I found something in my documents that I want to share.I don't know who posted it because I can't find the webpage anymore.I only had this portion pasted too and not the whole dialogue!So I am really sorry for that.But because I think there are some valuable arguments from this,as well as sharper more pulled together argumentation than my peabrain is generally able to produce or my flawed writing style to articulate,thought I would post.I do remember this much:this was written in response to Dave on his scripturaltruths website I think on one of his blogs about Colossians 1:16.(that I can no longer find so if anyone has the link to this particular blog,I would like it)Dave holds to the position that Jesus is a pre-existent spirit being who is the LITERAL firstborn of creation,God's first creation.This is I would presume a response from someone who knows better.Here 'tis:
In my original post I pointed out that the “all things” of Colossians 1 could not mean the “all things” of creation. You said that, according to the usage of “all things” elsewhere, it has to be all created things. This does not hold up. Let me explain.
If I take Rom. 11:36, 1 Cor. 8:6 and Heb. 2:10 as the scriptures you state, I will end up with a trinitarian stance. These scriptures refer to all created things coming from God, Jesus included. If all these very things came by and through Jesus, he is immediately excluded from that creation, making him the Creator or co-creator. Reading the Colossians text in such absolute terms creates an exegetical problem, even for you. In this case you, as the Watchtower did, resort to reinterpreting the section, claiming that Paul used some kind of tautological figure of speech. Hence the parenthetic insertion of [other] in the NWT.
If one allows Scripture to interpret itself, one has to keep the possibilities open for other, albeit typically Pauline, usages of “all things” and “creation.”
2 Cor. 5:17, 18 (NWT): “Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into EXISTENCE. But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation.”
Romans 8:19-25 (summarized): “The creation” was subjected to futility but eagerly expecting the freedom of the children of God. Not only “all creation,” but also ourselves are groaning while we wait for adoption as sons.
Ephesians 1:9, 10, 20-23, 2:10, 15 (NWT): “It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather ALL THINGS together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth…[He] raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. He also subjected ALL THINGS under his feet, and made him head over ALL THINGS TO THE CONGREGATION, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all. For we are a product of his work and were CREATED in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them. By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might CREATE the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace.”
Ephesians 4:23, 24 (NWT): “But that you should be MADE NEW in the force actuating your mind, and should put on the new personality which was CREATED according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.”
All these instances show that we, the human creation, are offered recreation through Christ. NONE of these instances refer to the “all things” of creation. Following the reasoning of Paul in Ephesians 1:19-23, a clear parallel can be drawn with his sequential reasoning in Colossians 1.
Something else to consider is Paul’s presentation of Jesus being the first-born Son of God. Granted, the Synoptics present Jesus to be God’s Son (Mt 1:21, 3:17, Mr. 15:39, Lu. 1:35, 9:35). The former lawyer, Paul, however focuses more on Jesus’ preeminence and his legal right as God’s Son. He presents Jesus’ preeminence as first-born, not by virtue of some unstated and unsubstantiated claim of being the one God started his creation with, but by virtue of the legal proof of his preeminence, namely, his resurrection. See for instance Ac. 26:23, Rom. 1:4, Col. 1:18.
Now, returning to Colossians 1, verse 20 says (NWT without parenthesis):
“and through him to reconcile again to himself all things by making peace through the blood on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.” (cf. the reference to peace in Eph 2:15)
Again, these “all things” have to be reconcilable things, things that can be gathered together in Christ (Eph 1:10). This immediately excludes unintelligent or lower life forms. This can only involve the candidates for and members of the New Creation.
To summarize: However you look at it, it puts you in a “catch-22.” As a Jehovah Witness you have to believe that Jesus is the first in sequence of all literal creation. You reason? Romans 11:36, 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Hebrews 2:10. But these scriptures refer to creation in its totality, including Jesus, so, you’re not proving your point. The WT Society realized this, hence the parenthetic insertion of [other] in Colossians 1. The text doesn’t say that. Secondly, if we look at Romans 8 creation in this context necessitates human creation only. Colossians 1:20 confirms that. Hence my and others’ contention that the “all things” of Colossians 1 speaks of matters pertaining to the New Creation, and not universal creation, hence no proof of preexistence.
You said that new creation has already been reconciled. Yes, what has been reconciled is in that state, but the work of creating the New Creation is not over, hence the still continuous process of reconciling “all things” with Christ (2 Cor. 5:20, 21). Secondly, our state of being reconciled is not final. It is not a matter of “once saved always saved.” Jesus will be the ultimate judge for our living forever in the age to come. As an aside, as a Jehovah Witness you should be the last one pointing to the completion of reconciliation with God. Your theology states that the “other sheep” will only reach full reconciliation during the millennial reign of Christ. Your objection renounces this very position. (I’m saying it with respect).
As regards our interchange on John 17:5, you state,
“The only way he could have the glory of an idea would be to return to the state of being the thing he had the glory of, which is an idea.”
Firstly, as I said, RETURN is not at issue here. Jesus prayed to receive the glory which God had reserved for him. I’m not sure why you strain the thought with your reference to “idea.” As I showed in Job, something being with God, especially abstract things such as wisdom, is never seen as being literally alongside God. Likewise, God intended to give Jesus glory as his inheritance. This was reserved for Jesus, hence Jesus’ requesting the glory (abstract) he had (reserved for him) before the world was.
In John 17:22 Jesus speaks of the glory God gave him which he also gave his disciples. Now, this glory that was given had obviously not been attained by either Jesus or his disciples. Hence, again, the understanding of glory assigned to or reserved for Jesus and his faithful followers – not only for those in the First Century, but also for those in the centuries to follow.
This is not a new thought. It is a thought expressed somewhat differently in John’s writings, but John’s approach is not primarily historical, but more theological. It is more concerned with the eschatological realities of Jesus’ redemption work, hence its proleptic approach to matters. The idea of God’s foreknowing the appearance of someone (Isa 1:5) is not foreign to Hebrew thought. The apostle Peter speaks of prognostically determining the appearance of Christ and his Church (1 Pet 1:2, 20, 21). Once again not personally existent in their pre-human past, but intentionally in God’s foreknowledge (cf. Mt. 25:34b).
This scripture – John 17:5 – is another text putting JWs in a doctrinal “double bind.” They have to believe in a version of preexistence Christology, and John 17:5 is often sited as proof. But, if that text is to be taken literally as the Watchtower asserts, then Jesus has to physically return to glory he previously possessed. That contradicts, not only Scripture which says that he received greater glory (Php. 2:9), it also contradicts Watchtower theology.
As regards the striking silence of his alleged pre-existence in the Synoptics, I think I do have a point there. The Synoptics, written as historical accounts, presents the Messiah as the one prophesied to come, starting his existence with his virgin birth (Lu. 1:35) and not before that. John’s writings – written with the Messiah’s accomplished purpose in mind, presented, not primarily historically but eschatologically and proleptically – necessitate the reader to understand preexistence notions within the frame of John’s purpose in writing and the metaphor used by the Jews.
I agree that Jesus Christ is what God’s Word, purpose and wisdom produced. Jesus is wisdom in human form. But this metaphor doesn’t change the reality of his coming into existence at his human birth as foreordained by God.
The end.From me:
Welp,I think some good points were made here that I hadn't even thought of.I STILL(because of knowing how the Hebrews spoke and thought of God's word and wisdom) think Colossians 1 has a poetic allusion to the original creation in Christ's great cosmic foreordained significance and in his fulfillment of all things(and because of what he represents that's been with God from the beginning in which all things were created,namely,his wisdom and word) ,which this guy doesn't seem to address at all.That being said,there were so many good points made here and correlating texts provided(especially in relation to Paul's use of "all things" and his mindset on a new creation typically)that I wanted to post.God bless.
Sunday, February 27, 2011
Thursday, February 24, 2011
Colossians 1:16(a response to a blog someone else wrote)
You have to read the blog here:
Ivan's blog on Colossians 1:16
before this one will make any sense.His blog was in response to a video I sent him where Sean Finnegan and Sean's friend discuss the text.I highly recommend watching that too here:
Sean's video
Here's my response to Ivan,too lengthy to post as a comment on his blog.Hopefully this will be of some help to those having any difficulty with this subject.
Hi Ivan.Glad you watched the video!Keep in mind the reconciliation and renewing process for humanity is ongoing till what happens at 1 Cor 15:27,28 takes place.Also,what I'm working with as *milk of the word* first before anything else are the following facts(these must be heeded when examining Colossians):
1.God created alone(Is. 44:24..who was with him?)
2.Jesus gave God credit for creating with no hint of agency.(Matthew 19:4,Mark 13:19)This would be odd if he created FOR God with his own hands.
3.God rested instead of Jesus.(Heb. 4:3,4)This would be odd if Jesus did all the work on behalf of God.
4.preposition dia can mean *in* or *for the sake of*,not just *through* or "by"
5.I think the bible is more than clear God created alone in his word and wisdom,not spirit creatures at all in unambiguous passages such as Proverbs 3:19 & Psalm 33:6.Christ fulfilled those functions of God when he became flesh.
Unlike some,I am not dogmatic that Col 1:16 can refer ONLY to a new creation.I find validity in James Dunn's points about God creating in his wisdom that *became* Christ(1 Cor. 1:30,1 Cor. 2:6,7) and his ruminations on the poetic writing and literary idiom the Hebrews sometimes employed to validate the cosmic significance of Jesus as the poetic fulfillment of all things.As a remarkable representation of that wisdom in which God created..A few quotes from him worthy of consideration(he did THOROUGH research on Hebrew mindsets and Wisdom literature):
"What at first reads as a straightforward assertion of Christ's pre-existent activity in creation becomes on closer analysis an assertion which is rather more profound--not of Christ as such present with God in the beginning,nor of Christ as identified with a pre-existent hypostasis or divine being(Wisdom) beside God,but of Christ as embodying and expressing (and defining) that power of God which is the manifestation of God in and to his creation."-James Dunn "Christology in the Making" p.194
Dunn also says:
"Paul picked up the Wisdom terminology and found it an important tool for asserting the finality of Christ's role in God's purpose for man and creation.But in using Wisdom terminology he inevitably incorporated language and ideas which were appropriate to Wisdom,the personified function of God.It is at least questionable whether in so doing he intended to assert the preexistence of Christ,or to affirm that Jesus was a divine being personally active in creation.This was simply the language which contemporary speculation and apologetic dictated that he must use if he was to assert the cosmic significance of Christ."pp.194-195
He goes on to point out that Paul had the same Hebrew mindset and was as firm in his monotheism as the OT authors who would have reacted negatively to a too literal interpretation of their Wisdom material.Some today use that Wisdom material(Prov 8:22-31 especially) to correlate with Colossians 1:16.Many Arians maintain that together they prove not only the pre-existence of Christ but also that he is creator.I agree with Dunn that this is ultimately unfounded,while also noticing a clear new creation context in Colossians 1 that he doesn't personally mention.
There is a STRONG kingdom context in Colossians,not just in verse 13.The context:kingdom of beloved son(verses 12-13),redemption and forgiveness(verse 14) the church(verse 18) & reconciliation(verse 20)(this is ongoing as I pointed out previously).."All things” are defined by kingdom terms as opposed to any Genesis narrative.Paul also wrote Ephesians in which you'll find many correlating verses.Verses which involve a new creation.Even IF you weren't satisfied with any Colossians 1 immediate context you would have to deal with Paul's writings elsewhere.Immediate context isn't always all that's to be heeded,as larger ones and correlating scriptures on the same subject can be just as helpful when interpreting.
From Ray Faircloth,who has written some great studies available on http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.uk/:
"The parallel letter of Ephesians (Eph.1:9-23 and 2:10) speaks only of the New Creation and gives a precise doctrinal correlation with Colossians 1. This further demonstrates that Colossians 1 applies to the New Creation consisting of “the Congregation of the firstborn” (Heb. 12:23) and the newly created angelic thrones, lordships, governments and authorities. (a new administration in 1 Peter 3:22). Nothing here applies to the inception of the Genesis creation. (Please also note the parallel phrases: Col.1:12/Eph.1:11; Col.1:16, 17, 20/Eph. 1:10, 21, 22).
Verse 16: “Because in (KIT) him all things were created , in the heavens and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him.”
The creating of an authority is not the physical creating of people.
‘In him’: Meaning ‘in union (or connection) with’, ‘in association with’, or ‘by reason of’ Bauer’s lexicon. In context this verse does not mean ‘by’ or ‘by means of’ "
Basically,I think the main creation in view overall is a new creation with allusions to the old poetically.That is why I'm able to embrace both Dunn's view(& Hebrew allegory or metaphor) as well as the new creation context,immediate AND larger.I feel this way because I think God had the new in mind even as he made the old.They were intertwined in some cosmic way as he created.Decreeing the end from the beginning and seeing things that aren’t as though they are.(Rev 13:8,Is. 46:9)Scriptures oft have allusions to dual fulfillments and I personally think that may be the case here.
If Colossians 1 is about a new creation,then firstborn "of all creation"(verse 15)and firstborn "from the dead"(verse 18) correlate beautifully in the tradition of Hebrew parallelism.To quote Greg Deuble:
"If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism,where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form,it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" mean the same thing."~p.244 "They Never Told Me THIS in Church"
I think that makes sense given the kingdom terminology employed to define "all things.""All" is oft qualified in context.I'm not entirely satisfied that he was just defining a couple of the things created in Genesis given the clear kingdom & new creation context,as well as the new creation correlating Ephesians(and other NT)passages.
I also understand that preexistence in the Hebrew mind(which I think you addressed in a blog..things like the Torah and the kingdom preexisted..Matt. 25:34) absolutely had to do with the decrees and plans of God in his heart and mind as good as fulfilled even if they didn't or won't materialize till a particular appointed time.(1 Peter 1:20,Gal. 4:4)
"When the Jew said something was ‘predestined,’ he thought of it as already ‘existing’ in a higher sphere of life. The world’s history is thus predestined because it is already, in a sense, preexisting and consequently fixed. This typically Jewish conception of predestination may be distinguished from the Greek idea of preexistence by the predominance of the thought of ‘preexistence’ in the Divine purpose."~E.C. Dewick, Primitive Christian Eschatology, The Hulsean Prize Essay for 1908, Cambridge University Press, 1912, pp. 253, 254. (gathered from Anthony Buzzard article "The Nature of Preexistence in the New Testament")
Also from the article:
A knowledge of the background to the New Testament reveals that Jews believed that even Moses "preexisted" in the counsels of God, but not actually as a conscious person:
"For this is what the Lord of the world has decreed: He created the world on behalf of his people, but he did not make this purpose of creation known from the beginning of the world so that the nations might be found guilty . . . But He did design and devise me [Moses], who was prepared from the beginning of the world to be the mediator of the covenant" (Testament of Moses, 1:13, 14).
I think it's fantastic that you're critically assessing all this.I had crises of conscience galore over my Arian beliefs,even wondering and having to pray about *exactly* who Jesus is now.For months on end.My view now was not an overnight occurrence but a real process.The more I studied the bible and Hebrew thinking,the more clear it all became.Oh,and yes,we WERE seated in Christ before time began so we preexisted according to the Hebrew definition of the word.(Rom 4:17,2 Tim. 1:9,Eph. 1:1-7)Saying we had glory in Christ with God since before the world was even made is not any different than saying that Christ had glory with God since before the world was even made.(Jn. 17:5)Only his glory is greater as savior of the world and heir of all things.
When wondering about these things,keep close in mind the milk first.Then the rest comes together.Some of that again would be:
1.God created alone(Is. 44:24..who was with him?)
2.Jesus gave God credit for creating with no hint of agency.(Matthew 19:4,Mark 13:19)This would be odd if he created FOR God with his own hands.
3.God rested instead of Jesus.(Heb. 4:3,4)This would be odd if Jesus did all the work on behalf of God.
4.preposition dia can mean *in* or *for the sake of*,not just *through* or *by*
5.I think the bible is more than clear God created alone in his word and wisdom,not spirit creatures at all in unambiguous passages such as Proverbs 3:19 & Psalm 33:6.Christ fulfilled those functions of God when he became flesh.
Yes,I learned quite well as a former Jehovah's Witness how to reiterate my points.
Oh,and I just thought of a 6th point.
2 Peter 3:16 says that Paul's letters contain some things that are hard to understand.If we let Paul interpret himself,he is speaking of a new creation.(Some Ephesians texts correlate with the Colossians ones language-wise and thoughts-wise as noted above)And we must let scripture interpret itself.Listening to Jesus is ALWAYS key.Who did he say made man and woman?
Matt. 19:4:Have you not read that *he* who created them from the beginning made them male and female
Ivan's blog on Colossians 1:16
before this one will make any sense.His blog was in response to a video I sent him where Sean Finnegan and Sean's friend discuss the text.I highly recommend watching that too here:
Sean's video
Here's my response to Ivan,too lengthy to post as a comment on his blog.Hopefully this will be of some help to those having any difficulty with this subject.
Hi Ivan.Glad you watched the video!Keep in mind the reconciliation and renewing process for humanity is ongoing till what happens at 1 Cor 15:27,28 takes place.Also,what I'm working with as *milk of the word* first before anything else are the following facts(these must be heeded when examining Colossians):
1.God created alone(Is. 44:24..who was with him?)
2.Jesus gave God credit for creating with no hint of agency.(Matthew 19:4,Mark 13:19)This would be odd if he created FOR God with his own hands.
3.God rested instead of Jesus.(Heb. 4:3,4)This would be odd if Jesus did all the work on behalf of God.
4.preposition dia can mean *in* or *for the sake of*,not just *through* or "by"
5.I think the bible is more than clear God created alone in his word and wisdom,not spirit creatures at all in unambiguous passages such as Proverbs 3:19 & Psalm 33:6.Christ fulfilled those functions of God when he became flesh.
Unlike some,I am not dogmatic that Col 1:16 can refer ONLY to a new creation.I find validity in James Dunn's points about God creating in his wisdom that *became* Christ(1 Cor. 1:30,1 Cor. 2:6,7) and his ruminations on the poetic writing and literary idiom the Hebrews sometimes employed to validate the cosmic significance of Jesus as the poetic fulfillment of all things.As a remarkable representation of that wisdom in which God created..A few quotes from him worthy of consideration(he did THOROUGH research on Hebrew mindsets and Wisdom literature):
"What at first reads as a straightforward assertion of Christ's pre-existent activity in creation becomes on closer analysis an assertion which is rather more profound--not of Christ as such present with God in the beginning,nor of Christ as identified with a pre-existent hypostasis or divine being(Wisdom) beside God,but of Christ as embodying and expressing (and defining) that power of God which is the manifestation of God in and to his creation."-James Dunn "Christology in the Making" p.194
Dunn also says:
"Paul picked up the Wisdom terminology and found it an important tool for asserting the finality of Christ's role in God's purpose for man and creation.But in using Wisdom terminology he inevitably incorporated language and ideas which were appropriate to Wisdom,the personified function of God.It is at least questionable whether in so doing he intended to assert the preexistence of Christ,or to affirm that Jesus was a divine being personally active in creation.This was simply the language which contemporary speculation and apologetic dictated that he must use if he was to assert the cosmic significance of Christ."pp.194-195
He goes on to point out that Paul had the same Hebrew mindset and was as firm in his monotheism as the OT authors who would have reacted negatively to a too literal interpretation of their Wisdom material.Some today use that Wisdom material(Prov 8:22-31 especially) to correlate with Colossians 1:16.Many Arians maintain that together they prove not only the pre-existence of Christ but also that he is creator.I agree with Dunn that this is ultimately unfounded,while also noticing a clear new creation context in Colossians 1 that he doesn't personally mention.
There is a STRONG kingdom context in Colossians,not just in verse 13.The context:kingdom of beloved son(verses 12-13),redemption and forgiveness(verse 14) the church(verse 18) & reconciliation(verse 20)(this is ongoing as I pointed out previously).."All things” are defined by kingdom terms as opposed to any Genesis narrative.Paul also wrote Ephesians in which you'll find many correlating verses.Verses which involve a new creation.Even IF you weren't satisfied with any Colossians 1 immediate context you would have to deal with Paul's writings elsewhere.Immediate context isn't always all that's to be heeded,as larger ones and correlating scriptures on the same subject can be just as helpful when interpreting.
From Ray Faircloth,who has written some great studies available on http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.uk/:
"The parallel letter of Ephesians (Eph.1:9-23 and 2:10) speaks only of the New Creation and gives a precise doctrinal correlation with Colossians 1. This further demonstrates that Colossians 1 applies to the New Creation consisting of “the Congregation of the firstborn” (Heb. 12:23) and the newly created angelic thrones, lordships, governments and authorities. (a new administration in 1 Peter 3:22). Nothing here applies to the inception of the Genesis creation. (Please also note the parallel phrases: Col.1:12/Eph.1:11; Col.1:16, 17, 20/Eph. 1:10, 21, 22).
Verse 16: “Because in (KIT) him all things were created , in the heavens and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him.”
The creating of an authority is not the physical creating of people.
‘In him’: Meaning ‘in union (or connection) with’, ‘in association with’, or ‘by reason of’ Bauer’s lexicon. In context this verse does not mean ‘by’ or ‘by means of’ "
Basically,I think the main creation in view overall is a new creation with allusions to the old poetically.That is why I'm able to embrace both Dunn's view(& Hebrew allegory or metaphor) as well as the new creation context,immediate AND larger.I feel this way because I think God had the new in mind even as he made the old.They were intertwined in some cosmic way as he created.Decreeing the end from the beginning and seeing things that aren’t as though they are.(Rev 13:8,Is. 46:9)Scriptures oft have allusions to dual fulfillments and I personally think that may be the case here.
If Colossians 1 is about a new creation,then firstborn "of all creation"(verse 15)and firstborn "from the dead"(verse 18) correlate beautifully in the tradition of Hebrew parallelism.To quote Greg Deuble:
"If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism,where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form,it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" mean the same thing."~p.244 "They Never Told Me THIS in Church"
I think that makes sense given the kingdom terminology employed to define "all things.""All" is oft qualified in context.I'm not entirely satisfied that he was just defining a couple of the things created in Genesis given the clear kingdom & new creation context,as well as the new creation correlating Ephesians(and other NT)passages.
I also understand that preexistence in the Hebrew mind(which I think you addressed in a blog..things like the Torah and the kingdom preexisted..Matt. 25:34) absolutely had to do with the decrees and plans of God in his heart and mind as good as fulfilled even if they didn't or won't materialize till a particular appointed time.(1 Peter 1:20,Gal. 4:4)
"When the Jew said something was ‘predestined,’ he thought of it as already ‘existing’ in a higher sphere of life. The world’s history is thus predestined because it is already, in a sense, preexisting and consequently fixed. This typically Jewish conception of predestination may be distinguished from the Greek idea of preexistence by the predominance of the thought of ‘preexistence’ in the Divine purpose."~E.C. Dewick, Primitive Christian Eschatology, The Hulsean Prize Essay for 1908, Cambridge University Press, 1912, pp. 253, 254. (gathered from Anthony Buzzard article "The Nature of Preexistence in the New Testament")
Also from the article:
A knowledge of the background to the New Testament reveals that Jews believed that even Moses "preexisted" in the counsels of God, but not actually as a conscious person:
"For this is what the Lord of the world has decreed: He created the world on behalf of his people, but he did not make this purpose of creation known from the beginning of the world so that the nations might be found guilty . . . But He did design and devise me [Moses], who was prepared from the beginning of the world to be the mediator of the covenant" (Testament of Moses, 1:13, 14).
I think it's fantastic that you're critically assessing all this.I had crises of conscience galore over my Arian beliefs,even wondering and having to pray about *exactly* who Jesus is now.For months on end.My view now was not an overnight occurrence but a real process.The more I studied the bible and Hebrew thinking,the more clear it all became.Oh,and yes,we WERE seated in Christ before time began so we preexisted according to the Hebrew definition of the word.(Rom 4:17,2 Tim. 1:9,Eph. 1:1-7)Saying we had glory in Christ with God since before the world was even made is not any different than saying that Christ had glory with God since before the world was even made.(Jn. 17:5)Only his glory is greater as savior of the world and heir of all things.
When wondering about these things,keep close in mind the milk first.Then the rest comes together.Some of that again would be:
1.God created alone(Is. 44:24..who was with him?)
2.Jesus gave God credit for creating with no hint of agency.(Matthew 19:4,Mark 13:19)This would be odd if he created FOR God with his own hands.
3.God rested instead of Jesus.(Heb. 4:3,4)This would be odd if Jesus did all the work on behalf of God.
4.preposition dia can mean *in* or *for the sake of*,not just *through* or *by*
5.I think the bible is more than clear God created alone in his word and wisdom,not spirit creatures at all in unambiguous passages such as Proverbs 3:19 & Psalm 33:6.Christ fulfilled those functions of God when he became flesh.
Yes,I learned quite well as a former Jehovah's Witness how to reiterate my points.
Oh,and I just thought of a 6th point.
2 Peter 3:16 says that Paul's letters contain some things that are hard to understand.If we let Paul interpret himself,he is speaking of a new creation.(Some Ephesians texts correlate with the Colossians ones language-wise and thoughts-wise as noted above)And we must let scripture interpret itself.Listening to Jesus is ALWAYS key.Who did he say made man and woman?
Matt. 19:4:Have you not read that *he* who created them from the beginning made them male and female
Thursday, February 17, 2011
John 1:1 and the Word of God
This is absolutely a must listen talk by Anthony Buzzard on one of the most beautiful poetic texts in scripture,John 1:1:
Buzzard on John 1:1
Btw,click on John 1:1 under trinity texts to the right for several blogs on John 1:1.I also have a youtube playlist on it.Be sure to check ALL the videos out when you can.:)
Buzzard on John 1:1
Btw,click on John 1:1 under trinity texts to the right for several blogs on John 1:1.I also have a youtube playlist on it.Be sure to check ALL the videos out when you can.:)
Friday, February 11, 2011
Wisdom Christology & Proverbs 8:22-31(for JW's,Arians,and trinitarians oh my!)
Though I already have a blog about Proverbs 8:22-31,this video contains a little bit of additional information.It also reiterates in video form much of the other blog's revelations.This was partially inspired by the book "Christology in the Making" by James D.G. Dunn.I take much of this video,especially concerning the actual historical and biblical context of these passages, from his book.I go on here to explain how and why Yahushua is the wisdom of God.I appreciate your patience with a 20 minute video.:)Thanks everybody for listening and may God richly bless you.
Saturday, January 29, 2011
Arius and Athanasius
A reupload of a youtube video minus my former Arian leanings.This is FAR from a Nicene council schooling.If you want that I recommend the excellent book "When Jesus Became God" by Richard E. Rubenstein..All this is is a reiteration of a literal few arguments that Athanasius presented at the council,why they're easily invalidated and a little about the influence of Greek philosophy on the minds of the Early Church Fathers..Since Arius's books were all burned and no one knows the intricacy of his every argument in no way am I claiming to believe JUST as he did.I don't think there was good reason to use a "nature" or "essence" argument anywhere..and I think both sides did.The bible is pretty clear..Angels are spirits.God is a spirit..so all heavenly creatures have a SPIRITUAL nature that is not corporeal and so claiming that Christ has the same nature as his father means what exactly?That they're both life giving spirits?Then I concede.(though I believe Jesus is a life giving spirit in corporal form..Col. 2:9 and only because God made him one)The same being?Sorry,that's not in the bible.Let me post some explicit creeds that need not be tampered with:
John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 Corinthians 8:5:For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (so we have the ONE GOD identified AGAIN as the father..and we have the ONE LORD Yeshua who had to be MADE LORD BY the ONE GOD.(Acts 2:36)..Trust me when I say (and please be realistic here) God is not the SAME Lord he had to make Lord.Yeshua is not the SAME God who had to make him Lord.
Deuteronomy 6:4:Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (and men can use twists of tongue and sly speech and outright lies to say if they have 3 each individually the one true God and say they have just 1 true God all they want,but it doesn't make it real,except in a traditional illusion/lie)
Links:
http://www.fourthcentury.com/index.php/arius-chart
http://books.google.com/books?id=tclFM-nRh2IC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA9&ots=Cam23HeKCR&dq=eperor+constantine+quotes&output=html
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/athanasius/volume1/index.html
http://arian-catholic.org/arian/arius.html
http://www.scripturaltruths.com
http://www.theologicalperspectives.com
**disclaimer**:Technically,the full revelation of the trinity wasn't concocted at the Nicene council but later at another council since their definition of *exactly* what the holy spirit was at the Nicene one was ambiguous to be sure.
John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 Corinthians 8:5:For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (so we have the ONE GOD identified AGAIN as the father..and we have the ONE LORD Yeshua who had to be MADE LORD BY the ONE GOD.(Acts 2:36)..Trust me when I say (and please be realistic here) God is not the SAME Lord he had to make Lord.Yeshua is not the SAME God who had to make him Lord.
Deuteronomy 6:4:Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (and men can use twists of tongue and sly speech and outright lies to say if they have 3 each individually the one true God and say they have just 1 true God all they want,but it doesn't make it real,except in a traditional illusion/lie)
Links:
http://www.fourthcentury.com/index.php/arius-chart
http://books.google.com/books?id=tclFM-nRh2IC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA9&ots=Cam23HeKCR&dq=eperor+constantine+quotes&output=html
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/athanasius/volume1/index.html
http://arian-catholic.org/arian/arius.html
http://www.scripturaltruths.com
http://www.theologicalperspectives.com
**disclaimer**:Technically,the full revelation of the trinity wasn't concocted at the Nicene council but later at another council since their definition of *exactly* what the holy spirit was at the Nicene one was ambiguous to be sure.
Tuesday, January 25, 2011
Anthony Buzzard on Hebrews 1:10 part 2
Since I have been covering Hebrews 1:10 in 3 other blogs(including Anthony Buzzard's commentary on it) found here(scroll down for all 3 blogs):
http://yahislove.blogspot.com/search/label/Hebrews%201%3A10
I thought I would share a video Anthony Buzzard made discussing it.I think he did a good job.
Truth is that there are too many texts to count that explicitly reveal Yahushua's father as the only Genesis creator(even some rather clear statements from Messiah himself saying his father created with no hint he did too as Anthony stated in this video..(Matthew 19:4,Mark 13:19..& GOD rested Heb. 4:3,4)Of course logically,however, Yahuwah had Christ in mind at the center of it all,as the purpose for a kingdom,before He ever made a thing.Yes,he made all things in Yahushua as the one he knew would hold it all together and make it all possible as the foreordained and decreed savior and upbuilder of a new creation.(Rev. 13:8,1 Peter 1:20,Is. 65:17,66:2,Eph. 1:10, 11,Gal. 6:15)I can't help reminding everyone that there's an alternative view also well presented to Hebrews 1:10 just for good measure and to not be so dogmatic about what I personally consider to be an ambiguous text.If you'd like to understand what that view is,go to the link above for my other blogs or click on Hebrews 1:10 under trinity texts to the side of my blog.God bless everyone.
http://yahislove.blogspot.com/search/label/Hebrews%201%3A10
I thought I would share a video Anthony Buzzard made discussing it.I think he did a good job.
Truth is that there are too many texts to count that explicitly reveal Yahushua's father as the only Genesis creator(even some rather clear statements from Messiah himself saying his father created with no hint he did too as Anthony stated in this video..(Matthew 19:4,Mark 13:19..& GOD rested Heb. 4:3,4)Of course logically,however, Yahuwah had Christ in mind at the center of it all,as the purpose for a kingdom,before He ever made a thing.Yes,he made all things in Yahushua as the one he knew would hold it all together and make it all possible as the foreordained and decreed savior and upbuilder of a new creation.(Rev. 13:8,1 Peter 1:20,Is. 65:17,66:2,Eph. 1:10, 11,Gal. 6:15)I can't help reminding everyone that there's an alternative view also well presented to Hebrews 1:10 just for good measure and to not be so dogmatic about what I personally consider to be an ambiguous text.If you'd like to understand what that view is,go to the link above for my other blogs or click on Hebrews 1:10 under trinity texts to the side of my blog.God bless everyone.
Monday, January 24, 2011
Jehovah's Witnesses & Death to Sin(a Romans 6:7 issue)
**Blog disclaimer**..Before I begin,please understand I am not suggesting here anywhere that Jehovah's Witnesses don't rely on the death of Yahushua for their salvation and way to eternal life.This blog is more about their odd belief that their own physical deaths eradicate their sin records,which to me personally seems irreconcilable with an actual need for a Redeemer beyond themselves since it is only sin that brings death at all.JW's don't think their own deaths acquit them from Adamic sin,just their "sin record."And without one of those,who would need a redeemer?This is why their misuse of Romans 6:7 is such a huge deal.
From the NWT:
Romans 6:7:For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin
Let's see what the WT has to say about this text(here beginning with a reference to resurrected ones being judged):
"How will returning ones be “judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds”? These scrolls are not the record of their past deeds; when they died, they were acquitted of the sins they committed during their lifetime. (Romans 6:7, 23) However, resurrected humans will still be under Adamic sin."~ WT 7/1/1998
The WT also says,from the Insight book vol. 1 under "Declare Righteous" :"The apostle Paul states that the person who dies is “acquitted [form of di·kai·o′o] from his sin,” having paid the penalty of death.—Ro 6:7, 23."
So the WT says that *our own* deaths acquit us from sin then say that we aren't free from it after all,still being under Adamic sin even after being raised.Interesting.
First of all,this is probably not the best translation of this verse,considering the Greek word the WT translates as "acquit" more properly means "freed."
The most important thing we can do here is heed the larger context from the ESV before we go any further.Not only will doing so make it clear the JW's have a twisted interpretation handed to them about this verse but also reiterate to all of us how important it is to crucify our own flesh and live for God.The correct interpretation of Romans 6:7 is not found within the WT but in context:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
The bible,in it's immediate Romans context here, is speaking of crucifying our flesh for Christ and not living in sin any longer.Yes,a death to our flesh which frees us from the bondage of sin.When we follow Christ's model and crucify ourselves daily,living for God and His Son and their kingdom instead of our own desires and potentially corrupt will as descendants of the first Adam,we're no longer slaves to sin.It doesn't reign in our lives.We fight it and find victory in Yahushua,the Last Adam, who showed us how to live and act,the perfect blemishless model.The greatest servant of Yahuwah's who ever walked this earth.Verse 4 explicitly articulates the "death" verse 7 is talking about.A death to our own flesh and will as opposed to the actual physical perishing that the WT propagates egregiously out of context.Verse 6 ALSO makes it clear that the death in verse 7 is a "crucifying" of our own flesh,not an actual physical death.Verse 8 sums it up when it says "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."This means that we die to sin and live in the spirit!
Galatians 2:20 says:I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
And Romans 8:10 says:But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
These scriptures provide elaboration on the old self and flesh being that which figuratively dies in correlation with Romans 6:7 and it's surrounding context.So we must heed these texts and die to our flesh as we live in the spirit,again.Let's see more of what the WT has to say about Romans 6:7:
" The death state is used to illustrate the spiritually dead condition of the world in general, so Jesus could speak of ‘the dead burying the dead,’ and the apostle Paul could refer to the woman living for sensual gratification as “dead though she is living.” (Lu 9:60; 1Ti 5:6; Eph 2:1) And since physical death discharges one from any debts or obligations existing up to that time (Ro 6:7), a Christian’s being freed or liberated from sin (Ro 6:2, 11) and from the condemnation of the Mosaic Law (Ro 7:2-6) is also likened to death, such one having ‘died’ to his former situation and obligations. The one figuratively dying in such a way, of course, is still alive physically and is now free to follow Christ as a slave to righteousness.—Ro 6:18-20; Ga 5:1. Insight vol 1 under heading "Death"
So basically what we have here is the WT admitting that "death" in scripture often entails a figurative one(one example they gave was "the dead burying the dead") and not a physical one,determined according to context and reason of course.Yet within the very same paragraph and thought process,they say Romans 6:7 is actually speaking of a physical death instead of a figurative one even though any honest examination of the context would reveal the opposite!Amazing.
Of course no one's ABLE to physically breathe or move,much less commit sin when they're physically dead.But the WT is propagating an actual acquittal from any of it by OUR own physical deaths.
This particular ridiculous WT dogma(and I say dogma because, to put it in their own words,their "entire range of teachings" no matter how bizarre or unbiblical must be believed to supposedly be an acceptable Christian)would absolutely mean that our own deaths free us from sin instead of the death of Yahuwah's spotless and perfectly righteous Lamb.Something we do(namely,simply dying) would instead be what we would be crediting for removing our sin and sanctifying us.Blasphemous really.We should never look to anything we've done as if it could actually cleanse or save us.Only what Christ has done accomplishes that!We then as Christians should of course proceed to follow Yahushua's model and crucify our flesh and its desires,dying to sin.
1 Peter 4:1-2 says: Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
If you're a JW teaching this false notion to others ,that simply sleeping in a grave can eradicate your record of sin,it is time to repent of this lie.The bible says the unrighteous will be resurrected and each one will have to pay according to the deeds that they have done in this life if they did not exercise faith in the Messiah.The righteous who did exercise faith in Yahushua will inherit his glory and an everlasting kingdom.The rest will have to suffer God's wrath against their sin because God is perfectly holy and just.We're all criminals against God's wise and beneficial laws, so anyone who doesn't accept the acquittal offered only in our glorious redeemer in whom solely is found life must justly pay for their own sin accordingly because of not accepting HIS payment.
Yes,please beware everyone:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.(see also 2 Corinthians 11:15)
Romans 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.
Notice there is no hint in these texts about these deeds for which the unrighteous will suffer God's wrath being those which they do AFTER being resurrected.That has to be read INTO the text,and it is by the the WT,dangerously and unjustifiably.
Yahuwah demonstrated His wrath against sin on His Son.Agony and torture leading to death.Only in the second death,the lake of fire, there can be no resurrection.But like the first death,it certainly doesn't "acquit" us from sin or those who suffer it would have no reason to be held by it.Because lack of sin would mean life.Death may be *payment* and a *consequence* for sin,but it certainly isn't an acquittal or no one could be held by it because Yahuwah desires to give everlasting life to anyone who exercises faith in Him and his Messiah,anyone free from sin.Those who don't have that saving obedient faith in the Lord aren't acquitted from their sins just because they have slept in a grave.Again,the bible makes it crystal clear that there will be payment for the unrighteous in the resurrection according to their deeds.Which obviously means their physical deaths didn't save them from such even though those deaths are a natural *consequence*(as opposed to an acquittal) from Adamic sin.
A serious question about this WT teaching would be:
If you're freed from your sins just because you have died,then how is it that *even* the second death itself won't demand another resurrection since it would merit sinlessness for those who experience it?(that is if death erases a record of sin)In other words,if an individual's perishing acquits that one from any sin they've ever committed,then Yahuwah would have no right to not raise every sinner even from the second death and say "well you paid and now you are acquitted and may live forever with everyone else."Because naturally an acquittal from sin would equal eternal life since it is only sin that brings a consequence of death.Freedom from it means life.In the WT world,everyone,for simply perishing should be acquitted of sin and hence free to live forever.Nonsensical,of course.There would have been no real reason for Christ to have had to die since *our own* physical deaths can free us in the world of the WT.
This WT dogma would naturally give JW's and those who believe their teachings a false sense of security that it doesn't really matter what they do ultimately,that their own deaths will acquit them of any wrongdoing or sin.Though that may be comforting,it is false and deceiving,which is never ok.Though the JW's may not be able to see it without some critical thinking outside the governing body's dictates,this false doctrine they have would logically lead to universalism because all it would take is a perishing on any individual's part then they're clean in God's eyes.Look to Christ's death for salvation and redemption,not your own.Obey Christ and don't think physical death can eradicate all the evil deeds you have done.Only faith in Yahushua and in HIS death and resurrection as well as a subsequent crucifying of our own flesh IN Yahushua can.
Thanks be to God for the opportunity to live for something greater than a world that's passing away and vain or harmful pursuits.We have a purpose here.To crucify our flesh and live for God looking forward to a glory so extraordinary that to do it justice in trying to articulate it in human terms would inevitably fall short.Now is the time for ALL of us to make our lives ALL about loving God and fellow man,preparing ourselves and others for the eternal kingdom of Yahuwah and his Messiah!!Not removing ourselves from the world of course,but nevertheless feeling like foreigners in it as we maintain an eagle eye focus on the kingdom of God and His righteousness and bringing it alive to others in the spirit.We certainly don't need an organization or a class of supposedly especially gifted men to do this.Only God,His Son,and love.
In conclusion,Romans 6:7 is about dying to our own fleshly will and hence no longer having sin reign in our mortal bodies.Yes,dying to it.This is NOT what the WT teaches though it's what the context makes clear.A couple last texts here to further summarize Romans 6:7 for Jehovah's Witnesses:
Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
2 Corinthians 5:17:So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:
So what,in context,in Romans 6:7 and also according to many correlating texts,"dies" by getting "crucified" and "passing away?"
Answer:the old man,the flesh,our own will
And then what does that lead to?
Answer:Freedom from bondage to sin
Yes he who has (figuratively) "died" is free from sin!
From the NWT:
Romans 6:7:For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin
Let's see what the WT has to say about this text(here beginning with a reference to resurrected ones being judged):
"How will returning ones be “judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds”? These scrolls are not the record of their past deeds; when they died, they were acquitted of the sins they committed during their lifetime. (Romans 6:7, 23) However, resurrected humans will still be under Adamic sin."~ WT 7/1/1998
The WT also says,from the Insight book vol. 1 under "Declare Righteous" :"The apostle Paul states that the person who dies is “acquitted [form of di·kai·o′o] from his sin,” having paid the penalty of death.—Ro 6:7, 23."
So the WT says that *our own* deaths acquit us from sin then say that we aren't free from it after all,still being under Adamic sin even after being raised.Interesting.
First of all,this is probably not the best translation of this verse,considering the Greek word the WT translates as "acquit" more properly means "freed."
The most important thing we can do here is heed the larger context from the ESV before we go any further.Not only will doing so make it clear the JW's have a twisted interpretation handed to them about this verse but also reiterate to all of us how important it is to crucify our own flesh and live for God.The correct interpretation of Romans 6:7 is not found within the WT but in context:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
The bible,in it's immediate Romans context here, is speaking of crucifying our flesh for Christ and not living in sin any longer.Yes,a death to our flesh which frees us from the bondage of sin.When we follow Christ's model and crucify ourselves daily,living for God and His Son and their kingdom instead of our own desires and potentially corrupt will as descendants of the first Adam,we're no longer slaves to sin.It doesn't reign in our lives.We fight it and find victory in Yahushua,the Last Adam, who showed us how to live and act,the perfect blemishless model.The greatest servant of Yahuwah's who ever walked this earth.Verse 4 explicitly articulates the "death" verse 7 is talking about.A death to our own flesh and will as opposed to the actual physical perishing that the WT propagates egregiously out of context.Verse 6 ALSO makes it clear that the death in verse 7 is a "crucifying" of our own flesh,not an actual physical death.Verse 8 sums it up when it says "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."This means that we die to sin and live in the spirit!
Galatians 2:20 says:I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
And Romans 8:10 says:But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
These scriptures provide elaboration on the old self and flesh being that which figuratively dies in correlation with Romans 6:7 and it's surrounding context.So we must heed these texts and die to our flesh as we live in the spirit,again.Let's see more of what the WT has to say about Romans 6:7:
" The death state is used to illustrate the spiritually dead condition of the world in general, so Jesus could speak of ‘the dead burying the dead,’ and the apostle Paul could refer to the woman living for sensual gratification as “dead though she is living.” (Lu 9:60; 1Ti 5:6; Eph 2:1) And since physical death discharges one from any debts or obligations existing up to that time (Ro 6:7), a Christian’s being freed or liberated from sin (Ro 6:2, 11) and from the condemnation of the Mosaic Law (Ro 7:2-6) is also likened to death, such one having ‘died’ to his former situation and obligations. The one figuratively dying in such a way, of course, is still alive physically and is now free to follow Christ as a slave to righteousness.—Ro 6:18-20; Ga 5:1. Insight vol 1 under heading "Death"
So basically what we have here is the WT admitting that "death" in scripture often entails a figurative one(one example they gave was "the dead burying the dead") and not a physical one,determined according to context and reason of course.Yet within the very same paragraph and thought process,they say Romans 6:7 is actually speaking of a physical death instead of a figurative one even though any honest examination of the context would reveal the opposite!Amazing.
Of course no one's ABLE to physically breathe or move,much less commit sin when they're physically dead.But the WT is propagating an actual acquittal from any of it by OUR own physical deaths.
This particular ridiculous WT dogma(and I say dogma because, to put it in their own words,their "entire range of teachings" no matter how bizarre or unbiblical must be believed to supposedly be an acceptable Christian)would absolutely mean that our own deaths free us from sin instead of the death of Yahuwah's spotless and perfectly righteous Lamb.Something we do(namely,simply dying) would instead be what we would be crediting for removing our sin and sanctifying us.Blasphemous really.We should never look to anything we've done as if it could actually cleanse or save us.Only what Christ has done accomplishes that!We then as Christians should of course proceed to follow Yahushua's model and crucify our flesh and its desires,dying to sin.
1 Peter 4:1-2 says: Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
If you're a JW teaching this false notion to others ,that simply sleeping in a grave can eradicate your record of sin,it is time to repent of this lie.The bible says the unrighteous will be resurrected and each one will have to pay according to the deeds that they have done in this life if they did not exercise faith in the Messiah.The righteous who did exercise faith in Yahushua will inherit his glory and an everlasting kingdom.The rest will have to suffer God's wrath against their sin because God is perfectly holy and just.We're all criminals against God's wise and beneficial laws, so anyone who doesn't accept the acquittal offered only in our glorious redeemer in whom solely is found life must justly pay for their own sin accordingly because of not accepting HIS payment.
Yes,please beware everyone:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.(see also 2 Corinthians 11:15)
Romans 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.
Notice there is no hint in these texts about these deeds for which the unrighteous will suffer God's wrath being those which they do AFTER being resurrected.That has to be read INTO the text,and it is by the the WT,dangerously and unjustifiably.
Yahuwah demonstrated His wrath against sin on His Son.Agony and torture leading to death.Only in the second death,the lake of fire, there can be no resurrection.But like the first death,it certainly doesn't "acquit" us from sin or those who suffer it would have no reason to be held by it.Because lack of sin would mean life.Death may be *payment* and a *consequence* for sin,but it certainly isn't an acquittal or no one could be held by it because Yahuwah desires to give everlasting life to anyone who exercises faith in Him and his Messiah,anyone free from sin.Those who don't have that saving obedient faith in the Lord aren't acquitted from their sins just because they have slept in a grave.Again,the bible makes it crystal clear that there will be payment for the unrighteous in the resurrection according to their deeds.Which obviously means their physical deaths didn't save them from such even though those deaths are a natural *consequence*(as opposed to an acquittal) from Adamic sin.
A serious question about this WT teaching would be:
If you're freed from your sins just because you have died,then how is it that *even* the second death itself won't demand another resurrection since it would merit sinlessness for those who experience it?(that is if death erases a record of sin)In other words,if an individual's perishing acquits that one from any sin they've ever committed,then Yahuwah would have no right to not raise every sinner even from the second death and say "well you paid and now you are acquitted and may live forever with everyone else."Because naturally an acquittal from sin would equal eternal life since it is only sin that brings a consequence of death.Freedom from it means life.In the WT world,everyone,for simply perishing should be acquitted of sin and hence free to live forever.Nonsensical,of course.There would have been no real reason for Christ to have had to die since *our own* physical deaths can free us in the world of the WT.
This WT dogma would naturally give JW's and those who believe their teachings a false sense of security that it doesn't really matter what they do ultimately,that their own deaths will acquit them of any wrongdoing or sin.Though that may be comforting,it is false and deceiving,which is never ok.Though the JW's may not be able to see it without some critical thinking outside the governing body's dictates,this false doctrine they have would logically lead to universalism because all it would take is a perishing on any individual's part then they're clean in God's eyes.Look to Christ's death for salvation and redemption,not your own.Obey Christ and don't think physical death can eradicate all the evil deeds you have done.Only faith in Yahushua and in HIS death and resurrection as well as a subsequent crucifying of our own flesh IN Yahushua can.
Thanks be to God for the opportunity to live for something greater than a world that's passing away and vain or harmful pursuits.We have a purpose here.To crucify our flesh and live for God looking forward to a glory so extraordinary that to do it justice in trying to articulate it in human terms would inevitably fall short.Now is the time for ALL of us to make our lives ALL about loving God and fellow man,preparing ourselves and others for the eternal kingdom of Yahuwah and his Messiah!!Not removing ourselves from the world of course,but nevertheless feeling like foreigners in it as we maintain an eagle eye focus on the kingdom of God and His righteousness and bringing it alive to others in the spirit.We certainly don't need an organization or a class of supposedly especially gifted men to do this.Only God,His Son,and love.
In conclusion,Romans 6:7 is about dying to our own fleshly will and hence no longer having sin reign in our mortal bodies.Yes,dying to it.This is NOT what the WT teaches though it's what the context makes clear.A couple last texts here to further summarize Romans 6:7 for Jehovah's Witnesses:
Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
2 Corinthians 5:17:So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:
So what,in context,in Romans 6:7 and also according to many correlating texts,"dies" by getting "crucified" and "passing away?"
Answer:the old man,the flesh,our own will
And then what does that lead to?
Answer:Freedom from bondage to sin
Yes he who has (figuratively) "died" is free from sin!
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