This is part of a couple mails I sent to people with an Arian Christology(in that they think Christ preexisted without having to hold to every belief Arius had,as no one is sure of that since his writings were burned)One thing I've learned is that those with an "Arian" type Christology disagree amongst themselves who Jesus was before he came here and who he is now.As I've said before,to me this is a red flag.
In response to one guy's assertion that Christ was raised a life giving spirit(1 Cor. 15:45) and that this somehow proves he isn't a glorified man(Acts 17:31,1 Tim 2:5):
You say you think Jesus was raised a spirit..I do too..but in what respect?The answer is in the context.A LIFE GIVER,a spiritualized BODY(verse 44).In this respect is he a pneuma..encompassing what the holy spirit accomplishes.The life and spirit he is filled to the tip top with BODILY(Colossians 2:9..correct?) gives life to the world.Like soul,I am assuming "spirit" can either refer to the life of a person or the entire person.I could be called a soul,a spirit(though not in the same respect as Yahshua as lifegiver!),or a body.Also,as a reasoning point..God is love.Does this mean God is LITERALLY the virtue love or that he is so full of it's power that he can be called love?Clearly the context of 1 Corinthians 15:35-54 is all about BODIES,perishable and corruptible ones being distinguished from imperishable,immortal,and incorruptible spiritual ones.Nothing in this chapter about disembodiment unless you simply read the text you're using without context.Jesus said after he was raised that he was not a spirit..but that he had flesh and bone..like we will have at the resurrection.His body was raised and made so new as to be almost unrecognizable I'm sure,just like ours will be.(1 Cor. 15:44,53)Yahshua's resurrected life giving spiritual body is being emphasized against the first Adam's that didn't have that life giving power,that same spirit."Pneuma" here simply means lifegiver.The stone was rolled away by a real corporeal flesh body/person.Was Christ trying to fool everyone by saying he wasn't a spirit and doing things like rolling a stone away so his body could pass?(Luke 24:39,Mark 16:4)
In response to someone using Hebrews 1:3,which says:"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature":
You also seem to think Jesus being the copy and imprint of God means he has to be the same substance,made of the same stuff.In a respect he is in that he has so much of God's spirit that he is.(John 3:34)However,this doesn't eradicate the fact that this spirit dwells in him in bodily form.(Col 2:9)Charakter(the greek word for express image) would certainly connote that Yahshua is just like his father.But let's pretend I was a spirit no one could see and I worked through another who people COULD see as my representative and viceregent,that representative could be said to be my express image if I had the power to fill them bodily with something called holy spirit by which I perform through others my will.He or she would be my copy in that he said and did what I would,had the same personality,and conformed to my will.Hupostasis(greek for nature or person) can mean person..now to be the exact representative of someone's person or nature would be easy for Yahshua because God works through him and he is that one's image.(Acts 2:22,John 10:25,Colossians 1:15)So full,again,of Yahweh's spirit(John 3:34),that he exactly does and says what Yahweh would say and do.(John 5:30,12:49)Does this mean he doesn't have the fullness corporeally?Of course not.The bible says he does.(Colossians 2:9)And Jesus himself testified to being raised bodily in the flesh.(John 2:19-21,1 John 4:3,Luke 24:39)The bible still calls Jesus a corporeal man,glorified and exalted beyond match,but it says what it says(Acts 17:31,1 Tim. 2:5).There is no grander testimony to God's will and personality and nature than Yahshua the Messiah.
In response to a guy saying he doesn't know what Jesus was in his preexistent form but knows he was called "Word":
As for Jesus supposedly being a preexistent being named "Word"..this is foreign to the bible upon thoughtful examination.It was the word from Yahweh's MOUTH that he created by(Psalm 33:6)..that same word,encompassing Yahweh's self expression,plans,and creative will(Isaiah 55:11,Revelation 4:11),became flesh in John 1:14 when Yahshua fulfilled God's prophecies,greatest plans,and creative will.All things were created in Yahshua as God foreknew his role as the sustainer of all things by means of his obedience,death,resurrection,and redemptive power.(Heb. 1:3,Ephesians 1:9, 10, 20-23, 2:10, 15 )God knew his desired will & creation could never be ultimately realized,fulfilled,or sustained without the Son that was slain from the foundation of the world(Rev. 13:8) in God's foreknowledge and plans.(1 Peter 1:20)In this respect,the original creation was made in Christ.And in a more literal capacity,the new creation is brought about by Yahshua as master and Lord and king,heir of all things,through whom God gives life to the world.(2 Cor. 5:17, 18,1 John 1:2,2:24,25)If it was the word from God's mouth that he created by,why would this suggest to you that a person named Word was next to him creating for him?Yahshua and the apostles only ever spoke of Yahweh their God and father resting on the 7th day and creating in genesis.(Heb 4:3,4)Why would they not mention Jesus was there helping as agent?That would be a serious point to omit.
HE who created them from the beginning(Matt. 19:4)
the creation which GOD created(Mark 13:19).
appointed him (Yahshua)over the works of Your (Yahweh's)hands (Heb. 2:7)
And finally in response to a couple people who have accused me of denigrating my Lord and master:
Yahshua is my king,Lord,savior,Messiah,mediator,father,brother..the love of my life,what God intended for men to be.The forerunner and firstborn of many brothers .God has given him the spirit fully to make all the righteous anew in his image.My intercessor,my glory,my redeemer,my hope ,my way,truth and life.If that's nothing special,then the bible doesn't think Yahshua is special.If that's a denigration,then we should all be so blessed to be denigrated.
What's so ironic is that Yahshua and others of the earliest times of Christianity were persecuted and hated for believing a MAN,as opposed to God,a godman ,or some literally ancient being,could be so glorified,gifted,and loved by Yahweh.That he could be Lord and king of all things,could be extolled to the inimitable position Christ now possesses by the love and generosity of Yahweh and not because of some "nature" or "age."(Luke 3:22,Phil. 2:6-11,Heb. 1:9)But that would be the case nevertheless according to my understanding.Is history repeating itself?People are STILL offended when you say Yahshua was and is still a man,without adding other natures to make him worthy of the titles and positions he holds..Greater than any other in a million respects,but nevertheless,the Last Adam.He is Lord and king and lifegiver to be sure,but all granted by Yahweh for this to be so.Why CAN'T Yah give this to the genuine flesh Last Adam,as opposed to an archangel,a spirit creature who's "old enough" or another supposed member of his "being" as an excuse for this functional equality and exaltation?Could it be our traditions that make us think this notion is somehow repelling?And not scripture itself?God is love..Yahshua deserves that love..And we are made by Yahweh in Yahshua,who is our lifegiver by means of what he's accomplished and been given,as opposed to lifegiver literally by hand.We are given life in and through him.It's incredible in the most poignant way imaginable.Praise Yahweh and Yahshua!
Showing posts with label Socinian Christology. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Socinian Christology. Show all posts
Monday, August 23, 2010
Tuesday, August 17, 2010
Jesus's preexistence
I came across a brief "debate" between Anthony Buzzard and a trinitarian and was gazing over the comments by people who had listened.I came across a couple I found compelling..Now these are edited by me to bring out what I found to be the most interesting ..if you want to see the FULL comments or to read more OR of course to listen to the debate,visit this link:
http://lineoffireradio.askdrbrown.org/2010/02/08/february-8-2010/
a man named Brad said,in relation to the preexistence of Christ:
On the issue of pre-existence, the Holy Spirit makes a special point in Jeremiah that God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mother’s womb. This “doctrine” of God’s confession of a “relationship knowledge” of a person prior to their birth is also set forth in detail in Psalm 139:14-17 where the infinite knowledge of God (God’s thoughts are without number) is said to encompass a knowledge of a human being prior to their birth (in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them). If Jesus as man had a greater revelation of this point than David or Jeremiah, he might well have shared it. In fact, if this point is true, we might imagine the Son of Man being filled with this understanding as he looked at himself, as David and Jeremiah had, through the eternal eyes of His Father.
If God the Father “knew” Jeremiah before he was born, and if God’s infinite knowledge and eternal point of view is accepted as a legitimate and authoritative frame of reference, and if Christ is the Logos made flesh, i.e. the self-expression of God the Father made human, one would think that such a human would have a transcendent self-image with respect to time, a vastly expanded experience of the revelation given to Jeremiah (Jer 1:5) and David (Psalm 139:14-18).
Let us ask ourselves, what was Christ’s self image like if he had a full revelation of God’s eternal perspective of him? And what if part of God’s intent in sending Christ was to give the rest of us a window into this eternal perspective — taking us to the destination that Jeremiah and David had pointed toward? Are we “seated in heavenly places” in Christ? Were we known before we were born? Were we not “created in Christ Jesus” and “chosen in him before the foundation of the world”? What if God wanted us to have a vehicle or paradigm for an eternal self-image, couldn’t He provide that in a perfect, pattern Son?
The truth is, much of Paul’s teaching extrapolates on the stated and unstated premise that we are to view our identities as eternally fixed in the Son. And the starting point for that discussion has to be some concept of a “Son” that transcends time, not as a second person of a tri-une (complex) God, but as a foreknown, prototype man who “was and is” the self expression of the ONE God– the Logos.
Brad went on to say in another comment(I'm assuming it's the same Brad!And again,this is edited.):
We try to lay out doctrines and creeds to define God; we would do better to let our hearts get to know God and His Son as individuals, as persons, as beings, and let their respective positions and personalities speak for themselves. Jesus said that His Father was “His God”; the man Christ is worshipping His God in heaven today. And God the Father is receiving that worship — which is coming from the heart of the only person, other than the Father, who is completely perfect, and pure in heart. Let’s not let doctrine rob us of such a beautiful reality!
Brad goes on to say:
God the Father distinguishes the human lineage of Christ as the basis for the honor due Christ. This is the BIG stumbling stone it seems to me, even today. At His trial, Jesus was finally found “guilty of death” when he confessed that He was the Son of the Blessed, and that as the Son of Man would be sitting at the right hand of His Father. That statement was enough to convict him.
Now, if I were to say, Jesus is one with His Father as man, and as man is due the same honor that is due His Father, based solely on His unique and profound birthright — in other words, that His human lineage and human relationship to God as human Son –puts him at the right hand of God — and gives him oneness with the Father — that God Himself accepts this as appropriate legal grounds for the honor and majesty attributable to His Son, then watch out.
And yet Jesus as man can say that God is His literal Father — and I say that this Sonship gives Jesus a birthright of Divine dimensions…that’s right, a birthright of Divine dimensions.
What is interesting is that history is repeating itself. the religious of our day are stumbled by the idea that Jesus, as MAN, is due the SAME honor that His biological Father is due. If you hang your hat on that point alone, you WILL be called a heretic by the mainstream of Christianity. It is blasphemy. You must recant, or say that He is one with God in some way other than “merely” as an only begotten human Son. Am I right?
In other words, if Jesus Christ was on (religious) trial today, and made no claims to be part of a complex unity, no claims to be a second person of God, but merely stated that he was the only begotten Son of God, as man, had been given His Father’s name, and all power in heaven and earth, and that God was requiring the world to honor Him as they Honor the Father — with only Luke 1:35 as a basis, he’d be called a heretic and a blasphemer.
How ironic…
http://lineoffireradio.askdrbrown.org/2010/02/08/february-8-2010/
a man named Brad said,in relation to the preexistence of Christ:
On the issue of pre-existence, the Holy Spirit makes a special point in Jeremiah that God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mother’s womb. This “doctrine” of God’s confession of a “relationship knowledge” of a person prior to their birth is also set forth in detail in Psalm 139:14-17 where the infinite knowledge of God (God’s thoughts are without number) is said to encompass a knowledge of a human being prior to their birth (in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them). If Jesus as man had a greater revelation of this point than David or Jeremiah, he might well have shared it. In fact, if this point is true, we might imagine the Son of Man being filled with this understanding as he looked at himself, as David and Jeremiah had, through the eternal eyes of His Father.
If God the Father “knew” Jeremiah before he was born, and if God’s infinite knowledge and eternal point of view is accepted as a legitimate and authoritative frame of reference, and if Christ is the Logos made flesh, i.e. the self-expression of God the Father made human, one would think that such a human would have a transcendent self-image with respect to time, a vastly expanded experience of the revelation given to Jeremiah (Jer 1:5) and David (Psalm 139:14-18).
Let us ask ourselves, what was Christ’s self image like if he had a full revelation of God’s eternal perspective of him? And what if part of God’s intent in sending Christ was to give the rest of us a window into this eternal perspective — taking us to the destination that Jeremiah and David had pointed toward? Are we “seated in heavenly places” in Christ? Were we known before we were born? Were we not “created in Christ Jesus” and “chosen in him before the foundation of the world”? What if God wanted us to have a vehicle or paradigm for an eternal self-image, couldn’t He provide that in a perfect, pattern Son?
The truth is, much of Paul’s teaching extrapolates on the stated and unstated premise that we are to view our identities as eternally fixed in the Son. And the starting point for that discussion has to be some concept of a “Son” that transcends time, not as a second person of a tri-une (complex) God, but as a foreknown, prototype man who “was and is” the self expression of the ONE God– the Logos.
Brad went on to say in another comment(I'm assuming it's the same Brad!And again,this is edited.):
We try to lay out doctrines and creeds to define God; we would do better to let our hearts get to know God and His Son as individuals, as persons, as beings, and let their respective positions and personalities speak for themselves. Jesus said that His Father was “His God”; the man Christ is worshipping His God in heaven today. And God the Father is receiving that worship — which is coming from the heart of the only person, other than the Father, who is completely perfect, and pure in heart. Let’s not let doctrine rob us of such a beautiful reality!
Brad goes on to say:
God the Father distinguishes the human lineage of Christ as the basis for the honor due Christ. This is the BIG stumbling stone it seems to me, even today. At His trial, Jesus was finally found “guilty of death” when he confessed that He was the Son of the Blessed, and that as the Son of Man would be sitting at the right hand of His Father. That statement was enough to convict him.
Now, if I were to say, Jesus is one with His Father as man, and as man is due the same honor that is due His Father, based solely on His unique and profound birthright — in other words, that His human lineage and human relationship to God as human Son –puts him at the right hand of God — and gives him oneness with the Father — that God Himself accepts this as appropriate legal grounds for the honor and majesty attributable to His Son, then watch out.
And yet Jesus as man can say that God is His literal Father — and I say that this Sonship gives Jesus a birthright of Divine dimensions…that’s right, a birthright of Divine dimensions.
What is interesting is that history is repeating itself. the religious of our day are stumbled by the idea that Jesus, as MAN, is due the SAME honor that His biological Father is due. If you hang your hat on that point alone, you WILL be called a heretic by the mainstream of Christianity. It is blasphemy. You must recant, or say that He is one with God in some way other than “merely” as an only begotten human Son. Am I right?
In other words, if Jesus Christ was on (religious) trial today, and made no claims to be part of a complex unity, no claims to be a second person of God, but merely stated that he was the only begotten Son of God, as man, had been given His Father’s name, and all power in heaven and earth, and that God was requiring the world to honor Him as they Honor the Father — with only Luke 1:35 as a basis, he’d be called a heretic and a blasphemer.
How ironic…
Saturday, August 7, 2010
John 8:58
1 Corinthians 15:10:But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
Paul here more accurately quotes Yahweh and says "I am what I am"..no one would think he's Yahweh for doing so.
The apostles used the Septuagint and in it at Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh says:
14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
So Yahweh says EGO EIMI HO ON.The ego eimi wasn't his title but simply a phrase,namely *I am,* that introduced what he actually was,HO ON,aka "the being."In other words,in no way,shape,or form was Jesus quoting Exodus.Jesus didn't say "Ego eimi ho on."Or even "ho on",which would have been the title trinitarians are looking for here.Yahweh saying *I am ho on* would be like me saying I am a woman.If someone later said "I am" would you think they were quoting me with such a common phrase that people use many times a day as an introduction to what they are?Of course not!Yet that's similar to what trinitarians are doing here in John.It's nonsensical.
Often times in the bible when someone says "I am" when identifying himself,the bible translators will insert "he" right afterward to let you know who the person is saying he is.This is done because our modern English language doesn't function identically to the ancient biblical languages.For example,examine:
John 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things." 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am HE."
To quote Greg Deuble from "They never told me THIS in Church" p.183
"You will notice that in most bibles the word *he* is in italics.This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear.Here Jesus says to the woman--in the context of her question about the Messiah--that he IS the Messiah,the Christ."I who speak to you am he."In the Greek it reads "ego eimi."Jesus simply says I am he,the Messiah.Definitely not "I AM is the one speaking to you!"
So Jesus is often identifying himself as the Messiah,not the Godman,not the second person of a triune Greek substance,not Michael the Archangel,not some OT figure named "Wisdom" or "Word,"but simply the Messiah,the Lamb come to save the world,slain before it was founded,(Rev 13:8)decreed long long ago,foreordained before the world was even made.Now manifest(1 John 1:2) for our salvation and his inheritance and God's glory!
In John 9,the blind man who Jesus heals says "ego eimi!" when people dispute whether he is the one Jesus healed.The translators translate "ego eimi" as "I am the one."..So where's the consistency?I'm perceiving interpretive abuse here,inconsistency and bias to be sure.Basically trinitarian translators have no problem making sense of the Greek language when interpreting it into English except in John 8:58 where they can abuse the passage and try and make it say what it doesn't with capitalization and absurd inference.Absurd because "ho on" isn't even there!And even if it were,Jesus says his words weren't even his own!
In fact let's play a little game I like to call "instances where it is appropriate to render "ego eimi"(aka I am) as something else!"Observe the following:
Luke 19:22:Thou knewest that I was (ego eimi!) an austere man(KJV)
2 Corinthains 12:11:I am (ego eimi) become a fool in glorifying,ye have compelled me(other translations use I have for ego eimi,which sounds better,as it would have in John 8:58 as well)
John 14:9:Have I been (ego eimi!) so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me?(KJV)
Yet the NWT renders ego eimi as "I have been" in John 8:58 and are called blasphemers for doing so.Interesting.Hypocritical of Christians to call that an abomination when their own translations take such liberty elsewhere where it wouldn't threaten any tradition.
There are many more examples of this..just making a point.
Keep in mind when reading the bible that capitalization is added by men.It's not in the original Greek.So don't be misled by capitalization of words like "spirit","word" or "I am."
Why would they want to kill him if he wasn't claiming deity?To quote Patrick Navas from his book "Divine Truth or human Tradition?" very loosely,as some of it is put in my own words.:
"The Jewish reaction came at the end or climax of an increasing sense of hostility toward Jesus BASED ON PREVIOUS exchanges.In verse 21 he told them they'd die in their sin & that their father was the devil,the father of the lie.He also said "you are NOT of God" and they told him he was possessed by a demon!Clearly demonstrating their increasingly aggressive & hostile disposition up to that point..In vs. 55 Jesus called them liars and said "you do not know the father...I know him..If I said I didn't I would be a liar like you but I do know him and I keep HIS word."Also,in Luke 4:14-30 ,the people of the synagogue tried to kill Jesus by throwing him down a mountain for what might have been an even lesser offense.He said he wouldn't perform anymore healing among the synagogue of Nazareth and that he would direct his attention to others.The crowd was enraged and attempted to kill him."
Patrick them goes on to express his belief that this proves Jesus literally preexisted,which I no longer believe,while not being dogmatic about my new belief.But Navas also says:
"He pronounced seniority over Abraham so by standards of Jewish society he has greater authority than Abraham.NO ONE Listening at the time would've picked up on a divine self identification in the mere expression "I am!"
Did Jesus have to literally preexist as a spirit creature as Yah's first creation before he could have preeminence over Abraham?No.For he was the promised Messiah!,slain before the foundation of the world,God's greatest prophecy and plan of salvation,the savior of mankind,the Son of Man in Daniel given a kingdom and the world,king and Lord of all,the fulfillment of all things in whom we consist!And THAT is why he's of higher rank than and of more importance and grander significance than their father Abraham.The Jews knew very well he was identifying himself as the Messiah and with that revelation,on top of his having already condemned and flagrantly insulted them,was the last straw to be sure!
IF the Jews did think Jesus was saying he was older in literal preexistence,imo,it would simply mean they misunderstood him just like they had so many times before.Like they did when they thought he said Abraham saw him and he saw Abraham when all he had actually said was that Abraham had rejoiced to see his day!How did Abraham do this?By meeting a spirit creature named "Word" and "Wisdom" ,or perhaps "Michael" or "Angel of Yah" in the OT?I don't think so.Here's how Abraham rejoiced at the prospect of seeing his day:
Hebrews 11:10:For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
So Abraham,with eyes of faith,saw Jesus's coming day when the New Jerusalem blesses the earth and Jesus rules it.It's not that he literally met a spirit creature that would be reincarnated as his Messiah before this.
He BECAME for us God's word and wisdom by fulfilling God's wise plans and revealing God to the world as God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Now this is supposed to be one of the best trinity "proofs".They can all be refuted.My favorite method is after reading the whole bible,determining what the GREAT MAJORITY of texts suggest or proclaim and THEN taking those that SEEM ambiguous and interpreting those in the light of biblical HARMONY,context,reason and of course,in prayer.
It makes perfect sense to me that God filling Christ full of the wonderful knowledge of the all the plans God had for him from the beginning would compel Christ to say things like:Before Abraham existed,I am he(the one Abraham rejoiced to see the day of,aka the Messiah!)" and "glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was even made..."etc...He's been with God from the beginning to be sure!Can you imagine being filled with the knowledge God had you in his heart and mind from the beginning for the specifics Jesus was decreed for,ie to save the world ,inherit a kingdom,sustain a new creation,as heir,king,and Lord?Talk about inspiring!
Colossians 1:26: the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
So what was Jesus before he was revealed to the saints?A mystery hidden for ages!Not revealed till he was born in the flesh.
1 Cor 2:7:we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
So Jesus was the "secret and hidden wisdom of God decreed before the ages for our glory"...simple enough.
John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
And how did he love him?
1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)
For he was foreknown before [pro] the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
Yah loving Christ this long would be like a mother who didn't have a child yet ,but knowing everything about her child long before he was conceived or born and having that intimacy with the knowledge of him constantly in her heart,mind,and soul.Knowing the gifts she couldn't wait to give the child.The accomplishments and obedience her child would produce.etc.Truly a remarkable and poignant thought in my opinion!Christ was with Yah in heart,mind,and spirit in this way before he even made the world!
Now I will present to you 3 brief summaries of the basics of what Jesus in John 8:58 is really communicating.First,mine from an email I sent to someone who had asked me a question about the text in question:
Jews were inquiring of Jesus this:
53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? Also, the
prophets died. Who do you claim to be?"
Jesus then proceeded to explain to them who he was,God's foreordained decreed
Messiah who Abraham rejoiced just in PROSPECT to have seen his day!I know he's
claiming a foreordination here because he's talking about a FUTURE day Abraham
rejoiced to see as opposed to a meeting of him in a preexistent state of
being.The Jews THEN misunderstood and ASSUMED he meant he'd seen Abraham..And
naturally,they're mistaken because all he said was that Abraham through eyes of
faith had seen him!Then Jesus continues explaining who he is by declaring how he
existed before Abraham even was as the planned Messiah.He was still trying to
answer their questions from before that they'd misunderstood his answers on.They
just weren't getting him.
Now for one from a friend in another email:
One must always remember, that it wasn't only Jesus' statement in
verse 58, that upset his listeners.
Jesus gave a series of rebukes and censures from verse 12 onwards.
Verse 58 was the "last straw".
However, what is the context of Jesus' answer?
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead?
and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
The Pharisees' questions were asking:
Are you greater than our father Abraham? Who do you make yourself out to be?
Jesus never said that Abraham saw him or that he saw Abraham!
By Jesus asserting that Abraham rejoiced to see my (Messianic) day,
Jesus is again, claiming to be the Messiah.
And the Messiah was foreordained by GOD (1 Peter 1.20) long before Abraham.
By implying that he is the Messiah (by saying that "I am he - ego eimi;
cp. John 4.25-26, 8.24),
Jesus is indeed greater than Abraham and all the prophets.
The Pharisees couldn't take anymore!! So they wanted to stone him.
And finally Greg Deuble summarizes things quite nicely and in my opinion competently.He says on page 185 of his book:
"The conclusion is inevitable.Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born,I am he" is the straightforward claim he is the long promised one,the Messiah,the One in question.Jesus is the savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.In each of the other examples cited(with the blind man etc.) ,the translators supply the word "he" to the phrase "I am."Why not be consistent here in John 8:58 as well?The only reason not to is because of traditional bias.What Jesus said is this:"Before Abraham was born,I am he,"meaning,I am the Messiah that Abraham looked forward to.This is a very reasonable statement from one who thinks that God had the Messiah in mind from the beginning."
And we need no inference for that notion,as we have explicit scriptural statements that prove He did.
Paul here more accurately quotes Yahweh and says "I am what I am"..no one would think he's Yahweh for doing so.
The apostles used the Septuagint and in it at Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh says:
14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
So Yahweh says EGO EIMI HO ON.The ego eimi wasn't his title but simply a phrase,namely *I am,* that introduced what he actually was,HO ON,aka "the being."In other words,in no way,shape,or form was Jesus quoting Exodus.Jesus didn't say "Ego eimi ho on."Or even "ho on",which would have been the title trinitarians are looking for here.Yahweh saying *I am ho on* would be like me saying I am a woman.If someone later said "I am" would you think they were quoting me with such a common phrase that people use many times a day as an introduction to what they are?Of course not!Yet that's similar to what trinitarians are doing here in John.It's nonsensical.
Often times in the bible when someone says "I am" when identifying himself,the bible translators will insert "he" right afterward to let you know who the person is saying he is.This is done because our modern English language doesn't function identically to the ancient biblical languages.For example,examine:
John 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things." 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am HE."
To quote Greg Deuble from "They never told me THIS in Church" p.183
"You will notice that in most bibles the word *he* is in italics.This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear.Here Jesus says to the woman--in the context of her question about the Messiah--that he IS the Messiah,the Christ."I who speak to you am he."In the Greek it reads "ego eimi."Jesus simply says I am he,the Messiah.Definitely not "I AM is the one speaking to you!"
So Jesus is often identifying himself as the Messiah,not the Godman,not the second person of a triune Greek substance,not Michael the Archangel,not some OT figure named "Wisdom" or "Word,"but simply the Messiah,the Lamb come to save the world,slain before it was founded,(Rev 13:8)decreed long long ago,foreordained before the world was even made.Now manifest(1 John 1:2) for our salvation and his inheritance and God's glory!
In John 9,the blind man who Jesus heals says "ego eimi!" when people dispute whether he is the one Jesus healed.The translators translate "ego eimi" as "I am the one."..So where's the consistency?I'm perceiving interpretive abuse here,inconsistency and bias to be sure.Basically trinitarian translators have no problem making sense of the Greek language when interpreting it into English except in John 8:58 where they can abuse the passage and try and make it say what it doesn't with capitalization and absurd inference.Absurd because "ho on" isn't even there!And even if it were,Jesus says his words weren't even his own!
In fact let's play a little game I like to call "instances where it is appropriate to render "ego eimi"(aka I am) as something else!"Observe the following:
Luke 19:22:Thou knewest that I was (ego eimi!) an austere man(KJV)
2 Corinthains 12:11:I am (ego eimi) become a fool in glorifying,ye have compelled me(other translations use I have for ego eimi,which sounds better,as it would have in John 8:58 as well)
John 14:9:Have I been (ego eimi!) so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me?(KJV)
Yet the NWT renders ego eimi as "I have been" in John 8:58 and are called blasphemers for doing so.Interesting.Hypocritical of Christians to call that an abomination when their own translations take such liberty elsewhere where it wouldn't threaten any tradition.
There are many more examples of this..just making a point.
Keep in mind when reading the bible that capitalization is added by men.It's not in the original Greek.So don't be misled by capitalization of words like "spirit","word" or "I am."
Why would they want to kill him if he wasn't claiming deity?To quote Patrick Navas from his book "Divine Truth or human Tradition?" very loosely,as some of it is put in my own words.:
"The Jewish reaction came at the end or climax of an increasing sense of hostility toward Jesus BASED ON PREVIOUS exchanges.In verse 21 he told them they'd die in their sin & that their father was the devil,the father of the lie.He also said "you are NOT of God" and they told him he was possessed by a demon!Clearly demonstrating their increasingly aggressive & hostile disposition up to that point..In vs. 55 Jesus called them liars and said "you do not know the father...I know him..If I said I didn't I would be a liar like you but I do know him and I keep HIS word."Also,in Luke 4:14-30 ,the people of the synagogue tried to kill Jesus by throwing him down a mountain for what might have been an even lesser offense.He said he wouldn't perform anymore healing among the synagogue of Nazareth and that he would direct his attention to others.The crowd was enraged and attempted to kill him."
Patrick them goes on to express his belief that this proves Jesus literally preexisted,which I no longer believe,while not being dogmatic about my new belief.But Navas also says:
"He pronounced seniority over Abraham so by standards of Jewish society he has greater authority than Abraham.NO ONE Listening at the time would've picked up on a divine self identification in the mere expression "I am!"
Did Jesus have to literally preexist as a spirit creature as Yah's first creation before he could have preeminence over Abraham?No.For he was the promised Messiah!,slain before the foundation of the world,God's greatest prophecy and plan of salvation,the savior of mankind,the Son of Man in Daniel given a kingdom and the world,king and Lord of all,the fulfillment of all things in whom we consist!And THAT is why he's of higher rank than and of more importance and grander significance than their father Abraham.The Jews knew very well he was identifying himself as the Messiah and with that revelation,on top of his having already condemned and flagrantly insulted them,was the last straw to be sure!
IF the Jews did think Jesus was saying he was older in literal preexistence,imo,it would simply mean they misunderstood him just like they had so many times before.Like they did when they thought he said Abraham saw him and he saw Abraham when all he had actually said was that Abraham had rejoiced to see his day!How did Abraham do this?By meeting a spirit creature named "Word" and "Wisdom" ,or perhaps "Michael" or "Angel of Yah" in the OT?I don't think so.Here's how Abraham rejoiced at the prospect of seeing his day:
Hebrews 11:10:For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
So Abraham,with eyes of faith,saw Jesus's coming day when the New Jerusalem blesses the earth and Jesus rules it.It's not that he literally met a spirit creature that would be reincarnated as his Messiah before this.
He BECAME for us God's word and wisdom by fulfilling God's wise plans and revealing God to the world as God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Now this is supposed to be one of the best trinity "proofs".They can all be refuted.My favorite method is after reading the whole bible,determining what the GREAT MAJORITY of texts suggest or proclaim and THEN taking those that SEEM ambiguous and interpreting those in the light of biblical HARMONY,context,reason and of course,in prayer.
It makes perfect sense to me that God filling Christ full of the wonderful knowledge of the all the plans God had for him from the beginning would compel Christ to say things like:Before Abraham existed,I am he(the one Abraham rejoiced to see the day of,aka the Messiah!)" and "glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was even made..."etc...He's been with God from the beginning to be sure!Can you imagine being filled with the knowledge God had you in his heart and mind from the beginning for the specifics Jesus was decreed for,ie to save the world ,inherit a kingdom,sustain a new creation,as heir,king,and Lord?Talk about inspiring!
Colossians 1:26: the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
So what was Jesus before he was revealed to the saints?A mystery hidden for ages!Not revealed till he was born in the flesh.
1 Cor 2:7:we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
So Jesus was the "secret and hidden wisdom of God decreed before the ages for our glory"...simple enough.
John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
And how did he love him?
1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)
For he was foreknown before [pro] the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
Yah loving Christ this long would be like a mother who didn't have a child yet ,but knowing everything about her child long before he was conceived or born and having that intimacy with the knowledge of him constantly in her heart,mind,and soul.Knowing the gifts she couldn't wait to give the child.The accomplishments and obedience her child would produce.etc.Truly a remarkable and poignant thought in my opinion!Christ was with Yah in heart,mind,and spirit in this way before he even made the world!
Now I will present to you 3 brief summaries of the basics of what Jesus in John 8:58 is really communicating.First,mine from an email I sent to someone who had asked me a question about the text in question:
Jews were inquiring of Jesus this:
53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? Also, the
prophets died. Who do you claim to be?"
Jesus then proceeded to explain to them who he was,God's foreordained decreed
Messiah who Abraham rejoiced just in PROSPECT to have seen his day!I know he's
claiming a foreordination here because he's talking about a FUTURE day Abraham
rejoiced to see as opposed to a meeting of him in a preexistent state of
being.The Jews THEN misunderstood and ASSUMED he meant he'd seen Abraham..And
naturally,they're mistaken because all he said was that Abraham through eyes of
faith had seen him!Then Jesus continues explaining who he is by declaring how he
existed before Abraham even was as the planned Messiah.He was still trying to
answer their questions from before that they'd misunderstood his answers on.They
just weren't getting him.
Now for one from a friend in another email:
One must always remember, that it wasn't only Jesus' statement in
verse 58, that upset his listeners.
Jesus gave a series of rebukes and censures from verse 12 onwards.
Verse 58 was the "last straw".
However, what is the context of Jesus' answer?
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead?
and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
The Pharisees' questions were asking:
Are you greater than our father Abraham? Who do you make yourself out to be?
Jesus never said that Abraham saw him or that he saw Abraham!
By Jesus asserting that Abraham rejoiced to see my (Messianic) day,
Jesus is again, claiming to be the Messiah.
And the Messiah was foreordained by GOD (1 Peter 1.20) long before Abraham.
By implying that he is the Messiah (by saying that "I am he - ego eimi;
cp. John 4.25-26, 8.24),
Jesus is indeed greater than Abraham and all the prophets.
The Pharisees couldn't take anymore!! So they wanted to stone him.
And finally Greg Deuble summarizes things quite nicely and in my opinion competently.He says on page 185 of his book:
"The conclusion is inevitable.Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born,I am he" is the straightforward claim he is the long promised one,the Messiah,the One in question.Jesus is the savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.In each of the other examples cited(with the blind man etc.) ,the translators supply the word "he" to the phrase "I am."Why not be consistent here in John 8:58 as well?The only reason not to is because of traditional bias.What Jesus said is this:"Before Abraham was born,I am he,"meaning,I am the Messiah that Abraham looked forward to.This is a very reasonable statement from one who thinks that God had the Messiah in mind from the beginning."
And we need no inference for that notion,as we have explicit scriptural statements that prove He did.
Saturday, July 31, 2010
Unitarian explanation of Colossians 1:16
Some interesting and reasonable biblically-supported exegetical insight here.To be honest at this point..I am leaning more toward "Socinian" interpretations.I hate labels like that but it's a quick way to make it clear what I'm talking about.For Jehovah's Witnesses,of particular interest should be the discussion here of "firstborn."I still see it as a red flag that those within the "Arian" community disagree amongst themselves on who Jesus is NOW.That being said,I can certainly see why they think Jesus DID preexist as certain texts here and there seem pretty explicit that he did.However,to construct doctrines and beliefs on scattered texts with possible alternative interpretations instead of the plain reading of the bible as a whole I would say is a mistake.No one anywhere ever identified Jesus as an archangel,the angel of Yah,or Godman.It was only ever the Messiah,the Christ,God's Son.I don't think the Jews were expecting a Messiah who had just been an angel or God.By any means.Surely this would have been communicated,as would the trinity have been,in clear and unambiguous terms if an angel was reincarnated as a genuine man.
Friday, July 23, 2010
John 1:1,the Word of God,and "new light" on Jesus
If you haven't already,first read my previous blog post.I have to qualify here again that I am journeying into the Socinian mind and writing as a Socinian(those who don't believe Jesus preexisted)would to see how well their interpretations register with my reasoning.I must say,with John 1:1,very well so far!I hope to explain soon to my Arian friends why I'm seriously questioning my Arian tradition.Hopefully I will be able to articulate why satisfactorily so as to do this topic justice and bring glory to God and Christ always no matter what!May God guide us in our truth seeking to the absolute truth of his word and to the Jesus of the bible.May he have mercy on those of us who can admit we don't know everything,who have questions and crave answers in all earnestness as Christian seekers.God alone knows our deepest thoughts and yearnings and I have faith that as long as we're willing to humbly seek,we will by his spirit find.If there's one thing I have learned as a former Jehovah's Witness though,it is that if we are scared to question our traditions,if we're wrapped up in our doctrines at all costs,there is no way he can help us.We must become like children and surrender to him alone in Christ Jesus.
In further regards to John 1:1:
Often in scripture,the preposition "with" can,as Greg Deuble notes in "They never told me THIS in Church", "describe the relationship between a person and what is in his heart or mind."(p.192)Just a few examples:
2 Kings 3:12:And Jehoshaphat said, “The word of the LORD is with him.”
2 John 2 because of the truth that remains in us, and it will be with us forever
Jeremiah 27:18:If the word of the LORD is with them
Proverbs 11:12:Wisdom is with the humble
So is it any marvel that God's word was WITH him and so identified with him?Just like in these texts truth,God's word and wisdom even could be with US and identified WITH us because they're a poetic and poignant part of us?
This principle can be summed up in Proverbs 23:7:
For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
Yes,as God thinks and wills and purposes,wrapped up in his word which becomes reality if he makes it be so,can be (poetically)described as what he himself is.
2 Peter 3:5:long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
Does this mean that by His Son the heavens and such existed or by God's will and plan and spoken word?
Rev. 4:11:Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.
God's *will*, *word*,*spirit* and *wisdom* ,encompassing his plans and attributes, can be spoken of as separate from him,poetically and understandably.God speaks and it comes to pass via divine strength,will,and wisdom.Does John ch 1say that GOD became flesh OR that his "word" did?Jesus was indeed fully expressive of God's plan,purpose,will,word and wisdom for being the Amen,God's vessel to inhabit by spirit fully,our redeemer,and the fulfillment of all things PURPOSED from the "beginning."Because of God's foreknowledge of our downfall and man's sure eventuality in abusing the gift of free will,hence needing a redeemer.
Taken from "Restoring the Biblical Christ.. Is Jesus God?" by Jason Kerrigan(who in this book does communicate his belief that Christ preexisted)..here Kerrigan notes definitions of "word".. p. 7
logos-something SAID(including the thought);by implication a topic(subject of discourse),also reasoning(the mental faculty) or motive;by extension a computation(-Strong's #3056)
rhema-an utterance(individually,collectively,or specifically);by implication a matter or topic(especially of narration,command or dispute)saying,word(-Strong's #4487)
Kerrigan says "Our words are expressions of our thoughts.Likewise,the word of God is the expression of God,and this expression is how God reveals himself."(p.8)
In Ephesians 6:17 the Word of God is identified as the *spirit.*
Kerrigan notes:"(because a word is an expression),the fact that the Spirit is called "The Word of God" shows us that God is somehow expressed via his spirit."(p.10)
And we all know that spirit was expressed in and through Christ more fully than anyone else ever,given him "without measure."(John 3:34)Make no mistake that the spirit of Christ IS the spirit of God meaning that which was GIVEN to him BY God to not only reveal God to the world through his person but also to dispense measures of it to believers due to this authority given him by his own God to do so as mediator and agent.
In 1 Cor. 2:9-12 ,God is revealed by his spirit because it searches the deep things of Him.It is likened to OUR spirits that "know us."Our spirits are within us yet not separate people that exist within our "beings."Similarly,God's spirit is within him and expressive of him and not a separate entity or person either.After all,it is compared to ours but is yet superior,unfathomable,and of course divine beyond measure,hence indescribable and personifiable and extraordinary!It's God's spirit after all!it searches the "deep things of God" and hence reveals those to us,sometimes through others,most especially Christ.I love the way Kerrigan in his book describes the spirit of man which can help us discern the definition of God's as well(pp.11-12)..He says:
"Our spirits search out the inward things that pertain to us so that those things may be brought forth,made intelligible,and applied to various situations in an orderly way."
Skipping ahead some..he says
"By way of analogy,it is like each of us is a big library,and in this library there are books that contain all our memories,books that contain all our emotions,and books that contain all our knowledge.When we learn something new it is our spirit that records those things in one of the library books(so to speak)and then places the book containing that knowledge within the shelves of our soul(our very being or life-force..my own words to define soul here)until that knowledge is needed again.Our spirit is also what goes back to those books and retrieves the information stored in us so as to present that information to our thoughts(or AS our thoughts) in an orderly way.Hence,a man's spirit is not a personality that is distinct from the man,but is rather that man's own personality revealed."
Skipping ahead again..
"It is the spiritual man(the soul) residing within a man's physical body that is the SOURCE of that man's personality(2 Cor. 5:1-8,2 Peter 1:13-14).In a similar way that our spirits search us,so also the Spirit of God searches the things of God and brings those forth.This is how God is expressed via his Spirit-the Spirit searches the things of God and reveals those things outwardly."
Kerrigan points out that God's spirit isn't constrained by the boundaries that limit the spirits of human beings and that we have no spiritual power at all but by the grace of God.
God's expression,or logos(word) is his spirit in some sense in that the spirit reveals it to us.So in my personal opinion,when God's spirit impregnated a virgin womb,the spirit that caused the birth of Christ in the flesh revealed God's expressive *word* through Christ,and that is how and why the word became flesh,how and why God is revealed in Christ.Though Kerrigan believes Christ preexisted and so would not agree with some of my conclusions here,I agree with him when he says "We cannot partake of the Spirit of God apart from Christ.God is expressed in his Spirit,but we cannot perceive nor access that expression unless we look to Christ,through whom that expression is revealed."(p.13)(1 Tim 2:5)..He goes on to say "Christ IS the expression of God unto us(but only in an intermediary sense.)And this is why BOTH Christ AND the Spirit are called "The Word of God."The Spirit is God's word inherently,but Christ is God's word mediated unto us.The Spirit is the principle truth of God revealed,but Jesus is the one THROUGH whom that principle truth is revealed to us."(p. 13)(John 8:40,John 18:37)
Even though the bible says:
Psalm 33:6a (NASB)
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.
Psalms 107:20 (KJV)
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destruction.
It also says:
Isaiah 55:11 (NRSV)
So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; It shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
So the "word" spoken of comes forth from God's MOUTH.Similarly,God's spirit comes forth from his lips or mouth,as it does Jesus's when he BLEW the spirit upon his disciples in John to give them the power to forgive sin.(John 20:21-23)Yes indeed!..God's purposes come to fruition by means of his personifiable force and power,his spirit.From biblicalunitarian's site:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=61
"Broughton and Southgate argue that “Word,” “Spirit” and “Wisdom” are all personified because they are intimately connected to how God has related to the world as its Creator, and that John’s use of logos is consistent with this biblical usage."
The article on the biblicalunitarian site about John 1:1 is taken from their book "One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith."All the rest of this blog,as long as it is in quotations is from the site linked above.Anything not in quotations are my personal thoughts.This is obviously just snippets from the site so visit it for in depth analysis and more from their book.
To quote them:
"We can see how John draws on all the Old Testament teaching…Wisdom is personified in Proverbs 8 as saying that she was in the beginning, that she was with God, and that she was His instrument in creation. The Word of God created the heavens (Ps. 33:6), and so did the Spirit as described in Job 26:13 (KJV) [and Gen. 1:2]. The language clearly is of figure and metaphor, of personification, not actual personality. And John is saying exactly the same of the logos or Word. No Jewish reader brought up on the writings of the prophets would have deduced from John’s introduction that he was alluding to a person who had existed with God from all time. They would see it instead as a continuation of the imagery by which the Word or Wisdom or the Spirit—those manifestations of God which are inseparable from Him—are described as putting God’s intentions into effect."--Broughton, James H. and Southgate, Peter J., The Trinity: True or False? (The Dawn Book Supply, Nottingham, 1995), p. 247."
The Jews being strictly unabashedly monotheistic understood the personifiability of the wisdom,spirit,word,etc. OF God without ever identifying those things as people within the being of God.
Also from the site:
"While in John 1:1 the logos is God’s self expression and His wisdom, plan and power, many times in the New Testament the logos is the message of the coming, the life, the death, the resurrection, the ascension, the exaltation, the lordship and the coming again of Jesus the Messiah. If the logos that was “in the beginning” is understood in these terms, then it becomes clear that God had this very series of events in mind when He created the cosmos. “The Word was God” (John 1:1) in that it is God’s self-revelation, the account that God chose to give of Himself and His will to all nations."
“In the beginning God” in Genesis 1:1. John tells us that “in the beginning” God had wisdom and a plan, and was prepared to start acting that plan out so that the people He created and invested His love in could be rescued from death and live with Him eternally. The crowning piece of the plan of God was the creation of Jesus Christ, who was in a very real sense, “the last word."
I guess in essence this could mean Jesus was the "beginning and the end" of God's plan of salvation and as the "creator" of the NEW heavens and NEW earth in that in him all things will consist and because of him it will come to be and for him God had a perfect kingdom in mind,to gift to a Son he so adores who faithfully served him in love and reverence,foreknown and decreed,slain even!,from the foundation of the world!God also had Christ in mind as redeemer and heir as he originally created,knowing mankind would fall and need his foreknown Son to save us with an imputation of his own superb righteousness.
More from site:
"God’s plan was being expressed in wisdom and action all through the Old Testament. The logos was being expressed as Abraham set off to sacrifice Isaac, as Moses lifted the serpent up on the pole, as Solomon built the Temple, and as Isaiah penned the verses stating that the Servant of God would be pierced for our transgressions. It was expressed in pieces and parts in history, as people acted, and in prophecy, as people spoke. Then one day, probably in 3 BC, the types, foreshadowings and prophecies ceased, and the logos, the plan, purpose, wisdom and power of God, “became flesh” in the man Jesus Christ."
"As E. W. Bullinger notes on John 1:1 in the Companion Bible: “As the spoken word reveals the invisible thought, so the Living Word reveals the invisible God.” (Bullinger, op. cit., Companion, p. 1512)
“Before Jesus’ conception in the womb of Mary, the logos was to Jesus what promise is to fulfillment. When “the logos became flesh,” the promise was fulfilled in the form of a person. "
"C. H. Dodd is another scholar who sees in the logos the meeting of the divine, God’s communication of Himself, with the human, the man in whom God most clearly revealed Himself. The logos is the “final concentration of the whole creative and revealing thought of God” in “an individual who is what humanity was designed to be in the divine purpose.” (C. H. Dodd, The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, (Cambridge, 1953), p. 282.) In other words, Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, is what Man was intended to be, the perfect representative of God."
“If Jesus is not identical to the logos, what exactly is the relationship between them? The relationship of Jesus to the logos of God can best be described as intimate and prophetic, two important characteristics of the entire Gospel of John. Jesus was conceived in the mind of God “in the beginning,” and was in view when God created the present heavens and earth. God knew His plan, and throughout the Old Testament communicated it through a body of prophetic language that pointed toward Christ’s coming. Jesus refers to this plan in his prayer on the eve of his death:
John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Peter communicates this same truth in his first epistle:
1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)
For he was foreknown before [pro] the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
John is not propounding a mystical process by which a pre-existent spirit being became clothed in flesh. Rather, it is asserting that the prophetic plan and purpose of God has become a true man, “in the flesh,” and that as the “purpose of the ages,” even creation itself is organized around him. “
"The logos was not “made flesh” through a metaphysical or mystical process by which a pre-existent spirit being transmigrated his eternal consciousness into a temporal human zygote at the moment of conception. The logos was “made flesh” through a process that began when God fulfilled His Word to His people by creating the long awaited Seed of Promise, the seed of the woman, the one who would be just like his Dad, the “chip off the old Rock.”
Ephesians 3:9
And to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
So Christ wasn't existing in heaven for all time but was rather hidden in God to appear at the decreed time as the Last Adam through human genealogy for the salvation and glorification of faithful mankind and his own inimitable inherited exaltation to a remarkable glory,2nd only to his father's!
Did John write the gospel to let us know Jesus preexisted or was the 2nd person of a triune philosophical homoousios (substance)?Apparently not.
John 20:31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
And is calling him the son of God a declaration he's also True God?(John 17:3) Apparently not!
Luke 1:35:And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."
Yes,he's the Son of God because he was conceived in a virgin womb supernaturally and miraculously by God's spirit,of course making him God's unique Son.Who else has ever been?Who else is the fulfillment of all things?Who else is the beginning and end of all God's plans by his admirable faithfulness to his own God which leads to salvation for all who exercise faith in him?Praise the Lord Messiah!For everything he is and for everything he's done to the glory of God and the exaltation of righteous mankind!
In further regards to John 1:1:
Often in scripture,the preposition "with" can,as Greg Deuble notes in "They never told me THIS in Church", "describe the relationship between a person and what is in his heart or mind."(p.192)Just a few examples:
2 Kings 3:12:And Jehoshaphat said, “The word of the LORD is with him.”
2 John 2 because of the truth that remains in us, and it will be with us forever
Jeremiah 27:18:If the word of the LORD is with them
Proverbs 11:12:Wisdom is with the humble
So is it any marvel that God's word was WITH him and so identified with him?Just like in these texts truth,God's word and wisdom even could be with US and identified WITH us because they're a poetic and poignant part of us?
This principle can be summed up in Proverbs 23:7:
For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
Yes,as God thinks and wills and purposes,wrapped up in his word which becomes reality if he makes it be so,can be (poetically)described as what he himself is.
2 Peter 3:5:long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
Does this mean that by His Son the heavens and such existed or by God's will and plan and spoken word?
Rev. 4:11:Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.
God's *will*, *word*,*spirit* and *wisdom* ,encompassing his plans and attributes, can be spoken of as separate from him,poetically and understandably.God speaks and it comes to pass via divine strength,will,and wisdom.Does John ch 1say that GOD became flesh OR that his "word" did?Jesus was indeed fully expressive of God's plan,purpose,will,word and wisdom for being the Amen,God's vessel to inhabit by spirit fully,our redeemer,and the fulfillment of all things PURPOSED from the "beginning."Because of God's foreknowledge of our downfall and man's sure eventuality in abusing the gift of free will,hence needing a redeemer.
Taken from "Restoring the Biblical Christ.. Is Jesus God?" by Jason Kerrigan(who in this book does communicate his belief that Christ preexisted)..here Kerrigan notes definitions of "word".. p. 7
logos-something SAID(including the thought);by implication a topic(subject of discourse),also reasoning(the mental faculty) or motive;by extension a computation(-Strong's #3056)
rhema-an utterance(individually,collectively,or specifically);by implication a matter or topic(especially of narration,command or dispute)saying,word(-Strong's #4487)
Kerrigan says "Our words are expressions of our thoughts.Likewise,the word of God is the expression of God,and this expression is how God reveals himself."(p.8)
In Ephesians 6:17 the Word of God is identified as the *spirit.*
Kerrigan notes:"(because a word is an expression),the fact that the Spirit is called "The Word of God" shows us that God is somehow expressed via his spirit."(p.10)
And we all know that spirit was expressed in and through Christ more fully than anyone else ever,given him "without measure."(John 3:34)Make no mistake that the spirit of Christ IS the spirit of God meaning that which was GIVEN to him BY God to not only reveal God to the world through his person but also to dispense measures of it to believers due to this authority given him by his own God to do so as mediator and agent.
In 1 Cor. 2:9-12 ,God is revealed by his spirit because it searches the deep things of Him.It is likened to OUR spirits that "know us."Our spirits are within us yet not separate people that exist within our "beings."Similarly,God's spirit is within him and expressive of him and not a separate entity or person either.After all,it is compared to ours but is yet superior,unfathomable,and of course divine beyond measure,hence indescribable and personifiable and extraordinary!It's God's spirit after all!it searches the "deep things of God" and hence reveals those to us,sometimes through others,most especially Christ.I love the way Kerrigan in his book describes the spirit of man which can help us discern the definition of God's as well(pp.11-12)..He says:
"Our spirits search out the inward things that pertain to us so that those things may be brought forth,made intelligible,and applied to various situations in an orderly way."
Skipping ahead some..he says
"By way of analogy,it is like each of us is a big library,and in this library there are books that contain all our memories,books that contain all our emotions,and books that contain all our knowledge.When we learn something new it is our spirit that records those things in one of the library books(so to speak)and then places the book containing that knowledge within the shelves of our soul(our very being or life-force..my own words to define soul here)until that knowledge is needed again.Our spirit is also what goes back to those books and retrieves the information stored in us so as to present that information to our thoughts(or AS our thoughts) in an orderly way.Hence,a man's spirit is not a personality that is distinct from the man,but is rather that man's own personality revealed."
Skipping ahead again..
"It is the spiritual man(the soul) residing within a man's physical body that is the SOURCE of that man's personality(2 Cor. 5:1-8,2 Peter 1:13-14).In a similar way that our spirits search us,so also the Spirit of God searches the things of God and brings those forth.This is how God is expressed via his Spirit-the Spirit searches the things of God and reveals those things outwardly."
Kerrigan points out that God's spirit isn't constrained by the boundaries that limit the spirits of human beings and that we have no spiritual power at all but by the grace of God.
God's expression,or logos(word) is his spirit in some sense in that the spirit reveals it to us.So in my personal opinion,when God's spirit impregnated a virgin womb,the spirit that caused the birth of Christ in the flesh revealed God's expressive *word* through Christ,and that is how and why the word became flesh,how and why God is revealed in Christ.Though Kerrigan believes Christ preexisted and so would not agree with some of my conclusions here,I agree with him when he says "We cannot partake of the Spirit of God apart from Christ.God is expressed in his Spirit,but we cannot perceive nor access that expression unless we look to Christ,through whom that expression is revealed."(p.13)(1 Tim 2:5)..He goes on to say "Christ IS the expression of God unto us(but only in an intermediary sense.)And this is why BOTH Christ AND the Spirit are called "The Word of God."The Spirit is God's word inherently,but Christ is God's word mediated unto us.The Spirit is the principle truth of God revealed,but Jesus is the one THROUGH whom that principle truth is revealed to us."(p. 13)(John 8:40,John 18:37)
Even though the bible says:
Psalm 33:6a (NASB)
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.
Psalms 107:20 (KJV)
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destruction.
It also says:
Isaiah 55:11 (NRSV)
So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; It shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
So the "word" spoken of comes forth from God's MOUTH.Similarly,God's spirit comes forth from his lips or mouth,as it does Jesus's when he BLEW the spirit upon his disciples in John to give them the power to forgive sin.(John 20:21-23)Yes indeed!..God's purposes come to fruition by means of his personifiable force and power,his spirit.From biblicalunitarian's site:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=61
"Broughton and Southgate argue that “Word,” “Spirit” and “Wisdom” are all personified because they are intimately connected to how God has related to the world as its Creator, and that John’s use of logos is consistent with this biblical usage."
The article on the biblicalunitarian site about John 1:1 is taken from their book "One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith."All the rest of this blog,as long as it is in quotations is from the site linked above.Anything not in quotations are my personal thoughts.This is obviously just snippets from the site so visit it for in depth analysis and more from their book.
To quote them:
"We can see how John draws on all the Old Testament teaching…Wisdom is personified in Proverbs 8 as saying that she was in the beginning, that she was with God, and that she was His instrument in creation. The Word of God created the heavens (Ps. 33:6), and so did the Spirit as described in Job 26:13 (KJV) [and Gen. 1:2]. The language clearly is of figure and metaphor, of personification, not actual personality. And John is saying exactly the same of the logos or Word. No Jewish reader brought up on the writings of the prophets would have deduced from John’s introduction that he was alluding to a person who had existed with God from all time. They would see it instead as a continuation of the imagery by which the Word or Wisdom or the Spirit—those manifestations of God which are inseparable from Him—are described as putting God’s intentions into effect."--Broughton, James H. and Southgate, Peter J., The Trinity: True or False? (The Dawn Book Supply, Nottingham, 1995), p. 247."
The Jews being strictly unabashedly monotheistic understood the personifiability of the wisdom,spirit,word,etc. OF God without ever identifying those things as people within the being of God.
Also from the site:
"While in John 1:1 the logos is God’s self expression and His wisdom, plan and power, many times in the New Testament the logos is the message of the coming, the life, the death, the resurrection, the ascension, the exaltation, the lordship and the coming again of Jesus the Messiah. If the logos that was “in the beginning” is understood in these terms, then it becomes clear that God had this very series of events in mind when He created the cosmos. “The Word was God” (John 1:1) in that it is God’s self-revelation, the account that God chose to give of Himself and His will to all nations."
“In the beginning God” in Genesis 1:1. John tells us that “in the beginning” God had wisdom and a plan, and was prepared to start acting that plan out so that the people He created and invested His love in could be rescued from death and live with Him eternally. The crowning piece of the plan of God was the creation of Jesus Christ, who was in a very real sense, “the last word."
I guess in essence this could mean Jesus was the "beginning and the end" of God's plan of salvation and as the "creator" of the NEW heavens and NEW earth in that in him all things will consist and because of him it will come to be and for him God had a perfect kingdom in mind,to gift to a Son he so adores who faithfully served him in love and reverence,foreknown and decreed,slain even!,from the foundation of the world!God also had Christ in mind as redeemer and heir as he originally created,knowing mankind would fall and need his foreknown Son to save us with an imputation of his own superb righteousness.
More from site:
"God’s plan was being expressed in wisdom and action all through the Old Testament. The logos was being expressed as Abraham set off to sacrifice Isaac, as Moses lifted the serpent up on the pole, as Solomon built the Temple, and as Isaiah penned the verses stating that the Servant of God would be pierced for our transgressions. It was expressed in pieces and parts in history, as people acted, and in prophecy, as people spoke. Then one day, probably in 3 BC, the types, foreshadowings and prophecies ceased, and the logos, the plan, purpose, wisdom and power of God, “became flesh” in the man Jesus Christ."
"As E. W. Bullinger notes on John 1:1 in the Companion Bible: “As the spoken word reveals the invisible thought, so the Living Word reveals the invisible God.” (Bullinger, op. cit., Companion, p. 1512)
“Before Jesus’ conception in the womb of Mary, the logos was to Jesus what promise is to fulfillment. When “the logos became flesh,” the promise was fulfilled in the form of a person. "
"C. H. Dodd is another scholar who sees in the logos the meeting of the divine, God’s communication of Himself, with the human, the man in whom God most clearly revealed Himself. The logos is the “final concentration of the whole creative and revealing thought of God” in “an individual who is what humanity was designed to be in the divine purpose.” (C. H. Dodd, The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, (Cambridge, 1953), p. 282.) In other words, Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, is what Man was intended to be, the perfect representative of God."
“If Jesus is not identical to the logos, what exactly is the relationship between them? The relationship of Jesus to the logos of God can best be described as intimate and prophetic, two important characteristics of the entire Gospel of John. Jesus was conceived in the mind of God “in the beginning,” and was in view when God created the present heavens and earth. God knew His plan, and throughout the Old Testament communicated it through a body of prophetic language that pointed toward Christ’s coming. Jesus refers to this plan in his prayer on the eve of his death:
John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Peter communicates this same truth in his first epistle:
1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)
For he was foreknown before [pro] the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
John is not propounding a mystical process by which a pre-existent spirit being became clothed in flesh. Rather, it is asserting that the prophetic plan and purpose of God has become a true man, “in the flesh,” and that as the “purpose of the ages,” even creation itself is organized around him. “
"The logos was not “made flesh” through a metaphysical or mystical process by which a pre-existent spirit being transmigrated his eternal consciousness into a temporal human zygote at the moment of conception. The logos was “made flesh” through a process that began when God fulfilled His Word to His people by creating the long awaited Seed of Promise, the seed of the woman, the one who would be just like his Dad, the “chip off the old Rock.”
Ephesians 3:9
And to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
So Christ wasn't existing in heaven for all time but was rather hidden in God to appear at the decreed time as the Last Adam through human genealogy for the salvation and glorification of faithful mankind and his own inimitable inherited exaltation to a remarkable glory,2nd only to his father's!
Did John write the gospel to let us know Jesus preexisted or was the 2nd person of a triune philosophical homoousios (substance)?Apparently not.
John 20:31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
And is calling him the son of God a declaration he's also True God?(John 17:3) Apparently not!
Luke 1:35:And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."
Yes,he's the Son of God because he was conceived in a virgin womb supernaturally and miraculously by God's spirit,of course making him God's unique Son.Who else has ever been?Who else is the fulfillment of all things?Who else is the beginning and end of all God's plans by his admirable faithfulness to his own God which leads to salvation for all who exercise faith in him?Praise the Lord Messiah!For everything he is and for everything he's done to the glory of God and the exaltation of righteous mankind!
Wednesday, July 21, 2010
John 1:1 and my "crisis of conscience" about my Arian view of Jesus Christ
I am going to readily articulate a blog disclaimer here..I am in no way certain at this point of either an Arian OR a Socinian view of Jesus Christ.I could argue convincingly,while actually BEING convinced,either view.I see both sides so clearly and hence am in a dilemma.It all started when I began seriously contemplating if Jesus was currently an angel or a man or back and forth or what.In other words,I had a "crisis of conscience" with my tradition,as I recognized for the first time I had a split personalitied Christ like the trinitarians.. I always knew Jesus was UTTERLY perfectly HUMAN,like the first Adam,while he walked this earth,with no further natures on top of his flawless humanity.But because of my question about who Jesus is NOW though, I decided to consider the view of those who don't think he preexisted to find out if there is something I might have missed because previously,I thought their arguments were special pleading with explicit texts.I have since discovered that isn't really the case.Though I still have questions a'many,because of my big mouth and my journey here,I have decided to share my ponderings with whoever stumbles upon this.Any advice,thoughts,or questions would be appreciated.Thanks to all.This is only the very first part of my journey into this and there will be more I will write about John 1:1 and far beyond,so stay tuned and let me know if you've ever seen both sides to an issue so clearly that your head spun in confusion?;)..This blog is written almost as if I'm CERTAIN Christ didn't preexist.That isn't the case but I am writing as a Socinian would here to explore this view and to see if it registers with my reason as I write about and research it.Let me know what you think.Especially if you're a unitarian of any kind.My email is biscuitpouncer@hotmail.com.Would love to hear from any of you on this issue!
The Word of God is NOT *just* Jesus Christ.The reason Jesus is called the Word of God,in my opinion,is for multiple poignant and important reasons:
*His words were not his own,but rather God's,so he relayed God's messages and love to mankind fully and beautifully as God's prophet,agent,image,and representative,who again,said nothing of his own initiative but in all things looked to his own God and father for what to do and say.
*He fulfilled all God's plans and intentions from the beginning,including what was prophecied at Genesis 3:15.Therefore,God's "word",or what would come to pass for the light and life of all mankind,was fulfilled perfectly and fully in Jesus the Christ of Yah,the Son of the Most High God.God's *Word* ,here,would be representative of God's will and plans for a coming savior who would make all God's purposes possible and of comforting absolute surety due to Jesus's faithfulness,obedience,and diligence to his father's *word*,or will.Hence Christ encompasses God's *word* on every level as the Great Amen who ensured God's prophecies by his faithful life,fleeting death,and glorious resurrection.
You'll notice throughout the OT when the word of God is spoken of,it is about what God wills or says by his spirit.I used to read into those texts my personal theology that a preexistent Jesus was probably speaking on God's behalf as his "word" and hence "the word of God" "says."But does that have to be the case?I don't think so anymore.God making everything by his "word" would rather now seem to suggest to me that what God *spoke* came to be.It came to be by his will or speech,(his word) and then by his spirit which works in accord with his will and word and essentially becomes an unstoppable divine force and presence that God uses to create,inhabit chosen servants,and anything else at all that God wills (He may accomplish by his spirit either directly or through others.)This is very much like God's "Wisdom" being personified so vibrantly and often.God's "wisdom" also doesn't always have to be Christ,who once again demonstrated God's wisdom more fully than any other in that God inhabited Christ reconciling a world unto Himself and by living such an admirable and wise life,thereby being so termed "The Wisdom of God."Also,he reveals God's wisdom in his father's plans of salvation and redemption by his fulfillment of those as he finished all the work that needed to be done to ensure a restoration of all things unto glory.God's wisdom,however,can encompass more than Christ of course and,like God's *word* and God's *spirit*, is ofttimes personified and spoken of as a separate entity from God himself in that BECAUSE they ARE all God's attributes,their magnificence inspires poetic license.Just like our attributes and our "spirit" would even as mere human beings.We're talking about God here!
All this thinking made me reconsider the "Socinian" (those who do not believe Christ preexisted) view of John 1:1.Greg Deuble's book "They never told me THIS in Church" is a great one.Let me quote what he says concerning John 1:1 on page 187:
"John DID NOT write "In the beginning was the Son and the Son was with God and the Son was God."(Some translations make this bold claim even though it is totally unwarranted from the text.)But our inherited tradition automatically makes our eyes run in that groove.One of the reasons we tend to read into this meaning is the very fact that our translations have a capital "W" for "Word."The capital W subconsciously dictates what we think John means when he speaks of the "Word."
Interesting indeed that most of the English translations prior to the King James of 1611 identifies the "word" in John 1:1 and beyond as an "it" and not a "who,"proclaiming that God made all things by "it" and not by "him."This makes some sense to me given that what God *spoke* by his "word" came to be(created.)These are perfectly acceptable translations that should at the very least be considered by truth seekers.After all,when "logos" is use in scripture,it isn't generally called a "him" but rather is clearly an "it."As Greg also points out in his book on page 189,the Gnostics were promoting that Jesus was a preexistent heavenly being,a mixture of flesh and spirit,rather than JUST a human.Therefore,John here could have very well been refuting their notions by emphasizing that the "Word" was poetically wrapped up with who GOD was and was not a SEPARATE person by his side,but rather his will and plan and purpose fulfilled by his spirit,that also BECOMES "flesh" in verse 14 when Jesus is born of a virgin womb by the spirit of God.What God has willed,wrapped up in what he purposes and speaks,becomes the Last Adam fulfilling all things,from the fatal blow to Satan to the positive promise of an eternal heavenly kingdom with Messiah as Lord and king by the will and purpose of God.More evidence that John was here refuting the Gnostics and not saying Jesus was an eternal deity always with God in heaven:
1 John 4:2 every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the FLESH originates with God
Could John here have been repudiating as antichrist ANY confession that goes beyond Christ having come as the Last Adam,a fully flesh man born by the power of God's spirit through a virgin womb?In other words,any confession that Christ was ALSO "fully something else" or ANYTHING else on top of or instead of flesh?Worth at least a consideration!
Examine also:
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
To quote Deuble(p. 189):"Four times John says that which was from the beginning was a "what"!Here the relative pronouns are neuter and not masculine.And to avoid all confusion as to his meaning he even says it was the "word of life" which was in the beginning with God."
So was the "word of life" which correlates with the "word" of John 1:1 Jesus Christ in a preexistent state OR was it God's spoken will and purpose,plan and word,that BECAME Jesus in the flesh through a human genealogy?With discernment,I would say the latter.Discerning here that John identified it as a "what" and not a "who" or a "him" and also that the bible speaks of Christ as having been concealed within God from the beginning and not revealed till he came in the flesh.God purposed his birth for the redemption and salvation of mankind and so it came to be.What God *spoke" by his *word of life* was fulfilled in the Christ.Amen to that!Hebrews 1:2 says in the LAST days he spoke to us through his Son,so logic would dictate not before.
Colossians 1:25:I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
The *word of God* here fully known was a *mystery hidden for ages*.Was this *mystery* a preexistent Christ waiting to reveal himself in the flesh OR God's purpose to bring about a savior that THEN later came to exist and so was able to redeem us according to God's wisdom,words,plans,and purpose?
1 Corinthians 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
So here in Corinthians Paul says the *wisdom*(which also became Christ in the flesh for our redemption!) was DECREED.Implying it wasn't "always existing" but rather "would come to pass."Meaning it was always God's plan and purpose for Jesus to fulfill all things for his glory,for the Lord's glory,and for our eventual glory as the free and imperishable sons of God,in the pattern of his firstborn and chief and unique one who was our forerunner and redeemer,the one who guaranteed God's plans by his inspiring and heartfelt obedience and gifted exaltation.
1 Corinthians 1:30: And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
This text says Jesus BECAME to us wisdom from God and doesn't in any way communicate Jesus was ALWAYS
alive to be wisdom from God.This makes sense because he was DECREED,as God made evident in what he said in Genesis 3:15,the first Messianic prophecy.
To quote Karen Armstrong,who Greg quotes in his book(from A History of God:From Abraham to the present:the 4000 year quest for God,p.106)"The "memra"(word) performs the same function as other technical terms like "glory,""Holy spirit",and "Shekinah" which emphasized the distinction between God's presence in the world and the incomprehensible reality of God Himself.Like the divine Wisdom,the "Word" symbolized God's original plan for creation.When Paul and John speak about Jesus as though he had some kind of preexistent life,they were not suggesting he was a second divine "person" in the later trinitarian sense.They were indicating that Jesus transcended temporal and individual modes of existence.Because the "power and "wisdom" he REPRESENTED(emphasis mine) were activities that derived from God,he had in some way expressed "what was there from the beginning."These ideas were comprehensible in a strictly Jewish context,though later Christians with a Greek background would interpret them differently."
So the "word of life" that was in the beginning with God didn't become manifest till the latter times when Christ fulfilled it and became flesh to dwell with and die for us.My theory is that God foreknew how man would abuse his free will and how man could never learn exactly how disobedience to him would be to humankind's utmost detriment without actually experiencing the inevitable consequences of such ignorant rebellion! He in his wisdom planned for us to suffer now a world not theocratically divinely ruled in justice so that we MAY learn and appreciate his kingdom when it DOES come.Never will we have an excuse to willfully disobey again.Never will we wonder what a world would be like without God in ultimate control,but rather rebellious creatures working outside his will.We know now and God is good to have educated us!How else would we have known?God also knew how easy it would be for man to misuse and abuse the awesome gift of free will and so what has happened,with Adam and Eve doing so and subsequent humanity under their curse via inheritance,was what would NATURALLY occur.Due to God's grace,wisdom,and mercy,we can be redeemed from the curse but must NOW LEARN that to live in a peaceful God-ruled kingdom requires our willful obedience to the one who clearly knows what is best for us because he created us and knows all things.To willfully,after having learned all we know now with the world's downfall because God allows men and fallen angels to have temporary control of world affairs,disobey and rebel against our loving and all knowing life giver would be inexcusable,ignorant,and death dealing.How could we live in his upcoming perfect, peaceful, blissful,& flawless kingdom if we don't love or obey him?Hence some HAVE to be destroyed but only those who don't free-willfully love and obey God.My purpose in mentioning these things is to tie in to the reader how, because of God's foreknowledge of all this, that he purposed & planned,via his spirit,will,wisdom and word to bring about a means of redemption which became Christ in the flesh for ultimate salvation.God has scales of perfect justice so if one perfect man(God's first human son) could bring about death for every man by one act of disobedience then another perfect man(The Last Adam,the Son of the living God) could bring about the salvation of every man of faith by his own obedience.It's a beautiful thing indeed!The redeeming blood of the perfect and holy Lamb of God accomplishes for us what God's will purposed.God's "word of life" ,that spoken of in John 1 and 1 John 1 was God's divine wisdom,plan and purpose(and hence was poetically described in John 1:1 as being divine or wrapped up with God Himself) was fulfilled when Christ became flesh.(John 1:14)
Many commentators recognize that John ch. 1 is in a poetic style as opposed to a literary one.To quote Deuble:"(Early Church father)Origen's commentary on John states:"logos-only in the sense of the utterance of the father which came to expression in a Son when Jesus was conceived."Similarly Tertullian:"It is the simple use of our people to say (of John 1) that the word of REVELATION(emphasis mine) was with God."(p. 191 in Deuble's book from Ad Praxeus 5)
But was God's revelation of Christ a revelation of Christ as the second person of his being or a preexistent archangel OR as the one who via his spirit and a virgin womb came to be flesh to dwell among us as savior of the world in latter times(who wasn't ever born before he was born as a perfect man)?
From biblicalunitarian.com where they have generous excerpts from their book "One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith"
The site says"Logos is the term that God uses to represent His purpose for this new creation, which was eventually realized in the person of Jesus."It also quotes from Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting from their book "The Doctrine of The Trinity: Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound":
"What was it that became flesh in John 1:14? Was it a pre-existing person? Or was it the self-expressive activity of God, the Father, His eternal plan? A plan may take flesh, for example, when the design in the architect’s mind finally takes shape as a house. What pre-existed the visible bricks and mortar was the intention in the mind of the architect. Thus, it is quite in order to read John 1:1-3a: “In the beginning was the creative purpose of God. It was with God and was fully expressive of God [just as wisdom was with God before creation]. All things came into being through it.” This rendering suits the Old Testament use of “word” admirably: “So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”(Isaiah 55:11)"
"The true background to John’s thought and language is found not in Greek philosophy but in Hebrew revelation. The “Word of God” in the Old Testament denotes God in action, especially in creation, revelation and deliverance."scholar F.F.Bruce, op. cit., John, p. 29.
There will be more to come.
The Word of God is NOT *just* Jesus Christ.The reason Jesus is called the Word of God,in my opinion,is for multiple poignant and important reasons:
*His words were not his own,but rather God's,so he relayed God's messages and love to mankind fully and beautifully as God's prophet,agent,image,and representative,who again,said nothing of his own initiative but in all things looked to his own God and father for what to do and say.
*He fulfilled all God's plans and intentions from the beginning,including what was prophecied at Genesis 3:15.Therefore,God's "word",or what would come to pass for the light and life of all mankind,was fulfilled perfectly and fully in Jesus the Christ of Yah,the Son of the Most High God.God's *Word* ,here,would be representative of God's will and plans for a coming savior who would make all God's purposes possible and of comforting absolute surety due to Jesus's faithfulness,obedience,and diligence to his father's *word*,or will.Hence Christ encompasses God's *word* on every level as the Great Amen who ensured God's prophecies by his faithful life,fleeting death,and glorious resurrection.
You'll notice throughout the OT when the word of God is spoken of,it is about what God wills or says by his spirit.I used to read into those texts my personal theology that a preexistent Jesus was probably speaking on God's behalf as his "word" and hence "the word of God" "says."But does that have to be the case?I don't think so anymore.God making everything by his "word" would rather now seem to suggest to me that what God *spoke* came to be.It came to be by his will or speech,(his word) and then by his spirit which works in accord with his will and word and essentially becomes an unstoppable divine force and presence that God uses to create,inhabit chosen servants,and anything else at all that God wills (He may accomplish by his spirit either directly or through others.)This is very much like God's "Wisdom" being personified so vibrantly and often.God's "wisdom" also doesn't always have to be Christ,who once again demonstrated God's wisdom more fully than any other in that God inhabited Christ reconciling a world unto Himself and by living such an admirable and wise life,thereby being so termed "The Wisdom of God."Also,he reveals God's wisdom in his father's plans of salvation and redemption by his fulfillment of those as he finished all the work that needed to be done to ensure a restoration of all things unto glory.God's wisdom,however,can encompass more than Christ of course and,like God's *word* and God's *spirit*, is ofttimes personified and spoken of as a separate entity from God himself in that BECAUSE they ARE all God's attributes,their magnificence inspires poetic license.Just like our attributes and our "spirit" would even as mere human beings.We're talking about God here!
All this thinking made me reconsider the "Socinian" (those who do not believe Christ preexisted) view of John 1:1.Greg Deuble's book "They never told me THIS in Church" is a great one.Let me quote what he says concerning John 1:1 on page 187:
"John DID NOT write "In the beginning was the Son and the Son was with God and the Son was God."(Some translations make this bold claim even though it is totally unwarranted from the text.)But our inherited tradition automatically makes our eyes run in that groove.One of the reasons we tend to read into this meaning is the very fact that our translations have a capital "W" for "Word."The capital W subconsciously dictates what we think John means when he speaks of the "Word."
Interesting indeed that most of the English translations prior to the King James of 1611 identifies the "word" in John 1:1 and beyond as an "it" and not a "who,"proclaiming that God made all things by "it" and not by "him."This makes some sense to me given that what God *spoke* by his "word" came to be(created.)These are perfectly acceptable translations that should at the very least be considered by truth seekers.After all,when "logos" is use in scripture,it isn't generally called a "him" but rather is clearly an "it."As Greg also points out in his book on page 189,the Gnostics were promoting that Jesus was a preexistent heavenly being,a mixture of flesh and spirit,rather than JUST a human.Therefore,John here could have very well been refuting their notions by emphasizing that the "Word" was poetically wrapped up with who GOD was and was not a SEPARATE person by his side,but rather his will and plan and purpose fulfilled by his spirit,that also BECOMES "flesh" in verse 14 when Jesus is born of a virgin womb by the spirit of God.What God has willed,wrapped up in what he purposes and speaks,becomes the Last Adam fulfilling all things,from the fatal blow to Satan to the positive promise of an eternal heavenly kingdom with Messiah as Lord and king by the will and purpose of God.More evidence that John was here refuting the Gnostics and not saying Jesus was an eternal deity always with God in heaven:
1 John 4:2 every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the FLESH originates with God
Could John here have been repudiating as antichrist ANY confession that goes beyond Christ having come as the Last Adam,a fully flesh man born by the power of God's spirit through a virgin womb?In other words,any confession that Christ was ALSO "fully something else" or ANYTHING else on top of or instead of flesh?Worth at least a consideration!
Examine also:
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
To quote Deuble(p. 189):"Four times John says that which was from the beginning was a "what"!Here the relative pronouns are neuter and not masculine.And to avoid all confusion as to his meaning he even says it was the "word of life" which was in the beginning with God."
So was the "word of life" which correlates with the "word" of John 1:1 Jesus Christ in a preexistent state OR was it God's spoken will and purpose,plan and word,that BECAME Jesus in the flesh through a human genealogy?With discernment,I would say the latter.Discerning here that John identified it as a "what" and not a "who" or a "him" and also that the bible speaks of Christ as having been concealed within God from the beginning and not revealed till he came in the flesh.God purposed his birth for the redemption and salvation of mankind and so it came to be.What God *spoke" by his *word of life* was fulfilled in the Christ.Amen to that!Hebrews 1:2 says in the LAST days he spoke to us through his Son,so logic would dictate not before.
Colossians 1:25:I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
The *word of God* here fully known was a *mystery hidden for ages*.Was this *mystery* a preexistent Christ waiting to reveal himself in the flesh OR God's purpose to bring about a savior that THEN later came to exist and so was able to redeem us according to God's wisdom,words,plans,and purpose?
1 Corinthians 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
So here in Corinthians Paul says the *wisdom*(which also became Christ in the flesh for our redemption!) was DECREED.Implying it wasn't "always existing" but rather "would come to pass."Meaning it was always God's plan and purpose for Jesus to fulfill all things for his glory,for the Lord's glory,and for our eventual glory as the free and imperishable sons of God,in the pattern of his firstborn and chief and unique one who was our forerunner and redeemer,the one who guaranteed God's plans by his inspiring and heartfelt obedience and gifted exaltation.
1 Corinthians 1:30: And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
This text says Jesus BECAME to us wisdom from God and doesn't in any way communicate Jesus was ALWAYS
alive to be wisdom from God.This makes sense because he was DECREED,as God made evident in what he said in Genesis 3:15,the first Messianic prophecy.
To quote Karen Armstrong,who Greg quotes in his book(from A History of God:From Abraham to the present:the 4000 year quest for God,p.106)"The "memra"(word) performs the same function as other technical terms like "glory,""Holy spirit",and "Shekinah" which emphasized the distinction between God's presence in the world and the incomprehensible reality of God Himself.Like the divine Wisdom,the "Word" symbolized God's original plan for creation.When Paul and John speak about Jesus as though he had some kind of preexistent life,they were not suggesting he was a second divine "person" in the later trinitarian sense.They were indicating that Jesus transcended temporal and individual modes of existence.Because the "power and "wisdom" he REPRESENTED(emphasis mine) were activities that derived from God,he had in some way expressed "what was there from the beginning."These ideas were comprehensible in a strictly Jewish context,though later Christians with a Greek background would interpret them differently."
So the "word of life" that was in the beginning with God didn't become manifest till the latter times when Christ fulfilled it and became flesh to dwell with and die for us.My theory is that God foreknew how man would abuse his free will and how man could never learn exactly how disobedience to him would be to humankind's utmost detriment without actually experiencing the inevitable consequences of such ignorant rebellion! He in his wisdom planned for us to suffer now a world not theocratically divinely ruled in justice so that we MAY learn and appreciate his kingdom when it DOES come.Never will we have an excuse to willfully disobey again.Never will we wonder what a world would be like without God in ultimate control,but rather rebellious creatures working outside his will.We know now and God is good to have educated us!How else would we have known?God also knew how easy it would be for man to misuse and abuse the awesome gift of free will and so what has happened,with Adam and Eve doing so and subsequent humanity under their curse via inheritance,was what would NATURALLY occur.Due to God's grace,wisdom,and mercy,we can be redeemed from the curse but must NOW LEARN that to live in a peaceful God-ruled kingdom requires our willful obedience to the one who clearly knows what is best for us because he created us and knows all things.To willfully,after having learned all we know now with the world's downfall because God allows men and fallen angels to have temporary control of world affairs,disobey and rebel against our loving and all knowing life giver would be inexcusable,ignorant,and death dealing.How could we live in his upcoming perfect, peaceful, blissful,& flawless kingdom if we don't love or obey him?Hence some HAVE to be destroyed but only those who don't free-willfully love and obey God.My purpose in mentioning these things is to tie in to the reader how, because of God's foreknowledge of all this, that he purposed & planned,via his spirit,will,wisdom and word to bring about a means of redemption which became Christ in the flesh for ultimate salvation.God has scales of perfect justice so if one perfect man(God's first human son) could bring about death for every man by one act of disobedience then another perfect man(The Last Adam,the Son of the living God) could bring about the salvation of every man of faith by his own obedience.It's a beautiful thing indeed!The redeeming blood of the perfect and holy Lamb of God accomplishes for us what God's will purposed.God's "word of life" ,that spoken of in John 1 and 1 John 1 was God's divine wisdom,plan and purpose(and hence was poetically described in John 1:1 as being divine or wrapped up with God Himself) was fulfilled when Christ became flesh.(John 1:14)
Many commentators recognize that John ch. 1 is in a poetic style as opposed to a literary one.To quote Deuble:"(Early Church father)Origen's commentary on John states:"logos-only in the sense of the utterance of the father which came to expression in a Son when Jesus was conceived."Similarly Tertullian:"It is the simple use of our people to say (of John 1) that the word of REVELATION(emphasis mine) was with God."(p. 191 in Deuble's book from Ad Praxeus 5)
But was God's revelation of Christ a revelation of Christ as the second person of his being or a preexistent archangel OR as the one who via his spirit and a virgin womb came to be flesh to dwell among us as savior of the world in latter times(who wasn't ever born before he was born as a perfect man)?
From biblicalunitarian.com where they have generous excerpts from their book "One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith"
The site says"Logos is the term that God uses to represent His purpose for this new creation, which was eventually realized in the person of Jesus."It also quotes from Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting from their book "The Doctrine of The Trinity: Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound":
"What was it that became flesh in John 1:14? Was it a pre-existing person? Or was it the self-expressive activity of God, the Father, His eternal plan? A plan may take flesh, for example, when the design in the architect’s mind finally takes shape as a house. What pre-existed the visible bricks and mortar was the intention in the mind of the architect. Thus, it is quite in order to read John 1:1-3a: “In the beginning was the creative purpose of God. It was with God and was fully expressive of God [just as wisdom was with God before creation]. All things came into being through it.” This rendering suits the Old Testament use of “word” admirably: “So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”(Isaiah 55:11)"
"The true background to John’s thought and language is found not in Greek philosophy but in Hebrew revelation. The “Word of God” in the Old Testament denotes God in action, especially in creation, revelation and deliverance."scholar F.F.Bruce, op. cit., John, p. 29.
There will be more to come.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)