarian..I would have to scratch my head the whole time I prayed and redefine too many words and twist too many scriptures..it would be madness!I remember asking my pappaw who was a charismatic baptist preacher when I was a little girl why Jesus was God if he was God's son and he told me to just have faith.I remember showing him john 3:16 and saying something like "look Pappaw he sent his son and he says those not believing will die..will they die or will they burn forever?"..Even as a child,I understood these two simple truths and the way my pappaw would sweat and get all hyped up while he preached about hell etc..it scared me.I thought he would have a heart attack and I loved him more than anything.He was like a father to me.I still have and use his KJV that he left me..He had been friends with some Jehovah's witnesses who came and ate dinner with him and my mammaw on occasion and he loved JW's.I also discovered some very telling marks by pen in his bible.They were the ones about Jesus birth and the star leading the wise men(maybe he was contemplating the Christmas star and how it might not be a good thing?),Matthew 10:28 about the soul being destroyed along with the body,1 corinthians 14:27,28 about speaking in tongues,1 corinthians 15:27,28(which disproves the trinity),and rev 21 about the new heaven and the new earth.There were many more marked,but those are just a few..I basically think the JW's may have gotten to him,in a good way.There certainly was never a more selfless man..I remember one time he told me to open a drawer he had in his bedroom and it was full of dollar bills..there must've been AT least a hundred of them..he had been putting them in there when he had spare money just to one day see me smile about it.I wasted it all on babydolls and candy bars and Dr. Pepper and junk lol..Anyway,I pray for him a lot and hope to see him in the resurrection,him and my mammaw both,who was equally loving and selfless..Before she died,she and I used to joke about paradise and heaven.I told her she could watch me playing with polar bears and koalas and enjoying the beaches while she floated on a cloud in heaven.She admitted peace on earth would be wonderful but she said she was tired of toiling and didn't want to restore the earth or build houses lol...She did listen to the kingdom melodies cd that I gave her sometimes before she would go to sleep though..she liked the one about Ruth and Naomi.She used to ask me to sing it for her sometimes,which I'm sure she soon regretted as I am no Aguilera.Her favorite scripture was John 1:1 and she COULD NOT get past it.I'm not even sure she could've defined the trinity the right way to be honest..I mean who WOULDN'T be confused by such nonsense?
"I don't have three Gods just one!Three people who are each God but just one!"
umm..ObKb
And THE single MOST amazing thing..if you confess that Jesus is God's son and not God the son,in an orthodox Christian's mind,you will BURN baby BURN..and not just for a few minutes,or a few hours,or a few days,but FOR A LITERAL ETERNITY.Because apparently they think God is a maniac and the new heavens and new earth will definitely need a place of torment beneath em to keep em holy.As if someone who is voluntarily good can't be good without that kinda threat to their souls !SOOO frustrating.It blasphemes the holy and good name of God and it makes me angry.God is love.Those are three words that traditionalists need to meditate upon in a SERIOUS manner.Of course God has wrath for sin.Of course there can be no unholy unrepentant unloving rebellious sinner in the kingdom of God..that's why he will exterminate like pests any one like that.He doesn't wanna see it,much less hear it screaming for ever.
This is a schizophrenic sarcastic retarded "poem" I compiled and who knows who is speaking when..it's as confusing as revelation lol..if you aren't in the mood you may roll your eyes and close the page..anyways................
If he's one how is he three
If he's three how is he one
Stop lying mathematically
and redefining son
If he's greater how's he equal
If he's God,how'd he die?
If a movie has a sequel
does it come around the same time?
If he can't be likened to man how is he a man?
If he's omniscient how in the world can
he not know the day nor the revelation,in 1:1
If God can't have a father how is he a son?
If he's a spirit how is he still flesh?
And how he learned obedience is anyone's guess
Why did he have to be given everything?
God should not have to be given a thing!
Have you ever heard of anyone 200 percent?
Well now you have and don't ask why just have faith in it
When you hear "brought forth" "beginning" and "firstborn"
Be sure to redefine those simple little terms
Or else you'll burn forever with the simple little worms
Remember now that son doesn't mean what it always does
God is different you see and three it now means one
The holy spirit is conspicuously absent in all the visions of us
But don't ask anyone why..just walk by faith and trust.
God is "true God from true God" and it doesn't have to make sense
Later we'll add another and still say we're monotheists.
If there seems to be proof the trinity is bogus,remember the phrase "human nature"
and preach about hell and locusts and maybe noone will notice the paper
That the words "son and greater and dead and tempted and possessed" are written upon
Maybe distract a truth seeker with lies about hell and Jesus worship songs!
Heir,agent,and,again,son they don't mean a thing
Pay more attention to John 1:1 and stop it when you think!
And lest you start imagining that Jesus has a God more great
Turn right now and read on repeat John 20:28
And when Jesus is called God it means he is Jehovah see
And don't pretend there is such a thing as Hebrew law of agency.
When angels are called gods and kings are worshiped it has to be ignored!
Pretend it didn't happen and say Jesus has to be God!
And if a JW ever knocks on your door
they preach a different Jesus so their gospel is abhorred!
They say Jesus is God's own son
That he's king and messiah so you should run!
And if they tell you Jesus really died then they are lying for he is God!
if they tell you Jesus was really tempted they are lying for he is God!
If they tell you Jesus was REALLY a man on earth then they are lying for he is God!
Who cares what the bible says..texts can be twisted or blown off
Tradition and philosophy are the bee's knees
And Christmas is my favorite day,goodbye JW freaks!
Ya have so much to learn!
Don't ask me questions ya heretic.Burn baby burn!
I burned my Beduhn book I thought he was a scholar
If I ever see him around I'll choke him by the collar
He said the NWT was reliable and sound
What an idiot Satan wrote that book I've found
John 1:1 John 20:28 John 8:58..how many texts you willing to shun
To keep believing Jesus is the son of God and not God the son!!
haha,had to vent.I know it's muddled and childish but so am I sometimes ;-/.
I saw this as a comment on a youtube video..I don't know who made it..I forgot but I thought it was funny:
Jesus : My Father greater than i
Christians: Jesus and God are equal
Jesus : I can of myself do nothing
Christians : Jesus is as sovereign and as powerful as God
Jesus : I do not know of the Hour
Christians : Jesus is all knowing
Jesus : why do you call me good...?
Christians : Okay we will call you God then
Now I'll add a few of my own:
Jesus:Don't call me good.No one is good but one,God
Christians:Jesus is good therefore he has to be God.
Jesus:I have a God.
Christians:Jesus is that God he has.
Jesus:my will is different than God's on occasion
Christians:One person of a godhead had a different will than at least 1/3 of the godhead because he was 100 percent man as well remember..don't forget that that human limitation absolutely hindered that Almightiness on occasion.Cause remember if you are 100 percent God as well as 100 percent man,not only isn't it a fairy tale,but human natures can beat God natures sometimes apparently.It HAS to be that way to fit this pesky creed that spells out S.A.L.V.A.T.I.O.N.After all,they're all coequal. and consubstantial,which the bible is REAL clear about.
Jesus:I can do nothing of my own initiative but only what I behold my father doing.
Christians:hmm..he must be God.
Jews:he is making himself equal to God!
Christians:better believe those Jews!After all,they said he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath so they're always right!
Thomas:My Lord and my God!
Christians:God's agents and representatives and mighty beings have NEVER been called gods or God so Jesus is Jehovah!
Peter:you are the Christ,son of the living God
Christians:he meant that Jesus was God ya see
Disciples:puzzled that Jesus could do what they thought only God could do
Christians:see...they knew he was God!
Kellie:Jesus died
trinitarian:umm..one of his two natures died,but he wasn't really dead
Kellie:Where's your atonement
trinitarian:Jesus died
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:he did but he didn't
Kellie:Oh I see...makes PERFECT sense.
more ranting :-/
Yep I've heard one too many times that the worship of Jesus proves he is God.
Imagine I'm a big boss of a big company.I hire someone first to come in and do everything for me with my direction and supervision of course.I'm behind the scenes as the person I hired first hires others and accomplishes assigned tasks by my standards and appointment.Do I ever stop being boss?Does the person I use become me?Do I stop the other employees from revering him the same they revere me?Do they stop revering me?Do they forget my name because he exists?Do I stop appreciating and needing them and wanting their appreciation and reverence.?Do I stop being the one with the rewards ,the paychecks,the power to fire and hire?If the first person I hired understood that I was the BEST BOSS IN THE WORLD and he ,in fact,was the best employee in the world,do you really think he would forget everything I have given him or give me credit for his promotions and abundance?Again,does he BECOME ME because he does the things I tell him to do and reflects my personality and ways of doing things because not only does he appreciate and love me,but he knows that I know best.And when he behaves as I tell him to behave and represents me somewhere as coming in my name,are those people he goes to on my behalf to assume he IS me?What if he says "She is greater than me!" would you still have the right to assume he is me and I am him?Would this hold up logically?Is it possible to have more than one boss?More than one head over you?
Who glorified Jesus?
Why in the world can't Jesus be Proskeneo'd alongside his father as appointed heavenly king if even earthly kings were proskeneo'd along with Jehovah in the OT as ones who Jah gave glory to and can't it be in reconizance of not only the ones glorified BY JAH but also to the one who glorified them?And isn't this in fact stated FOR US In the bible that all things are FOR God's glory,as the honoring of his most beloved son absolutely IS?If Jehovah gave Jesus his rightful inheritances and glory as a mighty celestial being exalted to his right hand to defeat armies of evil at Armageddon and usher in a new heavens and a new earth,then NO ONE should have a problem with honoring this rightful powerful king without this rightful powerful king becoming the one who gave him his rights and power just because they BOTH receive honor and proskeneo together..I mean,c'mon!this is something earthly flawed unholy kings appointed by Jah received so how much more the flawless extraordinary faithful and true Lamb?Get over your prejudices and inferences and assumptions.Your traditions and creeds and preachers.Your refusal to exegete passages around the truth that no one who is God's son and agent and representative and servant can be God.
And today I get an "F" in English for my run ons and grammatical issues.And an "F" in creative writing for an amateurish "poem".And an "F" from trinitarians in overall presentation.And an "F" from Athanasius for caring more about what Jesus said than his creed.And an "F" from those weeping and gnashing their teeth ,or assuming I will be soon.Shame on all of you who have exploited JW's for their Armageddonal depictions of destruction in the fear inspiring battle,when you think anyone who isn't a trinitarian will burn alive for an eternity.Hypocrite.
I am cutting down on youtube witnessing.I thought if I stated it in a blog then I wouldn't go back on it.I would never want to repel anyone with my sometimes sarcastic nature or bold way of refuting the trinity or hell,the two lies I hate the most,so for the most part,I will stop.I've yet to experience one single person who was willing to reason or say "wow..that's a good point" unless they already believe like I do anyway.In the field ministry,which I have abandoned for years now as an inactive Jw,ppl were much more willing to reason and even study ,usually until someone's opposition would get to them.I can't even imagine being a trinitarian..I would have to scratch my head the whole time I prayed and redefine too many words and twist too many scriptures..it would be madness!I remember asking my pappaw who was a charismatic baptist preacher when I was a little girl why Jesus was God if he was God's son and he told me to just have faith.I remember showing him john 3:16 and saying something like "look Pappaw he sent his son and he says those not believing will die..will they die or will they burn forever?"..Even as a child,I understood these two simple truths and the way my pappaw would sweat and get all hyped up while he preached about hell etc..it scared me.I thought he would have a heart attack and I loved him more than anything.He was like a father to me.I still have and use his KJV that he left me..He had been friends with some Jehovah's witnesses who came and ate dinner with him and my mammaw on occasion and he loved JW's.I also discovered some very telling marks by pen in his bible.They were the ones about Jesus birth and the star leading the wise men(maybe he was contemplating the Christmas star and how it might not be a good thing?),Matthew 10:28 about the soul being destroyed along with the body,1 corinthians 14:27,28 about speaking in tongues,1 corinthians 15:27,28(which disproves the trinity),and rev 21 about the new heaven and the new earth.There were many more marked,but those are just a few..I basically think the JW's may have gotten to him,in a good way.There certainly was never a more selfless man..I remember one time he told me to open a drawer he had in his bedroom and it was full of dollar bills..there must've been AT least a hundred of them..he had been putting them in there when he had spare money just to one day see me smile about it.I wasted it all on babydolls and candy bars and Dr. Pepper and junk lol..Anyway,I pray for him a lot and hope to see him in the resurrection,him and my mammaw both,who was equally loving and selfless..Before she died,she and I used to joke about paradise and heaven.I told her she could watch me playing with polar bears and koalas and enjoying the beaches while she floated on a cloud in heaven.She admitted peace on earth would be wonderful but she said she was tired of toiling and didn't want to restore the earth or build houses lol...She did listen to the kingdom melodies cd that I gave her sometimes before she would go to sleep though..she liked the one about Ruth and Naomi.She used to ask me to sing it for her sometimes,which I'm sure she soon regretted as I am no Aguilera.Her favorite scripture was John 1:1 and she COULD NOT get past it.I'm not even sure she could've defined the trinity the right way to be honest..I mean who WOULDN'T be confused by such nonsense?
"I don't have three Gods just one!Three people who are each God but just one!"
umm..ObKb
And THE single MOST amazing thing..if you confess that Jesus is God's son and not God the son,in an orthodox Christian's mind,you will BURN baby BURN..and not just for a few minutes,or a few hours,or a few days,but FOR A LITERAL ETERNITY.Because apparently they think God is a maniac and the new heavens and new earth will definitely need a place of torment beneath em to keep em holy.As if someone who is voluntarily good can't be good without that kinda threat to their souls !SOOO frustrating.It blasphemes the holy and good name of God and it makes me angry.God is love.Those are three words that traditionalists need to meditate upon in a SERIOUS manner.Of course God has wrath for sin.Of course there can be no unholy unrepentant unloving rebellious sinner in the kingdom of God..that's why he will exterminate like pests any one like that.He doesn't wanna see it,much less hear it screaming for ever.
This is a schizophrenic sarcastic retarded "poem" I compiled and who knows who is speaking when..it's as confusing as revelation lol..if you aren't in the mood you may roll your eyes and close the page..anyways................
If he's one how is he three
If he's three how is he one
Stop lying mathematically
and redefining son
If he's greater how's he equal
If he's God,how'd he die?
If a movie has a sequel
does it come around the same time?
If he can't be likened to man how is he a man?
If he's omniscient how in the world can
he not know the day nor the revelation,in 1:1
If God can't have a father how is he a son?
If he's a spirit how is he still flesh?
And how he learned obedience is anyone's guess
Why did he have to be given everything?
God should not have to be given a thing!
Have you ever heard of anyone 200 percent?
Well now you have and don't ask why just have faith in it
When you hear "brought forth" "beginning" and "firstborn"
Be sure to redefine those simple little terms
Or else you'll burn forever with the simple little worms
Remember now that son doesn't mean what it always does
God is different you see and three it now means one
The holy spirit is conspicuously absent in all the visions of us
But don't ask anyone why..just walk by faith and trust.
God is "true God from true God" and it doesn't have to make sense
Later we'll add another and still say we're monotheists.
If there seems to be proof the trinity is bogus,remember the phrase "human nature"
and preach about hell and locusts and maybe noone will notice the paper
That the words "son and greater and dead and tempted and possessed" are written upon
Maybe distract a truth seeker with lies about hell and Jesus worship songs!
Heir,agent,and,again,son they don't mean a thing
Pay more attention to John 1:1 and stop it when you think!
And lest you start imagining that Jesus has a God more great
Turn right now and read on repeat John 20:28
And when Jesus is called God it means he is Jehovah see
And don't pretend there is such a thing as Hebrew law of agency.
When angels are called gods and kings are worshiped it has to be ignored!
Pretend it didn't happen and say Jesus has to be God!
And if a JW ever knocks on your door
they preach a different Jesus so their gospel is abhorred!
They say Jesus is God's own son
That he's king and messiah so you should run!
And if they tell you Jesus really died then they are lying for he is God!
if they tell you Jesus was really tempted they are lying for he is God!
If they tell you Jesus was REALLY a man on earth then they are lying for he is God!
Who cares what the bible says..texts can be twisted or blown off
Tradition and philosophy are the bee's knees
And Christmas is my favorite day,goodbye JW freaks!
Ya have so much to learn!
Don't ask me questions ya heretic.Burn baby burn!
I burned my Beduhn book I thought he was a scholar
If I ever see him around I'll choke him by the collar
He said the NWT was reliable and sound
What an idiot Satan wrote that book I've found
John 1:1 John 20:28 John 8:58..how many texts you willing to shun
To keep believing Jesus is the son of God and not God the son!!
haha,had to vent.I know it's muddled and childish but so am I sometimes ;-/.
I saw this as a comment on a youtube video..I don't know who made it..I forgot but I thought it was funny:
Jesus : My Father greater than i
Christians: Jesus and God are equal
Jesus : I can of myself do nothing
Christians : Jesus is as sovereign and as powerful as God
Jesus : I do not know of the Hour
Christians : Jesus is all knowing
Jesus : why do you call me good...?
Christians : Okay we will call you God then
Now I'll add a few of my own:
Jesus:Don't call me good.No one is good but one,God
Christians:Jesus is good therefore he has to be God.
Jesus:I have a God.
Christians:Jesus is that God he has.
Jesus:my will is different than God's on occasion
Christians:One person of a godhead had a different will than at least 1/3 of the godhead because he was 100 percent man as well remember..don't forget that that human limitation absolutely hindered that Almightiness on occasion.Cause remember if you are 100 percent God as well as 100 percent man,not only isn't it a fairy tale,but human natures can beat God natures sometimes apparently.It HAS to be that way to fit this pesky creed that spells out S.A.L.V.A.T.I.O.N.After all,they're all coequal. and consubstantial,which the bible is REAL clear about.
Jesus:I can do nothing of my own initiative but only what I behold my father doing.
Christians:hmm..he must be God.
Jews:he is making himself equal to God!
Christians:better believe those Jews!After all,they said he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath so they're always right!
Thomas:My Lord and my God!
Christians:God's agents and representatives and mighty beings have NEVER been called gods or God so Jesus is Jehovah!
Peter:you are the Christ,son of the living God
Christians:he meant that Jesus was God ya see
Disciples:puzzled that Jesus could do what they thought only God could do
Christians:see...they knew he was God!
Kellie:Jesus died
trinitarian:umm..one of his two natures died,but he wasn't really dead
Kellie:Where's your atonement
trinitarian:Jesus died
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:he did but he didn't
Kellie:Oh I see...makes PERFECT sense.
more ranting :-/
Yep I've heard one too many times that the worship of Jesus proves he is God.
Imagine I'm a big boss of a big company.I hire someone first to come in and do everything for me with my direction and supervision of course.I'm behind the scenes as the person I hired first hires others and accomplishes assigned tasks by my standards and appointment.Do I ever stop being boss?Does the person I use become me?Do I stop the other employees from revering him the same they revere me?Do they stop revering me?Do they forget my name because he exists?Do I stop appreciating and needing them and wanting their appreciation and reverence.?Do I stop being the one with the rewards ,the paychecks,the power to fire and hire?If the first person I hired understood that I was the BEST BOSS IN THE WORLD and he ,in fact,was the best employee in the world,do you really think he would forget everything I have given him or give me credit for his promotions and abundance?Again,does he BECOME ME because he does the things I tell him to do and reflects my personality and ways of doing things because not only does he appreciate and love me,but he knows that I know best.And when he behaves as I tell him to behave and represents me somewhere as coming in my name,are those people he goes to on my behalf to assume he IS me?What if he says "She is greater than me!" would you still have the right to assume he is me and I am him?Would this hold up logically?Is it possible to have more than one boss?More than one head over you?
Who glorified Jesus?
Why in the world can't Jesus be Proskeneo'd alongside his father as appointed heavenly king if even earthly kings were proskeneo'd along with Jehovah in the OT as ones who Jah gave glory to and can't it be in reconizance of not only the ones glorified BY JAH but also to the one who glorified them?And isn't this in fact stated FOR US In the bible that all things are FOR God's glory,as the honoring of his most beloved son absolutely IS?If Jehovah gave Jesus his rightful inheritances and glory as a mighty celestial being exalted to his right hand to defeat armies of evil at Armageddon and usher in a new heavens and a new earth,then NO ONE should have a problem with honoring this rightful powerful king without this rightful powerful king becoming the one who gave him his rights and power just because they BOTH receive honor and proskeneo together..I mean,c'mon!this is something earthly flawed unholy kings appointed by Jah received so how much more the flawless extraordinary faithful and true Lamb?Get over your prejudices and inferences and assumptions.Your traditions and creeds and preachers.Your refusal to exegete passages around the truth that no one who is God's son and agent and representative and servant can be God.
And today I get an "F" in English for my run ons and grammatical issues.And an "F" in creative writing for an amateurish "poem".And an "F" from trinitarians in overall presentation.And an "F" from Athanasius for caring more about what Jesus said than his creed.And an "F" from those weeping and gnashing their teeth ,or assuming I will be soon.Shame on all of you who have exploited JW's for their Armageddonal depictions of destruction in the fear inspiring battle,when you think anyone who isn't a trinitarian will burn alive for an eternity.Hypocrite.
Thursday, March 26, 2009
Trinity on trial(stolen from another blog)
I couldn't possibly do better than this to prove a VERY important point about Christ coming in the flesh and then REALLY dying so I am going to paste another person's blog here who put the trinity on trial..first a trinitarian,then Jesus..then there is a verdict..I hope trinitarians will prayerfully consider this evidence..
This is copied from these two blogs :
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra_05.html
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html
[Judge]: State your name
[Defendant]: Athanasius Trinitarian
[Crown Prosecutor]: Mr. Trinitarian, do you understand the charges?
Trinitarian: Yes, I most certainly do.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, do you believe Hades is the realm of the dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, however I do not personally believe this is where Christians go when they die but some of my brothers do believe this to be the case.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, do you believe it would be correct to say the inhabitants of Hades, the realm of the dead, are dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, obviously. It is the abode of the dead.
Crown: So they are not living but dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Could you describe for me the false antichrist teaching John the Beloved Apostle mentions in his first and second letters?
Trinitarian: Most certainly. Essentially, some false prophets were teaching that the "Christ" was a spiritual entity that appeared as a man incognito, that is, "the Christ entity" only appeared to be a man of flesh, but really was not himself that flesh that suffered and died. The "Christ" appeared in the body of the man named Jesus of Nazareth and at the point of his death, this spiritual entity - "Christ" - escaped from the cross. They believed the divine Christ could not suffer death because he was divine and so he left that humanity behind on the cross and the man Jesus was dead, but the spiritual persona that left him behind did not die. This is why John opens his first letter by indicating that the apostles had physically touched the Word of life, that is, they touched Christ’s flesh. And later John teaches them that anyone who does not confess Christ coming in the flesh is the spirit of the antichrist. John tells us at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 these men were deceivers teaching in the spirit of the antichrist and this is how you can test for these deceiving spirits.
Crown: Very insightful and interesting Mr. Trinitarian. You don't believe anything like that do you?
Trinitarian: Oh, goodness no. We Trinitarians all believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
Crown: Are you sure about that Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Let me ask you one more time Mr. Trinitarian, are you sure that you don't believe anything like what you just described?
Trinitarian: Totally sure.
Crown: So you really do believe the person Jesus truly died and was truly dead?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Can God die and be that dead flesh Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely not. Just as God cannot lie, God cannot die and be dead. God is life by definition. That is why Jesus took a human nature to himself - so he could die.
Crown: So you do believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh then Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: And you also believe this Jesus, the Son of God, was also God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, correct?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, did you not already testify that God could not be dead?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Well Mr. Trinitarian, now you are telling us that this person who died and was dead and buried was God. Aren't you contradicting yourself Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Oh goodness no. God did not die. The man Jesus died and was dead and buried.
Crown: So, the Son of God was two people Mr. Trinitarian? There was one person who was God the Son and another person who was a man named Jesus of Nazareth? And the person Jesus was dead but the person God the Son was not?
Trinitarian: No, no. You don't understand. Jesus Christ was one person who had two natures: one divine and one human. He was fully God and fully man.
Crown: So then Mr. Trinitarian, there is only one person then. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, absolutely.
Crown: Are you sure?
Trinitarian: No doubt about it.
Crown: So who was dead and buried in the tomb, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: I already told you. The man Jesus was dead in the tomb.
Crown: So God the Son was dead in the tomb then? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: No, God the Son was elsewhere. I don't know where he was personally. Some say he preached the gospel to the dead spirits in Hades and others say he was in heaven.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, now we are back to two people again. We have one person Jesus who is the dead man in the tomb and another person who is God the Son who is "elsewhere." Mr. Trinitarian, was Jesus Christ one person or two?
Trinitarian: One.
Crown: Well now Mr. Trinitarian, we seem to have a little problem here don't we? Where was that one person? Was the person Jesus dead in the tomb or not?
Trinitarian: Yes, he was in the tomb!
Crown: So God was that dead flesh in the tomb, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: No, God cannot die, or be dead! God the Son died in his humanity but he himself did not die.
Crown: What exactly do you mean by this phrase, "God died 'in his humanity'," Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: God the Son had two natures. He did not die in his divinity. He died in his humanity, in his human nature.
Crown: I see. So what you are saying is that a person didn't really die but a nature this person happened to possess died and was dead? In other words, the nature he owned died and was dead but he himself wasn't dead?
Trinitarian: No, no. Jesus died and was truly dead. You aren't going to catch me with your clever words. If I said a person didn't die then I would be admitting the person Jesus didn't die. No, Jesus died but he died in his humanity, not in his divinity.
Crown: I see. So a person did truly die and was truly dead?
Trinitarian: Yes. Death is separation of the spirit from the body. In that respect, Jesus died and was dead.
Crown: I see. So God the Son did not die but separated from the man Jesus who did die and was dead? That sounds awfully familiar Mr. Trinitarian. Where have we heard that idea before?
Trinitarian: One person, two natures.
Crown: Uh huuuh.... so is this person Jesus then the same person as "God the Son?"
Trinitarian: Yes.
Crown: So "God the Son" died correct?
Trinitarian: The human nature of God the Son died and was dead.
Crown: Ah! I see now Mr. Trinitarian. God's human nature died on the cross and was dead and buried. But the person God the Son did not himself die and was not that dead flesh but was "elsewhere." Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Correct.
Crown: So no one was really in the tomb then, right Mr. Trinitarian? It was just a body of flesh, a "human nature" laying in the tomb right Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Technically I suppose I would have to say God's body was in the tomb. The person God the Son was not in the tomb – He was elsewhere.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you open this Bible and read for me Matthew 12:40.
Trinitarian: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Crown: Was he mistaken, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus is never mistaken. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It sounds to me like he was preaching to the spirits in Hades there in the heart of the earth.
Crown: Is that where Hades is located, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus is never mistaken, so I would have to say, 'Yes.'
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, could you tell me precisely when the person, who is God the Son, left his human nature to preach in Hades, or describe that moment when he went "elsewhere"?
Trinitarian: Certainly. Death is defined in the Bible as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Spirit or soul, Mr. Trinitarian? Which one?
Trinitarian: Well that depends who you ask; some say they are different, some say they are the same thing. Essentially, the spiritual part of a man separates from his body at death.
Crown: I see. So this is why the person God the Son himself was elsewhere and not dead in the tomb? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So the person who is God the Son was not that dead flesh in the tomb? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: Are you sure?
Trinitarian: Yes, absolutely.
Crown: So essentially you are saying the person was not that flesh but lived in that flesh as if it were a possession of his, say, like living in a house he owns? Or like say, a tabernacle or tent? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Essentially, yes.
Crown: So then Mr. Trinitarian, nobody was really dead in the tomb correct? Otherwise we would have two persons on our hands, right Mr. Trinitarian? One in the tomb and one "elsewhere?"
Trinitarian: Essentially, yes.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, I have some passages for you to read for us. Would you read them please?
Trinitarian: Certainly, I love to read God's word. It is truth.
So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the one, and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to JESUS and saw that HE was already dead, they did not break HIS legs. But one of the soldiers pierced HIS side with a spear. (John 19:32-34).
Therefore order the tomb to be secured until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal HIM away, and tell the people, "HE has risen from the dead, and the last deception will be worse than the first." (Matthew 27:64).
Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb where no one had ever been laid. So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, as the tomb was close at hand, they laid JESUS there. (John 19:42).
And when he learned from the centurion that HE was dead, he granted the body to Joseph. And he bought a linen shroud, and taking HIM down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid HIM in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where HE was laid. (Mark 15:45-47).
So Mary Magdalene ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid HIM"... Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. They both ran but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying, and the napkin, which had been on HIS head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that HE must rise from the dead. Then the disciples went back to their homes. But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away My Lord, and I do not know where they have laid HIM." (John 20:2-14).
But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. HE is not here; for HE has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where HE lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples that HE has risen from the dead." (Matthew 28:5-7).
While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. And when they had assembled together with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sum of money to the soldiers and said, "Tell the people, 'His disciples came by night and stole HIM away while we were asleep.' " (Matthew 28:11-13 RSV).
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint HIM. ... And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek JESUS OF NAZARETH, WHO was crucified. HE has risen, HE is not here; see the place where they laid HIM." (Mark 16:1-6).
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, it appears the Bible indicates there was a person in the tomb! What do you say now, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: There was no person in the tomb. That is just a manner of speaking. Jesus is God the Son and God the Son is Jesus. God the Son himself was elsewhere and his dead body was in the tomb.
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, the Bible tells us there was a person in the tomb! And you disagree, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: There was no person in the tomb. That is just a manner of speaking. God cannot be dead and God the Son was elsewhere.
Crown: I see. So what you are saying then, and please do correct me if I am wrong here, is that since you define death as the separation of the soul or spirit, the spiritual person, from the body; so that the person Jesus, who is the selfsame one person as God the Son, went out from his body and went either to Hades and preached, or went "elsewhere," and therefore God the Son was not that dead flesh left hanging on the cross or dead in the tomb. Since this person is God the Son and God cannot die or be dead you insist God the Son must have been elsewhere and not dead in the tomb. Is that correct, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Well I wouldn't put it that way.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, I have some more passages for you to read for us. Would you read them please?
Trinitarian: Certainly, I love to read God's word.
And about the ninth hour JESUS cried with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken ME?" And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "This man is calling Elijah." And one of them immediately ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." And JESUS cried again with a loud voice and yielded up HIS spirit. (Matthew 27:46-50).
When JESUS had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and HE bowed HIS head and gave up HIS spirit. (John 19:30).
Then JESUS, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit MY spirit!" And having said this HE breathed HIS last. (Luke 23:46).
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, you say Jesus was the spirit who went up from his body, which he left behind dead on the cross but it appears the Bible indicates there that the spirit in Jesus went up from him and left him behind dead on the cross. It seems you teach exactly the reverse to what the Bible teaches. What do you say to that, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: That is just a manner of speaking and perspective. God the Son was elsewhere. Those passages show us that the spiritual person died and went elsewhere at death since death is defined as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, do you expect us to believe such a story? You say the spiritual person separated and left the dead body on the cross and the Bible says completely the opposite, that the spirit in that person was yielded up to God and he, that person, was left dead on the cross.
Trinitarian: That is just a manner of speaking and perspective. God the Son was elsewhere. Those passages show us that the spiritual person died and went elsewhere at death since death is defined as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you read for me John 1:1 in the Bible there?
Trinitarian: Most certainly.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
See, it's right there, Jesus is God.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you read for me John 1:14 in the Bible there?
Trinitarian: Most certainly.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Crown: Do you believe that, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Most certainly. It is the Word of God.
Crown: To clarify, the Son of God, the Word, and Jesus Christ are all the selfsame person. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So you believe the Word himself was a person then became that flesh that died and was dead in the tomb?
Trinitarian: Most certainly not. The Word was not himself that flesh itself. The Word did not change into flesh and leave his divine nature behind. Rather, the Word assumed flesh as a nature to his other divine nature and so he then had two natures.
Crown: I see. To clarify then, you are saying the Word did not really himself become that flesh that died and was dead in the tomb, but added that flesh as another nature to himself, a possession so to speak, so that he could live and die as a man. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, but I wouldn't put it that way.
Crown: So then to clarify again; the Word was God the Son and God the Son was not that flesh that was dead in the tomb. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So then to clarify again; the Word who was God was a person who was not that flesh that was dead in the tomb although he did live in that flesh, or with that flesh, and have that flesh as his nature while he was alive. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: Would you remind us again about the antichrist teaching John was discussing?
Trinitarian: Yes, certainly. Some false prophets were teaching that "the Christ" was a spiritual entity that appeared as a man incognito, that is, "the Christ entity" only appeared to be a man of flesh, but really was not himself that flesh that suffered and died. He appeared in the body of the man named Jesus and at the point of his death this spiritual entity "Christ" escaped from the cross. John tells us at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 these men were deceivers teaching in the spirit of the antichrist.
Crown: Sound familiar Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus was dead.
Crown: And the person God the Son, who was not dead, was elsewhere. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So what you are saying is that a living person was in the realm of the dead then. Mr. Trinitarian, I thought you indicated this person died and that anyone in Hades, the realm of the dead, was dead?
Trinitarian: Well no, not God the Son. God the Son cannot die and be dead. He did experience death in that he was in a dying body and separated from that dying body at the point of death. He was a living soul preaching in Hades the realm of the dead.
Crown: I see. So what we have then is a dead body in the tomb and a living person preaching to dead persons and as such God the Son is not dead but living. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Well if you say he went to Hades when he died, Yes. Otherwise, he was just "elsewhere," perhaps heaven.
Crown: I see. So Jesus who was God and is the Word of God was not himself that flesh that died then. Rather this person owned his flesh and his flesh died on him on the cross. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, the person was God the Son and God cannot die. His flesh was simply his human nature from which he separated at death.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, that will be all.
[Judge]: You may step down, Mr. Trinitarian. Thank you for your testimony.
PART 2:
Crown: Your Honor, I would like to call my next witness, 'the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, Savior of the World and Lord of all Creation.'
[The Courtroom]: A hush and many whisperings.
[Bailiff]: Place your hand on the Word of God and swear to tell the truth.
[Jesus]: I am the Word of God made flesh and I am the Truth and I swear by no one. My yes will be Yes and my no will be No.
[Bailiff]: Your honor?
[Judge]: I somehow think we can make an exception here. He did start the faith that forbade swearing by anything.
State your name.
Jesus: I am Lord Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Crown: Jesus, was John, the brother of James, your Apostle?
Jesus: Yes, he was one of my Twelve.
Crown: Jesus, was John your Apostle, filled with your Spirit?
Jesus: Yes, I shed forth the Spirit upon him when the Day of Pentecost had fully come.
Crown: Jesus, was John your Apostle, truthful in his writings concerning you?
Jesus: Yes, I lived in him in the Spirit and guided him in all his ways and I am Truth.
Crown: Jesus, would you read for me here what John said about you here in his opening remarks of his first letter and tell me if this was truthful please?
Jesus: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of life. The life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us.
Crown: Jesus, did John say that he seen you with his eyes and touched and held you, seeing that you are the Word of life made flesh?
Jesus: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Jesus, you were that human flesh he touched?
Jesus: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Jesus, were you yourself dead?
Jesus: Yes, you need not ask me that question. My testimony has been with you for over 2000 years.
Crown: Jesus, would you show us your testimony?
Jesus: Certainly. It is right here in my Revelation to John in chapter one, verse 18, "I was dead."
Crown: Jesus, were you that dead person hanging on the cross?
Jesus: Again, my testimony is with you through my faithful servants.
Crown: Jesus, would you show us your testimony to us?
Jesus: Certainly, my faithful servant Paul, who said, "I no longer live but Christ lives in me," wrote in his selfsame letter to the wayward Galatians, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.” For it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree." John's Gospel also shows you I was hanging dead on the cross and put dead into the tomb and it was me who was raised bodily from the dead. If I was not dead and was not raised from death, your faith is in vain.
Crown: Jesus, so you were hanging dead on the tree and became a curse?
Jesus: Yes, I am the Christ who died and was dead and buried and rose again from death.
Crown: Jesus, is it correct to say, that death lorded over you, had dominion over you?
Jesus: Yes, my faithful servant Paul, wrote such inspired words in his well-known letter to the Romans.
Crown: Jesus, did you give your soul over to death?
Jesus: Yes, the Son of man did not come to be served but to serve and give his soul as a ransom for many.
Crown: Jesus, where were you when you died?
Jesus: Have you not read the Scriptures? My people were not to go near and touch a dead soul. How do you suppose they could do this unless they touched a dead body?
Crown: You are too wise for me Lord. Jesus, tell us, were you a dead soul?
Jesus: I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life (his soul) for the sheep. For this reason the Father loved me, because I laid down my life (my soul), that I may take it up again
Crown: So to sum of Lord, you are the Word that was made flesh; you were that flesh that John handled and touched, you yourself were the flesh that died and was dead in the tomb. You were a dead soul. You, the person, you were dead. Did they crucify YOU Lord or a human nature? Were YOU dead or was a nature simply dead?
Jesus: Yes, I was not alive but dead. My Father raised me back to life after three days. My testimony is with you.
Crown: Jesus, just one more question. Who are you exactly?
Jesus: Who do you say that I am?
Crown: I will defer to Peter on that one my Lord. No more questions. Thank you for your testimony O Lord of All.
[Judge]: You may step down, Lord. Thank you for your testimony.
Crown: Your Honor, in light of the testimony of the Christ Himself, I wish to now make my final statement.
Mr. Trinitarian, the defendant, has testified that only the dead are in Hades and that the Antichrist deception was a spiritual entity leaving the body at the point of death; and that Jesus Christ was not himself that flesh and did not die and was therefore not that dead flesh and was not dead in the tomb; but was still a living spiritual entity alive in Hades, and in fact, has testified that Christ was himself, being a spiritual entity, was not himself that human flesh, but the spiritual entity that appeared incognito in a human body of flesh and left that body of flesh at the point of death, as that spiritual entity; and did not die and was not dead, but living elsewhere.
In light of his testimony, and the witness of our Lord himself, who is the Truth, has testified that he himself did indeed die, that he was that touchable flesh and did indeed become a curse and was indeed himself a dead person in the tomb, wherein he himself stated, and I quote, "I was dead;"
And whereas the defendant has testified that Jesus the Christ was not himself really and truly that flesh and did not really and truly suffer and die, and was not really and truly dead, but unassumed his body of flesh at the point of death, and as such escaping death, perpetuating the original lie of the Serpent of Eden, "You won't 'really' die;"
I therefore call for a judgment and verdict for the charge of promulgating the deception of the spirit of the antichrist, to wit, that the selfsame Jesus the Christ, testifies that he did himself come in flesh; while the defendant himself confesses, despite his opening words, that he truly believes and teaches in concept, the deception mentioned by John which he himself described, and as the defendant has fraudulently posed as a disciple of Christ, and who has in fact stolen the Lord away from the tomb in the minds of all God's children, I hereby move for a judgment on the matter on the charges of fraud, perjury and the sin of inciting the spirit of the Antichrist among the children of God, the illusion and deception of the Antichrist as described by John at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7, creating an image of our Brother and Lord, Jesus Christ, in the likeness and image of the Man of Lawlessness.
Your honor, the defendant admits he believes the Lord was not personally that body of flesh but merely owned it and lived in and with it and henceforth escaped death and went up from his body and left it behind and was not himself truly dead but living "elsewhere" and then returned to later retrieve it, which as you will carefully note is itself the antichrist teaching described by the defendant himself.
I call for a verdict of "Guilty."
[Judge]: Mr. Trinitarian, please stand.
In light of the testimony of Jesus Christ himself who truthfully tells that he himself was that dead flesh that was crucified dead, left dead hanging on the cross and buried in the tomb, I have no other choice but to pronounce you Guilty as charged.
I will reserve sentencing for the only Righteous Judge at which time you may appeal to a Higher court.
May God have mercy upon you.
This is copied from these two blogs :
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra_05.html
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html
[Judge]: State your name
[Defendant]: Athanasius Trinitarian
[Crown Prosecutor]: Mr. Trinitarian, do you understand the charges?
Trinitarian: Yes, I most certainly do.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, do you believe Hades is the realm of the dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, however I do not personally believe this is where Christians go when they die but some of my brothers do believe this to be the case.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, do you believe it would be correct to say the inhabitants of Hades, the realm of the dead, are dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, obviously. It is the abode of the dead.
Crown: So they are not living but dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Could you describe for me the false antichrist teaching John the Beloved Apostle mentions in his first and second letters?
Trinitarian: Most certainly. Essentially, some false prophets were teaching that the "Christ" was a spiritual entity that appeared as a man incognito, that is, "the Christ entity" only appeared to be a man of flesh, but really was not himself that flesh that suffered and died. The "Christ" appeared in the body of the man named Jesus of Nazareth and at the point of his death, this spiritual entity - "Christ" - escaped from the cross. They believed the divine Christ could not suffer death because he was divine and so he left that humanity behind on the cross and the man Jesus was dead, but the spiritual persona that left him behind did not die. This is why John opens his first letter by indicating that the apostles had physically touched the Word of life, that is, they touched Christ’s flesh. And later John teaches them that anyone who does not confess Christ coming in the flesh is the spirit of the antichrist. John tells us at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 these men were deceivers teaching in the spirit of the antichrist and this is how you can test for these deceiving spirits.
Crown: Very insightful and interesting Mr. Trinitarian. You don't believe anything like that do you?
Trinitarian: Oh, goodness no. We Trinitarians all believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
Crown: Are you sure about that Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Let me ask you one more time Mr. Trinitarian, are you sure that you don't believe anything like what you just described?
Trinitarian: Totally sure.
Crown: So you really do believe the person Jesus truly died and was truly dead?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Can God die and be that dead flesh Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely not. Just as God cannot lie, God cannot die and be dead. God is life by definition. That is why Jesus took a human nature to himself - so he could die.
Crown: So you do believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh then Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: And you also believe this Jesus, the Son of God, was also God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, correct?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, did you not already testify that God could not be dead?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Well Mr. Trinitarian, now you are telling us that this person who died and was dead and buried was God. Aren't you contradicting yourself Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Oh goodness no. God did not die. The man Jesus died and was dead and buried.
Crown: So, the Son of God was two people Mr. Trinitarian? There was one person who was God the Son and another person who was a man named Jesus of Nazareth? And the person Jesus was dead but the person God the Son was not?
Trinitarian: No, no. You don't understand. Jesus Christ was one person who had two natures: one divine and one human. He was fully God and fully man.
Crown: So then Mr. Trinitarian, there is only one person then. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, absolutely.
Crown: Are you sure?
Trinitarian: No doubt about it.
Crown: So who was dead and buried in the tomb, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: I already told you. The man Jesus was dead in the tomb.
Crown: So God the Son was dead in the tomb then? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: No, God the Son was elsewhere. I don't know where he was personally. Some say he preached the gospel to the dead spirits in Hades and others say he was in heaven.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, now we are back to two people again. We have one person Jesus who is the dead man in the tomb and another person who is God the Son who is "elsewhere." Mr. Trinitarian, was Jesus Christ one person or two?
Trinitarian: One.
Crown: Well now Mr. Trinitarian, we seem to have a little problem here don't we? Where was that one person? Was the person Jesus dead in the tomb or not?
Trinitarian: Yes, he was in the tomb!
Crown: So God was that dead flesh in the tomb, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: No, God cannot die, or be dead! God the Son died in his humanity but he himself did not die.
Crown: What exactly do you mean by this phrase, "God died 'in his humanity'," Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: God the Son had two natures. He did not die in his divinity. He died in his humanity, in his human nature.
Crown: I see. So what you are saying is that a person didn't really die but a nature this person happened to possess died and was dead? In other words, the nature he owned died and was dead but he himself wasn't dead?
Trinitarian: No, no. Jesus died and was truly dead. You aren't going to catch me with your clever words. If I said a person didn't die then I would be admitting the person Jesus didn't die. No, Jesus died but he died in his humanity, not in his divinity.
Crown: I see. So a person did truly die and was truly dead?
Trinitarian: Yes. Death is separation of the spirit from the body. In that respect, Jesus died and was dead.
Crown: I see. So God the Son did not die but separated from the man Jesus who did die and was dead? That sounds awfully familiar Mr. Trinitarian. Where have we heard that idea before?
Trinitarian: One person, two natures.
Crown: Uh huuuh.... so is this person Jesus then the same person as "God the Son?"
Trinitarian: Yes.
Crown: So "God the Son" died correct?
Trinitarian: The human nature of God the Son died and was dead.
Crown: Ah! I see now Mr. Trinitarian. God's human nature died on the cross and was dead and buried. But the person God the Son did not himself die and was not that dead flesh but was "elsewhere." Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Correct.
Crown: So no one was really in the tomb then, right Mr. Trinitarian? It was just a body of flesh, a "human nature" laying in the tomb right Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Technically I suppose I would have to say God's body was in the tomb. The person God the Son was not in the tomb – He was elsewhere.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you open this Bible and read for me Matthew 12:40.
Trinitarian: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Crown: Was he mistaken, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus is never mistaken. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It sounds to me like he was preaching to the spirits in Hades there in the heart of the earth.
Crown: Is that where Hades is located, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus is never mistaken, so I would have to say, 'Yes.'
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, could you tell me precisely when the person, who is God the Son, left his human nature to preach in Hades, or describe that moment when he went "elsewhere"?
Trinitarian: Certainly. Death is defined in the Bible as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Spirit or soul, Mr. Trinitarian? Which one?
Trinitarian: Well that depends who you ask; some say they are different, some say they are the same thing. Essentially, the spiritual part of a man separates from his body at death.
Crown: I see. So this is why the person God the Son himself was elsewhere and not dead in the tomb? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So the person who is God the Son was not that dead flesh in the tomb? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: Are you sure?
Trinitarian: Yes, absolutely.
Crown: So essentially you are saying the person was not that flesh but lived in that flesh as if it were a possession of his, say, like living in a house he owns? Or like say, a tabernacle or tent? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Essentially, yes.
Crown: So then Mr. Trinitarian, nobody was really dead in the tomb correct? Otherwise we would have two persons on our hands, right Mr. Trinitarian? One in the tomb and one "elsewhere?"
Trinitarian: Essentially, yes.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, I have some passages for you to read for us. Would you read them please?
Trinitarian: Certainly, I love to read God's word. It is truth.
So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the one, and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to JESUS and saw that HE was already dead, they did not break HIS legs. But one of the soldiers pierced HIS side with a spear. (John 19:32-34).
Therefore order the tomb to be secured until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal HIM away, and tell the people, "HE has risen from the dead, and the last deception will be worse than the first." (Matthew 27:64).
Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb where no one had ever been laid. So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, as the tomb was close at hand, they laid JESUS there. (John 19:42).
And when he learned from the centurion that HE was dead, he granted the body to Joseph. And he bought a linen shroud, and taking HIM down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid HIM in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where HE was laid. (Mark 15:45-47).
So Mary Magdalene ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid HIM"... Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. They both ran but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying, and the napkin, which had been on HIS head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that HE must rise from the dead. Then the disciples went back to their homes. But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away My Lord, and I do not know where they have laid HIM." (John 20:2-14).
But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. HE is not here; for HE has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where HE lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples that HE has risen from the dead." (Matthew 28:5-7).
While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. And when they had assembled together with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sum of money to the soldiers and said, "Tell the people, 'His disciples came by night and stole HIM away while we were asleep.' " (Matthew 28:11-13 RSV).
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint HIM. ... And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek JESUS OF NAZARETH, WHO was crucified. HE has risen, HE is not here; see the place where they laid HIM." (Mark 16:1-6).
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, it appears the Bible indicates there was a person in the tomb! What do you say now, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: There was no person in the tomb. That is just a manner of speaking. Jesus is God the Son and God the Son is Jesus. God the Son himself was elsewhere and his dead body was in the tomb.
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, the Bible tells us there was a person in the tomb! And you disagree, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: There was no person in the tomb. That is just a manner of speaking. God cannot be dead and God the Son was elsewhere.
Crown: I see. So what you are saying then, and please do correct me if I am wrong here, is that since you define death as the separation of the soul or spirit, the spiritual person, from the body; so that the person Jesus, who is the selfsame one person as God the Son, went out from his body and went either to Hades and preached, or went "elsewhere," and therefore God the Son was not that dead flesh left hanging on the cross or dead in the tomb. Since this person is God the Son and God cannot die or be dead you insist God the Son must have been elsewhere and not dead in the tomb. Is that correct, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Well I wouldn't put it that way.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, I have some more passages for you to read for us. Would you read them please?
Trinitarian: Certainly, I love to read God's word.
And about the ninth hour JESUS cried with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken ME?" And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "This man is calling Elijah." And one of them immediately ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." And JESUS cried again with a loud voice and yielded up HIS spirit. (Matthew 27:46-50).
When JESUS had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and HE bowed HIS head and gave up HIS spirit. (John 19:30).
Then JESUS, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit MY spirit!" And having said this HE breathed HIS last. (Luke 23:46).
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, you say Jesus was the spirit who went up from his body, which he left behind dead on the cross but it appears the Bible indicates there that the spirit in Jesus went up from him and left him behind dead on the cross. It seems you teach exactly the reverse to what the Bible teaches. What do you say to that, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: That is just a manner of speaking and perspective. God the Son was elsewhere. Those passages show us that the spiritual person died and went elsewhere at death since death is defined as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, do you expect us to believe such a story? You say the spiritual person separated and left the dead body on the cross and the Bible says completely the opposite, that the spirit in that person was yielded up to God and he, that person, was left dead on the cross.
Trinitarian: That is just a manner of speaking and perspective. God the Son was elsewhere. Those passages show us that the spiritual person died and went elsewhere at death since death is defined as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you read for me John 1:1 in the Bible there?
Trinitarian: Most certainly.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
See, it's right there, Jesus is God.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you read for me John 1:14 in the Bible there?
Trinitarian: Most certainly.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Crown: Do you believe that, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Most certainly. It is the Word of God.
Crown: To clarify, the Son of God, the Word, and Jesus Christ are all the selfsame person. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So you believe the Word himself was a person then became that flesh that died and was dead in the tomb?
Trinitarian: Most certainly not. The Word was not himself that flesh itself. The Word did not change into flesh and leave his divine nature behind. Rather, the Word assumed flesh as a nature to his other divine nature and so he then had two natures.
Crown: I see. To clarify then, you are saying the Word did not really himself become that flesh that died and was dead in the tomb, but added that flesh as another nature to himself, a possession so to speak, so that he could live and die as a man. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, but I wouldn't put it that way.
Crown: So then to clarify again; the Word was God the Son and God the Son was not that flesh that was dead in the tomb. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So then to clarify again; the Word who was God was a person who was not that flesh that was dead in the tomb although he did live in that flesh, or with that flesh, and have that flesh as his nature while he was alive. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: Would you remind us again about the antichrist teaching John was discussing?
Trinitarian: Yes, certainly. Some false prophets were teaching that "the Christ" was a spiritual entity that appeared as a man incognito, that is, "the Christ entity" only appeared to be a man of flesh, but really was not himself that flesh that suffered and died. He appeared in the body of the man named Jesus and at the point of his death this spiritual entity "Christ" escaped from the cross. John tells us at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 these men were deceivers teaching in the spirit of the antichrist.
Crown: Sound familiar Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus was dead.
Crown: And the person God the Son, who was not dead, was elsewhere. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So what you are saying is that a living person was in the realm of the dead then. Mr. Trinitarian, I thought you indicated this person died and that anyone in Hades, the realm of the dead, was dead?
Trinitarian: Well no, not God the Son. God the Son cannot die and be dead. He did experience death in that he was in a dying body and separated from that dying body at the point of death. He was a living soul preaching in Hades the realm of the dead.
Crown: I see. So what we have then is a dead body in the tomb and a living person preaching to dead persons and as such God the Son is not dead but living. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Well if you say he went to Hades when he died, Yes. Otherwise, he was just "elsewhere," perhaps heaven.
Crown: I see. So Jesus who was God and is the Word of God was not himself that flesh that died then. Rather this person owned his flesh and his flesh died on him on the cross. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, the person was God the Son and God cannot die. His flesh was simply his human nature from which he separated at death.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, that will be all.
[Judge]: You may step down, Mr. Trinitarian. Thank you for your testimony.
PART 2:
Crown: Your Honor, I would like to call my next witness, 'the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, Savior of the World and Lord of all Creation.'
[The Courtroom]: A hush and many whisperings.
[Bailiff]: Place your hand on the Word of God and swear to tell the truth.
[Jesus]: I am the Word of God made flesh and I am the Truth and I swear by no one. My yes will be Yes and my no will be No.
[Bailiff]: Your honor?
[Judge]: I somehow think we can make an exception here. He did start the faith that forbade swearing by anything.
State your name.
Jesus: I am Lord Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Crown: Jesus, was John, the brother of James, your Apostle?
Jesus: Yes, he was one of my Twelve.
Crown: Jesus, was John your Apostle, filled with your Spirit?
Jesus: Yes, I shed forth the Spirit upon him when the Day of Pentecost had fully come.
Crown: Jesus, was John your Apostle, truthful in his writings concerning you?
Jesus: Yes, I lived in him in the Spirit and guided him in all his ways and I am Truth.
Crown: Jesus, would you read for me here what John said about you here in his opening remarks of his first letter and tell me if this was truthful please?
Jesus: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of life. The life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us.
Crown: Jesus, did John say that he seen you with his eyes and touched and held you, seeing that you are the Word of life made flesh?
Jesus: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Jesus, you were that human flesh he touched?
Jesus: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Jesus, were you yourself dead?
Jesus: Yes, you need not ask me that question. My testimony has been with you for over 2000 years.
Crown: Jesus, would you show us your testimony?
Jesus: Certainly. It is right here in my Revelation to John in chapter one, verse 18, "I was dead."
Crown: Jesus, were you that dead person hanging on the cross?
Jesus: Again, my testimony is with you through my faithful servants.
Crown: Jesus, would you show us your testimony to us?
Jesus: Certainly, my faithful servant Paul, who said, "I no longer live but Christ lives in me," wrote in his selfsame letter to the wayward Galatians, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.” For it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree." John's Gospel also shows you I was hanging dead on the cross and put dead into the tomb and it was me who was raised bodily from the dead. If I was not dead and was not raised from death, your faith is in vain.
Crown: Jesus, so you were hanging dead on the tree and became a curse?
Jesus: Yes, I am the Christ who died and was dead and buried and rose again from death.
Crown: Jesus, is it correct to say, that death lorded over you, had dominion over you?
Jesus: Yes, my faithful servant Paul, wrote such inspired words in his well-known letter to the Romans.
Crown: Jesus, did you give your soul over to death?
Jesus: Yes, the Son of man did not come to be served but to serve and give his soul as a ransom for many.
Crown: Jesus, where were you when you died?
Jesus: Have you not read the Scriptures? My people were not to go near and touch a dead soul. How do you suppose they could do this unless they touched a dead body?
Crown: You are too wise for me Lord. Jesus, tell us, were you a dead soul?
Jesus: I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life (his soul) for the sheep. For this reason the Father loved me, because I laid down my life (my soul), that I may take it up again
Crown: So to sum of Lord, you are the Word that was made flesh; you were that flesh that John handled and touched, you yourself were the flesh that died and was dead in the tomb. You were a dead soul. You, the person, you were dead. Did they crucify YOU Lord or a human nature? Were YOU dead or was a nature simply dead?
Jesus: Yes, I was not alive but dead. My Father raised me back to life after three days. My testimony is with you.
Crown: Jesus, just one more question. Who are you exactly?
Jesus: Who do you say that I am?
Crown: I will defer to Peter on that one my Lord. No more questions. Thank you for your testimony O Lord of All.
[Judge]: You may step down, Lord. Thank you for your testimony.
Crown: Your Honor, in light of the testimony of the Christ Himself, I wish to now make my final statement.
Mr. Trinitarian, the defendant, has testified that only the dead are in Hades and that the Antichrist deception was a spiritual entity leaving the body at the point of death; and that Jesus Christ was not himself that flesh and did not die and was therefore not that dead flesh and was not dead in the tomb; but was still a living spiritual entity alive in Hades, and in fact, has testified that Christ was himself, being a spiritual entity, was not himself that human flesh, but the spiritual entity that appeared incognito in a human body of flesh and left that body of flesh at the point of death, as that spiritual entity; and did not die and was not dead, but living elsewhere.
In light of his testimony, and the witness of our Lord himself, who is the Truth, has testified that he himself did indeed die, that he was that touchable flesh and did indeed become a curse and was indeed himself a dead person in the tomb, wherein he himself stated, and I quote, "I was dead;"
And whereas the defendant has testified that Jesus the Christ was not himself really and truly that flesh and did not really and truly suffer and die, and was not really and truly dead, but unassumed his body of flesh at the point of death, and as such escaping death, perpetuating the original lie of the Serpent of Eden, "You won't 'really' die;"
I therefore call for a judgment and verdict for the charge of promulgating the deception of the spirit of the antichrist, to wit, that the selfsame Jesus the Christ, testifies that he did himself come in flesh; while the defendant himself confesses, despite his opening words, that he truly believes and teaches in concept, the deception mentioned by John which he himself described, and as the defendant has fraudulently posed as a disciple of Christ, and who has in fact stolen the Lord away from the tomb in the minds of all God's children, I hereby move for a judgment on the matter on the charges of fraud, perjury and the sin of inciting the spirit of the Antichrist among the children of God, the illusion and deception of the Antichrist as described by John at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7, creating an image of our Brother and Lord, Jesus Christ, in the likeness and image of the Man of Lawlessness.
Your honor, the defendant admits he believes the Lord was not personally that body of flesh but merely owned it and lived in and with it and henceforth escaped death and went up from his body and left it behind and was not himself truly dead but living "elsewhere" and then returned to later retrieve it, which as you will carefully note is itself the antichrist teaching described by the defendant himself.
I call for a verdict of "Guilty."
[Judge]: Mr. Trinitarian, please stand.
In light of the testimony of Jesus Christ himself who truthfully tells that he himself was that dead flesh that was crucified dead, left dead hanging on the cross and buried in the tomb, I have no other choice but to pronounce you Guilty as charged.
I will reserve sentencing for the only Righteous Judge at which time you may appeal to a Higher court.
May God have mercy upon you.
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
God,mankind's fall, and the kingdom
For the sincere seekers of "something more",for those recognizant of the fact that "it isn't up to mortal man even to direct his step"(Jer 10:23,17:9,10)) and that there is no peace where there is no God.(Is 48:17,18)For those who hate the evil in this world and cling or want to cling to something brighter cleaner richer and better.(ps 34:8)Jehovah is there for you.He is your father and he draws close to those drawing close to him.(James 4:8)He is the EPITOME of love and he desires your love.(1john 4:8,16)He sacrificed his own son so that we may live,a greater sacrifice cannot be fathomed(john 3:16).He is apparent in all the maginficent(to say the least) creation around you,from the intricacies of the simplest butterfly to the unbelievable complexities in a single cell to the the undeniable marvels of the human body.(rom 1:20,Ps 139:14)He doesn't cause us to be tempted or to suffer.(pr 27:11,james 1:13-15)He ALLOWS it for a PURPOSE and only temporarily.It hurts him very much.(gen 6:6)But his sovereignty and right to rule mankind as our benevolent loving creator has been challenged by someone who epitomizes evil.(John 8:44)Satan the devil,the father of the lie,who was one of heaven's most glorious angels before he became haughty and desired the worship Jehovah received for himself.(Ezekiel 28:11-19)Not only did he abandon and rebel against his father and creator but so did a third of all the angels in heaven.Man inherited sin and death from Adam,and the consequences are trying but we are never tempted beyond what we can bear.(1 cor 10:12-14) And are promised a future when there will be no more pain and death and chaos,if we only look ahead.And if Jesus Christ,the faithful and true most beloved and exceptional son of God,can endure the hideous suffering he did(which is easier to understand once you realize he REALLY is a son who can be tempted and not God himself)then we should be able to endure anything horrendous that may occur with our eyes on spiritual matters and a view to a future kingdom and peace.(matt 4:8-10,heb 5:7)God allows this chaos and madness because of that challenge of his sovereignty (Job 1:7-12,Proverbs 27:11)and aren't we now equipped with solid evidence that a world lying in the power of evil instead of good is not a world of peace and harmony and perfection.?(WAR.CRIME.SICKNESS.DEPRESSION.DEATH. ETC.)Like it WAS before Adam sinned and Satan became allowed (for a short time..remember 1000 yrs is like a day to Jehovah)to become "ruler of THIS world".(2 cor 4:4,rev 12:12).When all badness and evil has been destroyed,will anyone ever be able to question God's right to rule again,and the benefit for us and the angels of that rule?(the suffering now should leave an indelible mark of remembrance even into the distant future of the abysmal debaucheed conditions in a world without God's sovereignty being "all in all" 1 cor 15:28)Should we listen to ourselves instead of the designer OF ourselves?(Is 64:8)Now we have seen the effects of this world without Jehovah's intervention.He WILL intervene but till then we have death,sorrow,sickness,war,crime you name it.Have you learned anything yet?(ec 8:9,pr 3:5-6)Like that perhaps it doesn't belong to man to bring peace and happiness?Like perhaps we have a heavenly father who has every right to tell us how to live,while still maintaining our free will and individual personalities..?So does God want and require us to be obedient and to use our free will responsibly because he is selfish and wants to "lord it over" us?Umm,no.He knows we will never have peace or be benefitted in any good way if we don't heed him in all we do.That simple.Imagine if you had a rebellious child who you loved so much it hurt,but that child does drugs,goes to war,gets AIDS from being promiscuous,refuses to even acknowledge you at all(the scary possibilities are endless for the rebellious).How would you feel?And if you were a fantastic person who had the kind of advice and love that could have saved your child,wouldn't you be distressed if the child refused to believe it?And if you promised that child if they would only listen and obey you then there peace and life would NEVER end.That simply RECOGNIZING,loving and obeying you was all that is required to benefit extraordinarily superabundantly,for an eternity!(eph 3:20,micah 6:8)Wouldn't the child be a fool not to listen love and obey?Even powerful deception and temptation shouldn't make the child turn from such magnanimous promises.And if the child does decide to wise up and repent,what an extraordinary father to accept that child with open arms right back!(Luke 15,Is 1:18,19)As if nothing ever happened at all.Slate clean.Wouldn't such a remarkable empathetic and kind father move you to turn to him in your time of need,and thank him for his blessings and promise thereof?Do you ever marvel at his marvels of creation around you,even if you don't yet recognize that they ARE creations(IF you are an atheist)?The heavens the earth(minus the bad..he didn't cause that..He created the angels and people who abused their free will and BECAME evil) the animals the oceans,the mountains,the children.ETC..He made it all perfect,and will again.Without fail.I urge you if you don't believe this to not only prayerfully consider the bible,but to affirm for yourself its prophetic fulfillments and scientific accuracies etc with your own research..research of HIS side..because it is undeniable & tenable ..no more excuses for ignorance.He has spoken to us by means of prophets in the past,his son also,then his holy scripture now.And THAT is alive and exerts power,sharper than a two edged sword,able to pierce even to the dividing of soul and spirit,to discern thoughts and intentions(heb 4:12).YOU are loved.Will you love in return?
In summary,Jah allows suffering because it teaches us that a world not under his benevolent magnanimous rulership,by his appointed king,is tragic chaotic and death dealing.We have promise and hope laid out like a giant jewel in the bible for a future of absolute peace and eternal life.Jehovah is misrepresented as a mysterious triune(which is 3,not one..He however is ONE) sadist God by people who misinterpret symbolic texts(about "hellfire").But the truth(that those who refuse to live in line with his requirements for a peaceful righteous world must die,NOT burn alive forever) is in there if you sincerely dig and he will reveal it to you if you seek him diligently.We can have either eternal life or eternal death.Under fabulous conditions and remarkable ways and truths we have yet to know but that will soon be revealed.Give your loving generous merciful and holy heavenly father your love!His kingdom under his messiah's appointed rule will be something that as flawed unholy humans now we couldn't possibly fully comprehend but he provides many truths about what the faithful and true will inherit :)!Can anything be greater than forming a close relationship with your creator and learning truthful nuggets of gold about his sensational upcoming kingdom ?!It doesn't matter who you are or what you've done,if you are repentant and you are willing to love him like he loves you,in truth and in earnestness,you will be forgiven anything.!
I recommend reading the book of Job if you don't understand suffering,keeping in mind who is tempting and torturing,then who exactly is giving blessings afterward upon our endurance.
I also recommend reading Matthew for a preview of the kind of heavenly king we have who will be restoring us to health and perfection in the coming kingdom.One who indiscriminately loves,heals,teaches and gives life to all with faith.ALL those who worship in love and truth.He wants you to know him and to know him is to know his father.His God is someone we need and should know and love and worship and obey and thank etc ...Don't ignore him please..he pleads to you from inspired words of life and holiness..to embrace "the real" life and the kingdom to come.
If you are someone who thinks the bible is derived from ancient mythology,I recommend reading "the Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop(exhaustively researched) to help you understand how it all connects(the book isn't all about the bible/mythology connection,but it certainly explains it).Basically,mythology adopted and twisted prophecies Jehovah gave to his ancient peoples ,NOT the other way around.
Jehovah is too holy to find our fall from perfection and glory as acceptable.So he provided a propitiatory sacrifice,a loving and complete provision so that we sinners could live,regain vitality,enjoy blessings forever.
Jehovah is perfectly outstandigngly holy and that is why we had to have the sacrifice of his MOST beloved son to redeem our pathetic selves.Don't believe those who tell you that he gave his own life.God can't die.He had to watch his own unique child suffer untellable atrocities and then watch him be put to death for us.When Jesus told his disciples that there is no greater love than to give your life for another,he was letting them know how much he loved them and what they may,as martyrs ,have to do.But,clearly,it is even harder to watch your child die than to die yourself.Ask any mother or father which they'd prefer.So now Jesus,the son,is exalted because it PLEASES his father.Imagine watching your child suffer THAT...of course he has been rewarded and he deserves praise and glory and his inherited kingship!On Jehovah's scales of justice,a perfect son bought back what a perfect son had lost.We can have forgiveness from that ransom and we should be grateful from the bottom of our hearts and souls.Get to know Jesus and Jehovah through bible study.You can't say you wholeheartedly love anyone you don't come to know and continue to learn everything about.Of course you can love and appreciate them but you can't KNOW them like they want you to.We are commanded to read the word every day and night.It is rewarding,not burdensome.If you haven't already,experience it!Don't believe the anti-bible propaganda..examine the prophecies etc yourself!There is not a single other book or "god" in existence who can make the claims the ONE TRUE GOD and his word can!Down to the letter,it is accurate and trustworthy and will continue to prove to be.Which means we have a lot to look forward to if we are close to Jehovah :)
In summary,Jah allows suffering because it teaches us that a world not under his benevolent magnanimous rulership,by his appointed king,is tragic chaotic and death dealing.We have promise and hope laid out like a giant jewel in the bible for a future of absolute peace and eternal life.Jehovah is misrepresented as a mysterious triune(which is 3,not one..He however is ONE) sadist God by people who misinterpret symbolic texts(about "hellfire").But the truth(that those who refuse to live in line with his requirements for a peaceful righteous world must die,NOT burn alive forever) is in there if you sincerely dig and he will reveal it to you if you seek him diligently.We can have either eternal life or eternal death.Under fabulous conditions and remarkable ways and truths we have yet to know but that will soon be revealed.Give your loving generous merciful and holy heavenly father your love!His kingdom under his messiah's appointed rule will be something that as flawed unholy humans now we couldn't possibly fully comprehend but he provides many truths about what the faithful and true will inherit :)!Can anything be greater than forming a close relationship with your creator and learning truthful nuggets of gold about his sensational upcoming kingdom ?!It doesn't matter who you are or what you've done,if you are repentant and you are willing to love him like he loves you,in truth and in earnestness,you will be forgiven anything.!
I recommend reading the book of Job if you don't understand suffering,keeping in mind who is tempting and torturing,then who exactly is giving blessings afterward upon our endurance.
I also recommend reading Matthew for a preview of the kind of heavenly king we have who will be restoring us to health and perfection in the coming kingdom.One who indiscriminately loves,heals,teaches and gives life to all with faith.ALL those who worship in love and truth.He wants you to know him and to know him is to know his father.His God is someone we need and should know and love and worship and obey and thank etc ...Don't ignore him please..he pleads to you from inspired words of life and holiness..to embrace "the real" life and the kingdom to come.
If you are someone who thinks the bible is derived from ancient mythology,I recommend reading "the Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop(exhaustively researched) to help you understand how it all connects(the book isn't all about the bible/mythology connection,but it certainly explains it).Basically,mythology adopted and twisted prophecies Jehovah gave to his ancient peoples ,NOT the other way around.
Jehovah is too holy to find our fall from perfection and glory as acceptable.So he provided a propitiatory sacrifice,a loving and complete provision so that we sinners could live,regain vitality,enjoy blessings forever.
Jehovah is perfectly outstandigngly holy and that is why we had to have the sacrifice of his MOST beloved son to redeem our pathetic selves.Don't believe those who tell you that he gave his own life.God can't die.He had to watch his own unique child suffer untellable atrocities and then watch him be put to death for us.When Jesus told his disciples that there is no greater love than to give your life for another,he was letting them know how much he loved them and what they may,as martyrs ,have to do.But,clearly,it is even harder to watch your child die than to die yourself.Ask any mother or father which they'd prefer.So now Jesus,the son,is exalted because it PLEASES his father.Imagine watching your child suffer THAT...of course he has been rewarded and he deserves praise and glory and his inherited kingship!On Jehovah's scales of justice,a perfect son bought back what a perfect son had lost.We can have forgiveness from that ransom and we should be grateful from the bottom of our hearts and souls.Get to know Jesus and Jehovah through bible study.You can't say you wholeheartedly love anyone you don't come to know and continue to learn everything about.Of course you can love and appreciate them but you can't KNOW them like they want you to.We are commanded to read the word every day and night.It is rewarding,not burdensome.If you haven't already,experience it!Don't believe the anti-bible propaganda..examine the prophecies etc yourself!There is not a single other book or "god" in existence who can make the claims the ONE TRUE GOD and his word can!Down to the letter,it is accurate and trustworthy and will continue to prove to be.Which means we have a lot to look forward to if we are close to Jehovah :)
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