Reasoning with trinitarians part 3

This part of the blog is not written by me but is taken from a website,for which I'll provide the link:

http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html

Some key points:(lots of texts to look up..git bizzee)

Either Jesus has to be the one true God, or else he is a false god. Carrying this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, Moses must be either the one and only true God or a false god, since he was made ELOHIM to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel must be either the one and only true a true God or a else be false gods, since they were ELOHIM. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 [See Acts 23:5]) The angels must be the only true God or else they are false gods, since they are ELOHIM. (Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim) The sons of God to whom the Logos came must be the only true God or they are false gods, since they are called EL, ELOHIM and THEOI. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 10:34,35) The *EL*of Laban's hand must either be the only true God, or else be a false god. (Genesis 31:29) The EL of the hand of Israel must the only true God, or else be a false god. (Deuteronomy The EL of your hand must be the only true God or else the EL of you hand must be a false god. (Proverbs 3:27) The EL of Ezekiel 32:21 -- the mighty rulers in the nations spoken of in context -- must all be the only true God or else false gods.

Jesus is not his God whom he was with, the only true God who sent him. -- John 17:1,3,5
Jesus denied that he was God by stating over and over that he was sent by the only true God, could do nothing of his own self, everything he had was given to him by God, etc. (Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,22,23,27-30,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26)

Hebrew words for "god", when applied to any other than Yahweh, can take on a more general meaning of might, strength, power.

We can say that there is much in the way of Hebraic cultural heritage that supports the idea that one can be scripturally be called or have the title of "God" in a sense other than that of Supreme Being, or the Supreme Power.

When considering the Hebrew word *EL*, that this word is used to mean other than God Almighty or a false god may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in denoted by *..*: "It is in the *power* of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no *might* in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our *power*." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the *great* mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the *power* of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Pray unto *a god* [mighty one] that cannot save." (Isaiah 45:20) "Who among the sons of the *mighty*." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*." (Psalm 29:1) "The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh]." (Psalm 50:1) "The *strong* among the mighty shall speak" (Ezekiel 32:21)

Now my thoughts:
If someone is one hundred percent God then they are not one hundred percent man unless you are willing to ignore simple truth in favor of wild philosophy and mathematical impossibility.Again,understanding the Hebrew times,God's agents WERE God(as designated reps whose words and actions were not their own but by means of the spirit and allowance of Jah) and God doesn't always mean false god OR true Almighty God and as seen from numerous texts can mean a mighty ,powerful being,and not always a false one.The false ones are not really either mighty,or powerful.So when Jah called David and Moses God he meant "mighty ones"..mighty by whose power?According to Isaiah 9:7 by whose zeal and power was Jesus made mighty?

Jesus profusely prayed for a reason(besides love),he feared,in his mortal flesh,that he might be abandoned,even though I'm sure he knew better.The flesh is weak.(and trinitarians think God could actually do this or even empty himself..twisting texts that say his SON did,NOT HIM)While trying to make sense of the fact that Jesus deserves praise,obeisance and glory ALONG with Jehovah,trinitarians have wrongfully assumed they HAVE to be the same God..because God is one right?Just a wee bit of reasoning should help one to realize that Jesus is glorifying the Almighty as His appointed chief agent and heavenly king.Remember the earthly kings were rendered service and obeisance,so one shouldn't marvel at Jesus having such,while STILL being just a SON,the MOST exalted son :)It is the same as honoring Jehovah ,as he is the one who appointed them and gave them power and might.(Jah will hand the kingdom over to Christ for a 1000 yrs so it is him,who possesses Jah's spirit without measure whom we are honoring and obeying to the glory of his father,who loves him more than we can fathom and who allows him and wills unto him all this amazing power)To put it blatantly simply,serving Jah's representatives and appointed kings is the same as serving him.Their words and dealings are NOT THEIR OWN when they are accomplishing his will.


Keep in mind also that Lord is applied to many as well ,and rightfully so,not because these people are Jehovah,but because lord is a title of the head of someone or the head of peoples(gen 18:20,matt 10:24,20:8,21:30,27:63,1 pet 3:6,mark 13:35,acts 25:26)Jah GIVES Jesus his designation,might and power just as he did Moses.Doesn't Jehovah deserve credit for what his servants do?So when Jehovah does something,then it says someone else did that same something,does it mean that the persons involved must be the same?Or maybe it means he uses agents and takes rightful credit?<--yep.Who could've done anything without his direction and spirit??(and designation)I challenge trinitarians to give me an instance where Jesus didn't have to be given something,again.Where was his God and father not credited?If it would be common sense for us to know the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron were from God's hand and spirit,why do we assume Jesus's weren't?Even when he said they were?!Even when the bible makes clear he has been and will be used for Jah to accomplish things through?If Jah's glory can surround an angel as his representative then why must Jesus be Jah just because he shares that glory too? **Luke 2:9-11: “And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city.’ ”(his reps gleam with his glory in more ways than one..the glory could be literal or it could be a miracle he performs through them,or a power he allows them to possess,ALL things to Jehovah's glory,the one who sends and the one who gives freely,especially to his most beloved!) **Isaiah 11:2:The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.(remember that dove descending?Jah's spirit without measure is always with his messiah!Notice,too that Jesus even has a healthy fear of the LORD..remember the constant supplication. **Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. 19 If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I myself will make him answer for it. ..So Jah's messages are in the mouths of his agents.Just like his miracles and salvation are in the ones he sends forth to accomplish those things. **Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face..So Ezekial credits himself with something Jehovah did,as his agent. **Jeremiah 1:9:Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth 10. See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant..So when we see that Jeremiah breaks down,overthrows,builds,plants etc..then couldn't it be said of either Jeremiah or Jehovah?And couldn't Jehovah say that he does all this alone since it is only by means of his spirit that Jeremiah could? **Jeremiah 2:2 :Go and announce to Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: I remember the unfailing loyalty of your youth, the love you had for me as a bride. I remember how you followed me into the desert, into a land that couldn't be farmed....again,they followed Jeremiah,and as Jah's rep,they were following Jah. **Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God. ..take note of Moses speaking AS God!..his words are not his own(in verse 6)!(who else's words were not his own?) **Job 42:11:and comforted him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him-->so did Jehovah cause the suffering of Job?Nope,but his allowing it made it attributable to him in that respect.So here we have Jah given credit for something Satan did because Jah didn't stop it.


**Gen. 40:8:Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me them, I pray you....Now the reason I pasted this text is this..Joseph,who said the words then proceeded to interpret the dreams!IF Jesus had said these words and then proceeded to do what Joseph did it would be cited all the time and used as proof of the trinity.Therefore when a servant(and yes Jesus served Jehovah and still does) of Jah's does something miraculous,what can we conclude?That they had no help?Then when they do accomplish something by means of God's spirit,I ask you,again,couldn't Jehovah say HE accomplished it ,alone even?


The book "Alleged Discrepancies in the Bible" by John W. Haley :
"It is consistent with Hebrew modes of thought that whatever occurs in the world, under the overruling providence of God, what he suffers to take place, should be attributed to his agency."

Imagine you have a God and father you know intimately well because he revealed his spirit fully to you and that you lived closer to him and ARE closer to him than any other child he has.Imagine your God needed you to accomplish something for him because for whatever reason he couldn't(his magnificence could not be beheld ,he could not possibly die etc) and he gave you the words to say and a thorough instruction guide to get things done,would you ignore all his wishes and commands?What if you loved him more than anyone in the world could ever fathom?What if he epitomized love himself AND promised you a fantastic reward upon completion of his assignment?What if he possessed some sort of majestic force he uses to help his will get accomplished and could pour it out anywhere or upon anyone he so desired?What if he used that force to be present with you and generously poured it upon you to help you make it through the assignment?And imagine upon completion of it,you get rewarded and he commands everyone to revere you with the same reverence they revere him as someone who ensured them their eternal lives in a perfect kingdom by what you accomplished.In no way by doing this though,was he negating his position as your boss and the one who gave you the power and will and even your very life to accomplish his will.And when you are freely and generously given all your power,will you ignore all that you have learned and all that you will learn from the one who gave it to you?Will you use the standards of the very one who you proclaim is your God and greater than you when you accomplish HIS WILL?Do you think he will abandon you in your future assignments ,you and your brothers that he allowed you to adopt as your own just because he loves you?He will always be there for you and you will always be his most beloved,faithful and true.Faithful and true and beloved to whom?Sent and used as agent and representative for whom?YOURSELF?When does all this suddenly MAKE YOU THE SAME GOD WHO SENT YOU AND GAVE YOU EVERYTHING?


The father GAVE Jesus EVERYTHING right?And what about the father being the only true God can't people grasp?(Mark 12:28-34)If Jesus was 1/3 of a godhead he wouldn't have distinguished himself from another third as lesser or had to be given anything from anyone.In no way shape or form can 1/3 of God be submissive to another 1/3 of God unless you are willing to open your window and toss logic clear to timbuktu in favor of biblically condemned philosophical leanings that were and apparently still are prevalent.Erroneous manmade "puffed up" "knowledge" outside of God's simple truth of his singularity and Jesus singularity,sonship,as messiah and king BY GOD'S appointment.God is now his own king?God is now his own God?God became a man?God died?God was tempted and possessed a will different than his own?God is his own father?God constantly gave 1/3 of himself credit for another 1/3's sayings and doings?1/3 of God inherited what another 1/3 of God had because 1/3 of God had emptied himself?You'll have to excuse me for my inability to grasp this wild philosophical greek-inspired conjecture,but didn't the bible say that he sent his SON?When did Son of God start meaning God?Who was the first trinitarian?And where does God or Jesus talk about their substances enough to start formulating creeds about it?Aren't all heavenly beings composed of a celestial nature?Who are trinitarians to define the nature and substance of the Almighty?Shouldn't we stick to what IS revealed?And if I am out of line saying 1/3 a lot because each person of the "godhead" is each 100% percent God then you'll just have to excuse me for saying you have 3 100% Gods.And if that angers you,you have to understand that is NOT my intention.I'm just being realistic and seeking to expose a doctrine I clearly oppose as a truth seeker and a holder to the singularity of the one and ONLY Almighty.(Deut 6:4,John 17:3,Ps. 83:18)It hurts me a little to see sincere people who have an awesome zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge,the very thing I am accused of.(Rom. 10:2)

from:
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas:

"When we take into account the inevitable "falling away" or "apostasy" foretold in the Christian scriptures,and at the same time appreciating the very real influence of invisible though hostile spiritual forces that surround us,as well as the overall weakness and fallibility intrinsic to the human condition,it becomes to a certain degree understandable that devout students of the bible have gone into different directions on such a crucial matter."

"Nearly every argument made to advance and uphold this established doctrine always relies on a notable excessive degree of theological inference,an unusual and innovative kind of thinking,and even,in certain cases,farfetched philosophical speculation based on preconceived views and already established theological concepts."

Imaginary conversation with a trinitarian

Kellie:You think 3 persons each individually called almighty God equals one God?
trinitarian:yes,3 persons,1 GOD
Kellie:How did you come to this conclusion?
trinitarian:those three persons are each called God so it has to mean they are all one God,because God is one
Kellie:So it doesn't matter to you that all kinds of people are called God,from Moses to angels to judges?
trinitarian:It is different because Jesus is worshipped and given God's name
Kellie:It doesn't matter to you that others are "proskeneo'd" to God's glory and given God's name as well?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus
Kellie:I agree that Jesus is more important than these others but does that mean he is God just because of his being exalted BY GOD above others?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..he shares God's throne and glory
Kellie:What of the others who do?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus because he is the EXACT representation of God's glory and ALL THE FULLNESS of God was in him in bodily form
Kellie:The bible says Jesus was given God's holy spirit WITHOUT measure,explaining his representing him so poignantly.Also,If Jesus is Almighty God and all of Jesus' fullness dwells in believers,does that mean they too have to be equally Almighty God?
trinitarian:Jesus is called the first and the last,the almighty,the alpha and Omega
Kellie:Actually he is only called the first and the last as a different application than that to Jehovah.It is succintly explained in context..first raised from the dead,last directly by Jah because he was GIVEN the key to death and hades,so that THROUGH him all others would be raised.It is QUITE common in scripture to apply identical phrases to different people because it could be said of BOTH for different reasons,in different applications and fulfillments
trinitarian:You mean to tell me you think there can be more than one first and last?
Kellie:yes,when you look at context absolutely..it is explained if you are willing to reason.BOTH times he is the immediate context is his death and resurrection.
trinitarian:What about Jehovah being called almighty as the one coming..we know Jesus is coming,not Jehovah so Jesus has to be Jehovah
Kellie:You don't think Jehovah will be with Jesus to exact vengeance?You don't think Jesus will use his father's standards and direction in judging etc?The bible says he'll be coming in the glory of his father and the angels!You don't think that the way of Jehovah IS the way of Jesus since Jesus does everything his father tells him to do and lives by his fathers standards?And Jesus isn't ever called almighty.
trintarian:you're dancing around the issue..They're each individually almighty God,but there's only one almighty God,existing in 3 persons.That simple.
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:the trinity is a bit of a mystery because great is the mystery of godliness
Kellie:It's only a mystery if it hasn't been revealed.What do you think of Deuteronomy 6:4?
trinitarian:I think echad denotes unity of persons
Kellie:Echad means a numerical one just like the English language "one" functions."Show me an instance where echad denotes unity with more than one person involved in that unity when those persons aren't all mentioned
trinitarian:I'll have to look into that
Kellie:great
triniatrian:Mind if I show you a list of titles applied to both that can only be applied to Jehovah?
Kellie:that'll be fine if you'll allow me as well to present to you a list of titles used of others and used of Jesus as well that would SEEM to be exclusive to either.
trinitarian:that's different because these people foreshadowed Jesus
Kellie:so you don't think it could also be that those words apply to both in different applications and not just because of foreshadowing?In other words..those words and phrases can be applied to both in separate fulfillments.Jesus is Yah's agent.And are you willing to say that all these people whom Jah created foreshadow Jah,whom you think Jesus is?
trinitarian:no ,they just foreshadow his human nature
Kellie:Where does the bible say Jesus was a hundred percent Jehovah on top of a hundred percent man?
trinitarian:that's just common sense because God can't stop being God even when he empties himself
Kellie:where does the bible say Jehovah emptied himself?Doesn't the bible say that Jesus humbled himself even though he was the Last Adam,heir to a throne, and that Jesus is Jehovah's son?
trinitarian:Son of God=God like son of man=man
Kellie:Isn't that a wild assumption since God created ALL things and man did not?
trinitarian:It's clear
Kellie:I think so too..I think son of God means son of God.Angels are sons of God.
Trinitarian:To which of the angels did he ever say that?!
Kellie:Jesus is the only begotten unique son of God because he was born of a virgin by God's spirit and most extolled heir.He conquered the world to save our lives.
trinitarian:that's another thing..only God can save us
Kellie: I agree..he designated someone to do so. But in the scales of justice who was powerful enough to make all of us lose our lives?
trinitarian:Adam?
Kellie:yes..wasn't he first created perfect earthly son of God?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:Isn't God perfectly just?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:so why then wouldn't another perfect creation of God be good enough to buy back what another had lost?
trinitarian:He said no God after him was formed.If you think Jesus is a "little god", you're a polytheist
Kellie:there are many gods,only one true Jehovah almighty God.No one else is Jehovah but Jehovah.Even when his agents are given his name,it is only a Hebrew right.Their words and actions are not their own when his spirit is directing them.Are you willing to say that People God HIMSELF called gods and lords are false ones?I'm not.
trinitarian:are you willing to give worship and sacred service to a creature?
Kellie:Are you willing to admit that created designated powerful beings are sometimes as chief agents and representatives of the Most High given "proskeneo" to Jehovah's glory?And rendered service BECAUSE they are upholding Jah's statutes in their powerful positions that he gave them?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..his name is above EVERY name.
Kellie:you think it is above Jehovah's?In light of 1 cor 15:27,28 are you willing to say that in instances where Jesus is above everyone else that it must mean he is Jehovah?Isn't it common sense to know that ,again,according to 1 Corinthians that it is obviously WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who MADE him above all things?Does Jehovah have to qualify that simple discernible truth every time?
trinitarian:In other words..you're willing to worship a creature and serve a creature and credit a creature for your salvation.
Kellie:I'm willing to accept Jesus as designated Lord,savior and theocratic king.Again,Jehovah allows his CHIEF agents obeisance.I have instances where it is appropriate ,but always to HIS glory,if you'd like to go through a few.I recognize that Jehovah saved and that Jehovah rules THROUGH Jesus.That we are to give those taking the lead among us "double honor" etc..Jesus is miles above them so why not honor him?As the one who most perfectly follows his father's footsteps,he has been rewarded with our honor and Jehovah's exaltation like no other!
trinitarian:sounds like creature worship to me.
Kellie:when angels and kings at times were "proskeneo'd" you think it was inappropriate?
trinitarian:Angels and kings aren't worshipped.Only Jehovah ,in 3 persons,is!They may be honored,but not worshipped
Kellie:The SAME word is used,and it can mean a number of things.If Jehovah told you that you were standing on sacred ground because a mighty angel showed up as his chief representative before you,would you bow before him,recognizing whose glory he was representative of,and whose words he was delivering,to the glory of the chief angel's God?Wasn't Moses called God?Weren't angels called gods?Why were Jah's kings "proskeneo'd"?
trinitarian:I'm not willing to worship a creature.
Kellie:Jesus isn't just some creature.He was exalted above the angels.Notice though that it doesn't say it was his rightful position but that he was rewarded ONLY BECAUSE of his perfect obedience and faithfulness?It says he was better ONLY to the extent that he inherited a name better,not that he has some inherent greater ontology or greek substance.When one is exalted it means they are raised to a higher position than they had before.
Trinitarian:right,he was exalted again back to where he was because he had emptied himself
Kellie:But if he was always equally almighty God then that human nature shouldn't have mattered.You can't be exalted by someone if you are 100 percent God.
trinitarian:you are ignoring the human nature
Kellie:My point is the God nature should trump the human and negate the fact that the human nature would have any limitations at all.
trinitarian:I'm not sure I get what you mean
Kellie:Jesus was exalted ,not from his human nature,but from his previous position as Jah's chief word and representative to his chief word and representative PLUS theocratic king of Jah's kingdom government,with a much touted admired name that is above every other except the One's who gave it to him,one that he EARNED through love,supplication,obedience and saving mankind.
trinitarian:Oh so you don't think Jesus is God?lol
Kellie:You could tell?

Reasoning with Trinitarians part 2

I know there are mysteries about God that as finite wee humans we cannot comprehend,but thankfully what he has revealed we can know.And he has revealed that he is not a trinity..And Jesus has revealed that he is inferior,even after his ascension.(John 14:28,eph 1:17)Common sense and scripture unite to declare to us the simple truth of Jehovah and his appointed king!


What does the spirit of the antichrist confess?That Jesus never came in the flesh and that he never died and was raised?

Don't trinitarians believe that Jesus was 100% God AS WELL as 100% flesh.Can God be flesh?(num 23:19,rom 1:23)And where does the bible say he was 100 percent God on top of that 100 percent flesh?(1 cor 15:21)I only see that he was flesh .(1 tim 2:5)Trinitarians also believe Jesus as "God the son" never died.Guess what?Jesus died,and not just a flesh capsule of his.Is Jesus REALLY 2 natures..because the trinitarian numbers add up to 200 percent.(trinitarians employ "voodoo" mathematics ;)The bible makes clear that Jesus,ALL of him,the ACTUAL PERSON of him died.For three whole days.If someone has proof otherwise,bring it on.And if your proof is that his spirit went to God then I urge you to look up the definition of that word used for spirit and realize that happens to everyone at death.(Luke 23:46).Is no one really dead?And what is up with the whole resurrection thing if not?(acts 24:15)And why are the dead described by Jesus as sleeping?(John 11:11)And the bible as having no thoughts etc.?(ecc 9:5,10)Spirit can mean life(pneuma ),and when we die our future life prospects,clearly,are given back to Jehovah.(ps 146:4)Who can restore "the breath of life" to us just as he did to Jesus upon OUR resurrection.(gen 2:7)I keep emphasizing these points because if someone is willing to be honest with scripture and self,one MUST admit Jesus died and therefore cannot be God.And that if anyone doesn't believe Jesus REALLY DIED for us(ALL OF HIM),he is hazardously confessing a "different Jesus".(2 cor 11:3,4..apostasy started way back even then!)Did anyone in the bible who was resurrected ever mention the torment they had burning alive or the bliss they had in heaven before they were brought back??Wonder why that is?Death means lack of breath,thinking ability,speech,you name it..Anything beyond that is not biblical.Dead can be brought BACK to life.(1 cor 15:40)It's basic truth.Are you maybe just reasoning through a "what you've always been taught" kind of lens?(mark 7:13)I hope upon further prayerful examination and meditation you will consider that Jesus was REALLY flesh when he came to the earth,which rules out the ability to be God.(Is 31:3,1 tim 6:16.John 4:24)And that he was REALLY dead for three days,not alive.Otherwise,again,you have been taught "another Jesus" than that which the bible declares(1 tim 1:3).No death,no atonement.Death of only one nature of 2,unbiblical.(mark 8:31,col 2:8)And not a real *death* according to the bible's own definition of the word!

I don't agree with all this person believes but I found this page interesting..check it out!(I've never seen anyone put Jesus on a witness stand in a blog before.)
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html

Interestingly enough,trinitarians oft say that only God would be good enough to have died to remove our sin from us,yet they say God didn't die,just his human nature.But by that very reasoning,wouldn't his human nature alone not have been good enough?

**Matt 27:62-64:'**He**(a person,not just a flesh capsule that once had a person in it) has risen from the dead

**Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

**Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades.(Jesus)

**John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”

**John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”

**Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)

**The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:16)

**Hebrews 5:7 "As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God".

I for one can't appreciate the philosophical spin trinitarians put on who Jehovah and Jesus are.(1 cor 8:6,John 17:3)

Another objection:Jesus is given God's name so he must be God.(John 17:11)First of all if someone is given something he isn't the one who gave it.Just like if someone is representing someone else(I don't care how perfectly) that person cannot be the one they represent.Being in the form of someone ALSO excludes the possibility that you are that someone.(trinity "proof" texts usually refute themselves.)

Jesus LITERALLY means "Jehovah is salvation" so everytime you are calling upon Jesus name you are calling on Jehovah's.(For those of you who think it is unuterrable and too holy to be recognized.)There's a new name given to all sons if God.(rev 14:1)Jehovah's name is said to be in his agents.(ex 23:20,21)As his agents of message deliverance and salvation(in Jesus case) they bear his name..His name is his will.And he uses his agents to "cause whatever he wills to become."His name means "he causes to become".So whoever he uses to cause his will to take place,bear his name.(ex 7:1)That simple.Whomever he uses become "as God' and whomever he speaks through,CAN be termed "Yahweh" as his word if Yahweh so wills.THE AGENT BEARS THE NAME OF THE PRINCIPLE.(especially if they are chief agent or specially favored,as would the Angel of Yah and Jesus have been..)This is typical in Hebrew times!And a Hebrew truth that trinitarians haven't recognized,at least not in the case of Jesus.His agents are even "proskuneo'd" to his glory,not just Jesus.Those who did recognized who it REALLY was they were honoring,as his representatives and appointed kings etc.As lords and gods.(yes,real lords and gods..there should be no implication here that these common titles mean Sovereign Lord Most High of the universe).Clearly,Jah is one.And he means one..not triune,which doesn't mean one.I would like to make perfectly clear that God makes perfectly clear his singularity,nor does he shy away from saying "I am God.Worship me"..something Jesus neva eva said.However he did say a lot of things that proved he was inferior,and not because he is Godman,but because he is inferior as God's Son and servant.(consistently)ONLY to Jah though,he's above everyone else.(1 cor 15:27,28)I think the most exalted appointed king of the Most High God deserves sacred service and obeisance.(even less important earthly kings had these things) Worship means all kinds of things .You don't know him if you think he IS the same being as the one HE worships,supplicating with his face to the ground!His will was even different and so he had to beg for it to conform.

Trinitarians think God has a God.Amazing.I think one of the problems trinitarians have is reconciling the fact that Jesus has SO much power but yet isn't God.But think of all the things the OT reps and the NT disciples accomplished due to his spirit being upon them.Then multiply that by whatever number because Jesus is the greatest of all his messengers for obvious reasons,but you STILL have a messenger and someone GIVEN their power,any which way you cut it.(john 3:34,6:57,7:16,17,28-30,8:16,26,col 1:3)

I have a page I want to recommend for understanding the whole agent/principle thing.Just read under "AGENCY"

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47287

Jehovah will continue to use Jesus as his chief agent in EVERYTHING.Saving,building and maintaining a kingdom,holding together a new creation,judging,resurrecting,you name it.(John 14:6,1 cor 8:6,rev 1:1,John 5:19,27,heb 1:2,acts 2:36,2 Cor. 5:17,18,Dan. 7:13,14).

Not a single soul can find an instance where Jesus isn't given everything he has,from words to power etc.(have you read Matt,Mark,Luke and John lately?)And that to me is powerful proof indeed that not only is he not Jehovah,but that he depends upon him for his EVERY word deed and power.Now how in the world could anyone take that fact and think "Jesus is Jehovah"?!


John 13:16: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.(ahem..1 cor 15:27,28..use it or lose it ;)

John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

John 5: 43-44: I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?

John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


One last trinitarian objection I will address..John 12:41 talks about Isaiah seeing Jesus glory but Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory in Isaiah 6:1 so Jesus must be Jehovah!!

Cotext,context,context

Now Isaiah spoke about Jesus all through Isaiah ch 52 and 53 and the glory as represented by his suffering and resurrection.And according to context John ch 12(vs 23 & 37,38 to name just a couple) IS talking about Isaiah chs 52 &53...THAT is WHEN Isaiah spoke about Jesus..he didn't speak about Jesus in Isaiah ch 6...He did see a manifestation or a representation of Yahweh in Isaiah 6 though.Yahweh is the one who gave him the words TO SAY about Jesus in the 52nd and 53rd chapter.


Iaiah 52:10: LORD has bared his holy arm(that would be Jesus) in the sight of all the nations; All the ends of the earth will behold the salvation of our God...13:See, my servant shall prosper, he shall be raised high and greatly exalted

Isaiah 53:1:Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (is 51:9)
4:Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5:But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
11:After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

See also John 2:11:Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.(so glory is revealed in MANY ways..see also..John 11:4,1 Peter 1:11)

further explanation for this from this website:
http://www.scripturaltruths.com

Which says:
Isaiah saw the glory of the Messiah in his work.It was this work that was truly his glory. He lived, suffered and died, by which he “bore the sins of many,” (Isa. 53:12) resulting in our salvation.

As John points out, Isaiah himself had a basic understanding of this astounding unfaith. Isaiah experienced unbelieving rejection in his own ministry, but even more he saw Jesus’ glory [death/resurrection] and spoke about him."

When we consider John 12 we find that Isaiah 53:1 is quoted and is the primary text in view, whereas the passage from Isaiah 6 is cited to only further explain this primary text."

Jehovah isn't selfish in the allowance of his agents to bear strength and glory!However,he will never allow false idols or false gods to do so..which is the context the texts about him sharing his glory with no one should be viewed in light of..the surrounding events.And those were that people were praising graven images etc.Also,the texts about Yah being the only God and savior should be viewed in light of this context,as others ARE properly termed gods and saviors.Jesus is the chief inheritor of the greatest blessings of Jah.We live because of his sufferings,and so why,again,WOULDN'T Jah reward him for THAT?!

Reasoning with trinitarians.

What I have heard one too many times:
There can only be one first and last!.....If the same words or phrases are used of both it has to mean Jesus is God!

Let's say (and I am TERRIBLE AT THIS but a girl's gotta try)I open the first vegetarian restaurant in my hometown.And the last one,there will be no others.I could be called the first and the last to have done so.If I hired someone first who then hired everyone else FOR ME afterward (using my standards of qualification of course and hey,I'm STILL boss)he /she could be called the first and the last as well.The first person hired directly by me and the last hired directly by me.

I addressed this in another blog ,so I'll make it quick.Look at context..he was dead then alive(first resurrected by God directly)and the last directly by God because look!Jesus was GIVEN the key to resurrect others.(and yes revelation makes it clear by context that this is the most true interpretation,as a diff application)Once again,being USED by God and being bestowed with privileges by God. Also,they are both first and last of their kind.Jehovah is the first and last Almighty God and Jesus is the first and last unique only begotten chief messenger son of God.Also,Jesus is the first new creation of God and the last to be directly created by God alone since every other new creation is IN Christ Jesus as the one who holds it together by power from God.So,yep,diff applications,same terminology.Jah is clever like that.

If you took two similar people,say a father and a son(how convenient) and a book as big as the bible was written about them both,I bet you would find all kinds of similarities,especially if they worked together on everything and had the same jobs and purposes in life,Sharing the same morals and home ,you name it.And if you isolated the words or truths that could be applied to both,you might even think they were the same human being,but would that make it so?And if one was called son and one was called the father of that son,and let's say someone worked for them,and they both held positions higher than that someone,would it mean that the father and the son are the same person and boss?

Same terminology,different applications.

Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings(Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14),of which it SOUNDS like there could be only one!Melchizedeck is said to have no beginning or end of days or priesthood,which SOUNDS like that would be unique to him.But bible readers are aware the same is said of Christ's kingship and priesthood.The bible says that God is Jesus throne(which means he upholds Christ's kingship,as the appointer and statute giver) but that is also said of David and we know from revelation that the anointed members of Christ's bride are to sit up on that same throne!(see also 1 kings 2:24 and 1 chron 29:23)Jesus' disciples ,like Christ, were called "the light of the world." (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) Hebrews is a book that commonly uses OT passages and applies them to Jesus.Passages that formerly applied to David,Solomon and Jehovah.IF you are going to use the standards you want to use as a trinitarian,are you REALLY being fair?Is saying "well ,David and Solomon foreshadowed Christ so it isn't the same thing" a good reason to be bias here?No.Because the same texts are applied to both for the same reasons the ones about Jah are applied to Jesus...DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS AND FULFILLMENTS and pertaining to BOTH in different ways ..that simple.In other words,to be fair and unbiased ,if you are going to assume Jesus is Jehovah by this reasoning,then you MUST assume Jesus is David and Solomon,unless you're simply unwilling to be unbiased.If someone is wondering what I am talking about ..compare these texts :)..(ps 102:25-27, heb 1:10-12,ps 2:7,2 sam 7:14,heb 1:5,ps 22:22,heb2:12,ps 45:6-7,heb 1:9-10)To put it very simply,the words could be said of both because Christ was used by Jah to fulfill all things.So it is true in a different way for Jesus than it is for Jehovah,yet still true.

examine the following:

Exodus 12:51:And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.
Deuteronomy 32:12:The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him

Exodus 15:22:So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur

Does this mean that since Jehovah accomplished this ALONE that Moses is Jehovah?OR is Jehovah allowed credit for what his servants accomplish?And how do his servants accomplish these things?(John 5:27, John 17:2)Fortunately,the bible always helps us understand these sorts of things,with clarification in other texts(Psalm 77:20)

Jah clarified that He saved using(and by means of) Jesus :)(John 3:16)

also compare:

Exodus 7:17:God [now] says, 'Through this you will know that I am God.' I will strike the water of the Nile with the staff in my hand, and [the water] will turn into blood.

Exodus 7:19,20:[Aaron] held the staff up, and then struck the Nile's water in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials. The Nile's water was transformed into blood.

Self explanatory.

Also compare..

2 Sam reads 24:1 :"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."

1 Chron 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."

Satan and Jehovah are attributed with THE SAME THING..does it make them the same person?

See also:

Matthew 4:10:Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY

1 Chronicles 29:20:Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.

and..

1 Kings 1:23:And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.

Sometimes "proskeneo"(worship,bow down,obeisance etc) is appropriate when given to others besides Jehovah..if you don't like it take it up with him.It's RELATIVE "worship.".Proskeneo can mean a number of things and it is applied and accepted a # of times by a number of people.Trinitarians would like to believe this isn't the case..at least from my communication with them..they assume it is the same for Jesus and Jehovah and when anyone else is,it has to mean something else.And I say when it is given to ANYONE besides Jehovah,it means it is to his glory..as the one who appoints certain people to power and allows others to have dominion.If Jesus did anything that wasn't to the glory of his father,prove it.He acknowledged his father's superiority (even AFTER his ascension to heaven) and his reliance upon him at all times.I would venture to say that if you worship Jesus AS Almighty Jehovah God,you're doing something scripture does not tell you to do.Jesus is the second most high over all the universe,STILL second to God.(And NOT because he is in subordination as a wife would be to a husband but because NO ONE is equal to God..not even the one he MADE king,Lord,and firstborn..Acts 2:36,Ps. 89:27,1 Cor 15:27,28)Sons have NEVER not been given life by their fathers.Neva eva.So do trinitarians REALLY know Jesus?

If Jesus is used as the wisdom ,word ,agent and representative of God then yep you better believe they can both be called a lot of the same titles etc.


I dare anybody to find me a privilege,a special power,a glory,a single holy word that Jesus was not given from his own God and father.And if he was given what he has from his God and father,then couldn't it be said that the same titles and phrases would obviously be used for both?And couldn't the scriptures applied to Jah in the OT that are then applied to Jesus in the NT signify either different fulfillments OR just said of either because Jesus is Jah's word,chief messenger,and agent.(THROUGH whom he holds the world together and makes it new,judges,teaches,saves etc)??Keep in mind Jesus is his father's heir to a kingdom,so OF COURSE he is mighty and shares the SAME privileges,but it still doesn't make him the "same being" as the one who gave those to him.When Jehovah in the OT was talking about not sharing his glory etc. ,when you look at context(which is important,no?)he is defending himself as superior to false gods and idols and as the SOURCE of everything and everyone else,even Jesus!Which only makes sense since sons do not exist as the literal same perso"being" or God that their father is.And comparing the equality of a human son to a human father,despite subordination,is not the same as comparing a son of God to God because God is not human and is infinitely greater than everyone.(matt 19:17,john 14:28,john 20:17)Jesus is second in command(does Jah REALLY need to qualify EVERY TIME it says Jesus is above everyone and greater than everything that it is with the exception of the one who made that so??(1 cor 15:27,28),and I am not negating him..He's glad to be there.(John 13:16,John 5:30-32,Rev 1:1)


I'm going to encourage trinitarians to pray to Jehovah and talk to him only for once without even acknowleging Jesus until you are finished and then requesting everything in the name of Jesus..just ONCE to see how it feels.I'm not suggesting you don't acknowledge Jesus in prayer..Sometimes I appeal to and talk to him earnestly and wholeheartedly..I'm just asking you please see if you can't try to distinguish the two in a reasonable way,always requesting a spirit of understanding.(1 tim 2:5,John 14:6,matt 6:9-13)<--go to WHOM ultimately,through whom?Who is the one to ultimately be reached?I am addressing those who only know Jesus and assume that is the totality and end of worship.


Jesus is the way to God yes,the mediator..Does that mean we go to Jesus and stop there or that we reach Jehovah THROUGH him.In other words,isn't reaching Jehovah important in the whole picture?And how can we reach him whom we ignore in favor of only being attentive to our relationship with his appointed king and mediator?(who,mind you,prayed rigorously to and relied upon the same God we should,JAH!)Remember,God is jealous and wants us to use his provisions and understand we are too unholy to reach him without that sacrifice but we are able to now by means of that sacrifice.Take advantage!Jehovah wants you to talk to him and recognize him by means of his beloved Amen.If the mediator is a door to something,isn't the destination to be appreciated and desired?Shouldn't you be reaching both?And the word both alone implies two of something.And two means two.(I love discussing mathematics with trinitarians..who apparently think Jehovah is a times table)There is one Jesus Christ and one Jehovah God and they are not the same God.(1 cor 8:6)Jehovah is allowed to appoint kings and dispense power and give inheritances where he will.And we are to freely give a ton of honor to his most important appointed king,while yet recognizing that Christ is NOT in the same God as the one who bestowed upon him these tremendous blessings.It's common sense,no offense.That doesn't mean the ones he gives these things to literally become him.Just like the disciples won't become Christ even though they are one with him and will share the same responsibilities and glories and throne.(John 17:22,Revelation 2:27,28,Rev 3:21,5:10)

Are you aware one reason why Jehovah had to proclaim his singularity in the OT so much?Besides the fact that there were so many false gods being worshipped,but many of them were triune!From the time of Nimrod,Semaramis,and Tammuz on.When Nimrod died and people wanted someone else to venerate Tammuz(his son) was worshipped as "God the son"!<--THAT's where that phrase originated,NOT from the bible.All triune gods originated from those three in some way.As you can imagine,this had to be most appalling to Jah!I am thinking this is one reason he had to emphasize his singularity.He is defending himself from these triune notions(and other false ones),crying out to you from his holy word!LISTEN.(deut 6:4,psalm 83:18)

Exploring all this I get a little more peeved at the removal of the divine name thousands of times shamelessly from bible translations.Is man's superstition more important than Jehovah's commands?The appalling removal IMO has helped lead to the trinity doctrine.Since Yahweh is called Lord and God almost 7000 times instead of Yahweh,as was in the original texts,people associate common titles(1 cor 8:5) with Jah more than his personal name and so even subconsciously when they see Jesus being called Lord or even a couple times God (possibly...it's certainly debatable) they automatically think Almighty.I'm not suggesting that is the only reason people believe in it but it can't help!I find it personally disturbing that Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation translators are much maligned for inserting the divine name where 200 times (even though I agree they shouldn't have!)in the New Testament but everyone else gets a "get out of jail free" card for removing it almost 7000.(ex 3:15,Ps 145:21,matt 6:9,micah 4:5)

Why preach the kingdom?

Blog disclaimer:I am no longer a Jehovah's Witness.I disassociated.But much of this reasoning is still relevant and I still think it is important to proclaim the good news of God's kingdom in any way we can anywhere we can.Out of faith and love though instead of via organizational policy,seeking "acceptable" numbers on time slips.Much like their duplicity in many other areas,JW's will tell you not to compare your time slips and meeting attendance etc to others but yet if you don't go out in service enough nor attend every meeting,you are thought of as spiritually weak and possibly a bad association in many cases.Anyway,woe is us if we do not declare the good news out of faith and love however and I do admire the door to door work the JW's do.However,I think because they have many false teachings they're spreading,I recommend when they show up at your door to stress freedom in Christ as our mediator and savior alone.And that when an organization boasts for itself such titles,we have a real problem in the eyes of God who gave them to his Son alone.

Any way,here's the old blog:


Is an idle faith an acceptable faith?What does the love of God mean?What does being obedient entail?To examine all scriptures and mold our lives accordingly..or to take a few and assume we're ok because Christ died for us?Is neglecting to observe Christ's footsteps closely ok for a christian(1 Peter 2:21,matt 10:38)?Again,what did Christ do?Did he constantly supplicate,rely on Jehovah for power and blessing,and minister to others the good news and the proclamaton of his father's name and purpose and kingdom?(john 17:26)Or did he pay mouth service while he simply waited for salvation and rested ?BUT is that faith like Christ's faith if it is confined to the heart and mind with no EXERCISING of it involved?In no way,shape or form can we "earn" salvation,but faith implies more than a heart condition..unless the heart condition moves us to service obedience and conformity to the standards of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.(Is 64:8,1 John 5:3)I'm sure many in Noah's and Lot's days believed in God and thought they loved him..where did they go wrong?

*Proverbs 24:12-shall not he render to every man according to his works?

*James 1:22-But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

*James 2:24,26-You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone..For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

*Hebrews 10:26-If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

*Matthew 4:4-Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

*Acts 1:8-you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

*John 14:12-Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the one who believes in me will also do what I am doing. He will do even greater things than these

*Psalm 118:17-shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.

*Matthew 24:14-This Good News about the kingdom will be spread throughout the world as a testimony to all nations. Then the end will come

*Romans 10:13..Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.14.."How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15..How can people tell the Good News if no one sends them? As Scripture says, "How beautiful are the feet of the messengers who announce the Good News."

*1 Corinthians 15:58-Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

*Acts 20:20-I never shrank from telling you anything that would help you nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house(see also Luke 10:1-6)

*2 Timothy 4:5-Do the work of an evangelist. Devote yourself completely to your ministry

*Matthew 5:16-In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven

*Psalm 68:11-The women who announce the good news are a large army.

*2 Corinthians 5:20-we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

*2 Timothy 2:4-No man that wars entangles himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who has chosen him to be a soldier

*Acts 28:30,31-preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered

*1 Timothy 4:16-Pay close attention to your life and your teaching. Persevere in these things, because if you do so, you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

*Colossians 3:23-And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men

*Titus 2:14-Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous for good works

*Ephesians 6:15-and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE

*Ezekial 33:7 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8 When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 9 But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.

*Isaiah 6:8-Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Not only is it of utmost importance to declare the only way for peace is through God's kingdom(dan 2:44) but to do so in all sincerity and love,hoping for those rightly disposed(acts 13:48) to become reconciled to their creator and Father and his King and son.It's a serious and life giving invitation and message(Revelation 14:6,7) that anyone can accept who is willing to humble themselves under the mighty hand of God and succumb to His benevolent and loving authority.Even though the road is narrow(matthew 7:14),as a loving father,he DESIRES all to attain to repentance(2 peter 3:9) and accept his provisions(rev 22:17).His standards are high because he is holy( 1 Peter 1:16) but with his spirit that he provides obedient lovers of truth,all things are possible.Praise Jah!


The road is narrow,so what can we conclude from that?(matt 7:21-23)Not only do we have the Word of God but we have resources everywhere now from the library to googling to our ability to reason(all along WITH the bible) to "make sure of all things"..Allow the word to mold you even when others accept tradition as truth.(mark 7:13,Gal 1:14,2 tim 4:3,2 thes 2:11,12)That way your teachings to others will be based in the good and acceptable truth and will of God.

Trinitarian standards

This is a blog I've compiled to show the fallacy of trinitarian reasoning.At least that is what I hope it does.When one reads certain scriptures through a trinitarian biased lens,one sees something in scripture that is not intended imo.Jehovah is one Jehovah,not triune Jehovah.First I point out trinitarian standards for making Christ God then I explain how it means others have to be God too.

***Isaiah 42:8
God shares his glory with no one so since Christ has the glory of God he must be God

John 17:22:And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

Not only does Christ get glory from God but the disciples do as well so by trinitarian standards,the disciples could each be called Almighty God.

In context,Jehovah is talking about not sharing glory with false gods and idols.But he gives glory to true followers and plenty glory to Jesus,his most important exalted son.

***Hosea 13:4:No one is savior but God therefore Jesus must be God.

Isaiah 43:11"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me(NASB)
....
1 Samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bile in basic English)

Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb's younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God's world translation)

Isaiah 19:20:he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them

Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)

By trinitarian standards,anyone Jehovah sent forth to save or rescue his people could be called almighty God.
I can only urge you to look at the number of people called "savior" and what they all have in common is that Jehovah sent them to save.Who sent Christ?(John 3:16)

Obviously when Jehovah sends someone to save us they are savior too,but,again,who sent them?Jehovah is saving THROUGH them.Of course,the GREATEST of those he has sent has been Jesus himself "the greater Moses,the greater Solomon "etc.

****Jesus is obviously God because only God can perform the miracles Jesus performed and judge people and resurrect the dead etc.

Ok,I agree only God has that power BUT also ANYONE he GIVES that power to,sometimes THROUGH Christ.There's an order here.Some examples of others doing the same kinds of things or being given the authority and spirit to do so.

John 20:23:If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.(Jesus gives disciples permission and authority to forgive sin!)

Acts 9:36-42 Peter resurrected Tabitha!

Acts 20:7-12 Paul raised Eutychus!

Joshua 10:12,13:made sun and moon motionless

Romans 2:16 God through Christ judges(just one of many scriptures explaining how Christ has authority)

By trinitarian standards Peter Paul and the rest of the disciples could each be a coequal Almighty God in a "godhead".

***Christ raised himself from the dead(John 2:19:And in three days I will raise it up)

Galatians 1:1 as well as every OTHER scripture attributes the raising to the father.And I know the trinitarian argument is that all three accomplished this and I agree, but in what sense?

observe the following verses:

Luke 8:48 Jesus says to a woman: "Your faith has made you well." This woman was healed not by herself but because her faith provided the reason and basis.Similarly ,Christ,through obedience love and supplication,provided the moral basis on which Jehovah would raise him.You would have to ignore NUMEROUS texts to believe that Jesus LITERALLY raised himself.Including all those that define death as well as the reasoning in texts like Hebrews 5:7.

John 4:1-3When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John

Now from this text you might assume Jesus baptized but he didn't it was through his disciples that he did.

So by trinitarian standards people can heal themselves and Jesus baptized people in water when he did no such thing.In other words,sometimes,based on logic and biblical context(wider too!) certain texts are clearly figurative.

***Colossians 2:9:For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form..
Therefore ,Jesus HAS TO BE GOD!

ok,Ephesians 1:22:And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church
23Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all

John 1:16:And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace

By trinitarian standards Christ's followers have to be God because Christ is God and all his fullness is in them.
All this means is that God's holy spirit is upon them and within them to whatever measure he allows and sees fit.

***"I and the father are one.If you've seen me you've seen the father."Therefore Jesus must be God!

By trinitarian standards the disciples are each individually Almighty God as well and since they will represent Christ and God and do even greater works then Christ they must be God.If they have all these powers and are one with God then they have to be God too right?(John 17:11,21)

***Jesus is "Immanuel" God with us! So he has to be God!

Have you studied all the names in the bible and what they mean?If not,I hope you will then you will see that with this trinitarian logic,almost anyone could be assumed to be God.Israel,Elisha,Elijah,Daniel,Michael,Ezekial,Joel(etc.) all contain within them "el",meaning God.If we were to take many bible names and look at their meaning to determine whether or not those ones were God with the same standards trinitarians do with Immanuel,then God's substance would be quite expansive,with a number or "persons."Obviously ,Jesus represented God and therefore was "God with us" in that respect just like Moses was and just like angels were,except on a grander scale because he is far greater than anyone besides his own God and my God,Jehovah.

***Jesus was worshipped therefore he has to be God!


Matthew 4:10 "You must Worship Yahweh your God and you must serve him only."

1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king." (see my blog about John 20:28 too)

So according to trinitarian standards,kings and angels could be Jehovah as well..The same word for worship used for Christ is also used for kings and Christians(etc.)

Revelation 3:9:Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

God makes the syngogue of Satan worship Christians just like he makes everyone worship Jesus.Why?To his glory because he's love.

***Jesus was the image and form of God therefore he must be God.

Man was created in God's image.Is man God?Have you ever seen anything or anyone in the form of another and existing as the person they are in the form of?(bad English)In other words,Jesus can't be God by this very logic.


I'm not insisting that trinitarians could ever believe all these other people are Jehovah,I'm simply pointing out that by the standards they themselves employ with Jesus,others could as well from a nontrinitarian standpoint.There are many more I wanted to point out but I'll save it for a rainy day.

God is love..Jesus most assuredly demonstrated that love and made God's love and purpose become fulfilled by dying for us!Jesus is most certainly in union with Yahweh and Yahweh uses his holy spirit to assure his every will gets done.Simple as that.

Jesus does nothing of his own initiative,only looks to do his father's will,and lives to please and glorify his father.Everything from authority to power to life blessing and kingship has been given him FROM his father.He didn't even have a name greater than the angels until he inherited one through obedience and overcoming and saving us.He has been used by Jehovah BECAUSE of their mutual love for one another to be his word,his mouthpiece,his messenger,the mediator,our savior.Any words or phrases that can be used of both of them are because of the following:

1 Corinthians 8:6 (New International Version)
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

2 Corinthians 1:20:for as many as are promises of God, in him are the Yes, and in him the Amen, for glory to God through us

When God sends messengers,appoints kings,sends angels..they are called God sometimes.Their words are his,their actions are by means of his spirit and those listening to them are listening to God and those" proskuneoing" them are glorifying God,the ONE who sent them.

Just as God's agents and messengers have always done the things they do by means of God and hence phrases and titles can sometimes be interchanged between them and God,such is also with his greatest messenger of all,Jesus!

Jesus is my savior.King of God's kingdom,Second most high over all the universe.Mediator between God and man.I follow his footsteps closely and live to do what he did..proclaim his father's name and herald the kingdom message.He is the way to God,always proclaims the truth as God's greatest mouthpiece and by his death,I can have life.He is the wisdom of God(the smartest creation by God) the word of God(proclaiming God's truths and fulfilling his prophecies) and will herald in a new heavens and a new earth by the power of God.His kingdom will last an eternity and will never be brought to ruin.There will be no more wickedness death or chaos under his reign.Everything is in subjection to him except for His God.His God is my God.And through him,I reach my God.He LIVES to do his father's will and loves his father more than we can imagine and relies on him for everything.He has inherited a name greater then the angels and has been exalted due to perfect obedience which came from supplication and love.That is who Jesus is.

John 20:28

Blog disclaimer :I am no longer a Jehovah's Witness and I now readily identify Jesus as my Lord and my God because he has GREAT authority over me because His God, the Only True God, granted it to him. Though I think the explanation in this blog is certainly possible, it very well could be that Thomas recognized Jesus as his Lord and his God, without that having to mean that Jesus was the SAME God whom his father is, but rather simply able to bear the title in his role as Chief agent of the Most High and One with more authority over others than anyone else in the world has with the exception of the one who gave it to him.

John 20:28 (King James Version)
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


In 1 Corinthians 8:5,6, non-trinitarians know Paul isn't referring to Yahweh according to a million (don't know exact #) other scriptures where there is a CLEAR distinction between Jesus and Jehovah (NOT in the same godhead, which literally means holy, not 3 persons in 1 God). 1+1=2. Many are right in saying Jesus was (a mighty) God because he was and still is the most powerful representative of God. He is the "greater Moses", who is ALSO called God .(Powerful men representing Jehovah are sometimes called God.) If His spirit is upon them then they are "God with us", doing His will and not their own. This would be why throughout the NT we hear these words over and over "God AND Christ Jesus our Lord. (1+1=2)..Jesus STILL and always will have a God! (Matthew 27:46, Eph 1:17, 1 Cor 11:3, the latter 2 written AFTER Christ's ascension to heaven.) Saying that one person within the same godhead (again,means "divine",NOT 3 in 1 God) is in submission to another is farfetched to say the least and dangerously assumptive. (1+1+1=3) Can't Thomas acknowledge Jesus power and glory and also recognize who gave that power and glory TO Jesu s(WHILE Jesus personifies His father's will) in the expression in John 20:28? (Mtt 9:8,John 11:40) Which is what I believe he did. No one may see God and yet live! If Jesus stood before me with the glory and spirit of God upon him an exclamation of "My God!" WOULD be appropriate. Because Jesus is used BY GOD to REPRESENT Him and to accomplish His will. (John 13:31,32) God tends to do that (use others to represent him and to accomplish his will.Sorry for the repetition but it is important.)

If I may refer you to Joshua 5:14,15 where an angel of Yahweh is worshipped (proskuneo can mean other things than worship..so use discernment) and there is NO correction from the angel not to do so BECAUSE he is there to represent his creator too and therefore it could be said he was "God with Joshua". And it could be said that the "worship" is glorifying the one he represents.

ALSO, I refer you to Judges chapter 13:verses 18 and 22 where Manoah saw an angel of Yahweh, THEN says that he saw God!

SEE ALSO Genesis 32:30: And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (He encountered an angel, not Almighty God.)

Jesus is greater than an angel..getting the point yet?(the bible doesn't say it was his rightful place all along but that he was EXALTED above angels BECAUSE of his obedience and faithfulness)(Hebrews 1:4)..Who exalted him? Was it his father, the one you think is in the same God that he is? And this makes sense to you? Discarding platonic philosophy(even with it ),the trinity has no basis in reason, biblically speaking. What a coincidence that Platonic philosophy and much touted at the very time the Nicene creed was formulated, as well as the early ECF's being blatantly Platonically schooled! (Colossians 2:8,1 Corinthians 3:19) Not to mention pagan three in one gods. Not to mention Constantine's desire for pleasing everyone, including the pagans and philosophically minded.

I LOVE Jesus. I love his God too! In fact, I have the SAME GOD Jesus does.

In the SAME chapter (ch 20 verse 17) Jesus said: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." To whom was he ascending?..in verse 31,again Jesus is referred to as the SON of God. Those who say son of God=God because son of man=man have no ground to stand on BECAUSE God cannot be likened to man. HIS sons cannot be equal to Him! Because he HAS NO equal. Perhaps functionally equal according to whatever amount of God's spirit is in them as God works through them,though. (John 3:34,Acts 2:22) Sons come after fathers, not before or at the same time. If ANYONE is a son of God then he CANNOT be God. Sons of God are identified as such precisely because they are not God..IF God begets someone (John 1:18) then there is no way the begotten and the one brought forth is God. It defies logic and is an outright lie. We are taught to "reason with the scriptures"..God is not the author of confusion. (1 Cor 14:33) The trinity is described as a "mystery" by even its adherrents. And God wants us to KNOW him, as a singularity(Deut 6:4) who USES people and angels and his most beloved who he made firstborn (Ps. 89:27,Colossians 1:15) to get HIS will done! (Mark 14:36,John 5:30)

God means "a strong one"..(see Ex 7:1,2 Cor 4:4,Isaiah 9:6)..Psalm 82:6 is quoted by Jesus himself when they said he was "making himself equal to God". He compared himself to the creation of God!..(John 10:35)

Psalm 82:6: I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Observing Christians' eagerness to deify two in addition to the unipersonal God of the Shema (ie Jesus plus the holy spirit of God), I see more evidence of the importance of God's personal name. (John 17:3,26,Psalm 83:18) Considering that people sometimes misuse titles like lord and god to create a multipersonal being.

God cannot be likened to man nor can he be called a son of man, nor can he be born or die ,yet trinitarians won't hesitate to call him a son of man. God cannot be literally seen (and HAS never been literally seen save for representatives and manifestations of his glory) and yet someone live, again. Not face to face!

Jesus was tempted (Matt 4:1,James 1:13), called a son of man, was clearly seen, and died to save us. Thank you Jesus! "The Last Adam" (Romans 5:14), "the mighty one" (God) indeed!


Now please recognize that my intent is not to offend or condescend any trinitarians or Christians (of which I am one, a Christian that is) but to defend my faith and proclaim what I believe to be the truth straight from the word of God. And, of course, also to hopefully get people to ponder for instance questions like these: Why is it ok to call Moses and angels God? Why were angels "worshipped " in some instances? Why can God be likened to a son of man if he cannot be likened to man? Is a mediator ever either one of the persons he is mediating between? Is anyone ever beside a "being" or with a "being" and still able to be that "being"? If someone inherits everything from someone can that person be the same One from whom they inherited everything? Can you really make real sense out of believing that there is one God and one person in submission to another person within that one God (with solid evidence from the word..not just assumptions from misunderstood scriptures)? If God is three in one, why didn't he just say so? It's a pretty big bible to just have that omitted to be "mysterious" when He wants us to know him. Questions like that.

In summary, there are two possibilities for John 20:28. Either Thomas was recognizing Jesus as his lord and his God (as one who had been granted all authority over him by THE Shema's God) OR perhaps Thomas was recognizing Jesus as his Lord and IN ADDITION TO THAT God the father IN CHRIST (His Son), reconciling the world unto himself in the resurrected Christ!:) Examine,with reasoning please:

John 14:9:Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

2 Corinthians 5:19:God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself

Colossians 2:9:For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

After the resurrection of Christ,how much more would the indwelling of the *father*(the only true God..John 17:3) within the being of the glorified Messiah be punctuated and apparent? Yes,Thomas could very well have been seeing God the father in Christ our Lord and acknowledging it excitedly!

Trinity answers

These are questions I found on a website for the trinity.I had pasted them in my documents and just briefly answered and so pasted my answers(beginning with *) with them.I can't find the website(where I got the questions) anymore.Forgive me.

1) If Jesus is a created being and not fully God, then it is hard to see how He as a creature could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins.** because everything he has, all power and authority has been GIVEN him to the glory of the father..Yahweh wished it to be so and caused it to be so. His name literally means "he causes to become"..If He sends his spirit upon someone then that person is able to do all that God allows him to do. 2) If Jesus is not fully God then justification by faith alone is called into question. If Jesus isn't fully God, then we could rightly doubt whether we can fully trust Him to save us completely.**He is the "second Adam"..Adam was the first created earthly man and Jesus was the first perfect man of God's NEW creation, uniquely begotten by God's spirit through a virgin womb. They were both sons of God ..God is perfectly just so a perfect son had to buy back what another perfect son had lost. That equals salvation. (in the name of justice)..God could foreknow that Jesus would perfectly fulfill all his salvation plans for mankind without Jesus ever having to be God. Just the faithful and true LAST ADAM. 3) If Jesus is not fully God, should we pray to Him? Who but an infinite God has the ability to hear and respond to all the prayers of all of God's people? Would it not be idolatry to worship Jesus (no matter how powerful) if He isn't fully God? Yet in Philippians 2:9-11 and Revelation 5:12-14 we are taught to worship Jesus.**1st of all there are different meanings of proskuneo. It could be just obeisance or reverence. But if it is worship it ALSO is to THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER. People proskuneoe'd kings and representatives of Yahweh all through the OT so how much more so would people worship, admire, and bow before the appointed king of God's heavenly kingdom? It isn't idolatry or polytheism if God tells us to bow before someone. In the OT, he usually stressed the worship of himself only because of idol and false god worship, not because of people's reverence for his representatives and kings he had made mighty. Also, I don't see a problem in addressing Jesus in prayer as long as you recognize his father's role in his exalted position and use him as mediator to reach the Almighty..who always uses representatives and mediators. In other words, if you address Jesus in prayer, recognize his might and power, but also recognize his father's giving that might and power to him. The Lord's prayer is our model prayer and we are to address the father (who even trinitarians know isn't Jesus) in Jesus name,as mediator between God and man. 4) If somebody denies that Jesus is fully God who has always possessed all the attributes of God; yet nonetheless say that it was Jesus who saves us; then this teaching wrongly begins to attribute credit for salvation to a creature and not to God Himself. **They are both saviors..they can individually be called saviors as well because the salvation would not have occurred if Yahweh hadn't sent his son and if Jesus hadn't complied and died. For an example and to put things in perspective examine the following verses:

At revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father

Now from this we can conclude this:
Jehovah..shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers
also
Jesus..shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers
AND
the faithful anointed shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers

Make sense?
If God grants power to persons, they too have God's power to whatever extent he gives it.


5) If Jesus is not fully God, then the independence and personal nature of God is at stake: If there is no Trinity of three persons, each of which are fully God, then there were no interpersonal relationships within God before creation. Without interpersonal relationships, it is difficult to see how God could be genuinely personal and how we could relate to such a being.* **EVEN WE are created in his image and we are able to connect with others without having the example of multiple personages within our body. So this argument is moot. And if you use the argument that man can be father, son, and brother all at the same time, I ask you..can the brother role within that man be called that man alone? God, like man, has many attributes and roles to play and fill, but all those attributes and roles are not literal people come to life individually inside him. Who in the world says God has to be surrounded by multiple persons within his own being to be able to aptly be called love or filled with such? I can be alone and yet love. Even if I was alone in the world. In fact ..I would want others like me around which is probably why God created to begin with. Self love is every bit as palpable as love shared with others. GOD IS LOVE.