This was written by someone else a while ago..Another Calvinism rant I would say!
http://hungertruth.blogspot.com/2006/10/synod-of-dort-fear-and-power-worship.html
Friday, August 28, 2009
Wednesday, August 26, 2009
Calvinism rant..
I had this up before then removed it for fear of offending Calvinists because it has kind of a harsh tone.But since it is all true and from my heart and meant to make Calvinists think about what they believe I shall repost.
Couple QUICK questions:Why was God so appalled at people's wicked behavior like burning their children in fire to Molech if he decreed and desired it?Was he pretending to be disgusted about something he in fact decreed?Why if we were created in God's image would we be sickened to contemplate the things that the God of Calvinism "decreed for his fine pleasure" and then think God whose love and justice and mercy and goodness are FAR superior to ours as fallen humans wouldn't?Similar to the "trinity" and "hellfire" "proof texts" there are FAR SUPERIOR interpretations to calvinist "proof texts" that gel with God's love in a much more tenable,reasonable and defensible way.
Jeremiah 19:5:They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind
1 John 4:8,16:God is love.
Contemplate what LOVE means,HONESTLY assessing it.That is his dominant quality.That is who HE IS.The God of Calvinism is like the original serpent who he condemns,causing everyone he chooses to be tortured in sadistic flames eternally for his pleasure,pure evil.It is hard enough explaining to non Christians why God PERMITS suffering..the God of Calvinism wouldn't exactly be easy to defend ,but,thankfully,He isn't the God of the bible.
If you're a Calvinist reading this,I hope you won't be quick to take offense but will be quick to read the bible in it's entirety and see what the scriptures speak loudly and clearly about from cover to cover.God has no part with evil.God is love.
God created everything PERFECT and then some of that creation REBELLED and BECAME evil without his assistance.Yes he allowed the downfall of man to occur because of the rebellion but he DID NOT decree the rebellion and he does not harbor the characteristics of Satan.He is NOT a sadistic evil deceiver and liar who said he was love but meant "I decree child rape".He warned Adam and Eve of the consequences of their idiotic decisions and they did NOT include him being the puppetmaster of every man who is evil and every man who is not.Just like Adam and Eve did,we have CHOICES ..Yes,God draws us.Yes,we can resist.Why?Because free will isn't a fantasy but a scriptural truth.And whoever says it isn't doesn't seem to understand that God is not partial just to be partial..He examines hearts and blesses those who draw close to him because they see him in the creation and understand his beauty and love.He wants those who want him and not those he has to make want him just because he can.That would be the equivalent of a man taking a woman hostage and forcing her to marry him just because he can..and then claiming that he is the epitome of love while also throwing whoever he he wants into an eternal fire for no reason but that it pleases him and somehow magnifies his holiness(even though this idea is NOT one in scripture)!.BUT he is love ..how ironic.
You can pretty much bet that if God wants us to be repulsed by the torture of people then he is repulsed by the torture of people and not pleased by torturing people infinitely AT ALL.Unless ,of course,our heartstrings are superior to God's.It's also a safe bet to assume that if God doesn't want us to be partial but to care lovingly for the most downtrodden that HE is NOT partial either and would never decree an orphan to an infinity in a literal lake of fire just because he can.Absurd.Yes,God's ways are higher than our ways.But,that does not mean sadism trumps love and mercy.And that the love and mercy we feel for fellow human beings without partiality is something too precious for God because supposedly wrath and sadistic decrees overtake those beautiful qualities he has and no mercy is up his sleeve in the flames of hell!The consistent testimony of scripture from beginning to end is that God is IMPARTIAL and LOVE,that his justice is temperd with mercy.Christ suffered an agonizing death ..God was merciful and let him die and not continue to be tortured.That's what will happen to us(agony that leads to death) if we have to pay for our own sins..that's right..our OWN sins..sins that God did NOT decree.God detests the evil and wickedness in the world which would logically lead any sincere heart to the conclusion that he did not DECREE IT.Now we are witnessing what happens when the world rebels against God and we needed to see this so we would know.So we would understand that he is the ONLY one who can bring peace and lead us in the way that is good and fruitful and blessed.If we did not see this now we wouldn't know and that is one reason he permits the suffering temporarily..he is not the Satanic one causing the sin but the loving one allowing it so we would know the hell it brings and could repent of it and live in a new world where it will exist no more where all things will be "made new" and there will be no more evil period,certainly not the flames of a fairy tale hell!
In Ezekial he is instructed to put a mark on the foreheads of those sighing and groaning over all the DETESTABLE things being done.Those with the mark would be saved because they weren't enjoying those detestable things but instead were disturbed by them.Now if God favors those who hate the detestable things would it REALLY make sense to think he himself decreed them and is in the same boat with the ones who took pleasure in them?I really cannot think of anything more despicable or heinous than hellfire.I sigh and groan over it.What about you?And don't even think about comin back at me with annihilation and how it will be detestable too.There is NO comparison.One is necessary and just and the punishment made clear for the wicked from Genesis on when God told Adam he would return to dust...the other is infinite sadism from a God people say is love..Hello atheist..meet the orthodox Christian God.Don't question anything,just embrace the tradition regardless of how illogical or asinine.Regardless of other interpretive possibilities that may be superior.Regardless of clear scriptural truths like God being impartial,merciful and loving and the wicked having to PERISH.In actuality,God is extremely partial,sadistic and unmerciful and tradition trumps logic and fact.Right?No balance with the Calvinist God.No impartiality.Quite frankly,no love.Yet,scripture says he IS love and he isn't partial.That is how I know right off the bat that Calvinism is false.Manmade.Just like love is God's dominant quality,it is also a grand theme in the bible which is absolutely in irrefutable opposition to Calvinism's whole mind and heartset.
God HATES wickedness and evil therefore he did not DECREE it.Common sense.If he has foreknowledge of something how would this be proof that he CAUSED it.Allowing and then being disgusted by it (soon to intervene) is a trillion miles away from decreeing it,taking pleasure in it and then extending his wrath into all eternity against poor people who were chosen by him for flames so that a sadistically "righteous" "new creation" could see how mean and big God can be even though he is supposed to epitomize love.
God's scales of justice are for the wicked to perish and "eye for an eye".The hellfire doctrine isn't an "eye" for anything!And it CERTAINLY isn't logical and there is NO excuse for taking a symbolic book like revelation and interpreting NON symbolic texts about the wicked perishing in light of the symbolic ones instead of the other way around.
May God's love and mercy and impartiality abound in your heart.You were created in his image with the capacity to be reasonable and to question what you're taught from men.Don't cease ever questioning what you're taught from men.Don't let your heart be hardened to the feeling that a God who is the one of Calvinism and Orthodox Christianity with the whole "hellfire thing" and "partial thing" is reasonably NOT LOVE.Then you may find the true One from scripture who is and embrace worshipping him in truth.
Contemplate(seriously) the life of Christ..did he seem like a man who would go around tapping heads that he desired to torment eternally and letting the heads untapped survive the wrath and live in "peace" while enjoying the cacophany of screams of the less fortunate (or maybe they don't even have to hear them..that would be better..but still unbearably HORRENDOUS for ANYONE righteous just knowing this was goin on)?Did he seem like a man who would look at two children and decide to torture one and save the other just because he's powerful?Did he seem like a man who scouted "vessels" for wrath even though he healed ALL the sick and embraced all who came to him?Was he love or was he partial and angry at those who he decreed to be his vessels of wrath just because he takes pleasure in seeing people suffer because it magnifies his "holiness"?The Calvinist Jesus is not the bible's Jesus.This should be pretty clear.And as a Calvinist,did you become one AFTER hearing intricate arguments and justifications from men OR did you get the impression from scripture itself that God's love is trumped by power trips?The wisdom of men like James White is foolishness to God. A well constructed ridiculously sharp argument can make ANYTHING sound plausible..but is that what God wants us to do?Ignore the simplicity of texts and take a few that SEEM to support something and make sure we make the entire bible fit it by twisting texts everywhere even though we should see if these texts CLEARLY in the minority can't conform to the entire bible.And they can.There are reasonable and superior interpretations available for Calvinist's delight if only they'll partake.
To reiiterate and to be realistic.God is impartial..God is love.Even when his severe wrath needs to be satisfied and his holiness magnified..the worst that happened was agony then death.And only against those willful unrepentant sinners that had the CHOICE to sin or not..he wasn't pulling their strings to make 'em.And if he was,he never told us this.
I'm just putting one part of this series here about Romans chapter 9(James White's lifeblood)but I urge you to watch all (I think 6) parts.These are some superior interpretations to the traditional Calvinist ones that are IN LINE with the TOTALITY of scripture which is that God is love.In Calvinism,God does despicable things that are not in harmony with the personality the bible provides for Him.As for this guy's beliefs,I'm sure I would disagree with him on MANY,but not on his thoughts about calvinism. Search:Romans 9: Predestination or Free Will? on youtube for the rest of this series.Enjoy!I need to rewatch it myself!
Honestly.I didn't even know how strongly I felt about Calvinism till I wrote this.If this defense against it seems harsh..that would be because there is no reason for me not to scream from the rooftop that God is love.. hell is a lie.. and God is not a tyrant.I am a Christian BECAUSE God is love.BECAUSE he is impartial.AND because He gave us free will,allowing us to choose him or not.We are free creatures.I appreciate that!THANK YOU GOD.
"I never know what I think about something until I read what I've written on it"~William Faulkner
Couple QUICK questions:Why was God so appalled at people's wicked behavior like burning their children in fire to Molech if he decreed and desired it?Was he pretending to be disgusted about something he in fact decreed?Why if we were created in God's image would we be sickened to contemplate the things that the God of Calvinism "decreed for his fine pleasure" and then think God whose love and justice and mercy and goodness are FAR superior to ours as fallen humans wouldn't?Similar to the "trinity" and "hellfire" "proof texts" there are FAR SUPERIOR interpretations to calvinist "proof texts" that gel with God's love in a much more tenable,reasonable and defensible way.
Jeremiah 19:5:They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind
1 John 4:8,16:God is love.
Contemplate what LOVE means,HONESTLY assessing it.That is his dominant quality.That is who HE IS.The God of Calvinism is like the original serpent who he condemns,causing everyone he chooses to be tortured in sadistic flames eternally for his pleasure,pure evil.It is hard enough explaining to non Christians why God PERMITS suffering..the God of Calvinism wouldn't exactly be easy to defend ,but,thankfully,He isn't the God of the bible.
If you're a Calvinist reading this,I hope you won't be quick to take offense but will be quick to read the bible in it's entirety and see what the scriptures speak loudly and clearly about from cover to cover.God has no part with evil.God is love.
God created everything PERFECT and then some of that creation REBELLED and BECAME evil without his assistance.Yes he allowed the downfall of man to occur because of the rebellion but he DID NOT decree the rebellion and he does not harbor the characteristics of Satan.He is NOT a sadistic evil deceiver and liar who said he was love but meant "I decree child rape".He warned Adam and Eve of the consequences of their idiotic decisions and they did NOT include him being the puppetmaster of every man who is evil and every man who is not.Just like Adam and Eve did,we have CHOICES ..Yes,God draws us.Yes,we can resist.Why?Because free will isn't a fantasy but a scriptural truth.And whoever says it isn't doesn't seem to understand that God is not partial just to be partial..He examines hearts and blesses those who draw close to him because they see him in the creation and understand his beauty and love.He wants those who want him and not those he has to make want him just because he can.That would be the equivalent of a man taking a woman hostage and forcing her to marry him just because he can..and then claiming that he is the epitome of love while also throwing whoever he he wants into an eternal fire for no reason but that it pleases him and somehow magnifies his holiness(even though this idea is NOT one in scripture)!.BUT he is love ..how ironic.
You can pretty much bet that if God wants us to be repulsed by the torture of people then he is repulsed by the torture of people and not pleased by torturing people infinitely AT ALL.Unless ,of course,our heartstrings are superior to God's.It's also a safe bet to assume that if God doesn't want us to be partial but to care lovingly for the most downtrodden that HE is NOT partial either and would never decree an orphan to an infinity in a literal lake of fire just because he can.Absurd.Yes,God's ways are higher than our ways.But,that does not mean sadism trumps love and mercy.And that the love and mercy we feel for fellow human beings without partiality is something too precious for God because supposedly wrath and sadistic decrees overtake those beautiful qualities he has and no mercy is up his sleeve in the flames of hell!The consistent testimony of scripture from beginning to end is that God is IMPARTIAL and LOVE,that his justice is temperd with mercy.Christ suffered an agonizing death ..God was merciful and let him die and not continue to be tortured.That's what will happen to us(agony that leads to death) if we have to pay for our own sins..that's right..our OWN sins..sins that God did NOT decree.God detests the evil and wickedness in the world which would logically lead any sincere heart to the conclusion that he did not DECREE IT.Now we are witnessing what happens when the world rebels against God and we needed to see this so we would know.So we would understand that he is the ONLY one who can bring peace and lead us in the way that is good and fruitful and blessed.If we did not see this now we wouldn't know and that is one reason he permits the suffering temporarily..he is not the Satanic one causing the sin but the loving one allowing it so we would know the hell it brings and could repent of it and live in a new world where it will exist no more where all things will be "made new" and there will be no more evil period,certainly not the flames of a fairy tale hell!
In Ezekial he is instructed to put a mark on the foreheads of those sighing and groaning over all the DETESTABLE things being done.Those with the mark would be saved because they weren't enjoying those detestable things but instead were disturbed by them.Now if God favors those who hate the detestable things would it REALLY make sense to think he himself decreed them and is in the same boat with the ones who took pleasure in them?I really cannot think of anything more despicable or heinous than hellfire.I sigh and groan over it.What about you?And don't even think about comin back at me with annihilation and how it will be detestable too.There is NO comparison.One is necessary and just and the punishment made clear for the wicked from Genesis on when God told Adam he would return to dust...the other is infinite sadism from a God people say is love..Hello atheist..meet the orthodox Christian God.Don't question anything,just embrace the tradition regardless of how illogical or asinine.Regardless of other interpretive possibilities that may be superior.Regardless of clear scriptural truths like God being impartial,merciful and loving and the wicked having to PERISH.In actuality,God is extremely partial,sadistic and unmerciful and tradition trumps logic and fact.Right?No balance with the Calvinist God.No impartiality.Quite frankly,no love.Yet,scripture says he IS love and he isn't partial.That is how I know right off the bat that Calvinism is false.Manmade.Just like love is God's dominant quality,it is also a grand theme in the bible which is absolutely in irrefutable opposition to Calvinism's whole mind and heartset.
God HATES wickedness and evil therefore he did not DECREE it.Common sense.If he has foreknowledge of something how would this be proof that he CAUSED it.Allowing and then being disgusted by it (soon to intervene) is a trillion miles away from decreeing it,taking pleasure in it and then extending his wrath into all eternity against poor people who were chosen by him for flames so that a sadistically "righteous" "new creation" could see how mean and big God can be even though he is supposed to epitomize love.
God's scales of justice are for the wicked to perish and "eye for an eye".The hellfire doctrine isn't an "eye" for anything!And it CERTAINLY isn't logical and there is NO excuse for taking a symbolic book like revelation and interpreting NON symbolic texts about the wicked perishing in light of the symbolic ones instead of the other way around.
May God's love and mercy and impartiality abound in your heart.You were created in his image with the capacity to be reasonable and to question what you're taught from men.Don't cease ever questioning what you're taught from men.Don't let your heart be hardened to the feeling that a God who is the one of Calvinism and Orthodox Christianity with the whole "hellfire thing" and "partial thing" is reasonably NOT LOVE.Then you may find the true One from scripture who is and embrace worshipping him in truth.
Contemplate(seriously) the life of Christ..did he seem like a man who would go around tapping heads that he desired to torment eternally and letting the heads untapped survive the wrath and live in "peace" while enjoying the cacophany of screams of the less fortunate (or maybe they don't even have to hear them..that would be better..but still unbearably HORRENDOUS for ANYONE righteous just knowing this was goin on)?Did he seem like a man who would look at two children and decide to torture one and save the other just because he's powerful?Did he seem like a man who scouted "vessels" for wrath even though he healed ALL the sick and embraced all who came to him?Was he love or was he partial and angry at those who he decreed to be his vessels of wrath just because he takes pleasure in seeing people suffer because it magnifies his "holiness"?The Calvinist Jesus is not the bible's Jesus.This should be pretty clear.And as a Calvinist,did you become one AFTER hearing intricate arguments and justifications from men OR did you get the impression from scripture itself that God's love is trumped by power trips?The wisdom of men like James White is foolishness to God. A well constructed ridiculously sharp argument can make ANYTHING sound plausible..but is that what God wants us to do?Ignore the simplicity of texts and take a few that SEEM to support something and make sure we make the entire bible fit it by twisting texts everywhere even though we should see if these texts CLEARLY in the minority can't conform to the entire bible.And they can.There are reasonable and superior interpretations available for Calvinist's delight if only they'll partake.
To reiiterate and to be realistic.God is impartial..God is love.Even when his severe wrath needs to be satisfied and his holiness magnified..the worst that happened was agony then death.And only against those willful unrepentant sinners that had the CHOICE to sin or not..he wasn't pulling their strings to make 'em.And if he was,he never told us this.
I'm just putting one part of this series here about Romans chapter 9(James White's lifeblood)but I urge you to watch all (I think 6) parts.These are some superior interpretations to the traditional Calvinist ones that are IN LINE with the TOTALITY of scripture which is that God is love.In Calvinism,God does despicable things that are not in harmony with the personality the bible provides for Him.As for this guy's beliefs,I'm sure I would disagree with him on MANY,but not on his thoughts about calvinism. Search:Romans 9: Predestination or Free Will? on youtube for the rest of this series.Enjoy!I need to rewatch it myself!
Honestly.I didn't even know how strongly I felt about Calvinism till I wrote this.If this defense against it seems harsh..that would be because there is no reason for me not to scream from the rooftop that God is love.. hell is a lie.. and God is not a tyrant.I am a Christian BECAUSE God is love.BECAUSE he is impartial.AND because He gave us free will,allowing us to choose him or not.We are free creatures.I appreciate that!THANK YOU GOD.
"I never know what I think about something until I read what I've written on it"~William Faulkner
Wednesday, August 5, 2009
Answering a trinitarian's comment..
Answering a comment on my last blog:
SonOfAJewishCarpenter said...
you said:
" “…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
I already covered how Jesus had to be MADE LORD and I confess that readily and without hesitation.I also confess that God raised him from death and that he is alive to plead for me now at God's right hand.Yet to Christians I'm not a christian at all.Interesting."
What is interesting about this comment is that you seem more interested in confessing that Jesus was MADE LORD more than you are in confessing him as YOUR LORD. Regardless of your oppinion of Him, He IS soverign over you and ALL of creation.
Jesus is the only One who can save people.
His name is the only power in the world
that has been given to save people.
We must be saved through him.
Acts 4:12
Jesus saith unto him,
I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me;
John 14:6
I, even I, am the LORD;
and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:11
SonOfAJewishCarpenter,
Thanks for your comment.The following is said assuming you're trinitarian..
Yes,Jesus had to be made Lord.And yes,he is my Lord.And no he couldn't have saved if he hadn't been sent forth to do so by his father.God so loved the world that he gave his special Son to die for us.I sincerely hope you understand the sacrifice Jesus's father made at least as much as the one his Son did.And that Jesus worships his father as the Only True God so there is no reason anyone else shouldn't.Jesus said "We worship what WE know.."..including himself as One who worships his father in spirit and truth.Does his father worship him?If not,there is no coequality.An Almighty God in no way logically would be worshipping someone else called Almighty God within his own "being"..That is unreasonable in the highest degree and not supported in scripture or explicitly stated anywhere.Also,that would equal two Almighties already regardless of what ANYONE says to make it "go away".Even if they share the SAME "substance" within the 1 "godhead" as separate individuals it would STILL equal 2 Almighty Gods.
I don't disagree with any scripture you provide.Jesus is absolutely the way,the truth,the life.His father used him to save us,making him mediator and king and Lord.Why shouldn't he?He's a proud father with an obedient faithful and inimitable Son he "approves",who is "beloved".The best proof Jesus was created ?He is called "God's Son."
John 10:34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “you are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?
"God's Son" would be HIGHLY illogical language to use for someone who IS "TRUE God".You won't find the bible itself stating that Jesus shares God's "essence" or "nature" as one of three persons in God's "being" so no one should formulate a doctrine to accomodate philosophies that support this.
I am not demoting Christ..I am recognizing his God-given position as the Second Most High over all the Universe,never said to exist within the same "being" as the "Most High" so there is no reason for me to put him there.
Recognizing that Jesus had to be "Made Lord" aids in understanding WHY he IS Lord.Take heed!Even the name that is the only one that can save us under heaven was GIVEN him.Keep in mind the father's "equal" should NEVER have to be given anything at all,from a name,to a power,to a kingdom,to a revelation. God made him heir and loved him.
As For Jesus being Sovereign and Almighty,even if I surrendered that point it would only be possible because HIS God made him so which could only mean he would STILL not be the SAME TRUE GOD his father is OR equal as his authority is that which had to be gifted from a superior.God has no superiors,certainly not within his own "being"! God works through Christ's agency by means of the holy spirit so powerfully that Jesus can do what his father does if his father grants it.(acts 2:22,John 3:34)If it's not granted to Jesus or GIVEN him from his own God,Jesus wouldn't have anything at all,excluding the possibility that he is the true God.He lives BECAUSE of his father no?(John 5:26)And forever now because the One he said was greater and the only One good(without any qualification that only his "flesh" was speaking and not his ENTIRE person as the Christ of God..no inference needed) raised him from a genuine death.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ'
So again,WHY is Jesus Lord,WHY is he savior, and WHY is he alive at all?
As for absolute statements in scripture,they are sometimes qualified in other texts ..For instance,Jehovah is the ONLY savior BUT
1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bible in basic English)
Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb's younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God's world translation)
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)
Sorry..I'm on some caffeine and got "long winded" ;)
Thanks for reading my blog!
SonOfAJewishCarpenter said...
you said:
" “…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
I already covered how Jesus had to be MADE LORD and I confess that readily and without hesitation.I also confess that God raised him from death and that he is alive to plead for me now at God's right hand.Yet to Christians I'm not a christian at all.Interesting."
What is interesting about this comment is that you seem more interested in confessing that Jesus was MADE LORD more than you are in confessing him as YOUR LORD. Regardless of your oppinion of Him, He IS soverign over you and ALL of creation.
Jesus is the only One who can save people.
His name is the only power in the world
that has been given to save people.
We must be saved through him.
Acts 4:12
Jesus saith unto him,
I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me;
John 14:6
I, even I, am the LORD;
and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:11
SonOfAJewishCarpenter,
Thanks for your comment.The following is said assuming you're trinitarian..
Yes,Jesus had to be made Lord.And yes,he is my Lord.And no he couldn't have saved if he hadn't been sent forth to do so by his father.God so loved the world that he gave his special Son to die for us.I sincerely hope you understand the sacrifice Jesus's father made at least as much as the one his Son did.And that Jesus worships his father as the Only True God so there is no reason anyone else shouldn't.Jesus said "We worship what WE know.."..including himself as One who worships his father in spirit and truth.Does his father worship him?If not,there is no coequality.An Almighty God in no way logically would be worshipping someone else called Almighty God within his own "being"..That is unreasonable in the highest degree and not supported in scripture or explicitly stated anywhere.Also,that would equal two Almighties already regardless of what ANYONE says to make it "go away".Even if they share the SAME "substance" within the 1 "godhead" as separate individuals it would STILL equal 2 Almighty Gods.
I don't disagree with any scripture you provide.Jesus is absolutely the way,the truth,the life.His father used him to save us,making him mediator and king and Lord.Why shouldn't he?He's a proud father with an obedient faithful and inimitable Son he "approves",who is "beloved".The best proof Jesus was created ?He is called "God's Son."
John 10:34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “you are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?
"God's Son" would be HIGHLY illogical language to use for someone who IS "TRUE God".You won't find the bible itself stating that Jesus shares God's "essence" or "nature" as one of three persons in God's "being" so no one should formulate a doctrine to accomodate philosophies that support this.
I am not demoting Christ..I am recognizing his God-given position as the Second Most High over all the Universe,never said to exist within the same "being" as the "Most High" so there is no reason for me to put him there.
Recognizing that Jesus had to be "Made Lord" aids in understanding WHY he IS Lord.Take heed!Even the name that is the only one that can save us under heaven was GIVEN him.Keep in mind the father's "equal" should NEVER have to be given anything at all,from a name,to a power,to a kingdom,to a revelation. God made him heir and loved him.
As For Jesus being Sovereign and Almighty,even if I surrendered that point it would only be possible because HIS God made him so which could only mean he would STILL not be the SAME TRUE GOD his father is OR equal as his authority is that which had to be gifted from a superior.God has no superiors,certainly not within his own "being"! God works through Christ's agency by means of the holy spirit so powerfully that Jesus can do what his father does if his father grants it.(acts 2:22,John 3:34)If it's not granted to Jesus or GIVEN him from his own God,Jesus wouldn't have anything at all,excluding the possibility that he is the true God.He lives BECAUSE of his father no?(John 5:26)And forever now because the One he said was greater and the only One good(without any qualification that only his "flesh" was speaking and not his ENTIRE person as the Christ of God..no inference needed) raised him from a genuine death.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ'
So again,WHY is Jesus Lord,WHY is he savior, and WHY is he alive at all?
As for absolute statements in scripture,they are sometimes qualified in other texts ..For instance,Jehovah is the ONLY savior BUT
1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bible in basic English)
Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb's younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God's world translation)
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)
Sorry..I'm on some caffeine and got "long winded" ;)
Thanks for reading my blog!
Tuesday, July 14, 2009
Jesus is...
I'm gonna do some scriptural hopping to find out the clear biblical formula as opposed to any creeds that were formulated in councils of men for who exactly Jesus is.
Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. —1 John 5:1-5
The bible says that we can be born of God and that we are if we confess Christ and that God raised him from the dead ..So if we are born of God and we aren't the same God he is why is Christ if he is born of God as well?
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” —1 John 4:14, 15
And what does Son of God mean exactly?
Matthew 3:17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
John 10:36: do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?
So Jesus is God's son and that is what son of God means. He is the most special one,made firstborn heir to a kingdom like no other but yet he remains a son.
Solomon, Adam, and Israel all sons of God in a special way.If God calls you his son it does not mean you are him but that he loves you dearly and you are favored.
One question I've heard is why did the Jews want to stone him for saying he was God's son if so many are..I can only assume because they thought he was somehow usurping God's sole rights but they were wrong.Scriptures let us know people were amazed that God had given such authority to a man!So no one thought he WAS GOD!They also knew he was making claims to be the Messiah but they simply didn't believe it.
He is “the apostle and high priest of our confession”—the “one mediator between God and men” (Heb. 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5).
So here we have some more clear succint formulas of who Christ is ..high priest and mediator.
So he is high priest and high priests in scripture are to be served which does not make them God but those who have been appointed by God himself to be so.
According to the manner of Melchizedek is his priesthood..one that is not from appointment from man but from God and eternal once having begun.
“God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ” —Acts 2:36
Interestingly,trinitarians have a God who had to be made Lord or his human nature did I should say which really doesn't make any sense at all since he is still one hundred percent man right?So why did his human nature have to be made Lord if he already was 100 percent God and his human nature supposedly retained nothing but humanity?Either his human nature is no longer really a human nature because it had to be made Lord supposedly again OR it is still 100 percent human as I've heard trinitarians say..Which is it?Both make moot of scripture..that Jesus was a perfect man who was exalted to the right hand of his father because he obeyed God not because he is God.
I'm probably inadvertantly misrepresenting something here in regards to the "2 natures" thing in my ditziness..if so,forgive me.
“…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
I already covered how Jesus had to be MADE LORD and I confess that readily and without hesitation.I also confess that God raised him from death and that he is alive to plead for me now at God's right hand.Yet to Christians I'm not a christian at all.Interesting.
What does it mean when the bible says Jesus dies?How does the bible define death?.First let us establish that souls can die and be destroyed and perish.(Ez 18:4,Matt 10:28,James5:20)Having said that let's go further
Ecc 9:5:the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all(excluding the possibility that one is breathing moving or existing elsewhere)
Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes
back to his ground;In that day his thoughts do perish.
So since Jesus died and this is God's definition of death there is no reason to think Jesus was anything but completely gone until his God raised him in the 3rd day.Any other confession is a manmade one based on philosophy of man and is frankly Gnostic..So on the third day God gave Christ back his spirit or his breath and animating force so that he could breathe move and live again.I confess this ..Do you?Do you confess that Christ was dead in a grave and not alive at all with no thoughts for 3 days?
Moving on..John lets us know why he wrote his book..why he wrote the book of John:
“These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name.” —John 20:31
Just because he has been appointed to a position that no other son has ever been exalted does not mean he is anything but God's most beloved exalted son.
Isaiah 11:1-3 "1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"
Matthew 12:18 "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him (Jesus), and he will proclaim justice to the nations."
So we know from these that God's spirit rests upon his awesome servant Jesus..Jesus is not a servant of his own being but a servant of his God who allows him to live and breathe and gives him his orders and will..
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·rene´, a man publicly shown by God to you through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know, 24 But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.
So death held him fast for three days but did not continue to.As promised,his God raised him on the 3rd day.
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus
So again we have Jesus being nothing but DISTINGUISHED from the Most High of the OT as the most high's servant and son.never said to be a member of his being..anywhere ..ever..
Acts 3:22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. you must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you. 23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 26 To you first God, after raising up his Servant, sent him forth to bless you by turning each one away from your wicked deeds.”
Here were more testimonies from God-breathed scripture who Jesus is.No need to infer anything further than what's given.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
So what we have here is a lovely picture of someone like the SON OF MAN being GIVEN a rulership from a loving father aka the Ancient of Days and being distinguished from that one as the one who had to be given what he has and would have to here be excluded from himself being the Ancient of Days unless you're willing to only be traditional and philosophical as opposed to succintly biblical..The Ancient of Days would be the supreme sovereign Lord of the universe the Most High Jehovah God almighty.. God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob God of my appointed king and consecrated Lord Jesus Christ..
Again I would like you ask why a human nature had to be given anything given the fact that it is still one hundred percent human and the God nature should've already had this.And has it ever stricken you as bizarre at all to blame every reliance and declaration of inferiority of Jesus's to a nature and not just Jesus himself,who never qualified this for us?
1 Corinthians 15:27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Let's never forget to praise the God of Jesus Christ and let us cease to worship anyone else as the same God who is the God of Jesus Christ.
John 17:3:. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
And this isn't a "joint object" as I've heard James White say or two persons existing in the same God as trinitarians boldly say but a father who is the only true God and his son who he sent forth to save us who will always serve him and worship him as his one and only True Most High God.And because of Jesus faith obedience and goodness and love God has exalted him to be our Lord and King and second most high over all the universe..Praise God for his power to do this.Praise Jesus for his exalted status and love and goodness and exceptionalness..Praise Jesus for all the same reasons that God blessed his most exalted servant and son.Because God loves him and tells us to.Because he is deserving king and Lord.
So if you're the one who thinks that these statements and BIBLICALLY based "givens" are not good enough "formulas" for who Christ really is then I would say you have a problem with scripture itself ..If Jesus being called God on a literal few occasions in a representational and authoritative sense,authority that he had to be GIVEN cannot be reconciled in your mind with the sheer irrefutable Jewish Monotheism without having to add 2 persons to God's "being" then imo there's a problem.In light of the clear and tenable proof that there is precedent in scripture for others to bear the name of God and the title of God that he places within them. They are acting on his behalf.If they have been given power from the Most High himself.
3 simple truths..1.No one may see God and live.Jesus has been seen and not just in manifestations and agents revealing him but literally seen and people continued to live.2.God cannot die and Jesus can and did.3.Calling someone who is God "God's son" would be misleading and ridiculous.
Reminds me of Jesus saying we need to be like children..I knew as a child God's son wasn't God and told the preachers around me..I did not listen to them when they insisted he was.I knew it wasn't possible.And quickly recognized scriptural precedent for others bearing the title god..And doesn't the bible say that the kingdom belongs to childlike ones?Is it really appropriate to not trust that God would've revealed a distinctive formula so we would at least know he was three persons?Even IF we couldn't grasp it?Do you really think he wanted to conceal his identity of a composition of three persons so that 400 yrs later trinitarians could arrogantly proclaim that you cannot know who he is except through divine revelation and that we should not question this "orthodox" "truth" and are in fact threatened with title "heretic" and "cultist" if we do.Suddenly the logic and reason and truth seeking God endowed and blessed me with isn't valid and must be ignored?Suddenly I am unchristian for only being willing to confess Christ as Messiah,Son of the Living God?
For those of you who condemn people like me to either hell or something else for not confessing that Christ is the second person of a triune God then your condemnation is unfounded given my ready willingness to confess that Christ is the beloved most exalted of God's sons who has been anointed as Christ by the God he himself serves and worships ...all I can say is..who are you to judge someone for confessing what the bible says we must confess for salvation and then telling me I have none?
Now the scriptures I've provided are the overwhelming testimony of Christ's identity.The trinity "proof texts" are never clear and can all be found wanting even in the "orthodox" community itself..conflicting views and interpretations..So when you have a doctrine that forces you to infer,be dogmatic about irrefutably precarious texts to formulate doctrine not even based on scriptural terms,and throw reason by the wayside while embracing philosophical terminology the bible never uses..then houston we have a problemo.
In conclusion,Jesus is :1.High Priest..2.Appointed as Lord..3.Mediator..4.The Christ of God..4.God's Son..5.servant of and beloved One of God...6.Second only to God and worthy of our confession, faith, and honor.
Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. —1 John 5:1-5
The bible says that we can be born of God and that we are if we confess Christ and that God raised him from the dead ..So if we are born of God and we aren't the same God he is why is Christ if he is born of God as well?
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” —1 John 4:14, 15
And what does Son of God mean exactly?
Matthew 3:17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
John 10:36: do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?
So Jesus is God's son and that is what son of God means. He is the most special one,made firstborn heir to a kingdom like no other but yet he remains a son.
Solomon, Adam, and Israel all sons of God in a special way.If God calls you his son it does not mean you are him but that he loves you dearly and you are favored.
One question I've heard is why did the Jews want to stone him for saying he was God's son if so many are..I can only assume because they thought he was somehow usurping God's sole rights but they were wrong.Scriptures let us know people were amazed that God had given such authority to a man!So no one thought he WAS GOD!They also knew he was making claims to be the Messiah but they simply didn't believe it.
He is “the apostle and high priest of our confession”—the “one mediator between God and men” (Heb. 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5).
So here we have some more clear succint formulas of who Christ is ..high priest and mediator.
So he is high priest and high priests in scripture are to be served which does not make them God but those who have been appointed by God himself to be so.
According to the manner of Melchizedek is his priesthood..one that is not from appointment from man but from God and eternal once having begun.
“God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ” —Acts 2:36
Interestingly,trinitarians have a God who had to be made Lord or his human nature did I should say which really doesn't make any sense at all since he is still one hundred percent man right?So why did his human nature have to be made Lord if he already was 100 percent God and his human nature supposedly retained nothing but humanity?Either his human nature is no longer really a human nature because it had to be made Lord supposedly again OR it is still 100 percent human as I've heard trinitarians say..Which is it?Both make moot of scripture..that Jesus was a perfect man who was exalted to the right hand of his father because he obeyed God not because he is God.
I'm probably inadvertantly misrepresenting something here in regards to the "2 natures" thing in my ditziness..if so,forgive me.
“…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
I already covered how Jesus had to be MADE LORD and I confess that readily and without hesitation.I also confess that God raised him from death and that he is alive to plead for me now at God's right hand.Yet to Christians I'm not a christian at all.Interesting.
What does it mean when the bible says Jesus dies?How does the bible define death?.First let us establish that souls can die and be destroyed and perish.(Ez 18:4,Matt 10:28,James5:20)Having said that let's go further
Ecc 9:5:the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all(excluding the possibility that one is breathing moving or existing elsewhere)
Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes
back to his ground;In that day his thoughts do perish.
So since Jesus died and this is God's definition of death there is no reason to think Jesus was anything but completely gone until his God raised him in the 3rd day.Any other confession is a manmade one based on philosophy of man and is frankly Gnostic..So on the third day God gave Christ back his spirit or his breath and animating force so that he could breathe move and live again.I confess this ..Do you?Do you confess that Christ was dead in a grave and not alive at all with no thoughts for 3 days?
Moving on..John lets us know why he wrote his book..why he wrote the book of John:
“These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name.” —John 20:31
Just because he has been appointed to a position that no other son has ever been exalted does not mean he is anything but God's most beloved exalted son.
Isaiah 11:1-3 "1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"
Matthew 12:18 "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him (Jesus), and he will proclaim justice to the nations."
So we know from these that God's spirit rests upon his awesome servant Jesus..Jesus is not a servant of his own being but a servant of his God who allows him to live and breathe and gives him his orders and will..
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·rene´, a man publicly shown by God to you through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know, 24 But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.
So death held him fast for three days but did not continue to.As promised,his God raised him on the 3rd day.
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus
So again we have Jesus being nothing but DISTINGUISHED from the Most High of the OT as the most high's servant and son.never said to be a member of his being..anywhere ..ever..
Acts 3:22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. you must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you. 23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 26 To you first God, after raising up his Servant, sent him forth to bless you by turning each one away from your wicked deeds.”
Here were more testimonies from God-breathed scripture who Jesus is.No need to infer anything further than what's given.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
So what we have here is a lovely picture of someone like the SON OF MAN being GIVEN a rulership from a loving father aka the Ancient of Days and being distinguished from that one as the one who had to be given what he has and would have to here be excluded from himself being the Ancient of Days unless you're willing to only be traditional and philosophical as opposed to succintly biblical..The Ancient of Days would be the supreme sovereign Lord of the universe the Most High Jehovah God almighty.. God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob God of my appointed king and consecrated Lord Jesus Christ..
Again I would like you ask why a human nature had to be given anything given the fact that it is still one hundred percent human and the God nature should've already had this.And has it ever stricken you as bizarre at all to blame every reliance and declaration of inferiority of Jesus's to a nature and not just Jesus himself,who never qualified this for us?
1 Corinthians 15:27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Let's never forget to praise the God of Jesus Christ and let us cease to worship anyone else as the same God who is the God of Jesus Christ.
John 17:3:. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
And this isn't a "joint object" as I've heard James White say or two persons existing in the same God as trinitarians boldly say but a father who is the only true God and his son who he sent forth to save us who will always serve him and worship him as his one and only True Most High God.And because of Jesus faith obedience and goodness and love God has exalted him to be our Lord and King and second most high over all the universe..Praise God for his power to do this.Praise Jesus for his exalted status and love and goodness and exceptionalness..Praise Jesus for all the same reasons that God blessed his most exalted servant and son.Because God loves him and tells us to.Because he is deserving king and Lord.
So if you're the one who thinks that these statements and BIBLICALLY based "givens" are not good enough "formulas" for who Christ really is then I would say you have a problem with scripture itself ..If Jesus being called God on a literal few occasions in a representational and authoritative sense,authority that he had to be GIVEN cannot be reconciled in your mind with the sheer irrefutable Jewish Monotheism without having to add 2 persons to God's "being" then imo there's a problem.In light of the clear and tenable proof that there is precedent in scripture for others to bear the name of God and the title of God that he places within them. They are acting on his behalf.If they have been given power from the Most High himself.
3 simple truths..1.No one may see God and live.Jesus has been seen and not just in manifestations and agents revealing him but literally seen and people continued to live.2.God cannot die and Jesus can and did.3.Calling someone who is God "God's son" would be misleading and ridiculous.
Reminds me of Jesus saying we need to be like children..I knew as a child God's son wasn't God and told the preachers around me..I did not listen to them when they insisted he was.I knew it wasn't possible.And quickly recognized scriptural precedent for others bearing the title god..And doesn't the bible say that the kingdom belongs to childlike ones?Is it really appropriate to not trust that God would've revealed a distinctive formula so we would at least know he was three persons?Even IF we couldn't grasp it?Do you really think he wanted to conceal his identity of a composition of three persons so that 400 yrs later trinitarians could arrogantly proclaim that you cannot know who he is except through divine revelation and that we should not question this "orthodox" "truth" and are in fact threatened with title "heretic" and "cultist" if we do.Suddenly the logic and reason and truth seeking God endowed and blessed me with isn't valid and must be ignored?Suddenly I am unchristian for only being willing to confess Christ as Messiah,Son of the Living God?
For those of you who condemn people like me to either hell or something else for not confessing that Christ is the second person of a triune God then your condemnation is unfounded given my ready willingness to confess that Christ is the beloved most exalted of God's sons who has been anointed as Christ by the God he himself serves and worships ...all I can say is..who are you to judge someone for confessing what the bible says we must confess for salvation and then telling me I have none?
Now the scriptures I've provided are the overwhelming testimony of Christ's identity.The trinity "proof texts" are never clear and can all be found wanting even in the "orthodox" community itself..conflicting views and interpretations..So when you have a doctrine that forces you to infer,be dogmatic about irrefutably precarious texts to formulate doctrine not even based on scriptural terms,and throw reason by the wayside while embracing philosophical terminology the bible never uses..then houston we have a problemo.
In conclusion,Jesus is :1.High Priest..2.Appointed as Lord..3.Mediator..4.The Christ of God..4.God's Son..5.servant of and beloved One of God...6.Second only to God and worthy of our confession, faith, and honor.
Wednesday, July 8, 2009
HeLLL naw.
This is all taken from an online essay by Steve Scianni called
"the contributions of Chris Morgan in Hell under Fire"
under the heading
Conditional Immortality and Hell
found here:
http://hungertruth.com/Religion_Articles.html
Read the other articles found there under that heading as well for a wealth of important information :)
"the contributions of Chris Morgan in Hell under Fire"
under the heading
Conditional Immortality and Hell
found here:
http://hungertruth.com/Religion_Articles.html
Read the other articles found there under that heading as well for a wealth of important information :)
Melchizedek
This is all taken from the following page..I copied most of it to paste..there may have been a few more points in there I left out here if you'd like to check it out:)..There are also some other links on the page so visit it.This is for trinitarians who can't do their own research ;)..
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=335
Hebrews 7:3: without father or mother, without lineage, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest in perpetuity. (Montgomery)
Some, in reading the above scripture, see something in it that is not there, that Jesus has neither beginning of days, nor end of life. They do not seem to notice that when saying that *he* has neither beginning of days, Paul is speaking, not of Jesus, but of Melchizedek (also spelled Melchizedec), and not literally, but figuratively, to show the difference between the priesthood of Jesus and the Aaronic priesthood. If one reads this literally then we must believe that Mechizedek was always a priest from eterity past and that he is still now a priest. Jesus, of course, did begin his priesthood, but not with a lineage or beginning of days here on earth, but in heaven. There is no earthly lineage, no earthly beginning, from which his priesthood is attached. There is nothing here that says that Jesus existed for eternity past; such has to be read into the text.
Paul says that Melchizedek resembles the Son of God. Yes, Jesus is Son of God [He is not the God of whom is Son], and yes, Jesus does live forever, having been given such power by God, although this is not what is being spoken of in the verse, for it is concerning the priesthood that Paul is speaking, not existence. Paul is not saying that Jesus exists “from eternity”; this has to be imagined, assumed, and read into what he said. The only reason I can see for reading this into the text is to promote the idea that Jesus is Yahweh.
Very few believe that Melchizedek is God Almighty himself, having lived for eternity past, having no beginning, no ending, etc. Very few believe that Melchizedek literally continues to be a priest even to this day and forever. And, of course, we know that Jesus had a father. But Jesus had no earthly father from which he obtained a priesthood. To take the view that Paul is speaking literally would make Melchizedek Yahweh, and not our Lord Jesus, who is called the “only-begotten” (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9), “the Son of God” (Mark 1:1; Luke 1:32,35; John 1:34; 3:18; 5:25; 6:27; 9:35; 10:36; 11:4; 20:31; Acts 9:20, etc.), “the beginning of the creation of God.” (Revelation 3:14)
It would scarcely be necessary to show that Christ was not without a Father. Call to mind his words: “Father forgive them;” (Luke 23:34) Jesus was “born of a woman.” Wakefield’s version renders this (Hebrews 7:3) “Of whose father, mother, pedigree, birth, and death, we have no account.” There was a strict record kept of parentage, birth, death, &c., of every Levite, so that any one claiming to be a priest or Levite could prove it by the records.
It is testified of Melchizedek that he had no end of years, yet we do not see him living today; and it is testified of Christ that he did die, but he was made alive. This same Paul could say of Christ: “Jesus Christ, by the grace of God, tasted death for every man.” We conclude, then, that as Christ, in the days of his flesh, had a Father existing on the spiritual plane, and a mother who existed on the earthly plane. Jesus did “die for our sins,” “even the death of the cross,” therefore we have to conclude that Paul is not speaking literally about either the lack of father, birth or death of either Melchizedek or Jesus in a literal sense, but rather he is illustrating the lack of genealogy of the order of the Christ’s priesthood as shown by the account of Melchizedek, and thus Jesus’ priesthood is after the order of Mechizedek, not being of Aaronic genealogy, not having any earthly beginning or end.
When is Jesus made priest after the order of Melchizedek? Has he always been such a priest? No, but while this priesthood has no earthly beginning — he could not even have been such a priest while on earth, while in the days of his flesh, nor did Jesus have an earthly father from whom he could claim a priesthood — he was made priest after his return to heaven. (Hebrews 8:1-4; 9:11; 10:11-12) Thus like Melchizedek, Jesus’ priesthood does have a beginning in the heavens, but it is not seen on earth, nor is it given as a result of any earthly inheritance of the law and its priesthood. Like Mechizedek, Jesus does not literally have “no beginning of days”, but his heavenly priesthood has no beginning of days on earth, nor can be it be accounted for by human descent.
Jesus, now possessing endless life that will never die again, and he will be a priest for all eternity. — Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:8,16,24,25; Revelation 1:18.
To interject a meaning into Hebrews 7:3 that Jesus is God Almighty because of the description given to Melchizedek is to derive such a meaning out of context, and detract from what Paul was actually saying.
Nor did Jesus glorify himself as priest, for we read: “Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest.” (Hebrews 5:5) It is Yahweh himself that speaks to the Messiah saying: “You are a priest forever according the order (manner, Hebrew Dibrah, Strong’s Hebrew #1700) of Melchizedek.” (Psalm 110:4) Thus Paul says that Jesus is “named by God a high priest after the order (fashion, Greek, Taxis, Strong’s Greek #5010) of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11,17,21) And it is Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, who speaks to the Messiah, saying: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” — Psalm 110:1
Thus there is nothing in Hebrews 7:3 that proves that Jesus is Yahweh.
Even as Jesus is made a perpetual priest, Melchizedek is made by Yahweh in the prophecy of Psalm 110:4 (Hebrews 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11,15.21) like the Son of God pertaining to the priesthood of the Son of God. So that Jesus becomes a priest after the likeness of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 7:15,21) It does not prove anything, however, about the definition that trinitarians would like to give to eternity (as having no beginning), for Jesus has not always been a priest.
The fact that Melchizedek is made like the Son of God does not do away with the fact that it is of Melchizedek that Paul says that he is without beginning of days and or end of life.
There is no genealogical record of Melchizedek, his priesthood had no genealogical record of its beginning of days and no record of its ending of life. Paul is, of course, speaking symbolically, and not literally. Nevertheless, this is how his priesthood is a type of the priesthood of Jesus. We know that Melchizedek’s priesthood actually did have a beginning, and we know that Melchizedek himself did have a beginning, even though we do not know who his father and mother were, nor when he was born, when his priesthood began, etc. Nevertheless, his priesthood was not one that had a heritage from a lineage of priests, and in this Melchizedek is like Jesus. This is Paul’s argument in Hebrews chapters 3 through 10. “After the likeness of Melchizedek there arises another priest” (Hebrews 7:15), a priesthood superior to that of the Aaronic priesthood; Jesus did not receive a lineage as a priest from Aaron. Thus Melchizedek — is made, rendered similar, by the expression of Yahweh (Psalm 110:4), to the priesthood of Jesus. We also know that Jesus was not such a priest while on earth — thus he did not become a priest after the order of Melchizedek until after he was raised from the dead. He did become a perpetual priest after his ascension.
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=335
Hebrews 7:3: without father or mother, without lineage, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest in perpetuity. (Montgomery)
Some, in reading the above scripture, see something in it that is not there, that Jesus has neither beginning of days, nor end of life. They do not seem to notice that when saying that *he* has neither beginning of days, Paul is speaking, not of Jesus, but of Melchizedek (also spelled Melchizedec), and not literally, but figuratively, to show the difference between the priesthood of Jesus and the Aaronic priesthood. If one reads this literally then we must believe that Mechizedek was always a priest from eterity past and that he is still now a priest. Jesus, of course, did begin his priesthood, but not with a lineage or beginning of days here on earth, but in heaven. There is no earthly lineage, no earthly beginning, from which his priesthood is attached. There is nothing here that says that Jesus existed for eternity past; such has to be read into the text.
Paul says that Melchizedek resembles the Son of God. Yes, Jesus is Son of God [He is not the God of whom is Son], and yes, Jesus does live forever, having been given such power by God, although this is not what is being spoken of in the verse, for it is concerning the priesthood that Paul is speaking, not existence. Paul is not saying that Jesus exists “from eternity”; this has to be imagined, assumed, and read into what he said. The only reason I can see for reading this into the text is to promote the idea that Jesus is Yahweh.
Very few believe that Melchizedek is God Almighty himself, having lived for eternity past, having no beginning, no ending, etc. Very few believe that Melchizedek literally continues to be a priest even to this day and forever. And, of course, we know that Jesus had a father. But Jesus had no earthly father from which he obtained a priesthood. To take the view that Paul is speaking literally would make Melchizedek Yahweh, and not our Lord Jesus, who is called the “only-begotten” (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9), “the Son of God” (Mark 1:1; Luke 1:32,35; John 1:34; 3:18; 5:25; 6:27; 9:35; 10:36; 11:4; 20:31; Acts 9:20, etc.), “the beginning of the creation of God.” (Revelation 3:14)
It would scarcely be necessary to show that Christ was not without a Father. Call to mind his words: “Father forgive them;” (Luke 23:34) Jesus was “born of a woman.” Wakefield’s version renders this (Hebrews 7:3) “Of whose father, mother, pedigree, birth, and death, we have no account.” There was a strict record kept of parentage, birth, death, &c., of every Levite, so that any one claiming to be a priest or Levite could prove it by the records.
It is testified of Melchizedek that he had no end of years, yet we do not see him living today; and it is testified of Christ that he did die, but he was made alive. This same Paul could say of Christ: “Jesus Christ, by the grace of God, tasted death for every man.” We conclude, then, that as Christ, in the days of his flesh, had a Father existing on the spiritual plane, and a mother who existed on the earthly plane. Jesus did “die for our sins,” “even the death of the cross,” therefore we have to conclude that Paul is not speaking literally about either the lack of father, birth or death of either Melchizedek or Jesus in a literal sense, but rather he is illustrating the lack of genealogy of the order of the Christ’s priesthood as shown by the account of Melchizedek, and thus Jesus’ priesthood is after the order of Mechizedek, not being of Aaronic genealogy, not having any earthly beginning or end.
When is Jesus made priest after the order of Melchizedek? Has he always been such a priest? No, but while this priesthood has no earthly beginning — he could not even have been such a priest while on earth, while in the days of his flesh, nor did Jesus have an earthly father from whom he could claim a priesthood — he was made priest after his return to heaven. (Hebrews 8:1-4; 9:11; 10:11-12) Thus like Melchizedek, Jesus’ priesthood does have a beginning in the heavens, but it is not seen on earth, nor is it given as a result of any earthly inheritance of the law and its priesthood. Like Mechizedek, Jesus does not literally have “no beginning of days”, but his heavenly priesthood has no beginning of days on earth, nor can be it be accounted for by human descent.
Jesus, now possessing endless life that will never die again, and he will be a priest for all eternity. — Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:8,16,24,25; Revelation 1:18.
To interject a meaning into Hebrews 7:3 that Jesus is God Almighty because of the description given to Melchizedek is to derive such a meaning out of context, and detract from what Paul was actually saying.
Nor did Jesus glorify himself as priest, for we read: “Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest.” (Hebrews 5:5) It is Yahweh himself that speaks to the Messiah saying: “You are a priest forever according the order (manner, Hebrew Dibrah, Strong’s Hebrew #1700) of Melchizedek.” (Psalm 110:4) Thus Paul says that Jesus is “named by God a high priest after the order (fashion, Greek, Taxis, Strong’s Greek #5010) of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11,17,21) And it is Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, who speaks to the Messiah, saying: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” — Psalm 110:1
Thus there is nothing in Hebrews 7:3 that proves that Jesus is Yahweh.
Even as Jesus is made a perpetual priest, Melchizedek is made by Yahweh in the prophecy of Psalm 110:4 (Hebrews 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11,15.21) like the Son of God pertaining to the priesthood of the Son of God. So that Jesus becomes a priest after the likeness of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 7:15,21) It does not prove anything, however, about the definition that trinitarians would like to give to eternity (as having no beginning), for Jesus has not always been a priest.
The fact that Melchizedek is made like the Son of God does not do away with the fact that it is of Melchizedek that Paul says that he is without beginning of days and or end of life.
There is no genealogical record of Melchizedek, his priesthood had no genealogical record of its beginning of days and no record of its ending of life. Paul is, of course, speaking symbolically, and not literally. Nevertheless, this is how his priesthood is a type of the priesthood of Jesus. We know that Melchizedek’s priesthood actually did have a beginning, and we know that Melchizedek himself did have a beginning, even though we do not know who his father and mother were, nor when he was born, when his priesthood began, etc. Nevertheless, his priesthood was not one that had a heritage from a lineage of priests, and in this Melchizedek is like Jesus. This is Paul’s argument in Hebrews chapters 3 through 10. “After the likeness of Melchizedek there arises another priest” (Hebrews 7:15), a priesthood superior to that of the Aaronic priesthood; Jesus did not receive a lineage as a priest from Aaron. Thus Melchizedek — is made, rendered similar, by the expression of Yahweh (Psalm 110:4), to the priesthood of Jesus. We also know that Jesus was not such a priest while on earth — thus he did not become a priest after the order of Melchizedek until after he was raised from the dead. He did become a perpetual priest after his ascension.
Friday, June 5, 2009
What is the holy spirit?
John 3:34:For the one whom God sent forth speaks the sayings of God, for he does not give the spirit by measure.
John 20:22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”
What these texts tell me is that Jehovah,Jesus's father,is the SOURCE of the holy spirit..He GIVES it to Jesus without measure and Jesus ,as mediator and due to authority afforded him from his superior,dispenses measures of it to his followers so that they TOO can accomplish what he or his father would,EVEN FORGIVE SIN!Significantly,the spirit was given by Jesus BREATHING upon them,.Think about it.Did he breathe a PERSON??Are people baptized in a PERSON and water and fire??
This video is simple enough...from youtube user ancienthebreworg..I have tried to reason with trinitarians that our spirit is our breath,what animates us and so God's HOLY spirit is a kazillion times more dynamic and unexplainable than even ours and so He can use it in ways we cannot fathom or understand but that it ISN'T a PERSON..I hope you'll sincerely watch this..very brief though it may be,it should REALLY help you embrace something true if you're willing...I don't like to define the holy spirit as anything but the holy spirit..I'm not sure "active force" does it justice..it is certainly not to be put into words..if our spirits animate us,make us breathe like electricity for a TV imagine GOD'S how dynamic and unfathomable!The main point I'm trying to make is that it is extraordinary because it is God's BUT THAT IT ISN'T A PERSON lol..MAYBE part of the problem is the common "Christian" belief that spirits are separate entities that survive our deaths.This is false.When our spirits return to God that means our lives are in his hands..He can return our breath(ruah,pneuma=spirit=breath) and animation at the resurrection.Not that we're alive when we are dead...We have to be raised before we are alive again after we die.That is WHY there is a resurrection.If we were already in our destinations why the need for one?!I've heard it all..EXAMINE ALL THINGS.
John 20:22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”
What these texts tell me is that Jehovah,Jesus's father,is the SOURCE of the holy spirit..He GIVES it to Jesus without measure and Jesus ,as mediator and due to authority afforded him from his superior,dispenses measures of it to his followers so that they TOO can accomplish what he or his father would,EVEN FORGIVE SIN!Significantly,the spirit was given by Jesus BREATHING upon them,.Think about it.Did he breathe a PERSON??Are people baptized in a PERSON and water and fire??
This video is simple enough...from youtube user ancienthebreworg..I have tried to reason with trinitarians that our spirit is our breath,what animates us and so God's HOLY spirit is a kazillion times more dynamic and unexplainable than even ours and so He can use it in ways we cannot fathom or understand but that it ISN'T a PERSON..I hope you'll sincerely watch this..very brief though it may be,it should REALLY help you embrace something true if you're willing...I don't like to define the holy spirit as anything but the holy spirit..I'm not sure "active force" does it justice..it is certainly not to be put into words..if our spirits animate us,make us breathe like electricity for a TV imagine GOD'S how dynamic and unfathomable!The main point I'm trying to make is that it is extraordinary because it is God's BUT THAT IT ISN'T A PERSON lol..MAYBE part of the problem is the common "Christian" belief that spirits are separate entities that survive our deaths.This is false.When our spirits return to God that means our lives are in his hands..He can return our breath(ruah,pneuma=spirit=breath) and animation at the resurrection.Not that we're alive when we are dead...We have to be raised before we are alive again after we die.That is WHY there is a resurrection.If we were already in our destinations why the need for one?!I've heard it all..EXAMINE ALL THINGS.
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