Thursday, May 28, 2009
Monday, May 25, 2009
Who is Jesus?(by Patrick Navas)
This is a portion of an essay written by Patrick Navas,author of "Divine Truth or Human Tradition"..just wanted to share.He isn't a Jehovah's Witness.
Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Messiah
Although controversy still rages in religious circles regarding the true identity of Jesus, in the first century, the original, foundational truth of the gospel was that Jesus of Nazareth was the long-awaited “Christ” or “Messiah”—God’s “beloved” and “anointed” Son. The sense of the term Messiah (‘anointed one’) is brought out in Jesus’ own words regarding himself as “the one whom the Father consecrated and sent forth into the world,” and when God himself testified of Jesus during his baptism, “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” He is, according to Scripture, the one whom God “sent” and the one on whom God, the Father, has “set his seal.” —John 10:36; Matt. 3:16; John 3:34; 5:30; 7:29; 6:27
Faith in, and confession of, Jesus as “the Christ” is essential, the true foundation of Christian faith; so much that the faith itself was, in the minds’ of the apostles, directly tied to one’s being “born of God”—a truth delivered by way of direct revelation from the Father. This was demonstrated in Matthew’s Gospel, when Jesus pointedly asked his disciples, “who do you say that I am?”—to which the disciple Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” In turn, Jesus responded, “Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” —Matt. 16:13-18
In perfect harmony, at the end of his Gospel account, the apostle John summarized the purpose of his own writings in this way:
“These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name.” —John 20:31
Unlike the doctrinal formulations of the historic “creeds,” the disclosure of Jesus’ identity as “the Christ” and “Son of God” is neither an interpretation nor a theological inference, but a divinely-revealed truth upon which the gospel stands. This is the true article of the Christian faith, resting not on the traditions of men but on the testimony of God Himself. As the apostle John wrote in his first epistle:
“If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is surely greater; for this is the testimony of God, that He has borne witness to His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to His Son.” —1 John 5:9-10
The apostle likewise assured those whom he was writing to in the first century:
“…everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.” —1 John 5:1-5
The children of God are not identified by conformity to a man-made tradition, but, as the apostle wrote, by believing that Jesus is “the Christ” and because they “practice righteousness” (1 John 3:4-10). And because “the righteousness of God is revealed” in the gospel, those “who hunger and thirst after righteousness” find their fill in the words of “the righteous one,” God’s Son (Rom. 1:17; Matt. 5:6; Acts 3:14; 1 John 2:1), who imparts in believers confidence that his message was truly from God, as he made clear:
“My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.” —John 7:16-17
That is to say, the words of the Messiah are trustworthy and righteous, for he has “not spoken on [his] own authority, but the Father who sent [him] has Himself given [him] a commandment—what to say and what to speak,” the commandment that leads to “eternal life.” —John 12:49, 50
The apostle John bore witness to the same hope, based on the same sure foundation:
“And we ourselves have seen and do testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” —1 John 4:14, 15
In spite of the theological formulations of early “church” councils and traditional creeds, the life that Jesus has in himself, as God’s Son, was “granted” to him by one who is “greater” than himself—his Father—and he himself lives “because of” Him (John 5:36; 6:57; 14:28). He is, as Scripture says, “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of [God’s] glory” and “the exact representation of His very being” (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:2, 3). He is “the apostle and high priest of our confession”—the “one mediator between God and men” (Heb. 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5).
These are descriptions that reflect the true, divinely-revealed role and identity of Jesus, the Messiah. Unfortunately the so-called “orthodox” or “mainline” church institutions have, in a multitude of ways, defected from the original letter, and spirit, of Scripture—requiring the confession of doctrine and language that go beyond what is revealed there. As pervasive as they have proven to be historically, however, institution-based creedal formulas that go beyond the Scripture’s own language are unnecessary and often misleading. Because the Scriptures themselves are “able to make [one] wise unto salvation,” and because they spell the truth out with sufficient clarity on these matters, “the man of God” is under no obligation to recognize the authority of any other source (See for example: 1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3; 1 Tim. 2:5; Deut. 6:4; 2 Tim. 3:14-18).
The Lordship of Jesus Christ
In the Christian Scriptures Jesus is dignified with the status of “Lord” because of the all-encompassing authority given to him by God; as Jesus declared to his disciples after the resurrection: “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18; Psalm 110:1). Jesus was a faithful servant of God who lived a perfectly obedient life to the point of an agonizing death—“for this reason God has so highly exalted him and given him the name that is above every name…” (Acts 3:26; Isaiah 52:13; Phil. 2:8-11). Because of his enduring faithfulness as “the only begotten of the Father,” God has not only “seated him at His right hand” but “has placed all things under his feet,” appointing him “to be head over everything for the congregation” of God’s people (John 1:14; Eph. 1:20-22); as Peter gave assurance to the house of Israel:
“God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ” —Acts 2:36
This is the testimony of the apostles, who, throughout their public ministry, continually drew attention to the Messiah’s resurrection and God-given Lordship as essential to the good news of salvation:
“…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
Scripturally, however, to honor Jesus as “Lord” is not to conflate him with the “one God, the Father,” who is “one,” but to recognize the authority that his Father, God, has vested in him. That is why our obedience to, and confession of, Jesus as the exalted “Lord” always resounds “to the glory of God the Father.” —Phil. 2:11; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Deut. 6:4; Compare John 5:22, 23; 12:26
The dangers of “another gospel”
“…the good news that was proclaimed by me was not of human origin; for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”
—The apostle Paul, Galatians 1:11, NRSV
The good news preached by Jesus and his apostles is the same one Christians accept and live by today—requiring no additions, refinements, or alterations (Gal. 1:6-9). As it was in the first century, Christians today continue “devoting themselves to the apostles’ doctrine”—“sound doctrine” that is, thankfully, preserved for us in scriptural form to this day. —Tit. 1:9; 2:1; Acts 2:42; 2 Tim. 3:14-18
The apostles were well aware of the human tendency to corrupt and suppress the truth of the message they were entrusted with (Acts 20:29-32). They knew that, through various agencies, Satan falsely presented himself as “an angel of light,” and that his servants would “disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness.” They knew that the enemy deliberately worked to “blind the minds of unbelievers,” and of false teachers who would “secretly bring in destructive divisions” just as they would “distort the gospel of Christ.” That is why the apostles wrote much to address the threat of a “different gospel,” admonishing Christians to “examine everything carefully,” and to “not believe every spirit” but to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God,” since “many false prophets” and “deceivers have gone out into the world.” —2 Cor. 4:4; 11:14; 2 Pet. 2:1;1 John 4:1; 2 John 7; 1 Thess. 5:21; Gal. 1:7; 2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6
Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Messiah
Although controversy still rages in religious circles regarding the true identity of Jesus, in the first century, the original, foundational truth of the gospel was that Jesus of Nazareth was the long-awaited “Christ” or “Messiah”—God’s “beloved” and “anointed” Son. The sense of the term Messiah (‘anointed one’) is brought out in Jesus’ own words regarding himself as “the one whom the Father consecrated and sent forth into the world,” and when God himself testified of Jesus during his baptism, “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” He is, according to Scripture, the one whom God “sent” and the one on whom God, the Father, has “set his seal.” —John 10:36; Matt. 3:16; John 3:34; 5:30; 7:29; 6:27
Faith in, and confession of, Jesus as “the Christ” is essential, the true foundation of Christian faith; so much that the faith itself was, in the minds’ of the apostles, directly tied to one’s being “born of God”—a truth delivered by way of direct revelation from the Father. This was demonstrated in Matthew’s Gospel, when Jesus pointedly asked his disciples, “who do you say that I am?”—to which the disciple Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” In turn, Jesus responded, “Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” —Matt. 16:13-18
In perfect harmony, at the end of his Gospel account, the apostle John summarized the purpose of his own writings in this way:
“These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name.” —John 20:31
Unlike the doctrinal formulations of the historic “creeds,” the disclosure of Jesus’ identity as “the Christ” and “Son of God” is neither an interpretation nor a theological inference, but a divinely-revealed truth upon which the gospel stands. This is the true article of the Christian faith, resting not on the traditions of men but on the testimony of God Himself. As the apostle John wrote in his first epistle:
“If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is surely greater; for this is the testimony of God, that He has borne witness to His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to His Son.” —1 John 5:9-10
The apostle likewise assured those whom he was writing to in the first century:
“…everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.” —1 John 5:1-5
The children of God are not identified by conformity to a man-made tradition, but, as the apostle wrote, by believing that Jesus is “the Christ” and because they “practice righteousness” (1 John 3:4-10). And because “the righteousness of God is revealed” in the gospel, those “who hunger and thirst after righteousness” find their fill in the words of “the righteous one,” God’s Son (Rom. 1:17; Matt. 5:6; Acts 3:14; 1 John 2:1), who imparts in believers confidence that his message was truly from God, as he made clear:
“My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.” —John 7:16-17
That is to say, the words of the Messiah are trustworthy and righteous, for he has “not spoken on [his] own authority, but the Father who sent [him] has Himself given [him] a commandment—what to say and what to speak,” the commandment that leads to “eternal life.” —John 12:49, 50
The apostle John bore witness to the same hope, based on the same sure foundation:
“And we ourselves have seen and do testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” —1 John 4:14, 15
In spite of the theological formulations of early “church” councils and traditional creeds, the life that Jesus has in himself, as God’s Son, was “granted” to him by one who is “greater” than himself—his Father—and he himself lives “because of” Him (John 5:36; 6:57; 14:28). He is, as Scripture says, “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of [God’s] glory” and “the exact representation of His very being” (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:2, 3). He is “the apostle and high priest of our confession”—the “one mediator between God and men” (Heb. 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5).
These are descriptions that reflect the true, divinely-revealed role and identity of Jesus, the Messiah. Unfortunately the so-called “orthodox” or “mainline” church institutions have, in a multitude of ways, defected from the original letter, and spirit, of Scripture—requiring the confession of doctrine and language that go beyond what is revealed there. As pervasive as they have proven to be historically, however, institution-based creedal formulas that go beyond the Scripture’s own language are unnecessary and often misleading. Because the Scriptures themselves are “able to make [one] wise unto salvation,” and because they spell the truth out with sufficient clarity on these matters, “the man of God” is under no obligation to recognize the authority of any other source (See for example: 1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3; 1 Tim. 2:5; Deut. 6:4; 2 Tim. 3:14-18).
The Lordship of Jesus Christ
In the Christian Scriptures Jesus is dignified with the status of “Lord” because of the all-encompassing authority given to him by God; as Jesus declared to his disciples after the resurrection: “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18; Psalm 110:1). Jesus was a faithful servant of God who lived a perfectly obedient life to the point of an agonizing death—“for this reason God has so highly exalted him and given him the name that is above every name…” (Acts 3:26; Isaiah 52:13; Phil. 2:8-11). Because of his enduring faithfulness as “the only begotten of the Father,” God has not only “seated him at His right hand” but “has placed all things under his feet,” appointing him “to be head over everything for the congregation” of God’s people (John 1:14; Eph. 1:20-22); as Peter gave assurance to the house of Israel:
“God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ” —Acts 2:36
This is the testimony of the apostles, who, throughout their public ministry, continually drew attention to the Messiah’s resurrection and God-given Lordship as essential to the good news of salvation:
“…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
Scripturally, however, to honor Jesus as “Lord” is not to conflate him with the “one God, the Father,” who is “one,” but to recognize the authority that his Father, God, has vested in him. That is why our obedience to, and confession of, Jesus as the exalted “Lord” always resounds “to the glory of God the Father.” —Phil. 2:11; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Deut. 6:4; Compare John 5:22, 23; 12:26
The dangers of “another gospel”
“…the good news that was proclaimed by me was not of human origin; for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”
—The apostle Paul, Galatians 1:11, NRSV
The good news preached by Jesus and his apostles is the same one Christians accept and live by today—requiring no additions, refinements, or alterations (Gal. 1:6-9). As it was in the first century, Christians today continue “devoting themselves to the apostles’ doctrine”—“sound doctrine” that is, thankfully, preserved for us in scriptural form to this day. —Tit. 1:9; 2:1; Acts 2:42; 2 Tim. 3:14-18
The apostles were well aware of the human tendency to corrupt and suppress the truth of the message they were entrusted with (Acts 20:29-32). They knew that, through various agencies, Satan falsely presented himself as “an angel of light,” and that his servants would “disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness.” They knew that the enemy deliberately worked to “blind the minds of unbelievers,” and of false teachers who would “secretly bring in destructive divisions” just as they would “distort the gospel of Christ.” That is why the apostles wrote much to address the threat of a “different gospel,” admonishing Christians to “examine everything carefully,” and to “not believe every spirit” but to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God,” since “many false prophets” and “deceivers have gone out into the world.” —2 Cor. 4:4; 11:14; 2 Pet. 2:1;1 John 4:1; 2 John 7; 1 Thess. 5:21; Gal. 1:7; 2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6
Wednesday, April 29, 2009
Questions for Trinitarians
Please read the following book(it's really fantastic):
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas from which I got many of these questions.
Further Questions:
When you honor the son as you honor the father,do you honor him as appointed king and Messiah OF God,as God's most beloved son,as the bible describes him?Or do you honor him as Almighty God,One who is the same being his father is,as the bible nowhere indicates you should?Would you call Jesus's father the only true God like Jesus did?How come Jesus is never called the only True God but distinguished his being from his father's?
Do you believe every ounce of Jesus's being was speaking when he said "No one is good but one,God" and "the father is greater than I?"If not,why not?If not,isn't that an implication of schizophrenia ,and can you show me a scripture that says he is 200 percent and the weaker 100 percent human portion overpowered the 100 percent God portion of his being?Are you SURE this isn't an inference?
If man is made in God's image,where are the other two persons in your being,each 100 % you?iIf you think that sounds nuts,think about how the trinity sounds to skeptics!
Why do trinitarians insist that Jesus being the son of God made him equal to God just because the Jews assumed this to be so?Didn't the Jews also assume he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath?Were they really reliable people for finding truth?Didn't Jesus refute them by saying things like "I do nothing by myself","my words are not my own","ye are all gods" etc?If you believe the Jews,then you've made the word of Jesus invalid by accepting theirs.And if Jesus WAS equal to God in some way(by God's power working through His agency and in will and purpose possibly?)how would that suggest ANYTHING but that he cannot actually BE God?If you're equal to someone,are you the same "being" as that one?
Will you admit that Jesus' father is REALLY greater than him like the bible says or will you infer your own wild philosophy onto the simple truthful holy word and say only 1 of his 200 percent was talkin?
Will you respect the word and trust that God alone is wise and good or will you trust Athanasius and Tertullian and your preacher for your doctrine,even if it means heaping a preconceived fallacy on every text that distinguishes Jesus FROM GOD?
Will you accept Jesus as the Messiah and savior and son of God and appointed king and heir or will you accept him as the same being whose son he is who blessed him and gave him everything he has?
How come you say it was just a human nature inheriting something that as Almighty God he already possessed when the bible only says that Jesus,God's son through obedience and faithfulness,inherited something from his own God and father that he EARNED?
Are you implying that the 100% GOD part wasn't powerful enough to overcome the HUMAN limitations?
If Jesus is coequal why would he pretend he wasn't?Is Jesus deceptive?Why didn't he indicate that one hundred percent of the 200 percent of his person was absent from his statements of reliance and inferiority?Wouldn't this be a SERIOUS omission?
If he was God wouldn't the son of God have been deceptive language?
If God said "I am the son of God" he would be a liar,unless he's no longer just one being.
If Jesus became like his brothers in every way,does this mean they are God?If Christians have the fullness of God,does this mean they are God?If Adam had the image .or form.of God,did that mean he was God?Is Moses God,cause he was God to Pharaoh and Aaron?If not,why are these standards proof Jesus was God?
Why do trinitarians suggest that Jesus having a share of God's glory means he has to be God when Jesus indicates at John 17:22 that his followers will share in the SAME glory,suggesting the kind of glory he himself possesses,a glory afforded him as a gift from his God?And if he has it and then his disciples will,will they be in the godhead too?
And the following are from the website :
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/questions.html
Why do Trinitarian apologists fail to mention their defender Athanasius believed "God became man so that men might become gods." ?
Why do Trinitarians suggestively imply the early Christian Tertullian had Trinitarian beliefs but refrain from disclosing that he declared the Son was inferior to the Father and also insisted there was a time when the Son was not?
Why does the Trinitarian three person God mislead his people by using the singular personal pronouns "I" and "ME"?
How do Trinitarians expect anyone to believe the shema given by God to Israel, "The LORD our God the LORD is one" was intended to mean to the Jewish people "the Lord is one substance" or "the LORD is one trio"?
Why do Trinitarians misrepresent the facts of history by claiming the Trinity issue was settled at the Council of Nicea when Arians had almost won the day 40 years later? And why do they fail to mention the Arian controversy was really ended politically by a decree of Emperor Theodosius 55 years after Nicea?
Why do Trinitarians declare the number of individuals of the "US" and "OUR" group at Genesis 1:26 to be three persons, no more, no less, without any evidence whatsoever? And why they refuse to consistently refer to God as "THEY" and "THEM"?
Why did Jesus say, "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent" instead of "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know Us, the only true God?"
Also of interest to a trinitarian..the following blog:
http://putawaythatmeat.blogspot.com/2009/03/trinity-on-trialstolen-from-another.html
This is a MUST read :-)....thanks!
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas from which I got many of these questions.
Further Questions:
When you honor the son as you honor the father,do you honor him as appointed king and Messiah OF God,as God's most beloved son,as the bible describes him?Or do you honor him as Almighty God,One who is the same being his father is,as the bible nowhere indicates you should?Would you call Jesus's father the only true God like Jesus did?How come Jesus is never called the only True God but distinguished his being from his father's?
Do you believe every ounce of Jesus's being was speaking when he said "No one is good but one,God" and "the father is greater than I?"If not,why not?If not,isn't that an implication of schizophrenia ,and can you show me a scripture that says he is 200 percent and the weaker 100 percent human portion overpowered the 100 percent God portion of his being?Are you SURE this isn't an inference?
If man is made in God's image,where are the other two persons in your being,each 100 % you?iIf you think that sounds nuts,think about how the trinity sounds to skeptics!
Why do trinitarians insist that Jesus being the son of God made him equal to God just because the Jews assumed this to be so?Didn't the Jews also assume he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath?Were they really reliable people for finding truth?Didn't Jesus refute them by saying things like "I do nothing by myself","my words are not my own","ye are all gods" etc?If you believe the Jews,then you've made the word of Jesus invalid by accepting theirs.And if Jesus WAS equal to God in some way(by God's power working through His agency and in will and purpose possibly?)how would that suggest ANYTHING but that he cannot actually BE God?If you're equal to someone,are you the same "being" as that one?
Will you admit that Jesus' father is REALLY greater than him like the bible says or will you infer your own wild philosophy onto the simple truthful holy word and say only 1 of his 200 percent was talkin?
Will you respect the word and trust that God alone is wise and good or will you trust Athanasius and Tertullian and your preacher for your doctrine,even if it means heaping a preconceived fallacy on every text that distinguishes Jesus FROM GOD?
Will you accept Jesus as the Messiah and savior and son of God and appointed king and heir or will you accept him as the same being whose son he is who blessed him and gave him everything he has?
How come you say it was just a human nature inheriting something that as Almighty God he already possessed when the bible only says that Jesus,God's son through obedience and faithfulness,inherited something from his own God and father that he EARNED?
Are you implying that the 100% GOD part wasn't powerful enough to overcome the HUMAN limitations?
If Jesus is coequal why would he pretend he wasn't?Is Jesus deceptive?Why didn't he indicate that one hundred percent of the 200 percent of his person was absent from his statements of reliance and inferiority?Wouldn't this be a SERIOUS omission?
If he was God wouldn't the son of God have been deceptive language?
If God said "I am the son of God" he would be a liar,unless he's no longer just one being.
If Jesus became like his brothers in every way,does this mean they are God?If Christians have the fullness of God,does this mean they are God?If Adam had the image .or form.of God,did that mean he was God?Is Moses God,cause he was God to Pharaoh and Aaron?If not,why are these standards proof Jesus was God?
Why do trinitarians suggest that Jesus having a share of God's glory means he has to be God when Jesus indicates at John 17:22 that his followers will share in the SAME glory,suggesting the kind of glory he himself possesses,a glory afforded him as a gift from his God?And if he has it and then his disciples will,will they be in the godhead too?
And the following are from the website :
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/questions.html
Why do Trinitarian apologists fail to mention their defender Athanasius believed "God became man so that men might become gods." ?
Why do Trinitarians suggestively imply the early Christian Tertullian had Trinitarian beliefs but refrain from disclosing that he declared the Son was inferior to the Father and also insisted there was a time when the Son was not?
Why does the Trinitarian three person God mislead his people by using the singular personal pronouns "I" and "ME"?
How do Trinitarians expect anyone to believe the shema given by God to Israel, "The LORD our God the LORD is one" was intended to mean to the Jewish people "the Lord is one substance" or "the LORD is one trio"?
Why do Trinitarians misrepresent the facts of history by claiming the Trinity issue was settled at the Council of Nicea when Arians had almost won the day 40 years later? And why do they fail to mention the Arian controversy was really ended politically by a decree of Emperor Theodosius 55 years after Nicea?
Why do Trinitarians declare the number of individuals of the "US" and "OUR" group at Genesis 1:26 to be three persons, no more, no less, without any evidence whatsoever? And why they refuse to consistently refer to God as "THEY" and "THEM"?
Why did Jesus say, "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent" instead of "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know Us, the only true God?"
Also of interest to a trinitarian..the following blog:
http://putawaythatmeat.blogspot.com/2009/03/trinity-on-trialstolen-from-another.html
This is a MUST read :-)....thanks!
Thursday, April 2, 2009
Reasoning with trinitarians part 4
This blog was originally written in response to a particular trinitarian's objections but I've modified it as some of my beliefs have changed.Hope this still makes some sense and doesn't seem discombobulated because of the quick and choppy editing.
Trinitarians say in Revelation 5:13-14 the same glory and praise is being given to Jehovah and Christ,and that if two people are given the same thing from someone, they are sharing it.
1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.”..so by this reasoning,am I to assume the king is thought of as the same God Yahweh is?And no I’m not comparing Jesus to an earthly king because he is second most high over all,but your standards for being Jehovah are skewed.
Jesus was a servant OF Jehovah,an agent of Jehovah and a son of Jehovah.Can’t dance around it.
Another triniatrian objection is that God is the only savior therefore Jesus is God.
Nnyone Jehovah uses to save through can be called savior.Who sent Jesus to save?Would Jesus have been able to save if he hadn’t been sent?
Here’s a point from my blog:
1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bile in basic English)
Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb’s younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God’s world translation)
Isaiah 19:20:he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)
By trinitarian standards,anyone Jehovah sent forth to save or rescue his people could be called almighty God.
I would be interested in finding out what you think Jesus preached about most ?Was it his own name and his own death?Or was it the kingdom of God and his father’s name?Aren’t we to follow in his footsteps?Should our entire gospel message be Jesus or should it go beyond him all the way to the kingdom message and his God and father’s name?If Jesus opened the way for us to reach Jehovah,why should we stop at Jesus and assume there is no one to reach through him?If Jesus is your “all in all” then you are ignoring HIS “all in all”.That might be dangerous.
Jesus was a miraculously conceived human being who was about to be exalted above his partners!Now let’s think about this for a minute..who would his partners be?And if Jesus was Almighty God would it really be appropriate to say he has partners that Almighty God will exalt him above ONLY BECAUSE of his obedience and faithfulness and conquering of the world and saving man?And if one Almighty God exalts another Almighty God above his partners how many almighty Gods is that exactly?I don’t think Jehovah has partners..I think he has servants and sons and subordinates.I don’t think Jehovah can learn obedience and be exalted,but apparently trinitarians do.
Jesus was “the Last Adam”..Now if one perfect man had the power to cause the fall of all men then another perfect man ,on Jehovah’s scales of absolute justice ,had the power to buy back the lives that the other had lost.Remember,God cannot die and you are robbing us of atonement,Mr. Trinitarian ..because you don’t believe Jesus REALLY died do you?Just a human nature but Jesus was REALLY alive somewhere right?If Jesus,all of him,wasn’t dead for three whole days in that tomb,not only are you preaching a different Jesus,but your atonement is null and void.
Jesus WAS absolutely a PERFECT SINLESS miraculously conceived human being while he was here.Able to be tempted and able to die.Because of his relying on Jehovah for everything,supplicating continually,and throwing his burdens on Jehovah,he was sinless and the flawless sacrifice for our redemption.He was the LAST Adam..now I know for a fact that the heavens can't even contain the Most High,that the Most high is so holy that he can't LITERALLY live amongst unholy men..in fact,so holy that his perfect flawless son has to mediate,yet you think this same Most High was tempted,relied upon and continually supplicated to himself and resided amongst the very men that are too unholy to even speak to him without mediation.Also,that he died.This is grossly unbiblical and made possible only by a pagan philosophy that turns one into three,that redefines son,and calls God mortal and assumes a soul cannot be destroyed or die,again,UNBIBLICAL.What it IS ,however,is philosophical and creedal.Again,if one perfect man who sinned was able to make every one of us lose our lives then another perfect man who didn't sin,but instead humbled himself under the mighty hand of HIS GOD,could buy them back!!THAT is Jehovah's scales of justice.I don't care about your own.After all,God can't die and souls aren't immortal till they're GIFTED immortality and Jesus wasn't until he was raised on the third day.Any other teaching is a different Jesus and a lie.Jehovah sent his son to die.Not himself.
2 Samuel 7:12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. 14 I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. 15 As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. 16 And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
So now I can only ask you if Jehovah reproved himself and allowed men to abuse and kill himself or was it his son?I would also wonder if the one who was brought before the "Ancient of Days" WAS the "Ancient of Days" or was it his son and heir?How is this scenario a remote possibility if they are the SAME God and where is the holy spirit?Now did Jehovah will and grant a kingdom,as firstborn heir,to himself or to his son?Do you understand the concept of a father and a son?
I obviously can't read hebrew or greek,but what I can do is understand what "one" "sent" "servant" "given" different will" "nothing of my own initiative" "supplication" "tempted" "dead" "agent" "representative" and "father and son" mean.
I have yet to have a single "Christian" soul find me a passage where the "firstborn" of a group is not a MEMBER of that very group.Am I to assume something different for Jesus,that suddenly he isn't a part of God's very creation??OF COURSE NOT.After all,he DID call Jehovah his God and father and HIS God and father did testify from the very heavens that Jesus is a beloved son!And I'm supposed to turn off reasoning with a creed remote and turn down the volume with a philosophy button to believe these two very distinct personalities are the very same being.No thanks.I prefer to utilize my reasoning and listen carefully to Jehovah and Jesus's own testimonies.
Lots of reiiteration sure to abound ahead..caution:
(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
He doesn't say,I am going my way to the father ,who isn't REALLY greater than I am
..(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God
He didn't say "I'm about to lie here"
..(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
He didn't say "triune Jehovah"
..(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him
it doesn't say there is one triune God with father,son and holy ghost
Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever!
He didn't say "one of my two natures died"
Who did Peter say Jesus was ?
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16:16).
He didn't say "you are Jehovah God Almighty,one of three persons of Jehovah God Almighty.
Who did Jesus say his father was?
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God
He didn't say he was one of three persons in the same true God.
And I've yet to receive an honest response to this:"True God from True God"..how many True Gods is that?
Trinitarians say in Revelation 5:13-14 the same glory and praise is being given to Jehovah and Christ,and that if two people are given the same thing from someone, they are sharing it.
1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.”..so by this reasoning,am I to assume the king is thought of as the same God Yahweh is?And no I’m not comparing Jesus to an earthly king because he is second most high over all,but your standards for being Jehovah are skewed.
Jesus was a servant OF Jehovah,an agent of Jehovah and a son of Jehovah.Can’t dance around it.
Another triniatrian objection is that God is the only savior therefore Jesus is God.
Nnyone Jehovah uses to save through can be called savior.Who sent Jesus to save?Would Jesus have been able to save if he hadn’t been sent?
Here’s a point from my blog:
1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bile in basic English)
Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb’s younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God’s world translation)
Isaiah 19:20:he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)
By trinitarian standards,anyone Jehovah sent forth to save or rescue his people could be called almighty God.
I would be interested in finding out what you think Jesus preached about most ?Was it his own name and his own death?Or was it the kingdom of God and his father’s name?Aren’t we to follow in his footsteps?Should our entire gospel message be Jesus or should it go beyond him all the way to the kingdom message and his God and father’s name?If Jesus opened the way for us to reach Jehovah,why should we stop at Jesus and assume there is no one to reach through him?If Jesus is your “all in all” then you are ignoring HIS “all in all”.That might be dangerous.
Jesus was a miraculously conceived human being who was about to be exalted above his partners!Now let’s think about this for a minute..who would his partners be?And if Jesus was Almighty God would it really be appropriate to say he has partners that Almighty God will exalt him above ONLY BECAUSE of his obedience and faithfulness and conquering of the world and saving man?And if one Almighty God exalts another Almighty God above his partners how many almighty Gods is that exactly?I don’t think Jehovah has partners..I think he has servants and sons and subordinates.I don’t think Jehovah can learn obedience and be exalted,but apparently trinitarians do.
Jesus was “the Last Adam”..Now if one perfect man had the power to cause the fall of all men then another perfect man ,on Jehovah’s scales of absolute justice ,had the power to buy back the lives that the other had lost.Remember,God cannot die and you are robbing us of atonement,Mr. Trinitarian ..because you don’t believe Jesus REALLY died do you?Just a human nature but Jesus was REALLY alive somewhere right?If Jesus,all of him,wasn’t dead for three whole days in that tomb,not only are you preaching a different Jesus,but your atonement is null and void.
Jesus WAS absolutely a PERFECT SINLESS miraculously conceived human being while he was here.Able to be tempted and able to die.Because of his relying on Jehovah for everything,supplicating continually,and throwing his burdens on Jehovah,he was sinless and the flawless sacrifice for our redemption.He was the LAST Adam..now I know for a fact that the heavens can't even contain the Most High,that the Most high is so holy that he can't LITERALLY live amongst unholy men..in fact,so holy that his perfect flawless son has to mediate,yet you think this same Most High was tempted,relied upon and continually supplicated to himself and resided amongst the very men that are too unholy to even speak to him without mediation.Also,that he died.This is grossly unbiblical and made possible only by a pagan philosophy that turns one into three,that redefines son,and calls God mortal and assumes a soul cannot be destroyed or die,again,UNBIBLICAL.What it IS ,however,is philosophical and creedal.Again,if one perfect man who sinned was able to make every one of us lose our lives then another perfect man who didn't sin,but instead humbled himself under the mighty hand of HIS GOD,could buy them back!!THAT is Jehovah's scales of justice.I don't care about your own.After all,God can't die and souls aren't immortal till they're GIFTED immortality and Jesus wasn't until he was raised on the third day.Any other teaching is a different Jesus and a lie.Jehovah sent his son to die.Not himself.
2 Samuel 7:12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. 14 I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. 15 As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. 16 And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
So now I can only ask you if Jehovah reproved himself and allowed men to abuse and kill himself or was it his son?I would also wonder if the one who was brought before the "Ancient of Days" WAS the "Ancient of Days" or was it his son and heir?How is this scenario a remote possibility if they are the SAME God and where is the holy spirit?Now did Jehovah will and grant a kingdom,as firstborn heir,to himself or to his son?Do you understand the concept of a father and a son?
I obviously can't read hebrew or greek,but what I can do is understand what "one" "sent" "servant" "given" different will" "nothing of my own initiative" "supplication" "tempted" "dead" "agent" "representative" and "father and son" mean.
I have yet to have a single "Christian" soul find me a passage where the "firstborn" of a group is not a MEMBER of that very group.Am I to assume something different for Jesus,that suddenly he isn't a part of God's very creation??OF COURSE NOT.After all,he DID call Jehovah his God and father and HIS God and father did testify from the very heavens that Jesus is a beloved son!And I'm supposed to turn off reasoning with a creed remote and turn down the volume with a philosophy button to believe these two very distinct personalities are the very same being.No thanks.I prefer to utilize my reasoning and listen carefully to Jehovah and Jesus's own testimonies.
Lots of reiiteration sure to abound ahead..caution:
(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
He doesn't say,I am going my way to the father ,who isn't REALLY greater than I am
..(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God
He didn't say "I'm about to lie here"
..(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
He didn't say "triune Jehovah"
..(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him
it doesn't say there is one triune God with father,son and holy ghost
Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever!
He didn't say "one of my two natures died"
Who did Peter say Jesus was ?
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16:16).
He didn't say "you are Jehovah God Almighty,one of three persons of Jehovah God Almighty.
Who did Jesus say his father was?
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God
He didn't say he was one of three persons in the same true God.
And I've yet to receive an honest response to this:"True God from True God"..how many True Gods is that?
Wednesday, April 1, 2009
2 Corinthians 5:8 and the kingdom of God
At first,I was just going to write a very brief blog to address 2 Corinthians 5:8.But somehow it turned into a kingdom blog.I called it Kangdom,not because I can't spell but because I live in Kentucky.
Orthodox Christians say:
2 Corintians 5:8:we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
So their reasoning is that death is nothing but the separation of the soul from the body(just like Satan's lie..no one ever REALLY dies!) so the resurrection MUST BE just a rejoining of the two.
Ok..this answer is from a yahoo message board from a JW I 'm assuming ..anyway,here it is(MUCH better than anything I could've said):
At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.
When would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” He added, , “ the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.
This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.
Gotta love some good ol' logic!After all,we know the dead are described as sleeping and having no thoughts at all,which would be impossible were they alive somewhere.It is of utmost importance to recognize corresponding texts to exegete those that seem to state something so clearly..they MUST be used with others,the succint majority!The bible also points out that God made this earth "even to be inhabited" and flesh(which doesn't inhabit the heavens) will be praising his holy name forever on a cleansed perfected earth.
Even when the dead are dead,he sees them AS THOUGH they are alive.He has a book of remembrance,which isn't reconcilable with the immortal soul doctrine.(Just one of MANY things that aren't!)Also,if the resurrection is just a "rejoining" of soul and body,why is it even happening..if the souls are in their destinies why is there a need for this and why is there a future judgment if one has already occurred?
Romans 8:18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
And what expectation can this creation anticipate,as Heavenly Jerusalem descends from the heavens over the earth for the benefit of mankind?Well,obviously we can expect untold benefits and blessings that Adam and Eve could've had for an eternity had they never sinned.
Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
I believe those nations will be on earth,enjoying the "trees of life,with leaves that heal" and "rivers of waters of life".
Genesis 2:9:And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden
Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.
So the bride,the anointed,urge all those wishing to live forever in a paradise on earth to take life's water free!How awesome is that?!
Reminds us of this:
John 4:13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”
God did not put it into the hearts of men to desire peace on earth and love for nature and animals etc..only to have us think our only hope is one in the heavens!If you feel that peace on earth with no more sickness and death,with blessings unimaginable sounds like a good thing,then that is because your creator gave you those ideals and hopes.Ones that he can fulfill.
Revelation 5:10: and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings on the earth
Psalms 45:16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons,Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.
So what this says to me,those who were Jesus's forefathers (Abraham ,David etc) will be appointed in powerful positions right here!
All one gargantuan and benevolent theocratic organization,as God is a God of order and peace and not of disarray.
And when will these things occur?Well,it has to be soon.In the bible,Jehovah always destroyed wicked cities and people at the peak of their wickedness and folks,things couldn't get much worse.If ya don't think so,look at how television or schoolchildren have changed JUST SINCE the 50's.BIG difference!Huge!
And I am quite sure if you're on the internet much at all,you have heard about a lil somethin called the New World Order.Without getting into it too much,I would like to point out that it correlates with the tower of Babel.Jesus compared our days to those days so I think we are living in VERY significant times!
In the book of Daniel,chapters 2 and 7,we are told through visions that Daniel interpreted by means of God's holy spirit,the succession of world powers that would ensue upon this earth.They were Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medo-Persia,Greece,Rome and then lastly,the Anglo-American!And that is the last one!The book of revelation lets us know that this last one will remain "a short time",so we're nearly there folks!What will happen?Well,I won't get into the destruction of false religion and the cries of "Peace and Security!" etc,but there will certainly be tribulation like we have NEVER known,and there will never be anything like it ever again..Sounds abysmal and frightening,BUT afterward,BLESSINGS!
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
And I think we all know what kind of kingdom that will be and what kind of king it will have!So if we endure to the end in the love and worship of Jehovah and the veneration and recognition of our Lord and savior,Jesus Christ,our hearts should swell with the hope ahead!
Romans 15:4: For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope
The bible lets us know to seek knowledge,righteousness,meekness,love,fine works,etc..and we will inherit many blessings.Let us not give up and may we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God Almighty.All those who do will be exalted and all those who don't will suffer humiliation and ultimately,destruction.(Micah 6:8,Mark 13:13,Proverbs 18:12,John 3:16)
Jehovah is LOVE.Jehovah is salvation.(that's what Jesus' very name means,whom he used as agent in the salvation of his loved children).Jehovah means" he causes to become" and that he has,and that he will continue to do!
Neva forget that we have as high priest someone who has been tempted in every way just like we have been,who has suffered huge atrocities etc.None of us can know every minute detail ..and the bible even talks about "new scrolls" that will be opened..so our eyes and hearts and minds should be focused on the kingdom to come and not any status or wealth or distracting focus that this world has to offer,for it is passing away.
1 John 2:15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.
God's will is for us to follow in Christ's footsteps by living for the kingdom and for the exaltation of Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.
Orthodox Christians say:
2 Corintians 5:8:we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
So their reasoning is that death is nothing but the separation of the soul from the body(just like Satan's lie..no one ever REALLY dies!) so the resurrection MUST BE just a rejoining of the two.
Ok..this answer is from a yahoo message board from a JW I 'm assuming ..anyway,here it is(MUCH better than anything I could've said):
At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.
When would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” He added, , “ the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.
This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.
Gotta love some good ol' logic!After all,we know the dead are described as sleeping and having no thoughts at all,which would be impossible were they alive somewhere.It is of utmost importance to recognize corresponding texts to exegete those that seem to state something so clearly..they MUST be used with others,the succint majority!The bible also points out that God made this earth "even to be inhabited" and flesh(which doesn't inhabit the heavens) will be praising his holy name forever on a cleansed perfected earth.
Even when the dead are dead,he sees them AS THOUGH they are alive.He has a book of remembrance,which isn't reconcilable with the immortal soul doctrine.(Just one of MANY things that aren't!)Also,if the resurrection is just a "rejoining" of soul and body,why is it even happening..if the souls are in their destinies why is there a need for this and why is there a future judgment if one has already occurred?
Romans 8:18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
And what expectation can this creation anticipate,as Heavenly Jerusalem descends from the heavens over the earth for the benefit of mankind?Well,obviously we can expect untold benefits and blessings that Adam and Eve could've had for an eternity had they never sinned.
Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
I believe those nations will be on earth,enjoying the "trees of life,with leaves that heal" and "rivers of waters of life".
Genesis 2:9:And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden
Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.
So the bride,the anointed,urge all those wishing to live forever in a paradise on earth to take life's water free!How awesome is that?!
Reminds us of this:
John 4:13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”
God did not put it into the hearts of men to desire peace on earth and love for nature and animals etc..only to have us think our only hope is one in the heavens!If you feel that peace on earth with no more sickness and death,with blessings unimaginable sounds like a good thing,then that is because your creator gave you those ideals and hopes.Ones that he can fulfill.
Revelation 5:10: and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings on the earth
Psalms 45:16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons,Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.
So what this says to me,those who were Jesus's forefathers (Abraham ,David etc) will be appointed in powerful positions right here!
All one gargantuan and benevolent theocratic organization,as God is a God of order and peace and not of disarray.
And when will these things occur?Well,it has to be soon.In the bible,Jehovah always destroyed wicked cities and people at the peak of their wickedness and folks,things couldn't get much worse.If ya don't think so,look at how television or schoolchildren have changed JUST SINCE the 50's.BIG difference!Huge!
And I am quite sure if you're on the internet much at all,you have heard about a lil somethin called the New World Order.Without getting into it too much,I would like to point out that it correlates with the tower of Babel.Jesus compared our days to those days so I think we are living in VERY significant times!
In the book of Daniel,chapters 2 and 7,we are told through visions that Daniel interpreted by means of God's holy spirit,the succession of world powers that would ensue upon this earth.They were Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medo-Persia,Greece,Rome and then lastly,the Anglo-American!And that is the last one!The book of revelation lets us know that this last one will remain "a short time",so we're nearly there folks!What will happen?Well,I won't get into the destruction of false religion and the cries of "Peace and Security!" etc,but there will certainly be tribulation like we have NEVER known,and there will never be anything like it ever again..Sounds abysmal and frightening,BUT afterward,BLESSINGS!
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
And I think we all know what kind of kingdom that will be and what kind of king it will have!So if we endure to the end in the love and worship of Jehovah and the veneration and recognition of our Lord and savior,Jesus Christ,our hearts should swell with the hope ahead!
Romans 15:4: For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope
The bible lets us know to seek knowledge,righteousness,meekness,love,fine works,etc..and we will inherit many blessings.Let us not give up and may we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God Almighty.All those who do will be exalted and all those who don't will suffer humiliation and ultimately,destruction.(Micah 6:8,Mark 13:13,Proverbs 18:12,John 3:16)
Jehovah is LOVE.Jehovah is salvation.(that's what Jesus' very name means,whom he used as agent in the salvation of his loved children).Jehovah means" he causes to become" and that he has,and that he will continue to do!
Neva forget that we have as high priest someone who has been tempted in every way just like we have been,who has suffered huge atrocities etc.None of us can know every minute detail ..and the bible even talks about "new scrolls" that will be opened..so our eyes and hearts and minds should be focused on the kingdom to come and not any status or wealth or distracting focus that this world has to offer,for it is passing away.
1 John 2:15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.
God's will is for us to follow in Christ's footsteps by living for the kingdom and for the exaltation of Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.
Tuesday, March 31, 2009
Christmas
How bringing our holy Lord's name into something THIS disgusting,repulsive and demonic is acceptable to so many who claim to be Christian is BEYOND ME.The times for such willful ignorance and trying to wrap disgusting things in pretty packages is OVER.Quit touching the unclean thing.Be no part of the world.You can't drink from the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons.Satan keeps disguising himself as an angel of light and too many are buying it.Bringing Christ's name into this unabashed filth is UNACCEPTABLE imo.
Oh and another point,do you think there is a POSSIBILITY that Jehovah had to emphasize his being ONE because of the triune gods people worshipped all through history?Do you think it is POSSIBLE that he may,in fact,be one as opposed to triune,which means three?Unless you think God is deceptive(and he's not!),he is ,in fact,one,not three in one,because he never said he was three in one or even gave a hint that he might be!Let's face it..the bible is HUGE..certainly large enough for him to have somewhere stated his triunity if it were so because,again,he loves to be truthful and clear about who he is so that we may worship him in truth.He is love,after all.And those who say that the holy spirit reveals his triunity and not the bible so much(yes I've been told this) then how come Jehovah,through that SAME holy spirit, wouldn't reveal it in the bible?And if it was,there certainly would've been no need for a creed that redefined son of God into true God from true God.After all,that's two true Gods.And we know Jehovah is THE SOLE true God,for his son Jesus told us so.As if Jehovah hadn't already.One means one.Son means son.And the trinity is lie.
Trinity stupidity(this time it's MY stupidity)
As will become obvious,I wrote this blog before I disassociated from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I am cutting down on youtube witnessing.I thought if I stated it in a blog then I wouldn't go back on it.I would never want to repel anyone with my sometimes sarcastic nature or bold way of refuting the trinity or hell,the two lies I hate the most,so for the most part,I will stop.I've yet to experience one single person who was willing to reason or say "wow..that's a good point" unless they already believe like I do anyway.In the field ministry,which I have abandoned for years now as an inactive Jw,ppl were much more willing to reason and even study ,usually until someone's opposition would get to them.I can't even imagine being a trinitarian..I would have to scratch my head the whole time I prayed and redefine too many words and twist too many scriptures..it would be madness!I remember asking my pappaw who was a charismatic baptist preacher when I was a little girl why Jesus was God if he was God's son and he told me to just have faith.I remember showing him john 3:16 and saying something like "look Pappaw he sent his son and he says those not believing will die..will they die or will they burn forever?"..Even as a child,I understood these two simple truths and the way my pappaw would sweat and get all hyped up while he preached about hell etc..it scared me.I thought he would have a heart attack and I loved him more than anything.He was like a father to me.I still have and use his KJV that he left me..He had been friends with some Jehovah's witnesses who came and ate dinner with him and my mammaw on occasion and he loved JW's.I also discovered some very telling marks by pen in his bible.They were the ones about Jesus birth and the star leading the wise men(maybe he was contemplating the Christmas star and how it might not be a good thing?),Matthew 10:28 about the soul being destroyed along with the body,1 corinthians 14:27,28 about speaking in tongues,1 corinthians 15:27,28(which disproves the trinity),and rev 21 about the new heaven and the new earth.There were many more marked,but those are just a few..I basically think the JW's may have gotten to him,in a good way.There certainly was never a more selfless man..I remember one time he told me to open a drawer he had in his bedroom and it was full of dollar bills..there must've been AT least a hundred of them..he had been putting them in there when he had spare money just to one day see me smile about it.I wasted it all on babydolls and candy bars and Dr. Pepper and junk lol..Anyway,I pray for him a lot and hope to see him in the resurrection,him and my mammaw both,who was equally loving and selfless..Before she died,she and I used to joke about paradise and heaven.I told her she could watch me playing with polar bears and koalas and enjoying the beaches while she floated on a cloud in heaven.She admitted peace on earth would be wonderful but she said she was tired of toiling and didn't want to restore the earth or build houses lol...She did listen to the kingdom melodies cd that I gave her sometimes before she would go to sleep though..she liked the one about Ruth and Naomi.She used to ask me to sing it for her sometimes,which I'm sure she soon regretted as I am no Aguilera.Her favorite scripture was John 1:1 and she COULD NOT get past it.I'm not even sure she could've defined the trinity the right way to be honest..I mean who WOULDN'T be confused by such nonsense?
"I don't have three Gods just one!Three people who are each God but just one!"
umm..ObKb
And THE single MOST amazing thing..if you confess that Jesus is God's son and not God the son,in an orthodox Christian's mind,you will BURN baby BURN..and not just for a few minutes,or a few hours,or a few days,but FOR A LITERAL ETERNITY.Because apparently they think God is a maniac and the new heavens and new earth will definitely need a place of torment beneath em to keep em holy.As if someone who is voluntarily good can't be good without that kinda threat to their souls !SOOO frustrating.It blasphemes the holy and good name of God and it makes me angry.God is love.Those are three words that traditionalists need to meditate upon in a SERIOUS manner.Of course God has wrath for sin.Of course there can be no unholy unrepentant unloving rebellious sinner in the kingdom of God..that's why he will exterminate like pests any one like that.He doesn't wanna see it,much less hear it screaming for ever.
This is a schizophrenic sarcastic retarded "poem" I compiled and who knows who is speaking when..it's as confusing as revelation lol..if you aren't in the mood you may roll your eyes and close the page..anyways................
If he's one how is he three
If he's three how is he one
Stop lying mathematically
and redefining son
If he's greater how's he equal
If he's God,how'd he die?
If a movie has a sequel
does it come around the same time?
If he can't be likened to man how is he a man?
If he's omniscient how in the world can
he not know the day nor the revelation,in 1:1
If God can't have a father how is he a son?
If he's a spirit how is he still flesh?
And how he learned obedience is anyone's guess
Why did he have to be given everything?
God should not have to be given a thing!
Have you ever heard of anyone 200 percent?
Well now you have and don't ask why just have faith in it
When you hear "brought forth" "beginning" and "firstborn"
Be sure to redefine those simple little terms
Or else you'll burn forever with the simple little worms
Remember now that son doesn't mean what it always does
God is different you see and three it now means one
The holy spirit is conspicuously absent in all the visions of us
But don't ask anyone why..just walk by faith and trust.
God is "true God from true God" and it doesn't have to make sense
Later we'll add another and still say we're monotheists.
If there seems to be proof the trinity is bogus,remember the phrase "human nature"
and preach about hell and locusts and maybe noone will notice the paper
That the words "son and greater and dead and tempted and possessed" are written upon
Maybe distract a truth seeker with lies about hell and Jesus worship songs!
Heir,agent,and,again,son they don't mean a thing
Pay more attention to John 1:1 and stop it when you think!
And lest you start imagining that Jesus has a God more great
Turn right now and read on repeat John 20:28
And when Jesus is called God it means he is Jehovah see
And don't pretend there is such a thing as Hebrew law of agency.
When angels are called gods and kings are worshiped it has to be ignored!
Pretend it didn't happen and say Jesus has to be God!
And if a JW ever knocks on your door
they preach a different Jesus so their gospel is abhorred!
They say Jesus is God's own son
That he's king and messiah so you should run!
And if they tell you Jesus really died then they are lying for he is God!
if they tell you Jesus was really tempted they are lying for he is God!
If they tell you Jesus was REALLY a man on earth then they are lying for he is God!
Who cares what the bible says..texts can be twisted or blown off
Tradition and philosophy are the bee's knees
And Christmas is my favorite day,goodbye JW freaks!
Ya have so much to learn!
Don't ask me questions ya heretic.Burn baby burn!
I burned my Beduhn book I thought he was a scholar
If I ever see him around I'll choke him by the collar
He said the NWT was reliable and sound
What an idiot Satan wrote that book I've found
John 1:1 John 20:28 John 8:58..how many texts you willing to shun
To keep believing Jesus is the son of God and not God the son!!
haha,had to vent.I know it's muddled and childish but so am I sometimes ;-/.
I saw this as a comment on a youtube video..I don't know who made it..I forgot but I thought it was funny:
Jesus : My Father greater than i
Christians: Jesus and God are equal
Jesus : I can of myself do nothing
Christians : Jesus is as sovereign and as powerful as God
Jesus : I do not know of the Hour
Christians : Jesus is all knowing
Jesus : why do you call me good...?
Christians : Okay we will call you God then
Now I'll add a few of my own:
Jesus:Don't call me good.No one is good but one,God
Christians:Jesus is good therefore he has to be God.
Jesus:I have a God.
Christians:Jesus is that God he has.
Jesus:my will is different than God's on occasion
Christians:One person of a godhead had a different will than at least 1/3 of the godhead because he was 100 percent man as well remember..don't forget that that human limitation absolutely hindered that Almightiness on occasion.Cause remember if you are 100 percent God as well as 100 percent man,not only isn't it a fairy tale,but human natures can beat God natures sometimes apparently.It HAS to be that way to fit this pesky creed that spells out S.A.L.V.A.T.I.O.N.After all,they're all coequal. and consubstantial,which the bible is REAL clear about.
Jesus:I can do nothing of my own initiative but only what I behold my father doing.
Christians:hmm..he must be God.
Jews:he is making himself equal to God!
Christians:better believe those Jews!After all,they said he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath so they're always right!
Thomas:My Lord and my God!
Christians:God's agents and representatives and mighty beings have NEVER been called gods or God so Jesus is Jehovah!
Peter:you are the Christ,son of the living God
Christians:he meant that Jesus was God ya see
Disciples:puzzled that Jesus could do what they thought only God could do
Christians:see...they knew he was God!
Kellie:Jesus died
trinitarian:umm..one of his two natures died,but he wasn't really dead
Kellie:Where's your atonement
trinitarian:Jesus died
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:he did but he didn't
Kellie:Oh I see...makes PERFECT sense.
more ranting :-/
Yep I've heard one too many times that the worship of Jesus proves he is God.
Imagine I'm a big boss of a big company.I hire someone first to come in and do everything for me with my direction and supervision of course.I'm behind the scenes as the person I hired first hires others and accomplishes assigned tasks by my standards and appointment.Do I ever stop being boss?Does the person I use become me?Do I stop the other employees from revering him the same they revere me?Do they stop revering me?Do they forget my name because he exists?Do I stop appreciating and needing them and wanting their appreciation and reverence.?Do I stop being the one with the rewards ,the paychecks,the power to fire and hire?If the first person I hired understood that I was the BEST BOSS IN THE WORLD and he ,in fact,was the best employee in the world,do you really think he would forget everything I have given him or give me credit for his promotions and abundance?Again,does he BECOME ME because he does the things I tell him to do and reflects my personality and ways of doing things because not only does he appreciate and love me,but he knows that I know best.And when he behaves as I tell him to behave and represents me somewhere as coming in my name,are those people he goes to on my behalf to assume he IS me?What if he says "She is greater than me!" would you still have the right to assume he is me and I am him?Would this hold up logically?Is it possible to have more than one boss?More than one head over you?
Who glorified Jesus?
Why in the world can't Jesus be Proskeneo'd alongside his father as appointed heavenly king if even earthly kings were proskeneo'd along with Jehovah in the OT as ones who Jah gave glory to and can't it be in reconizance of not only the ones glorified BY JAH but also to the one who glorified them?And isn't this in fact stated FOR US In the bible that all things are FOR God's glory,as the honoring of his most beloved son absolutely IS?If Jehovah gave Jesus his rightful inheritances and glory as a mighty celestial being exalted to his right hand to defeat armies of evil at Armageddon and usher in a new heavens and a new earth,then NO ONE should have a problem with honoring this rightful powerful king without this rightful powerful king becoming the one who gave him his rights and power just because they BOTH receive honor and proskeneo together..I mean,c'mon!this is something earthly flawed unholy kings appointed by Jah received so how much more the flawless extraordinary faithful and true Lamb?Get over your prejudices and inferences and assumptions.Your traditions and creeds and preachers.Your refusal to exegete passages around the truth that no one who is God's son and agent and representative and servant can be God.
And today I get an "F" in English for my run ons and grammatical issues.And an "F" in creative writing for an amateurish "poem".And an "F" from trinitarians in overall presentation.And an "F" from Athanasius for caring more about what Jesus said than his creed.And an "F" from those weeping and gnashing their teeth ,or assuming I will be soon.Shame on all of you who have exploited JW's for their Armageddonal depictions of destruction in the fear inspiring battle,when you think anyone who isn't a trinitarian will burn alive for an eternity.Hypocrite.
I am cutting down on youtube witnessing.I thought if I stated it in a blog then I wouldn't go back on it.I would never want to repel anyone with my sometimes sarcastic nature or bold way of refuting the trinity or hell,the two lies I hate the most,so for the most part,I will stop.I've yet to experience one single person who was willing to reason or say "wow..that's a good point" unless they already believe like I do anyway.In the field ministry,which I have abandoned for years now as an inactive Jw,ppl were much more willing to reason and even study ,usually until someone's opposition would get to them.I can't even imagine being a trinitarian..I would have to scratch my head the whole time I prayed and redefine too many words and twist too many scriptures..it would be madness!I remember asking my pappaw who was a charismatic baptist preacher when I was a little girl why Jesus was God if he was God's son and he told me to just have faith.I remember showing him john 3:16 and saying something like "look Pappaw he sent his son and he says those not believing will die..will they die or will they burn forever?"..Even as a child,I understood these two simple truths and the way my pappaw would sweat and get all hyped up while he preached about hell etc..it scared me.I thought he would have a heart attack and I loved him more than anything.He was like a father to me.I still have and use his KJV that he left me..He had been friends with some Jehovah's witnesses who came and ate dinner with him and my mammaw on occasion and he loved JW's.I also discovered some very telling marks by pen in his bible.They were the ones about Jesus birth and the star leading the wise men(maybe he was contemplating the Christmas star and how it might not be a good thing?),Matthew 10:28 about the soul being destroyed along with the body,1 corinthians 14:27,28 about speaking in tongues,1 corinthians 15:27,28(which disproves the trinity),and rev 21 about the new heaven and the new earth.There were many more marked,but those are just a few..I basically think the JW's may have gotten to him,in a good way.There certainly was never a more selfless man..I remember one time he told me to open a drawer he had in his bedroom and it was full of dollar bills..there must've been AT least a hundred of them..he had been putting them in there when he had spare money just to one day see me smile about it.I wasted it all on babydolls and candy bars and Dr. Pepper and junk lol..Anyway,I pray for him a lot and hope to see him in the resurrection,him and my mammaw both,who was equally loving and selfless..Before she died,she and I used to joke about paradise and heaven.I told her she could watch me playing with polar bears and koalas and enjoying the beaches while she floated on a cloud in heaven.She admitted peace on earth would be wonderful but she said she was tired of toiling and didn't want to restore the earth or build houses lol...She did listen to the kingdom melodies cd that I gave her sometimes before she would go to sleep though..she liked the one about Ruth and Naomi.She used to ask me to sing it for her sometimes,which I'm sure she soon regretted as I am no Aguilera.Her favorite scripture was John 1:1 and she COULD NOT get past it.I'm not even sure she could've defined the trinity the right way to be honest..I mean who WOULDN'T be confused by such nonsense?
"I don't have three Gods just one!Three people who are each God but just one!"
umm..ObKb
And THE single MOST amazing thing..if you confess that Jesus is God's son and not God the son,in an orthodox Christian's mind,you will BURN baby BURN..and not just for a few minutes,or a few hours,or a few days,but FOR A LITERAL ETERNITY.Because apparently they think God is a maniac and the new heavens and new earth will definitely need a place of torment beneath em to keep em holy.As if someone who is voluntarily good can't be good without that kinda threat to their souls !SOOO frustrating.It blasphemes the holy and good name of God and it makes me angry.God is love.Those are three words that traditionalists need to meditate upon in a SERIOUS manner.Of course God has wrath for sin.Of course there can be no unholy unrepentant unloving rebellious sinner in the kingdom of God..that's why he will exterminate like pests any one like that.He doesn't wanna see it,much less hear it screaming for ever.
This is a schizophrenic sarcastic retarded "poem" I compiled and who knows who is speaking when..it's as confusing as revelation lol..if you aren't in the mood you may roll your eyes and close the page..anyways................
If he's one how is he three
If he's three how is he one
Stop lying mathematically
and redefining son
If he's greater how's he equal
If he's God,how'd he die?
If a movie has a sequel
does it come around the same time?
If he can't be likened to man how is he a man?
If he's omniscient how in the world can
he not know the day nor the revelation,in 1:1
If God can't have a father how is he a son?
If he's a spirit how is he still flesh?
And how he learned obedience is anyone's guess
Why did he have to be given everything?
God should not have to be given a thing!
Have you ever heard of anyone 200 percent?
Well now you have and don't ask why just have faith in it
When you hear "brought forth" "beginning" and "firstborn"
Be sure to redefine those simple little terms
Or else you'll burn forever with the simple little worms
Remember now that son doesn't mean what it always does
God is different you see and three it now means one
The holy spirit is conspicuously absent in all the visions of us
But don't ask anyone why..just walk by faith and trust.
God is "true God from true God" and it doesn't have to make sense
Later we'll add another and still say we're monotheists.
If there seems to be proof the trinity is bogus,remember the phrase "human nature"
and preach about hell and locusts and maybe noone will notice the paper
That the words "son and greater and dead and tempted and possessed" are written upon
Maybe distract a truth seeker with lies about hell and Jesus worship songs!
Heir,agent,and,again,son they don't mean a thing
Pay more attention to John 1:1 and stop it when you think!
And lest you start imagining that Jesus has a God more great
Turn right now and read on repeat John 20:28
And when Jesus is called God it means he is Jehovah see
And don't pretend there is such a thing as Hebrew law of agency.
When angels are called gods and kings are worshiped it has to be ignored!
Pretend it didn't happen and say Jesus has to be God!
And if a JW ever knocks on your door
they preach a different Jesus so their gospel is abhorred!
They say Jesus is God's own son
That he's king and messiah so you should run!
And if they tell you Jesus really died then they are lying for he is God!
if they tell you Jesus was really tempted they are lying for he is God!
If they tell you Jesus was REALLY a man on earth then they are lying for he is God!
Who cares what the bible says..texts can be twisted or blown off
Tradition and philosophy are the bee's knees
And Christmas is my favorite day,goodbye JW freaks!
Ya have so much to learn!
Don't ask me questions ya heretic.Burn baby burn!
I burned my Beduhn book I thought he was a scholar
If I ever see him around I'll choke him by the collar
He said the NWT was reliable and sound
What an idiot Satan wrote that book I've found
John 1:1 John 20:28 John 8:58..how many texts you willing to shun
To keep believing Jesus is the son of God and not God the son!!
haha,had to vent.I know it's muddled and childish but so am I sometimes ;-/.
I saw this as a comment on a youtube video..I don't know who made it..I forgot but I thought it was funny:
Jesus : My Father greater than i
Christians: Jesus and God are equal
Jesus : I can of myself do nothing
Christians : Jesus is as sovereign and as powerful as God
Jesus : I do not know of the Hour
Christians : Jesus is all knowing
Jesus : why do you call me good...?
Christians : Okay we will call you God then
Now I'll add a few of my own:
Jesus:Don't call me good.No one is good but one,God
Christians:Jesus is good therefore he has to be God.
Jesus:I have a God.
Christians:Jesus is that God he has.
Jesus:my will is different than God's on occasion
Christians:One person of a godhead had a different will than at least 1/3 of the godhead because he was 100 percent man as well remember..don't forget that that human limitation absolutely hindered that Almightiness on occasion.Cause remember if you are 100 percent God as well as 100 percent man,not only isn't it a fairy tale,but human natures can beat God natures sometimes apparently.It HAS to be that way to fit this pesky creed that spells out S.A.L.V.A.T.I.O.N.After all,they're all coequal. and consubstantial,which the bible is REAL clear about.
Jesus:I can do nothing of my own initiative but only what I behold my father doing.
Christians:hmm..he must be God.
Jews:he is making himself equal to God!
Christians:better believe those Jews!After all,they said he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath so they're always right!
Thomas:My Lord and my God!
Christians:God's agents and representatives and mighty beings have NEVER been called gods or God so Jesus is Jehovah!
Peter:you are the Christ,son of the living God
Christians:he meant that Jesus was God ya see
Disciples:puzzled that Jesus could do what they thought only God could do
Christians:see...they knew he was God!
Kellie:Jesus died
trinitarian:umm..one of his two natures died,but he wasn't really dead
Kellie:Where's your atonement
trinitarian:Jesus died
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:he did but he didn't
Kellie:Oh I see...makes PERFECT sense.
more ranting :-/
Yep I've heard one too many times that the worship of Jesus proves he is God.
Imagine I'm a big boss of a big company.I hire someone first to come in and do everything for me with my direction and supervision of course.I'm behind the scenes as the person I hired first hires others and accomplishes assigned tasks by my standards and appointment.Do I ever stop being boss?Does the person I use become me?Do I stop the other employees from revering him the same they revere me?Do they stop revering me?Do they forget my name because he exists?Do I stop appreciating and needing them and wanting their appreciation and reverence.?Do I stop being the one with the rewards ,the paychecks,the power to fire and hire?If the first person I hired understood that I was the BEST BOSS IN THE WORLD and he ,in fact,was the best employee in the world,do you really think he would forget everything I have given him or give me credit for his promotions and abundance?Again,does he BECOME ME because he does the things I tell him to do and reflects my personality and ways of doing things because not only does he appreciate and love me,but he knows that I know best.And when he behaves as I tell him to behave and represents me somewhere as coming in my name,are those people he goes to on my behalf to assume he IS me?What if he says "She is greater than me!" would you still have the right to assume he is me and I am him?Would this hold up logically?Is it possible to have more than one boss?More than one head over you?
Who glorified Jesus?
Why in the world can't Jesus be Proskeneo'd alongside his father as appointed heavenly king if even earthly kings were proskeneo'd along with Jehovah in the OT as ones who Jah gave glory to and can't it be in reconizance of not only the ones glorified BY JAH but also to the one who glorified them?And isn't this in fact stated FOR US In the bible that all things are FOR God's glory,as the honoring of his most beloved son absolutely IS?If Jehovah gave Jesus his rightful inheritances and glory as a mighty celestial being exalted to his right hand to defeat armies of evil at Armageddon and usher in a new heavens and a new earth,then NO ONE should have a problem with honoring this rightful powerful king without this rightful powerful king becoming the one who gave him his rights and power just because they BOTH receive honor and proskeneo together..I mean,c'mon!this is something earthly flawed unholy kings appointed by Jah received so how much more the flawless extraordinary faithful and true Lamb?Get over your prejudices and inferences and assumptions.Your traditions and creeds and preachers.Your refusal to exegete passages around the truth that no one who is God's son and agent and representative and servant can be God.
And today I get an "F" in English for my run ons and grammatical issues.And an "F" in creative writing for an amateurish "poem".And an "F" from trinitarians in overall presentation.And an "F" from Athanasius for caring more about what Jesus said than his creed.And an "F" from those weeping and gnashing their teeth ,or assuming I will be soon.Shame on all of you who have exploited JW's for their Armageddonal depictions of destruction in the fear inspiring battle,when you think anyone who isn't a trinitarian will burn alive for an eternity.Hypocrite.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)