I hope no one who might read this takes offense..I just saw it on a webpage and hope it will make someone,anyone realize how nonsensical it is to call God three persons.If it doesn't ,I hope it will at least make you smile or roll your eyes..NO ANGER ALLOWED.
from the following:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html
Creating Your Own Triune God
The following article was written just to make you think a little.
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KJV version of Zechariah 12:10
KJV version of Titus 2:13
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T.A.C.I. contrivance of John 5:44
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T.A.C.I. contrivance of 1 Corinthians 8:6
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"And the men said, 'Let us make God in our own image, in our own likeness, and let Them rule over all the people of earth. And man created God in his own image, in the image of man he created Him; three persons he created Them. And man blessed Them and man said to Them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over every living thing that moves on the earth. And man saw that is was very good and he rested from all his work which he had created."
And from the same site:
When God's Parents Lost Him
Trinitarians insist that whenever we see the word "Jesus" in the Bible, we can be sure the Bible writers were referring to God the Son. They claim this was God walking in the land of Israel. So if Jesus is God .....
Now the parents of God went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. And when God was twelve years old, they went up according to custom and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, God stayed behind in Jerusalem. The parents of God did not know it, but supposing God to be in their company they went a day's journey, and they sought God among their kinsfolk and acquaintances and when they did not find God, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking God. After three days they found God in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions and all who heard God were amazed at the understanding of God and His answers. And when they saw God they were astonished and the mother of God said to him, "God, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." And God said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?" And they did not understand the saying which God spoke to them. And God went down with them and came to Nazareth and God was obedient to them and the mother of God kept all these things in her heart. And God increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man. (Luke 2:40-52).
And I promise no more after this...From the same site:
Holy Spirit Absurdities
If the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity then:
Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. "I have filled him with [the third person of the Trinity] in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge (Exodus 31:1-3).
Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your [third person of the Trinity] from me. (Psalm 51:11).
Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My [third person of the Trinity] upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1).
I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My [third person of the Trinity] on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:29).
It will come about after this that I will pour out My [third person of the Trinity] on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. (Joel 2:28).
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with [the third person of the Trinity] and fire. (Matthew 3:11).
Jesus, full of [the third person of the Trinity], returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness (Luke 4:1).
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give [the third person of the Trinity to those who ask Him? (Luke 11:13).
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives [the third person of the Trinity] withthout measure. (John 3:34).
Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of [the third person of the Trinity], Jesus has poured forth this which you both see and hear. (Acts 2:33).
Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive [the third person of the Trinity] for [the third person of the Trinity] had not yet fallen on any of them... Then they laid their hands on them and they received [the third person of the Trinity]... Now when Simon saw that [the third person of the Trinity] was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money (Acts 8:14-15).
While Peter was still saying this, [the third person of the Trinity] fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of [the third person of the Trinity] had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received [the third person of the Trinity] just as we have?" (Acts 10:43-47).
But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have [the third person of the Trinity] (1 Corinthians 7:40).
Did you receive [the third person of the Trinity] by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in [the third person of the Trinity], are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3).
By this you know [the third person of the Trinity]: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God (1 John 4:2).
I was in [the third person of the Trinity] on the Lord's day (Revelation 1:10).
Wednesday, March 4, 2009
Is eternal Hellfire realistic?
Much of this blog will be a reiteration of the Oh hell!! blog,to just remind those who still believe this "hellfire" nonsense that God is in fact love and what perish REALLY means.The hellfire doctrine is not just nonsense,it's satanic blasphemy against a holy loving merciful sovereign God.I would question the goodness of anyone's heart and the soundness of anyone's mind who thinks this doctrine is plausible.DO NOT BE MISLED.Now if there was scriptural evidence that wasn't symbolic or parable,then I too would have to accept this even though I don't understand it.BUT thankfully,Jehovah has not left those sincerely seeking for truth without biblical refutations of this heinous blasphemy against his character.
Now I am sure those who believe in this are tired of well meaning illustrations about how would we feel if our children sinned then having to watch them burn alive for an eternity OR FOR EVEN A MOMENT.Some would respond and say God's holiness is without bounds and that would demand a gigantic punishment.Well,it does.But not the kind you have in mind.
If you say his holiness is infinitely greater than ours and that would dictate an eternity in fire,I would say to you that his love and mercy is also infinitely greater than ours and that would dictate no such thing.You're arguing something that is NOT biblically stated and from emotionalism and men's ideas.Yah wants sinners to repent..he doesn't want anyone to die but they HAVE to,or we would have chaos with people unwilling to serve him responsibly and wholly.(and holily<--that a word?)A world of peace can't thrive with willful sinners.A world of peace can't thrive with people burning alive forever beneath them either.(And the universal salvation folks,God ,again,is love.He isn't going to force people who want no part with him or who refuse to fully conform to his standards to appreciate the provisions and the eternal life in peace he promises to those who DO love him and desire to obey and please him(like Jesus most perfectly represented).He does not want a world of forced love and obedience.i.e. robots)
Jeremiah 32:35:they built the high places of Ba´al that are in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through [the fire] to Mo´lech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing
So if a few minutes of a child in fire repulses Jehovah,imagine the disdain and horror he would feel watching people burn alive forever.And if you say,oh those are innocent babies,I would say we are ALL children of God.He makes the rain fall and the sun shine on everyone because HIS DESIRE is for EVERYONE to be loving and obedient.He isn't being deceptive when he says "SOMETHING LIKE THIS" would NEVER enter his heart..he means it.In a big way.This literal eternal fire(ACTUALLY symbolic) nonsense serves no purpose.However,killing people would.He doesn't want evil to be ANYWHERE.It would still be somewhere,quite prevalently and noisily,if possibly billions of people were screaming crying and cursing in anguish for an eternity.WAKE UP!
Jesus couldn't even stand to see a leper or demon possessed person tormented temporarily(and I'm sure at least some of these folks were serious sinners)..He healed them all if they only asked.And this is the kind of heavenly king you think will be tolerable of what your preacher tickles your ears with?The eternal worm and "drop of water if only" nonsense being spouted as something LITERAL???This would be an essential tool in the construction of an atheist ...If I KNEW this false doctrine were true,I would certainly have to admit God has some sadist characteristics and I would be forced to examine whether I could serve this kind of God.From my understanding of the marvelous word,Satan is the sadist.And Jehovah doesn't even want to kill anyone,much less watch them burn FOREVER like a madman!I'm not saying I for sure WOULDN'T accept it because I am just dust,clay in the potter's hands,but thankfully Jah has alleviated any doubt to those willing to break it down,recognize symbolism for what it is,and honestly define all these words he uses to describe what REALLY happens to the unrighteous.
Essentially,we need to examine every word that is erroneously translated as "hell" in the bible.Hell isn't in the bible.Sheol,hades(ok these two basically mean grave or tomb) and gehenna are.Gehenna is the only one that should have fire imagery attached,and only symbolically..the Jews at the time would've had a big ol garbage dump(an actual location..google it) where there was fire that annihilated whatever was thrown in it turning it to ashes or zilch in mind when Jesus spoke about gehenna,which has erroneously been translated as hell.Lepers and the like were also cast there away from society.That is what the Jews had in their minds when Jesus was preaching about "hell"...ostracization from God,destruction.Research it yourself.Also important to note:Spirit(pneuma),means "life" or "breath" that Jah can restore in the resurrection..that is what returns to him when you die,the prospect of your being made alive again..Soul can mean body or life..It means life in Matt 10:28..no more hope to ever live again if your body and ALSO your prospect for resurrection is GONE,annihilated,just like the lake of fire,the 2nd FINAL DEATH(means cessation of existence),with no hope of resurrection.The word for forever doesn't even have to mean forever.Just as long as whatever it is describing lasts.Fire,for instance,just till whatever it is burning is destroyed..unquenched until whatever it is burning is destroyed.
To quote Steve Scianni from his essay "everlasting torment examined"
"Ages of ages is an indefinite amount of time finding its duration in connection to the object referred to.
We might also recall the smoke rising forever and ever in Isaiah 34 and Revelation 19:3 as denoting an indefinite but limited amount of time. Also, 2 Kings 5:27, Psalm 83:17, Matthew 21:19, and Philemon 15 are among numerous examples of the word forever limited to the duration of the entity spoken of.
Examine Jonah 2:6: To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in FOREVER.
But you brought my life up from the pit,
O LORD my God."
So Jonah said he was barred in the fish forever..Was he?Obviously,forever often means "for as long as what is spoken of lasts" in the bible.
Also,unquenchable fire didn't preserve forests or anything else in the bible it touched but rather annihilated whatever it did.See(PLEASE)Ezekial 20:47,Amos 5:6,and Matt 3:12 for examples of what unquenchable fire *really* does.
The bible is a marvelous puzzle,a tapestry of harmonious truth.When we see those vivid symbolisms being proclaimed in the NT,we have references in the OT and elsewhere in the NT to help us make sense of them ..for instance(this was in my last hell blog):
Isaiah 34:9,10:It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever
The above is referring to the wicked city of Edom..Go there today and see if you see literal smoke and fire!Nope,it is emphasizing the desolation and the absolute destruction. Same sort of terminology is used in Revelation to erroneously "prove" on a daily basis that a God of absolute love burns his wayward inherently sinful children alive forever.Examine also:
Jude 1:7 (King James Version)
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. explained HERE:
2 Peter 2:6:and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and DESTROYED them by burning them to ASHES, making them an example to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them; (what REALLY happens in fire(ashes)..eternal simply emphasizes the finality of the destruction,which the fire SYMBOLIZES.The length of the finality if it.)
Isaiah 47:14:Behold, they shall be as stubble(what REALLY happens in fire)
And for those who say death is no kinda torment..I ask you..If a holy merciful God was before you right now,or he sent His son to represent Him before you right now...AND you were told of the REMARKABLE kingdom to come where conditions were described to you similar to this:
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. :And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. :And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain;for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.The former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.In his days may the righteous flourish, And abundance of peace till the moon is no more.May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth "(Rev 21:3-5,Micah 4:3,Is 11:6-9,65:17,Ps 72:7,8)
If you heard that majestic description of the coming kingdom ...
Would you wail and cry and weep and "gnash teeth" if he said to you something like this:
"You will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come you are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. you do not listen, because you are not from God. I never knew you! Get away from me, you worker of lawlessness. "(John 8:43-47,Matt 7:21-23)
Or would you shrug your shoulders and say "big deal..goodnight"..If you say "big deal.goodnight.To eternal sleep I go..no biggie."..then your complacency and disregard alone merits your destruction.It's a HUGE deal to be killed instead of afforded an eternity in a paradisaic new world under the Most High of the Universe and his appointed merciful loving king for a literal eternity in unfathomably fantastic benevolent conditions.
One lady on youtube said to simply perish forever would be blissful.My idea of bliss is different(the eternal kingdom of God)..it would be TORMENT for me to miss out on this..to not be able to love and serve my God and his Christ forever!Imagine further,too,the enhancement of the torment if you assumed you were saved or righteous or close to God.If you assumed you knew it all and deserved to inherit these blessings(like the pharisees).Then ..BAM!..not so much !If that wouldn't make you cry and gnash your teeth what would?The fate of the wicked is punishment according to whatever their sins are(their sins aren't infinite!),a just one that leads to the second death where,yes,even hell and death are thrown!Death is said to be "no more" when thrown there which SHOULD appeal to your logic and help you discern that whatever gets thrown in the lake of fire doesn't get infinitely "preserved" but rather infinitely and quite literally destroyed.There is simply no "eternal destroying process" but rather eternal destruction from which there can be no redemption.
Now to go round & round if you'll indulge me for a minute..If what I have presented FROM THE WORD OF GOD is accepted by sincere hearts and utilized minds,then the whole "automatic immortal soul" thing orthodox Christians embrace like a baby does a soft blankey,is NOT TRUE.And you know what else that means!Yep,Jesus REALLY died.For 3 days.So the immortal soul,hellfire and trinity are all refuted in one fell swoop.
"No one ever REALLY dies"...sounds like Satan's lie in the garden of Eden to me!!If a soul never REALLY died,then Satan wasn't REALLY a liar.BREAKING news:If you are alive in heaven or hell,then you haven't perished,in any respect.And you are making God a liar.To which I say "Let God be found true though every man be found a liar!"No wonder we have been instructed repeatedly to "make sure of all things"..thoroughly EXAMINE the scriptures "in an undertone day and night"..Satan's deceptions have gone wild,like the girls in those stupid 10 dollar videos.He's a crafty lil critter,but we can't say we haven't been warned.I would also like to encourage you to study Plato's influence on early church fathers.They thought Plato was inspired by God.Then you'll spy the TRUE origin of the trinity and immortal soul.
The following is from this website:http://www.british-israel.ca/immortalsoul.htm
Plato, again taken from the Phaedo:
"The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible...Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body."
"Statements by such ancient Greek and Roman writers as Polybius, Cicero, Seneca, Strabo---and even Plato himself---have led some modern historians to question whether Plato really personally believed the immortal soul doctrine. They suggest that he may have simply popularized what he knew to be a fiction as a means of keeping the citizenry in line through the fear of mysterious "unseen things" beyond this life."
"Many of the early theologians and scholars of the professing Christian religion---including such men as Origen, Tertullian and Augustine---were closely associated with Platonism.Tertullian (A.D. 155-220), for example, wrote: "For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, the instance, is held by many ... I may use, therefore, the opinion of Plato, when he declares: 'Every soul is immortal'" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III).
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Col. 2:8).
I can only imagine Satan getting some real kicks from this abominable doctrine ,taunting Jehovah,saying something like "I have them believing you are like me..that you would enjoy this kind of ridiculous thing..What do you think about that?"To which Jehovah might say something like: "I am love.My good sheep know this.Nothing like this would ever enter my pure undefiled holy heart.They will see this.They will know."(Proverbs 27:11)
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death
Ezekial 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more(If he's alive and well pokin souls with pitchforks in an eternal literal fire,God is lying here)
Psalm 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish(remember spirit means "breath of life" that can be returned upon resurrection)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction (helps explain what eternal fire REALLY means)
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.(a destroyed soul!..can't redefine destroyed here unless you think it's the literal body burning alive here too...the same meaning of the word destroy for BOTH)
John 3:16 God loved world so much he sent his son so we may not PERISH(which means kaput)
Genesis 3:19-return to dust (which means kaput)
Couple facts about "hell"
1.Job begged to go there
2.Jesus went there.For 3 whole days.
As for the Rich man and Lazarus ..it IS a parable in a SERIES of parables.Hellfire spouters don't like to admit this because for some reason they think the names used HAVE to make it literal(they don't!) and tickling ears with traditional nonsense must be the desire of the day.If it sounds like a parable ,talks like a parable ,in a series of parables,it must be a parable.Which means it isn't literal. That alone should be a good enough reason not to build literal doctrines upon it's clearly parabolic intent.
Now I am sure those who believe in this are tired of well meaning illustrations about how would we feel if our children sinned then having to watch them burn alive for an eternity OR FOR EVEN A MOMENT.Some would respond and say God's holiness is without bounds and that would demand a gigantic punishment.Well,it does.But not the kind you have in mind.
If you say his holiness is infinitely greater than ours and that would dictate an eternity in fire,I would say to you that his love and mercy is also infinitely greater than ours and that would dictate no such thing.You're arguing something that is NOT biblically stated and from emotionalism and men's ideas.Yah wants sinners to repent..he doesn't want anyone to die but they HAVE to,or we would have chaos with people unwilling to serve him responsibly and wholly.(and holily<--that a word?)A world of peace can't thrive with willful sinners.A world of peace can't thrive with people burning alive forever beneath them either.(And the universal salvation folks,God ,again,is love.He isn't going to force people who want no part with him or who refuse to fully conform to his standards to appreciate the provisions and the eternal life in peace he promises to those who DO love him and desire to obey and please him(like Jesus most perfectly represented).He does not want a world of forced love and obedience.i.e. robots)
Jeremiah 32:35:they built the high places of Ba´al that are in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through [the fire] to Mo´lech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing
So if a few minutes of a child in fire repulses Jehovah,imagine the disdain and horror he would feel watching people burn alive forever.And if you say,oh those are innocent babies,I would say we are ALL children of God.He makes the rain fall and the sun shine on everyone because HIS DESIRE is for EVERYONE to be loving and obedient.He isn't being deceptive when he says "SOMETHING LIKE THIS" would NEVER enter his heart..he means it.In a big way.This literal eternal fire(ACTUALLY symbolic) nonsense serves no purpose.However,killing people would.He doesn't want evil to be ANYWHERE.It would still be somewhere,quite prevalently and noisily,if possibly billions of people were screaming crying and cursing in anguish for an eternity.WAKE UP!
Jesus couldn't even stand to see a leper or demon possessed person tormented temporarily(and I'm sure at least some of these folks were serious sinners)..He healed them all if they only asked.And this is the kind of heavenly king you think will be tolerable of what your preacher tickles your ears with?The eternal worm and "drop of water if only" nonsense being spouted as something LITERAL???This would be an essential tool in the construction of an atheist ...If I KNEW this false doctrine were true,I would certainly have to admit God has some sadist characteristics and I would be forced to examine whether I could serve this kind of God.From my understanding of the marvelous word,Satan is the sadist.And Jehovah doesn't even want to kill anyone,much less watch them burn FOREVER like a madman!I'm not saying I for sure WOULDN'T accept it because I am just dust,clay in the potter's hands,but thankfully Jah has alleviated any doubt to those willing to break it down,recognize symbolism for what it is,and honestly define all these words he uses to describe what REALLY happens to the unrighteous.
Essentially,we need to examine every word that is erroneously translated as "hell" in the bible.Hell isn't in the bible.Sheol,hades(ok these two basically mean grave or tomb) and gehenna are.Gehenna is the only one that should have fire imagery attached,and only symbolically..the Jews at the time would've had a big ol garbage dump(an actual location..google it) where there was fire that annihilated whatever was thrown in it turning it to ashes or zilch in mind when Jesus spoke about gehenna,which has erroneously been translated as hell.Lepers and the like were also cast there away from society.That is what the Jews had in their minds when Jesus was preaching about "hell"...ostracization from God,destruction.Research it yourself.Also important to note:Spirit(pneuma),means "life" or "breath" that Jah can restore in the resurrection..that is what returns to him when you die,the prospect of your being made alive again..Soul can mean body or life..It means life in Matt 10:28..no more hope to ever live again if your body and ALSO your prospect for resurrection is GONE,annihilated,just like the lake of fire,the 2nd FINAL DEATH(means cessation of existence),with no hope of resurrection.The word for forever doesn't even have to mean forever.Just as long as whatever it is describing lasts.Fire,for instance,just till whatever it is burning is destroyed..unquenched until whatever it is burning is destroyed.
To quote Steve Scianni from his essay "everlasting torment examined"
"Ages of ages is an indefinite amount of time finding its duration in connection to the object referred to.
We might also recall the smoke rising forever and ever in Isaiah 34 and Revelation 19:3 as denoting an indefinite but limited amount of time. Also, 2 Kings 5:27, Psalm 83:17, Matthew 21:19, and Philemon 15 are among numerous examples of the word forever limited to the duration of the entity spoken of.
Examine Jonah 2:6: To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in FOREVER.
But you brought my life up from the pit,
O LORD my God."
So Jonah said he was barred in the fish forever..Was he?Obviously,forever often means "for as long as what is spoken of lasts" in the bible.
Also,unquenchable fire didn't preserve forests or anything else in the bible it touched but rather annihilated whatever it did.See(PLEASE)Ezekial 20:47,Amos 5:6,and Matt 3:12 for examples of what unquenchable fire *really* does.
The bible is a marvelous puzzle,a tapestry of harmonious truth.When we see those vivid symbolisms being proclaimed in the NT,we have references in the OT and elsewhere in the NT to help us make sense of them ..for instance(this was in my last hell blog):
Isaiah 34:9,10:It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever
The above is referring to the wicked city of Edom..Go there today and see if you see literal smoke and fire!Nope,it is emphasizing the desolation and the absolute destruction. Same sort of terminology is used in Revelation to erroneously "prove" on a daily basis that a God of absolute love burns his wayward inherently sinful children alive forever.Examine also:
Jude 1:7 (King James Version)
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. explained HERE:
2 Peter 2:6:and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and DESTROYED them by burning them to ASHES, making them an example to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them; (what REALLY happens in fire(ashes)..eternal simply emphasizes the finality of the destruction,which the fire SYMBOLIZES.The length of the finality if it.)
Isaiah 47:14:Behold, they shall be as stubble(what REALLY happens in fire)
And for those who say death is no kinda torment..I ask you..If a holy merciful God was before you right now,or he sent His son to represent Him before you right now...AND you were told of the REMARKABLE kingdom to come where conditions were described to you similar to this:
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. :And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. :And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain;for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.The former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.In his days may the righteous flourish, And abundance of peace till the moon is no more.May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth "(Rev 21:3-5,Micah 4:3,Is 11:6-9,65:17,Ps 72:7,8)
If you heard that majestic description of the coming kingdom ...
Would you wail and cry and weep and "gnash teeth" if he said to you something like this:
"You will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come you are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. you do not listen, because you are not from God. I never knew you! Get away from me, you worker of lawlessness. "(John 8:43-47,Matt 7:21-23)
Or would you shrug your shoulders and say "big deal..goodnight"..If you say "big deal.goodnight.To eternal sleep I go..no biggie."..then your complacency and disregard alone merits your destruction.It's a HUGE deal to be killed instead of afforded an eternity in a paradisaic new world under the Most High of the Universe and his appointed merciful loving king for a literal eternity in unfathomably fantastic benevolent conditions.
One lady on youtube said to simply perish forever would be blissful.My idea of bliss is different(the eternal kingdom of God)..it would be TORMENT for me to miss out on this..to not be able to love and serve my God and his Christ forever!Imagine further,too,the enhancement of the torment if you assumed you were saved or righteous or close to God.If you assumed you knew it all and deserved to inherit these blessings(like the pharisees).Then ..BAM!..not so much !If that wouldn't make you cry and gnash your teeth what would?The fate of the wicked is punishment according to whatever their sins are(their sins aren't infinite!),a just one that leads to the second death where,yes,even hell and death are thrown!Death is said to be "no more" when thrown there which SHOULD appeal to your logic and help you discern that whatever gets thrown in the lake of fire doesn't get infinitely "preserved" but rather infinitely and quite literally destroyed.There is simply no "eternal destroying process" but rather eternal destruction from which there can be no redemption.
Now to go round & round if you'll indulge me for a minute..If what I have presented FROM THE WORD OF GOD is accepted by sincere hearts and utilized minds,then the whole "automatic immortal soul" thing orthodox Christians embrace like a baby does a soft blankey,is NOT TRUE.And you know what else that means!Yep,Jesus REALLY died.For 3 days.So the immortal soul,hellfire and trinity are all refuted in one fell swoop.
"No one ever REALLY dies"...sounds like Satan's lie in the garden of Eden to me!!If a soul never REALLY died,then Satan wasn't REALLY a liar.BREAKING news:If you are alive in heaven or hell,then you haven't perished,in any respect.And you are making God a liar.To which I say "Let God be found true though every man be found a liar!"No wonder we have been instructed repeatedly to "make sure of all things"..thoroughly EXAMINE the scriptures "in an undertone day and night"..Satan's deceptions have gone wild,like the girls in those stupid 10 dollar videos.He's a crafty lil critter,but we can't say we haven't been warned.I would also like to encourage you to study Plato's influence on early church fathers.They thought Plato was inspired by God.Then you'll spy the TRUE origin of the trinity and immortal soul.
The following is from this website:http://www.british-israel.ca/immortalsoul.htm
Plato, again taken from the Phaedo:
"The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible...Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body."
"Statements by such ancient Greek and Roman writers as Polybius, Cicero, Seneca, Strabo---and even Plato himself---have led some modern historians to question whether Plato really personally believed the immortal soul doctrine. They suggest that he may have simply popularized what he knew to be a fiction as a means of keeping the citizenry in line through the fear of mysterious "unseen things" beyond this life."
"Many of the early theologians and scholars of the professing Christian religion---including such men as Origen, Tertullian and Augustine---were closely associated with Platonism.Tertullian (A.D. 155-220), for example, wrote: "For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, the instance, is held by many ... I may use, therefore, the opinion of Plato, when he declares: 'Every soul is immortal'" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III).
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Col. 2:8).
I can only imagine Satan getting some real kicks from this abominable doctrine ,taunting Jehovah,saying something like "I have them believing you are like me..that you would enjoy this kind of ridiculous thing..What do you think about that?"To which Jehovah might say something like: "I am love.My good sheep know this.Nothing like this would ever enter my pure undefiled holy heart.They will see this.They will know."(Proverbs 27:11)
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death
Ezekial 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more(If he's alive and well pokin souls with pitchforks in an eternal literal fire,God is lying here)
Psalm 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish(remember spirit means "breath of life" that can be returned upon resurrection)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction (helps explain what eternal fire REALLY means)
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.(a destroyed soul!..can't redefine destroyed here unless you think it's the literal body burning alive here too...the same meaning of the word destroy for BOTH)
John 3:16 God loved world so much he sent his son so we may not PERISH(which means kaput)
Genesis 3:19-return to dust (which means kaput)
Couple facts about "hell"
1.Job begged to go there
2.Jesus went there.For 3 whole days.
As for the Rich man and Lazarus ..it IS a parable in a SERIES of parables.Hellfire spouters don't like to admit this because for some reason they think the names used HAVE to make it literal(they don't!) and tickling ears with traditional nonsense must be the desire of the day.If it sounds like a parable ,talks like a parable ,in a series of parables,it must be a parable.Which means it isn't literal. That alone should be a good enough reason not to build literal doctrines upon it's clearly parabolic intent.
Thursday, February 26, 2009
Reasoning with trinitarians part 3
This part of the blog is not written by me but is taken from a website,for which I'll provide the link:
http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html
Some key points:(lots of texts to look up..git bizzee)
Either Jesus has to be the one true God, or else he is a false god. Carrying this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, Moses must be either the one and only true God or a false god, since he was made ELOHIM to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel must be either the one and only true a true God or a else be false gods, since they were ELOHIM. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 [See Acts 23:5]) The angels must be the only true God or else they are false gods, since they are ELOHIM. (Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim) The sons of God to whom the Logos came must be the only true God or they are false gods, since they are called EL, ELOHIM and THEOI. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 10:34,35) The *EL*of Laban's hand must either be the only true God, or else be a false god. (Genesis 31:29) The EL of the hand of Israel must the only true God, or else be a false god. (Deuteronomy The EL of your hand must be the only true God or else the EL of you hand must be a false god. (Proverbs 3:27) The EL of Ezekiel 32:21 -- the mighty rulers in the nations spoken of in context -- must all be the only true God or else false gods.
Jesus is not his God whom he was with, the only true God who sent him. -- John 17:1,3,5
Jesus denied that he was God by stating over and over that he was sent by the only true God, could do nothing of his own self, everything he had was given to him by God, etc. (Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,22,23,27-30,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26)
Hebrew words for "god", when applied to any other than Yahweh, can take on a more general meaning of might, strength, power.
We can say that there is much in the way of Hebraic cultural heritage that supports the idea that one can be scripturally be called or have the title of "God" in a sense other than that of Supreme Being, or the Supreme Power.
When considering the Hebrew word *EL*, that this word is used to mean other than God Almighty or a false god may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in denoted by *..*: "It is in the *power* of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no *might* in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our *power*." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the *great* mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the *power* of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Pray unto *a god* [mighty one] that cannot save." (Isaiah 45:20) "Who among the sons of the *mighty*." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*." (Psalm 29:1) "The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh]." (Psalm 50:1) "The *strong* among the mighty shall speak" (Ezekiel 32:21)
Now my thoughts:
If someone is one hundred percent God then they are not one hundred percent man unless you are willing to ignore simple truth in favor of wild philosophy and mathematical impossibility.Again,understanding the Hebrew times,God's agents WERE God(as designated reps whose words and actions were not their own but by means of the spirit and allowance of Jah) and God doesn't always mean false god OR true Almighty God and as seen from numerous texts can mean a mighty ,powerful being,and not always a false one.The false ones are not really either mighty,or powerful.So when Jah called David and Moses God he meant "mighty ones"..mighty by whose power?According to Isaiah 9:7 by whose zeal and power was Jesus made mighty?
Jesus profusely prayed for a reason(besides love),he feared,in his mortal flesh,that he might be abandoned,even though I'm sure he knew better.The flesh is weak.(and trinitarians think God could actually do this or even empty himself..twisting texts that say his SON did,NOT HIM)While trying to make sense of the fact that Jesus deserves praise,obeisance and glory ALONG with Jehovah,trinitarians have wrongfully assumed they HAVE to be the same God..because God is one right?Just a wee bit of reasoning should help one to realize that Jesus is glorifying the Almighty as His appointed chief agent and heavenly king.Remember the earthly kings were rendered service and obeisance,so one shouldn't marvel at Jesus having such,while STILL being just a SON,the MOST exalted son :)It is the same as honoring Jehovah ,as he is the one who appointed them and gave them power and might.(Jah will hand the kingdom over to Christ for a 1000 yrs so it is him,who possesses Jah's spirit without measure whom we are honoring and obeying to the glory of his father,who loves him more than we can fathom and who allows him and wills unto him all this amazing power)To put it blatantly simply,serving Jah's representatives and appointed kings is the same as serving him.Their words and dealings are NOT THEIR OWN when they are accomplishing his will.
Keep in mind also that Lord is applied to many as well ,and rightfully so,not because these people are Jehovah,but because lord is a title of the head of someone or the head of peoples(gen 18:20,matt 10:24,20:8,21:30,27:63,1 pet 3:6,mark 13:35,acts 25:26)Jah GIVES Jesus his designation,might and power just as he did Moses.Doesn't Jehovah deserve credit for what his servants do?So when Jehovah does something,then it says someone else did that same something,does it mean that the persons involved must be the same?Or maybe it means he uses agents and takes rightful credit?<--yep.Who could've done anything without his direction and spirit??(and designation)I challenge trinitarians to give me an instance where Jesus didn't have to be given something,again.Where was his God and father not credited?If it would be common sense for us to know the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron were from God's hand and spirit,why do we assume Jesus's weren't?Even when he said they were?!Even when the bible makes clear he has been and will be used for Jah to accomplish things through?If Jah's glory can surround an angel as his representative then why must Jesus be Jah just because he shares that glory too? **Luke 2:9-11: “And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city.’ ”(his reps gleam with his glory in more ways than one..the glory could be literal or it could be a miracle he performs through them,or a power he allows them to possess,ALL things to Jehovah's glory,the one who sends and the one who gives freely,especially to his most beloved!) **Isaiah 11:2:The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.(remember that dove descending?Jah's spirit without measure is always with his messiah!Notice,too that Jesus even has a healthy fear of the LORD..remember the constant supplication. **Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. 19 If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I myself will make him answer for it. ..So Jah's messages are in the mouths of his agents.Just like his miracles and salvation are in the ones he sends forth to accomplish those things. **Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face..So Ezekial credits himself with something Jehovah did,as his agent. **Jeremiah 1:9:Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth 10. See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant..So when we see that Jeremiah breaks down,overthrows,builds,plants etc..then couldn't it be said of either Jeremiah or Jehovah?And couldn't Jehovah say that he does all this alone since it is only by means of his spirit that Jeremiah could? **Jeremiah 2:2 :Go and announce to Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: I remember the unfailing loyalty of your youth, the love you had for me as a bride. I remember how you followed me into the desert, into a land that couldn't be farmed....again,they followed Jeremiah,and as Jah's rep,they were following Jah. **Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God. ..take note of Moses speaking AS God!..his words are not his own(in verse 6)!(who else's words were not his own?) **Job 42:11:and comforted him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him-->so did Jehovah cause the suffering of Job?Nope,but his allowing it made it attributable to him in that respect.So here we have Jah given credit for something Satan did because Jah didn't stop it.
**Gen. 40:8:Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me them, I pray you....Now the reason I pasted this text is this..Joseph,who said the words then proceeded to interpret the dreams!IF Jesus had said these words and then proceeded to do what Joseph did it would be cited all the time and used as proof of the trinity.Therefore when a servant(and yes Jesus served Jehovah and still does) of Jah's does something miraculous,what can we conclude?That they had no help?Then when they do accomplish something by means of God's spirit,I ask you,again,couldn't Jehovah say HE accomplished it ,alone even?
The book "Alleged Discrepancies in the Bible" by John W. Haley :
"It is consistent with Hebrew modes of thought that whatever occurs in the world, under the overruling providence of God, what he suffers to take place, should be attributed to his agency."
Imagine you have a God and father you know intimately well because he revealed his spirit fully to you and that you lived closer to him and ARE closer to him than any other child he has.Imagine your God needed you to accomplish something for him because for whatever reason he couldn't(his magnificence could not be beheld ,he could not possibly die etc) and he gave you the words to say and a thorough instruction guide to get things done,would you ignore all his wishes and commands?What if you loved him more than anyone in the world could ever fathom?What if he epitomized love himself AND promised you a fantastic reward upon completion of his assignment?What if he possessed some sort of majestic force he uses to help his will get accomplished and could pour it out anywhere or upon anyone he so desired?What if he used that force to be present with you and generously poured it upon you to help you make it through the assignment?And imagine upon completion of it,you get rewarded and he commands everyone to revere you with the same reverence they revere him as someone who ensured them their eternal lives in a perfect kingdom by what you accomplished.In no way by doing this though,was he negating his position as your boss and the one who gave you the power and will and even your very life to accomplish his will.And when you are freely and generously given all your power,will you ignore all that you have learned and all that you will learn from the one who gave it to you?Will you use the standards of the very one who you proclaim is your God and greater than you when you accomplish HIS WILL?Do you think he will abandon you in your future assignments ,you and your brothers that he allowed you to adopt as your own just because he loves you?He will always be there for you and you will always be his most beloved,faithful and true.Faithful and true and beloved to whom?Sent and used as agent and representative for whom?YOURSELF?When does all this suddenly MAKE YOU THE SAME GOD WHO SENT YOU AND GAVE YOU EVERYTHING?
The father GAVE Jesus EVERYTHING right?And what about the father being the only true God can't people grasp?(Mark 12:28-34)If Jesus was 1/3 of a godhead he wouldn't have distinguished himself from another third as lesser or had to be given anything from anyone.In no way shape or form can 1/3 of God be submissive to another 1/3 of God unless you are willing to open your window and toss logic clear to timbuktu in favor of biblically condemned philosophical leanings that were and apparently still are prevalent.Erroneous manmade "puffed up" "knowledge" outside of God's simple truth of his singularity and Jesus singularity,sonship,as messiah and king BY GOD'S appointment.God is now his own king?God is now his own God?God became a man?God died?God was tempted and possessed a will different than his own?God is his own father?God constantly gave 1/3 of himself credit for another 1/3's sayings and doings?1/3 of God inherited what another 1/3 of God had because 1/3 of God had emptied himself?You'll have to excuse me for my inability to grasp this wild philosophical greek-inspired conjecture,but didn't the bible say that he sent his SON?When did Son of God start meaning God?Who was the first trinitarian?And where does God or Jesus talk about their substances enough to start formulating creeds about it?Aren't all heavenly beings composed of a celestial nature?Who are trinitarians to define the nature and substance of the Almighty?Shouldn't we stick to what IS revealed?And if I am out of line saying 1/3 a lot because each person of the "godhead" is each 100% percent God then you'll just have to excuse me for saying you have 3 100% Gods.And if that angers you,you have to understand that is NOT my intention.I'm just being realistic and seeking to expose a doctrine I clearly oppose as a truth seeker and a holder to the singularity of the one and ONLY Almighty.(Deut 6:4,John 17:3,Ps. 83:18)It hurts me a little to see sincere people who have an awesome zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge,the very thing I am accused of.(Rom. 10:2)
from:
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas:
"When we take into account the inevitable "falling away" or "apostasy" foretold in the Christian scriptures,and at the same time appreciating the very real influence of invisible though hostile spiritual forces that surround us,as well as the overall weakness and fallibility intrinsic to the human condition,it becomes to a certain degree understandable that devout students of the bible have gone into different directions on such a crucial matter."
"Nearly every argument made to advance and uphold this established doctrine always relies on a notable excessive degree of theological inference,an unusual and innovative kind of thinking,and even,in certain cases,farfetched philosophical speculation based on preconceived views and already established theological concepts."
http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html
Some key points:(lots of texts to look up..git bizzee)
Either Jesus has to be the one true God, or else he is a false god. Carrying this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, Moses must be either the one and only true God or a false god, since he was made ELOHIM to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel must be either the one and only true a true God or a else be false gods, since they were ELOHIM. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 [See Acts 23:5]) The angels must be the only true God or else they are false gods, since they are ELOHIM. (Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim) The sons of God to whom the Logos came must be the only true God or they are false gods, since they are called EL, ELOHIM and THEOI. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 10:34,35) The *EL*of Laban's hand must either be the only true God, or else be a false god. (Genesis 31:29) The EL of the hand of Israel must the only true God, or else be a false god. (Deuteronomy The EL of your hand must be the only true God or else the EL of you hand must be a false god. (Proverbs 3:27) The EL of Ezekiel 32:21 -- the mighty rulers in the nations spoken of in context -- must all be the only true God or else false gods.
Jesus is not his God whom he was with, the only true God who sent him. -- John 17:1,3,5
Jesus denied that he was God by stating over and over that he was sent by the only true God, could do nothing of his own self, everything he had was given to him by God, etc. (Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,22,23,27-30,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26)
Hebrew words for "god", when applied to any other than Yahweh, can take on a more general meaning of might, strength, power.
We can say that there is much in the way of Hebraic cultural heritage that supports the idea that one can be scripturally be called or have the title of "God" in a sense other than that of Supreme Being, or the Supreme Power.
When considering the Hebrew word *EL*, that this word is used to mean other than God Almighty or a false god may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in denoted by *..*: "It is in the *power* of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no *might* in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our *power*." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the *great* mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the *power* of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Pray unto *a god* [mighty one] that cannot save." (Isaiah 45:20) "Who among the sons of the *mighty*." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*." (Psalm 29:1) "The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh]." (Psalm 50:1) "The *strong* among the mighty shall speak" (Ezekiel 32:21)
Now my thoughts:
If someone is one hundred percent God then they are not one hundred percent man unless you are willing to ignore simple truth in favor of wild philosophy and mathematical impossibility.Again,understanding the Hebrew times,God's agents WERE God(as designated reps whose words and actions were not their own but by means of the spirit and allowance of Jah) and God doesn't always mean false god OR true Almighty God and as seen from numerous texts can mean a mighty ,powerful being,and not always a false one.The false ones are not really either mighty,or powerful.So when Jah called David and Moses God he meant "mighty ones"..mighty by whose power?According to Isaiah 9:7 by whose zeal and power was Jesus made mighty?
Jesus profusely prayed for a reason(besides love),he feared,in his mortal flesh,that he might be abandoned,even though I'm sure he knew better.The flesh is weak.(and trinitarians think God could actually do this or even empty himself..twisting texts that say his SON did,NOT HIM)While trying to make sense of the fact that Jesus deserves praise,obeisance and glory ALONG with Jehovah,trinitarians have wrongfully assumed they HAVE to be the same God..because God is one right?Just a wee bit of reasoning should help one to realize that Jesus is glorifying the Almighty as His appointed chief agent and heavenly king.Remember the earthly kings were rendered service and obeisance,so one shouldn't marvel at Jesus having such,while STILL being just a SON,the MOST exalted son :)It is the same as honoring Jehovah ,as he is the one who appointed them and gave them power and might.(Jah will hand the kingdom over to Christ for a 1000 yrs so it is him,who possesses Jah's spirit without measure whom we are honoring and obeying to the glory of his father,who loves him more than we can fathom and who allows him and wills unto him all this amazing power)To put it blatantly simply,serving Jah's representatives and appointed kings is the same as serving him.Their words and dealings are NOT THEIR OWN when they are accomplishing his will.
Keep in mind also that Lord is applied to many as well ,and rightfully so,not because these people are Jehovah,but because lord is a title of the head of someone or the head of peoples(gen 18:20,matt 10:24,20:8,21:30,27:63,1 pet 3:6,mark 13:35,acts 25:26)Jah GIVES Jesus his designation,might and power just as he did Moses.Doesn't Jehovah deserve credit for what his servants do?So when Jehovah does something,then it says someone else did that same something,does it mean that the persons involved must be the same?Or maybe it means he uses agents and takes rightful credit?<--yep.Who could've done anything without his direction and spirit??(and designation)I challenge trinitarians to give me an instance where Jesus didn't have to be given something,again.Where was his God and father not credited?If it would be common sense for us to know the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron were from God's hand and spirit,why do we assume Jesus's weren't?Even when he said they were?!Even when the bible makes clear he has been and will be used for Jah to accomplish things through?If Jah's glory can surround an angel as his representative then why must Jesus be Jah just because he shares that glory too? **Luke 2:9-11: “And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city.’ ”(his reps gleam with his glory in more ways than one..the glory could be literal or it could be a miracle he performs through them,or a power he allows them to possess,ALL things to Jehovah's glory,the one who sends and the one who gives freely,especially to his most beloved!) **Isaiah 11:2:The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.(remember that dove descending?Jah's spirit without measure is always with his messiah!Notice,too that Jesus even has a healthy fear of the LORD..remember the constant supplication. **Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. 19 If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I myself will make him answer for it. ..So Jah's messages are in the mouths of his agents.Just like his miracles and salvation are in the ones he sends forth to accomplish those things. **Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face..So Ezekial credits himself with something Jehovah did,as his agent. **Jeremiah 1:9:Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth 10. See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant..So when we see that Jeremiah breaks down,overthrows,builds,plants etc..then couldn't it be said of either Jeremiah or Jehovah?And couldn't Jehovah say that he does all this alone since it is only by means of his spirit that Jeremiah could? **Jeremiah 2:2 :Go and announce to Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: I remember the unfailing loyalty of your youth, the love you had for me as a bride. I remember how you followed me into the desert, into a land that couldn't be farmed....again,they followed Jeremiah,and as Jah's rep,they were following Jah. **Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God. ..take note of Moses speaking AS God!..his words are not his own(in verse 6)!(who else's words were not his own?) **Job 42:11:and comforted him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him-->so did Jehovah cause the suffering of Job?Nope,but his allowing it made it attributable to him in that respect.So here we have Jah given credit for something Satan did because Jah didn't stop it.
**Gen. 40:8:Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me them, I pray you....Now the reason I pasted this text is this..Joseph,who said the words then proceeded to interpret the dreams!IF Jesus had said these words and then proceeded to do what Joseph did it would be cited all the time and used as proof of the trinity.Therefore when a servant(and yes Jesus served Jehovah and still does) of Jah's does something miraculous,what can we conclude?That they had no help?Then when they do accomplish something by means of God's spirit,I ask you,again,couldn't Jehovah say HE accomplished it ,alone even?
The book "Alleged Discrepancies in the Bible" by John W. Haley :
"It is consistent with Hebrew modes of thought that whatever occurs in the world, under the overruling providence of God, what he suffers to take place, should be attributed to his agency."
Imagine you have a God and father you know intimately well because he revealed his spirit fully to you and that you lived closer to him and ARE closer to him than any other child he has.Imagine your God needed you to accomplish something for him because for whatever reason he couldn't(his magnificence could not be beheld ,he could not possibly die etc) and he gave you the words to say and a thorough instruction guide to get things done,would you ignore all his wishes and commands?What if you loved him more than anyone in the world could ever fathom?What if he epitomized love himself AND promised you a fantastic reward upon completion of his assignment?What if he possessed some sort of majestic force he uses to help his will get accomplished and could pour it out anywhere or upon anyone he so desired?What if he used that force to be present with you and generously poured it upon you to help you make it through the assignment?And imagine upon completion of it,you get rewarded and he commands everyone to revere you with the same reverence they revere him as someone who ensured them their eternal lives in a perfect kingdom by what you accomplished.In no way by doing this though,was he negating his position as your boss and the one who gave you the power and will and even your very life to accomplish his will.And when you are freely and generously given all your power,will you ignore all that you have learned and all that you will learn from the one who gave it to you?Will you use the standards of the very one who you proclaim is your God and greater than you when you accomplish HIS WILL?Do you think he will abandon you in your future assignments ,you and your brothers that he allowed you to adopt as your own just because he loves you?He will always be there for you and you will always be his most beloved,faithful and true.Faithful and true and beloved to whom?Sent and used as agent and representative for whom?YOURSELF?When does all this suddenly MAKE YOU THE SAME GOD WHO SENT YOU AND GAVE YOU EVERYTHING?
The father GAVE Jesus EVERYTHING right?And what about the father being the only true God can't people grasp?(Mark 12:28-34)If Jesus was 1/3 of a godhead he wouldn't have distinguished himself from another third as lesser or had to be given anything from anyone.In no way shape or form can 1/3 of God be submissive to another 1/3 of God unless you are willing to open your window and toss logic clear to timbuktu in favor of biblically condemned philosophical leanings that were and apparently still are prevalent.Erroneous manmade "puffed up" "knowledge" outside of God's simple truth of his singularity and Jesus singularity,sonship,as messiah and king BY GOD'S appointment.God is now his own king?God is now his own God?God became a man?God died?God was tempted and possessed a will different than his own?God is his own father?God constantly gave 1/3 of himself credit for another 1/3's sayings and doings?1/3 of God inherited what another 1/3 of God had because 1/3 of God had emptied himself?You'll have to excuse me for my inability to grasp this wild philosophical greek-inspired conjecture,but didn't the bible say that he sent his SON?When did Son of God start meaning God?Who was the first trinitarian?And where does God or Jesus talk about their substances enough to start formulating creeds about it?Aren't all heavenly beings composed of a celestial nature?Who are trinitarians to define the nature and substance of the Almighty?Shouldn't we stick to what IS revealed?And if I am out of line saying 1/3 a lot because each person of the "godhead" is each 100% percent God then you'll just have to excuse me for saying you have 3 100% Gods.And if that angers you,you have to understand that is NOT my intention.I'm just being realistic and seeking to expose a doctrine I clearly oppose as a truth seeker and a holder to the singularity of the one and ONLY Almighty.(Deut 6:4,John 17:3,Ps. 83:18)It hurts me a little to see sincere people who have an awesome zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge,the very thing I am accused of.(Rom. 10:2)
from:
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas:
"When we take into account the inevitable "falling away" or "apostasy" foretold in the Christian scriptures,and at the same time appreciating the very real influence of invisible though hostile spiritual forces that surround us,as well as the overall weakness and fallibility intrinsic to the human condition,it becomes to a certain degree understandable that devout students of the bible have gone into different directions on such a crucial matter."
"Nearly every argument made to advance and uphold this established doctrine always relies on a notable excessive degree of theological inference,an unusual and innovative kind of thinking,and even,in certain cases,farfetched philosophical speculation based on preconceived views and already established theological concepts."
Tuesday, February 17, 2009
Imaginary conversation with a trinitarian
Kellie:You think 3 persons each individually called almighty God equals one God?
trinitarian:yes,3 persons,1 GOD
Kellie:How did you come to this conclusion?
trinitarian:those three persons are each called God so it has to mean they are all one God,because God is one
Kellie:So it doesn't matter to you that all kinds of people are called God,from Moses to angels to judges?
trinitarian:It is different because Jesus is worshipped and given God's name
Kellie:It doesn't matter to you that others are "proskeneo'd" to God's glory and given God's name as well?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus
Kellie:I agree that Jesus is more important than these others but does that mean he is God just because of his being exalted BY GOD above others?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..he shares God's throne and glory
Kellie:What of the others who do?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus because he is the EXACT representation of God's glory and ALL THE FULLNESS of God was in him in bodily form
Kellie:The bible says Jesus was given God's holy spirit WITHOUT measure,explaining his representing him so poignantly.Also,If Jesus is Almighty God and all of Jesus' fullness dwells in believers,does that mean they too have to be equally Almighty God?
trinitarian:Jesus is called the first and the last,the almighty,the alpha and Omega
Kellie:Actually he is only called the first and the last as a different application than that to Jehovah.It is succintly explained in context..first raised from the dead,last directly by Jah because he was GIVEN the key to death and hades,so that THROUGH him all others would be raised.It is QUITE common in scripture to apply identical phrases to different people because it could be said of BOTH for different reasons,in different applications and fulfillments
trinitarian:You mean to tell me you think there can be more than one first and last?
Kellie:yes,when you look at context absolutely..it is explained if you are willing to reason.BOTH times he is the immediate context is his death and resurrection.
trinitarian:What about Jehovah being called almighty as the one coming..we know Jesus is coming,not Jehovah so Jesus has to be Jehovah
Kellie:You don't think Jehovah will be with Jesus to exact vengeance?You don't think Jesus will use his father's standards and direction in judging etc?The bible says he'll be coming in the glory of his father and the angels!You don't think that the way of Jehovah IS the way of Jesus since Jesus does everything his father tells him to do and lives by his fathers standards?And Jesus isn't ever called almighty.
trintarian:you're dancing around the issue..They're each individually almighty God,but there's only one almighty God,existing in 3 persons.That simple.
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:the trinity is a bit of a mystery because great is the mystery of godliness
Kellie:It's only a mystery if it hasn't been revealed.What do you think of Deuteronomy 6:4?
trinitarian:I think echad denotes unity of persons
Kellie:Echad means a numerical one just like the English language "one" functions."Show me an instance where echad denotes unity with more than one person involved in that unity when those persons aren't all mentioned
trinitarian:I'll have to look into that
Kellie:great
triniatrian:Mind if I show you a list of titles applied to both that can only be applied to Jehovah?
Kellie:that'll be fine if you'll allow me as well to present to you a list of titles used of others and used of Jesus as well that would SEEM to be exclusive to either.
trinitarian:that's different because these people foreshadowed Jesus
Kellie:so you don't think it could also be that those words apply to both in different applications and not just because of foreshadowing?In other words..those words and phrases can be applied to both in separate fulfillments.Jesus is Yah's agent.And are you willing to say that all these people whom Jah created foreshadow Jah,whom you think Jesus is?
trinitarian:no ,they just foreshadow his human nature
Kellie:Where does the bible say Jesus was a hundred percent Jehovah on top of a hundred percent man?
trinitarian:that's just common sense because God can't stop being God even when he empties himself
Kellie:where does the bible say Jehovah emptied himself?Doesn't the bible say that Jesus humbled himself even though he was the Last Adam,heir to a throne, and that Jesus is Jehovah's son?
trinitarian:Son of God=God like son of man=man
Kellie:Isn't that a wild assumption since God created ALL things and man did not?
trinitarian:It's clear
Kellie:I think so too..I think son of God means son of God.Angels are sons of God.
Trinitarian:To which of the angels did he ever say that?!
Kellie:Jesus is the only begotten unique son of God because he was born of a virgin by God's spirit and most extolled heir.He conquered the world to save our lives.
trinitarian:that's another thing..only God can save us
Kellie: I agree..he designated someone to do so. But in the scales of justice who was powerful enough to make all of us lose our lives?
trinitarian:Adam?
Kellie:yes..wasn't he first created perfect earthly son of God?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:Isn't God perfectly just?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:so why then wouldn't another perfect creation of God be good enough to buy back what another had lost?
trinitarian:He said no God after him was formed.If you think Jesus is a "little god", you're a polytheist
Kellie:there are many gods,only one true Jehovah almighty God.No one else is Jehovah but Jehovah.Even when his agents are given his name,it is only a Hebrew right.Their words and actions are not their own when his spirit is directing them.Are you willing to say that People God HIMSELF called gods and lords are false ones?I'm not.
trinitarian:are you willing to give worship and sacred service to a creature?
Kellie:Are you willing to admit that created designated powerful beings are sometimes as chief agents and representatives of the Most High given "proskeneo" to Jehovah's glory?And rendered service BECAUSE they are upholding Jah's statutes in their powerful positions that he gave them?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..his name is above EVERY name.
Kellie:you think it is above Jehovah's?In light of 1 cor 15:27,28 are you willing to say that in instances where Jesus is above everyone else that it must mean he is Jehovah?Isn't it common sense to know that ,again,according to 1 Corinthians that it is obviously WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who MADE him above all things?Does Jehovah have to qualify that simple discernible truth every time?
trinitarian:In other words..you're willing to worship a creature and serve a creature and credit a creature for your salvation.
Kellie:I'm willing to accept Jesus as designated Lord,savior and theocratic king.Again,Jehovah allows his CHIEF agents obeisance.I have instances where it is appropriate ,but always to HIS glory,if you'd like to go through a few.I recognize that Jehovah saved and that Jehovah rules THROUGH Jesus.That we are to give those taking the lead among us "double honor" etc..Jesus is miles above them so why not honor him?As the one who most perfectly follows his father's footsteps,he has been rewarded with our honor and Jehovah's exaltation like no other!
trinitarian:sounds like creature worship to me.
Kellie:when angels and kings at times were "proskeneo'd" you think it was inappropriate?
trinitarian:Angels and kings aren't worshipped.Only Jehovah ,in 3 persons,is!They may be honored,but not worshipped
Kellie:The SAME word is used,and it can mean a number of things.If Jehovah told you that you were standing on sacred ground because a mighty angel showed up as his chief representative before you,would you bow before him,recognizing whose glory he was representative of,and whose words he was delivering,to the glory of the chief angel's God?Wasn't Moses called God?Weren't angels called gods?Why were Jah's kings "proskeneo'd"?
trinitarian:I'm not willing to worship a creature.
Kellie:Jesus isn't just some creature.He was exalted above the angels.Notice though that it doesn't say it was his rightful position but that he was rewarded ONLY BECAUSE of his perfect obedience and faithfulness?It says he was better ONLY to the extent that he inherited a name better,not that he has some inherent greater ontology or greek substance.When one is exalted it means they are raised to a higher position than they had before.
Trinitarian:right,he was exalted again back to where he was because he had emptied himself
Kellie:But if he was always equally almighty God then that human nature shouldn't have mattered.You can't be exalted by someone if you are 100 percent God.
trinitarian:you are ignoring the human nature
Kellie:My point is the God nature should trump the human and negate the fact that the human nature would have any limitations at all.
trinitarian:I'm not sure I get what you mean
Kellie:Jesus was exalted ,not from his human nature,but from his previous position as Jah's chief word and representative to his chief word and representative PLUS theocratic king of Jah's kingdom government,with a much touted admired name that is above every other except the One's who gave it to him,one that he EARNED through love,supplication,obedience and saving mankind.
trinitarian:Oh so you don't think Jesus is God?lol
Kellie:You could tell?
trinitarian:yes,3 persons,1 GOD
Kellie:How did you come to this conclusion?
trinitarian:those three persons are each called God so it has to mean they are all one God,because God is one
Kellie:So it doesn't matter to you that all kinds of people are called God,from Moses to angels to judges?
trinitarian:It is different because Jesus is worshipped and given God's name
Kellie:It doesn't matter to you that others are "proskeneo'd" to God's glory and given God's name as well?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus
Kellie:I agree that Jesus is more important than these others but does that mean he is God just because of his being exalted BY GOD above others?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..he shares God's throne and glory
Kellie:What of the others who do?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus because he is the EXACT representation of God's glory and ALL THE FULLNESS of God was in him in bodily form
Kellie:The bible says Jesus was given God's holy spirit WITHOUT measure,explaining his representing him so poignantly.Also,If Jesus is Almighty God and all of Jesus' fullness dwells in believers,does that mean they too have to be equally Almighty God?
trinitarian:Jesus is called the first and the last,the almighty,the alpha and Omega
Kellie:Actually he is only called the first and the last as a different application than that to Jehovah.It is succintly explained in context..first raised from the dead,last directly by Jah because he was GIVEN the key to death and hades,so that THROUGH him all others would be raised.It is QUITE common in scripture to apply identical phrases to different people because it could be said of BOTH for different reasons,in different applications and fulfillments
trinitarian:You mean to tell me you think there can be more than one first and last?
Kellie:yes,when you look at context absolutely..it is explained if you are willing to reason.BOTH times he is the immediate context is his death and resurrection.
trinitarian:What about Jehovah being called almighty as the one coming..we know Jesus is coming,not Jehovah so Jesus has to be Jehovah
Kellie:You don't think Jehovah will be with Jesus to exact vengeance?You don't think Jesus will use his father's standards and direction in judging etc?The bible says he'll be coming in the glory of his father and the angels!You don't think that the way of Jehovah IS the way of Jesus since Jesus does everything his father tells him to do and lives by his fathers standards?And Jesus isn't ever called almighty.
trintarian:you're dancing around the issue..They're each individually almighty God,but there's only one almighty God,existing in 3 persons.That simple.
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:the trinity is a bit of a mystery because great is the mystery of godliness
Kellie:It's only a mystery if it hasn't been revealed.What do you think of Deuteronomy 6:4?
trinitarian:I think echad denotes unity of persons
Kellie:Echad means a numerical one just like the English language "one" functions."Show me an instance where echad denotes unity with more than one person involved in that unity when those persons aren't all mentioned
trinitarian:I'll have to look into that
Kellie:great
triniatrian:Mind if I show you a list of titles applied to both that can only be applied to Jehovah?
Kellie:that'll be fine if you'll allow me as well to present to you a list of titles used of others and used of Jesus as well that would SEEM to be exclusive to either.
trinitarian:that's different because these people foreshadowed Jesus
Kellie:so you don't think it could also be that those words apply to both in different applications and not just because of foreshadowing?In other words..those words and phrases can be applied to both in separate fulfillments.Jesus is Yah's agent.And are you willing to say that all these people whom Jah created foreshadow Jah,whom you think Jesus is?
trinitarian:no ,they just foreshadow his human nature
Kellie:Where does the bible say Jesus was a hundred percent Jehovah on top of a hundred percent man?
trinitarian:that's just common sense because God can't stop being God even when he empties himself
Kellie:where does the bible say Jehovah emptied himself?Doesn't the bible say that Jesus humbled himself even though he was the Last Adam,heir to a throne, and that Jesus is Jehovah's son?
trinitarian:Son of God=God like son of man=man
Kellie:Isn't that a wild assumption since God created ALL things and man did not?
trinitarian:It's clear
Kellie:I think so too..I think son of God means son of God.Angels are sons of God.
Trinitarian:To which of the angels did he ever say that?!
Kellie:Jesus is the only begotten unique son of God because he was born of a virgin by God's spirit and most extolled heir.He conquered the world to save our lives.
trinitarian:that's another thing..only God can save us
Kellie: I agree..he designated someone to do so. But in the scales of justice who was powerful enough to make all of us lose our lives?
trinitarian:Adam?
Kellie:yes..wasn't he first created perfect earthly son of God?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:Isn't God perfectly just?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:so why then wouldn't another perfect creation of God be good enough to buy back what another had lost?
trinitarian:He said no God after him was formed.If you think Jesus is a "little god", you're a polytheist
Kellie:there are many gods,only one true Jehovah almighty God.No one else is Jehovah but Jehovah.Even when his agents are given his name,it is only a Hebrew right.Their words and actions are not their own when his spirit is directing them.Are you willing to say that People God HIMSELF called gods and lords are false ones?I'm not.
trinitarian:are you willing to give worship and sacred service to a creature?
Kellie:Are you willing to admit that created designated powerful beings are sometimes as chief agents and representatives of the Most High given "proskeneo" to Jehovah's glory?And rendered service BECAUSE they are upholding Jah's statutes in their powerful positions that he gave them?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..his name is above EVERY name.
Kellie:you think it is above Jehovah's?In light of 1 cor 15:27,28 are you willing to say that in instances where Jesus is above everyone else that it must mean he is Jehovah?Isn't it common sense to know that ,again,according to 1 Corinthians that it is obviously WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who MADE him above all things?Does Jehovah have to qualify that simple discernible truth every time?
trinitarian:In other words..you're willing to worship a creature and serve a creature and credit a creature for your salvation.
Kellie:I'm willing to accept Jesus as designated Lord,savior and theocratic king.Again,Jehovah allows his CHIEF agents obeisance.I have instances where it is appropriate ,but always to HIS glory,if you'd like to go through a few.I recognize that Jehovah saved and that Jehovah rules THROUGH Jesus.That we are to give those taking the lead among us "double honor" etc..Jesus is miles above them so why not honor him?As the one who most perfectly follows his father's footsteps,he has been rewarded with our honor and Jehovah's exaltation like no other!
trinitarian:sounds like creature worship to me.
Kellie:when angels and kings at times were "proskeneo'd" you think it was inappropriate?
trinitarian:Angels and kings aren't worshipped.Only Jehovah ,in 3 persons,is!They may be honored,but not worshipped
Kellie:The SAME word is used,and it can mean a number of things.If Jehovah told you that you were standing on sacred ground because a mighty angel showed up as his chief representative before you,would you bow before him,recognizing whose glory he was representative of,and whose words he was delivering,to the glory of the chief angel's God?Wasn't Moses called God?Weren't angels called gods?Why were Jah's kings "proskeneo'd"?
trinitarian:I'm not willing to worship a creature.
Kellie:Jesus isn't just some creature.He was exalted above the angels.Notice though that it doesn't say it was his rightful position but that he was rewarded ONLY BECAUSE of his perfect obedience and faithfulness?It says he was better ONLY to the extent that he inherited a name better,not that he has some inherent greater ontology or greek substance.When one is exalted it means they are raised to a higher position than they had before.
Trinitarian:right,he was exalted again back to where he was because he had emptied himself
Kellie:But if he was always equally almighty God then that human nature shouldn't have mattered.You can't be exalted by someone if you are 100 percent God.
trinitarian:you are ignoring the human nature
Kellie:My point is the God nature should trump the human and negate the fact that the human nature would have any limitations at all.
trinitarian:I'm not sure I get what you mean
Kellie:Jesus was exalted ,not from his human nature,but from his previous position as Jah's chief word and representative to his chief word and representative PLUS theocratic king of Jah's kingdom government,with a much touted admired name that is above every other except the One's who gave it to him,one that he EARNED through love,supplication,obedience and saving mankind.
trinitarian:Oh so you don't think Jesus is God?lol
Kellie:You could tell?
Sunday, February 15, 2009
Reasoning with Trinitarians part 2
I know there are mysteries about God that as finite wee humans we cannot comprehend,but thankfully what he has revealed we can know.And he has revealed that he is not a trinity..And Jesus has revealed that he is inferior,even after his ascension.(John 14:28,eph 1:17)Common sense and scripture unite to declare to us the simple truth of Jehovah and his appointed king!
What does the spirit of the antichrist confess?That Jesus never came in the flesh and that he never died and was raised?
Don't trinitarians believe that Jesus was 100% God AS WELL as 100% flesh.Can God be flesh?(num 23:19,rom 1:23)And where does the bible say he was 100 percent God on top of that 100 percent flesh?(1 cor 15:21)I only see that he was flesh .(1 tim 2:5)Trinitarians also believe Jesus as "God the son" never died.Guess what?Jesus died,and not just a flesh capsule of his.Is Jesus REALLY 2 natures..because the trinitarian numbers add up to 200 percent.(trinitarians employ "voodoo" mathematics ;)The bible makes clear that Jesus,ALL of him,the ACTUAL PERSON of him died.For three whole days.If someone has proof otherwise,bring it on.And if your proof is that his spirit went to God then I urge you to look up the definition of that word used for spirit and realize that happens to everyone at death.(Luke 23:46).Is no one really dead?And what is up with the whole resurrection thing if not?(acts 24:15)And why are the dead described by Jesus as sleeping?(John 11:11)And the bible as having no thoughts etc.?(ecc 9:5,10)Spirit can mean life(pneuma ),and when we die our future life prospects,clearly,are given back to Jehovah.(ps 146:4)Who can restore "the breath of life" to us just as he did to Jesus upon OUR resurrection.(gen 2:7)I keep emphasizing these points because if someone is willing to be honest with scripture and self,one MUST admit Jesus died and therefore cannot be God.And that if anyone doesn't believe Jesus REALLY DIED for us(ALL OF HIM),he is hazardously confessing a "different Jesus".(2 cor 11:3,4..apostasy started way back even then!)Did anyone in the bible who was resurrected ever mention the torment they had burning alive or the bliss they had in heaven before they were brought back??Wonder why that is?Death means lack of breath,thinking ability,speech,you name it..Anything beyond that is not biblical.Dead can be brought BACK to life.(1 cor 15:40)It's basic truth.Are you maybe just reasoning through a "what you've always been taught" kind of lens?(mark 7:13)I hope upon further prayerful examination and meditation you will consider that Jesus was REALLY flesh when he came to the earth,which rules out the ability to be God.(Is 31:3,1 tim 6:16.John 4:24)And that he was REALLY dead for three days,not alive.Otherwise,again,you have been taught "another Jesus" than that which the bible declares(1 tim 1:3).No death,no atonement.Death of only one nature of 2,unbiblical.(mark 8:31,col 2:8)And not a real *death* according to the bible's own definition of the word!
I don't agree with all this person believes but I found this page interesting..check it out!(I've never seen anyone put Jesus on a witness stand in a blog before.)
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html
Interestingly enough,trinitarians oft say that only God would be good enough to have died to remove our sin from us,yet they say God didn't die,just his human nature.But by that very reasoning,wouldn't his human nature alone not have been good enough?
**Matt 27:62-64:'**He**(a person,not just a flesh capsule that once had a person in it) has risen from the dead
**Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
**Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades.(Jesus)
**John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”
**John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”
**Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)
**The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:16)
**Hebrews 5:7 "As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God".
I for one can't appreciate the philosophical spin trinitarians put on who Jehovah and Jesus are.(1 cor 8:6,John 17:3)
Another objection:Jesus is given God's name so he must be God.(John 17:11)First of all if someone is given something he isn't the one who gave it.Just like if someone is representing someone else(I don't care how perfectly) that person cannot be the one they represent.Being in the form of someone ALSO excludes the possibility that you are that someone.(trinity "proof" texts usually refute themselves.)
Jesus LITERALLY means "Jehovah is salvation" so everytime you are calling upon Jesus name you are calling on Jehovah's.(For those of you who think it is unuterrable and too holy to be recognized.)There's a new name given to all sons if God.(rev 14:1)Jehovah's name is said to be in his agents.(ex 23:20,21)As his agents of message deliverance and salvation(in Jesus case) they bear his name..His name is his will.And he uses his agents to "cause whatever he wills to become."His name means "he causes to become".So whoever he uses to cause his will to take place,bear his name.(ex 7:1)That simple.Whomever he uses become "as God' and whomever he speaks through,CAN be termed "Yahweh" as his word if Yahweh so wills.THE AGENT BEARS THE NAME OF THE PRINCIPLE.(especially if they are chief agent or specially favored,as would the Angel of Yah and Jesus have been..)This is typical in Hebrew times!And a Hebrew truth that trinitarians haven't recognized,at least not in the case of Jesus.His agents are even "proskuneo'd" to his glory,not just Jesus.Those who did recognized who it REALLY was they were honoring,as his representatives and appointed kings etc.As lords and gods.(yes,real lords and gods..there should be no implication here that these common titles mean Sovereign Lord Most High of the universe).Clearly,Jah is one.And he means one..not triune,which doesn't mean one.I would like to make perfectly clear that God makes perfectly clear his singularity,nor does he shy away from saying "I am God.Worship me"..something Jesus neva eva said.However he did say a lot of things that proved he was inferior,and not because he is Godman,but because he is inferior as God's Son and servant.(consistently)ONLY to Jah though,he's above everyone else.(1 cor 15:27,28)I think the most exalted appointed king of the Most High God deserves sacred service and obeisance.(even less important earthly kings had these things) Worship means all kinds of things .You don't know him if you think he IS the same being as the one HE worships,supplicating with his face to the ground!His will was even different and so he had to beg for it to conform.
Trinitarians think God has a God.Amazing.I think one of the problems trinitarians have is reconciling the fact that Jesus has SO much power but yet isn't God.But think of all the things the OT reps and the NT disciples accomplished due to his spirit being upon them.Then multiply that by whatever number because Jesus is the greatest of all his messengers for obvious reasons,but you STILL have a messenger and someone GIVEN their power,any which way you cut it.(john 3:34,6:57,7:16,17,28-30,8:16,26,col 1:3)
I have a page I want to recommend for understanding the whole agent/principle thing.Just read under "AGENCY"
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47287
Jehovah will continue to use Jesus as his chief agent in EVERYTHING.Saving,building and maintaining a kingdom,holding together a new creation,judging,resurrecting,you name it.(John 14:6,1 cor 8:6,rev 1:1,John 5:19,27,heb 1:2,acts 2:36,2 Cor. 5:17,18,Dan. 7:13,14).
Not a single soul can find an instance where Jesus isn't given everything he has,from words to power etc.(have you read Matt,Mark,Luke and John lately?)And that to me is powerful proof indeed that not only is he not Jehovah,but that he depends upon him for his EVERY word deed and power.Now how in the world could anyone take that fact and think "Jesus is Jehovah"?!
John 13:16: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.(ahem..1 cor 15:27,28..use it or lose it ;)
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
John 5: 43-44: I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
One last trinitarian objection I will address..John 12:41 talks about Isaiah seeing Jesus glory but Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory in Isaiah 6:1 so Jesus must be Jehovah!!
Cotext,context,context
Now Isaiah spoke about Jesus all through Isaiah ch 52 and 53 and the glory as represented by his suffering and resurrection.And according to context John ch 12(vs 23 & 37,38 to name just a couple) IS talking about Isaiah chs 52 &53...THAT is WHEN Isaiah spoke about Jesus..he didn't speak about Jesus in Isaiah ch 6...He did see a manifestation or a representation of Yahweh in Isaiah 6 though.Yahweh is the one who gave him the words TO SAY about Jesus in the 52nd and 53rd chapter.
Iaiah 52:10: LORD has bared his holy arm(that would be Jesus) in the sight of all the nations; All the ends of the earth will behold the salvation of our God...13:See, my servant shall prosper, he shall be raised high and greatly exalted
Isaiah 53:1:Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (is 51:9)
4:Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5:But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
11:After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
See also John 2:11:Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.(so glory is revealed in MANY ways..see also..John 11:4,1 Peter 1:11)
further explanation for this from this website:
http://www.scripturaltruths.com
Which says:
Isaiah saw the glory of the Messiah in his work.It was this work that was truly his glory. He lived, suffered and died, by which he “bore the sins of many,” (Isa. 53:12) resulting in our salvation.
As John points out, Isaiah himself had a basic understanding of this astounding unfaith. Isaiah experienced unbelieving rejection in his own ministry, but even more he saw Jesus’ glory [death/resurrection] and spoke about him."
When we consider John 12 we find that Isaiah 53:1 is quoted and is the primary text in view, whereas the passage from Isaiah 6 is cited to only further explain this primary text."
Jehovah isn't selfish in the allowance of his agents to bear strength and glory!However,he will never allow false idols or false gods to do so..which is the context the texts about him sharing his glory with no one should be viewed in light of..the surrounding events.And those were that people were praising graven images etc.Also,the texts about Yah being the only God and savior should be viewed in light of this context,as others ARE properly termed gods and saviors.Jesus is the chief inheritor of the greatest blessings of Jah.We live because of his sufferings,and so why,again,WOULDN'T Jah reward him for THAT?!
What does the spirit of the antichrist confess?That Jesus never came in the flesh and that he never died and was raised?
Don't trinitarians believe that Jesus was 100% God AS WELL as 100% flesh.Can God be flesh?(num 23:19,rom 1:23)And where does the bible say he was 100 percent God on top of that 100 percent flesh?(1 cor 15:21)I only see that he was flesh .(1 tim 2:5)Trinitarians also believe Jesus as "God the son" never died.Guess what?Jesus died,and not just a flesh capsule of his.Is Jesus REALLY 2 natures..because the trinitarian numbers add up to 200 percent.(trinitarians employ "voodoo" mathematics ;)The bible makes clear that Jesus,ALL of him,the ACTUAL PERSON of him died.For three whole days.If someone has proof otherwise,bring it on.And if your proof is that his spirit went to God then I urge you to look up the definition of that word used for spirit and realize that happens to everyone at death.(Luke 23:46).Is no one really dead?And what is up with the whole resurrection thing if not?(acts 24:15)And why are the dead described by Jesus as sleeping?(John 11:11)And the bible as having no thoughts etc.?(ecc 9:5,10)Spirit can mean life(pneuma ),and when we die our future life prospects,clearly,are given back to Jehovah.(ps 146:4)Who can restore "the breath of life" to us just as he did to Jesus upon OUR resurrection.(gen 2:7)I keep emphasizing these points because if someone is willing to be honest with scripture and self,one MUST admit Jesus died and therefore cannot be God.And that if anyone doesn't believe Jesus REALLY DIED for us(ALL OF HIM),he is hazardously confessing a "different Jesus".(2 cor 11:3,4..apostasy started way back even then!)Did anyone in the bible who was resurrected ever mention the torment they had burning alive or the bliss they had in heaven before they were brought back??Wonder why that is?Death means lack of breath,thinking ability,speech,you name it..Anything beyond that is not biblical.Dead can be brought BACK to life.(1 cor 15:40)It's basic truth.Are you maybe just reasoning through a "what you've always been taught" kind of lens?(mark 7:13)I hope upon further prayerful examination and meditation you will consider that Jesus was REALLY flesh when he came to the earth,which rules out the ability to be God.(Is 31:3,1 tim 6:16.John 4:24)And that he was REALLY dead for three days,not alive.Otherwise,again,you have been taught "another Jesus" than that which the bible declares(1 tim 1:3).No death,no atonement.Death of only one nature of 2,unbiblical.(mark 8:31,col 2:8)And not a real *death* according to the bible's own definition of the word!
I don't agree with all this person believes but I found this page interesting..check it out!(I've never seen anyone put Jesus on a witness stand in a blog before.)
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html
Interestingly enough,trinitarians oft say that only God would be good enough to have died to remove our sin from us,yet they say God didn't die,just his human nature.But by that very reasoning,wouldn't his human nature alone not have been good enough?
**Matt 27:62-64:'**He**(a person,not just a flesh capsule that once had a person in it) has risen from the dead
**Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
**Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades.(Jesus)
**John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”
**John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”
**Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)
**The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:16)
**Hebrews 5:7 "As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God".
I for one can't appreciate the philosophical spin trinitarians put on who Jehovah and Jesus are.(1 cor 8:6,John 17:3)
Another objection:Jesus is given God's name so he must be God.(John 17:11)First of all if someone is given something he isn't the one who gave it.Just like if someone is representing someone else(I don't care how perfectly) that person cannot be the one they represent.Being in the form of someone ALSO excludes the possibility that you are that someone.(trinity "proof" texts usually refute themselves.)
Jesus LITERALLY means "Jehovah is salvation" so everytime you are calling upon Jesus name you are calling on Jehovah's.(For those of you who think it is unuterrable and too holy to be recognized.)There's a new name given to all sons if God.(rev 14:1)Jehovah's name is said to be in his agents.(ex 23:20,21)As his agents of message deliverance and salvation(in Jesus case) they bear his name..His name is his will.And he uses his agents to "cause whatever he wills to become."His name means "he causes to become".So whoever he uses to cause his will to take place,bear his name.(ex 7:1)That simple.Whomever he uses become "as God' and whomever he speaks through,CAN be termed "Yahweh" as his word if Yahweh so wills.THE AGENT BEARS THE NAME OF THE PRINCIPLE.(especially if they are chief agent or specially favored,as would the Angel of Yah and Jesus have been..)This is typical in Hebrew times!And a Hebrew truth that trinitarians haven't recognized,at least not in the case of Jesus.His agents are even "proskuneo'd" to his glory,not just Jesus.Those who did recognized who it REALLY was they were honoring,as his representatives and appointed kings etc.As lords and gods.(yes,real lords and gods..there should be no implication here that these common titles mean Sovereign Lord Most High of the universe).Clearly,Jah is one.And he means one..not triune,which doesn't mean one.I would like to make perfectly clear that God makes perfectly clear his singularity,nor does he shy away from saying "I am God.Worship me"..something Jesus neva eva said.However he did say a lot of things that proved he was inferior,and not because he is Godman,but because he is inferior as God's Son and servant.(consistently)ONLY to Jah though,he's above everyone else.(1 cor 15:27,28)I think the most exalted appointed king of the Most High God deserves sacred service and obeisance.(even less important earthly kings had these things) Worship means all kinds of things .You don't know him if you think he IS the same being as the one HE worships,supplicating with his face to the ground!His will was even different and so he had to beg for it to conform.
Trinitarians think God has a God.Amazing.I think one of the problems trinitarians have is reconciling the fact that Jesus has SO much power but yet isn't God.But think of all the things the OT reps and the NT disciples accomplished due to his spirit being upon them.Then multiply that by whatever number because Jesus is the greatest of all his messengers for obvious reasons,but you STILL have a messenger and someone GIVEN their power,any which way you cut it.(john 3:34,6:57,7:16,17,28-30,8:16,26,col 1:3)
I have a page I want to recommend for understanding the whole agent/principle thing.Just read under "AGENCY"
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47287
Jehovah will continue to use Jesus as his chief agent in EVERYTHING.Saving,building and maintaining a kingdom,holding together a new creation,judging,resurrecting,you name it.(John 14:6,1 cor 8:6,rev 1:1,John 5:19,27,heb 1:2,acts 2:36,2 Cor. 5:17,18,Dan. 7:13,14).
Not a single soul can find an instance where Jesus isn't given everything he has,from words to power etc.(have you read Matt,Mark,Luke and John lately?)And that to me is powerful proof indeed that not only is he not Jehovah,but that he depends upon him for his EVERY word deed and power.Now how in the world could anyone take that fact and think "Jesus is Jehovah"?!
John 13:16: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.(ahem..1 cor 15:27,28..use it or lose it ;)
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
John 5: 43-44: I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
One last trinitarian objection I will address..John 12:41 talks about Isaiah seeing Jesus glory but Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory in Isaiah 6:1 so Jesus must be Jehovah!!
Cotext,context,context
Now Isaiah spoke about Jesus all through Isaiah ch 52 and 53 and the glory as represented by his suffering and resurrection.And according to context John ch 12(vs 23 & 37,38 to name just a couple) IS talking about Isaiah chs 52 &53...THAT is WHEN Isaiah spoke about Jesus..he didn't speak about Jesus in Isaiah ch 6...He did see a manifestation or a representation of Yahweh in Isaiah 6 though.Yahweh is the one who gave him the words TO SAY about Jesus in the 52nd and 53rd chapter.
Iaiah 52:10: LORD has bared his holy arm(that would be Jesus) in the sight of all the nations; All the ends of the earth will behold the salvation of our God...13:See, my servant shall prosper, he shall be raised high and greatly exalted
Isaiah 53:1:Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (is 51:9)
4:Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5:But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
11:After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
See also John 2:11:Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.(so glory is revealed in MANY ways..see also..John 11:4,1 Peter 1:11)
further explanation for this from this website:
http://www.scripturaltruths.com
Which says:
Isaiah saw the glory of the Messiah in his work.It was this work that was truly his glory. He lived, suffered and died, by which he “bore the sins of many,” (Isa. 53:12) resulting in our salvation.
As John points out, Isaiah himself had a basic understanding of this astounding unfaith. Isaiah experienced unbelieving rejection in his own ministry, but even more he saw Jesus’ glory [death/resurrection] and spoke about him."
When we consider John 12 we find that Isaiah 53:1 is quoted and is the primary text in view, whereas the passage from Isaiah 6 is cited to only further explain this primary text."
Jehovah isn't selfish in the allowance of his agents to bear strength and glory!However,he will never allow false idols or false gods to do so..which is the context the texts about him sharing his glory with no one should be viewed in light of..the surrounding events.And those were that people were praising graven images etc.Also,the texts about Yah being the only God and savior should be viewed in light of this context,as others ARE properly termed gods and saviors.Jesus is the chief inheritor of the greatest blessings of Jah.We live because of his sufferings,and so why,again,WOULDN'T Jah reward him for THAT?!
Monday, February 9, 2009
Reasoning with trinitarians.
What I have heard one too many times:
There can only be one first and last!.....If the same words or phrases are used of both it has to mean Jesus is God!
Let's say (and I am TERRIBLE AT THIS but a girl's gotta try)I open the first vegetarian restaurant in my hometown.And the last one,there will be no others.I could be called the first and the last to have done so.If I hired someone first who then hired everyone else FOR ME afterward (using my standards of qualification of course and hey,I'm STILL boss)he /she could be called the first and the last as well.The first person hired directly by me and the last hired directly by me.
I addressed this in another blog ,so I'll make it quick.Look at context..he was dead then alive(first resurrected by God directly)and the last directly by God because look!Jesus was GIVEN the key to resurrect others.(and yes revelation makes it clear by context that this is the most true interpretation,as a diff application)Once again,being USED by God and being bestowed with privileges by God. Also,they are both first and last of their kind.Jehovah is the first and last Almighty God and Jesus is the first and last unique only begotten chief messenger son of God.Also,Jesus is the first new creation of God and the last to be directly created by God alone since every other new creation is IN Christ Jesus as the one who holds it together by power from God.So,yep,diff applications,same terminology.Jah is clever like that.
If you took two similar people,say a father and a son(how convenient) and a book as big as the bible was written about them both,I bet you would find all kinds of similarities,especially if they worked together on everything and had the same jobs and purposes in life,Sharing the same morals and home ,you name it.And if you isolated the words or truths that could be applied to both,you might even think they were the same human being,but would that make it so?And if one was called son and one was called the father of that son,and let's say someone worked for them,and they both held positions higher than that someone,would it mean that the father and the son are the same person and boss?
Same terminology,different applications.
Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings(Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14),of which it SOUNDS like there could be only one!Melchizedeck is said to have no beginning or end of days or priesthood,which SOUNDS like that would be unique to him.But bible readers are aware the same is said of Christ's kingship and priesthood.The bible says that God is Jesus throne(which means he upholds Christ's kingship,as the appointer and statute giver) but that is also said of David and we know from revelation that the anointed members of Christ's bride are to sit up on that same throne!(see also 1 kings 2:24 and 1 chron 29:23)Jesus' disciples ,like Christ, were called "the light of the world." (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) Hebrews is a book that commonly uses OT passages and applies them to Jesus.Passages that formerly applied to David,Solomon and Jehovah.IF you are going to use the standards you want to use as a trinitarian,are you REALLY being fair?Is saying "well ,David and Solomon foreshadowed Christ so it isn't the same thing" a good reason to be bias here?No.Because the same texts are applied to both for the same reasons the ones about Jah are applied to Jesus...DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS AND FULFILLMENTS and pertaining to BOTH in different ways ..that simple.In other words,to be fair and unbiased ,if you are going to assume Jesus is Jehovah by this reasoning,then you MUST assume Jesus is David and Solomon,unless you're simply unwilling to be unbiased.If someone is wondering what I am talking about ..compare these texts :)..(ps 102:25-27, heb 1:10-12,ps 2:7,2 sam 7:14,heb 1:5,ps 22:22,heb2:12,ps 45:6-7,heb 1:9-10)To put it very simply,the words could be said of both because Christ was used by Jah to fulfill all things.So it is true in a different way for Jesus than it is for Jehovah,yet still true.
examine the following:
Exodus 12:51:And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.
Deuteronomy 32:12:The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him
Exodus 15:22:So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur
Does this mean that since Jehovah accomplished this ALONE that Moses is Jehovah?OR is Jehovah allowed credit for what his servants accomplish?And how do his servants accomplish these things?(John 5:27, John 17:2)Fortunately,the bible always helps us understand these sorts of things,with clarification in other texts(Psalm 77:20)
Jah clarified that He saved using(and by means of) Jesus :)(John 3:16)
also compare:
Exodus 7:17:God [now] says, 'Through this you will know that I am God.' I will strike the water of the Nile with the staff in my hand, and [the water] will turn into blood.
Exodus 7:19,20:[Aaron] held the staff up, and then struck the Nile's water in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials. The Nile's water was transformed into blood.
Self explanatory.
Also compare..
2 Sam reads 24:1 :"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."
1 Chron 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."
Satan and Jehovah are attributed with THE SAME THING..does it make them the same person?
See also:
Matthew 4:10:Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY
1 Chronicles 29:20:Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.
and..
1 Kings 1:23:And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
Sometimes "proskeneo"(worship,bow down,obeisance etc) is appropriate when given to others besides Jehovah..if you don't like it take it up with him.It's RELATIVE "worship.".Proskeneo can mean a number of things and it is applied and accepted a # of times by a number of people.Trinitarians would like to believe this isn't the case..at least from my communication with them..they assume it is the same for Jesus and Jehovah and when anyone else is,it has to mean something else.And I say when it is given to ANYONE besides Jehovah,it means it is to his glory..as the one who appoints certain people to power and allows others to have dominion.If Jesus did anything that wasn't to the glory of his father,prove it.He acknowledged his father's superiority (even AFTER his ascension to heaven) and his reliance upon him at all times.I would venture to say that if you worship Jesus AS Almighty Jehovah God,you're doing something scripture does not tell you to do.Jesus is the second most high over all the universe,STILL second to God.(And NOT because he is in subordination as a wife would be to a husband but because NO ONE is equal to God..not even the one he MADE king,Lord,and firstborn..Acts 2:36,Ps. 89:27,1 Cor 15:27,28)Sons have NEVER not been given life by their fathers.Neva eva.So do trinitarians REALLY know Jesus?
If Jesus is used as the wisdom ,word ,agent and representative of God then yep you better believe they can both be called a lot of the same titles etc.
I dare anybody to find me a privilege,a special power,a glory,a single holy word that Jesus was not given from his own God and father.And if he was given what he has from his God and father,then couldn't it be said that the same titles and phrases would obviously be used for both?And couldn't the scriptures applied to Jah in the OT that are then applied to Jesus in the NT signify either different fulfillments OR just said of either because Jesus is Jah's word,chief messenger,and agent.(THROUGH whom he holds the world together and makes it new,judges,teaches,saves etc)??Keep in mind Jesus is his father's heir to a kingdom,so OF COURSE he is mighty and shares the SAME privileges,but it still doesn't make him the "same being" as the one who gave those to him.When Jehovah in the OT was talking about not sharing his glory etc. ,when you look at context(which is important,no?)he is defending himself as superior to false gods and idols and as the SOURCE of everything and everyone else,even Jesus!Which only makes sense since sons do not exist as the literal same perso"being" or God that their father is.And comparing the equality of a human son to a human father,despite subordination,is not the same as comparing a son of God to God because God is not human and is infinitely greater than everyone.(matt 19:17,john 14:28,john 20:17)Jesus is second in command(does Jah REALLY need to qualify EVERY TIME it says Jesus is above everyone and greater than everything that it is with the exception of the one who made that so??(1 cor 15:27,28),and I am not negating him..He's glad to be there.(John 13:16,John 5:30-32,Rev 1:1)
I'm going to encourage trinitarians to pray to Jehovah and talk to him only for once without even acknowleging Jesus until you are finished and then requesting everything in the name of Jesus..just ONCE to see how it feels.I'm not suggesting you don't acknowledge Jesus in prayer..Sometimes I appeal to and talk to him earnestly and wholeheartedly..I'm just asking you please see if you can't try to distinguish the two in a reasonable way,always requesting a spirit of understanding.(1 tim 2:5,John 14:6,matt 6:9-13)<--go to WHOM ultimately,through whom?Who is the one to ultimately be reached?I am addressing those who only know Jesus and assume that is the totality and end of worship.
Jesus is the way to God yes,the mediator..Does that mean we go to Jesus and stop there or that we reach Jehovah THROUGH him.In other words,isn't reaching Jehovah important in the whole picture?And how can we reach him whom we ignore in favor of only being attentive to our relationship with his appointed king and mediator?(who,mind you,prayed rigorously to and relied upon the same God we should,JAH!)Remember,God is jealous and wants us to use his provisions and understand we are too unholy to reach him without that sacrifice but we are able to now by means of that sacrifice.Take advantage!Jehovah wants you to talk to him and recognize him by means of his beloved Amen.If the mediator is a door to something,isn't the destination to be appreciated and desired?Shouldn't you be reaching both?And the word both alone implies two of something.And two means two.(I love discussing mathematics with trinitarians..who apparently think Jehovah is a times table)There is one Jesus Christ and one Jehovah God and they are not the same God.(1 cor 8:6)Jehovah is allowed to appoint kings and dispense power and give inheritances where he will.And we are to freely give a ton of honor to his most important appointed king,while yet recognizing that Christ is NOT in the same God as the one who bestowed upon him these tremendous blessings.It's common sense,no offense.That doesn't mean the ones he gives these things to literally become him.Just like the disciples won't become Christ even though they are one with him and will share the same responsibilities and glories and throne.(John 17:22,Revelation 2:27,28,Rev 3:21,5:10)
Are you aware one reason why Jehovah had to proclaim his singularity in the OT so much?Besides the fact that there were so many false gods being worshipped,but many of them were triune!From the time of Nimrod,Semaramis,and Tammuz on.When Nimrod died and people wanted someone else to venerate Tammuz(his son) was worshipped as "God the son"!<--THAT's where that phrase originated,NOT from the bible.All triune gods originated from those three in some way.As you can imagine,this had to be most appalling to Jah!I am thinking this is one reason he had to emphasize his singularity.He is defending himself from these triune notions(and other false ones),crying out to you from his holy word!LISTEN.(deut 6:4,psalm 83:18)
Exploring all this I get a little more peeved at the removal of the divine name thousands of times shamelessly from bible translations.Is man's superstition more important than Jehovah's commands?The appalling removal IMO has helped lead to the trinity doctrine.Since Yahweh is called Lord and God almost 7000 times instead of Yahweh,as was in the original texts,people associate common titles(1 cor 8:5) with Jah more than his personal name and so even subconsciously when they see Jesus being called Lord or even a couple times God (possibly...it's certainly debatable) they automatically think Almighty.I'm not suggesting that is the only reason people believe in it but it can't help!I find it personally disturbing that Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation translators are much maligned for inserting the divine name where 200 times (even though I agree they shouldn't have!)in the New Testament but everyone else gets a "get out of jail free" card for removing it almost 7000.(ex 3:15,Ps 145:21,matt 6:9,micah 4:5)
There can only be one first and last!.....If the same words or phrases are used of both it has to mean Jesus is God!
Let's say (and I am TERRIBLE AT THIS but a girl's gotta try)I open the first vegetarian restaurant in my hometown.And the last one,there will be no others.I could be called the first and the last to have done so.If I hired someone first who then hired everyone else FOR ME afterward (using my standards of qualification of course and hey,I'm STILL boss)he /she could be called the first and the last as well.The first person hired directly by me and the last hired directly by me.
I addressed this in another blog ,so I'll make it quick.Look at context..he was dead then alive(first resurrected by God directly)and the last directly by God because look!Jesus was GIVEN the key to resurrect others.(and yes revelation makes it clear by context that this is the most true interpretation,as a diff application)Once again,being USED by God and being bestowed with privileges by God. Also,they are both first and last of their kind.Jehovah is the first and last Almighty God and Jesus is the first and last unique only begotten chief messenger son of God.Also,Jesus is the first new creation of God and the last to be directly created by God alone since every other new creation is IN Christ Jesus as the one who holds it together by power from God.So,yep,diff applications,same terminology.Jah is clever like that.
If you took two similar people,say a father and a son(how convenient) and a book as big as the bible was written about them both,I bet you would find all kinds of similarities,especially if they worked together on everything and had the same jobs and purposes in life,Sharing the same morals and home ,you name it.And if you isolated the words or truths that could be applied to both,you might even think they were the same human being,but would that make it so?And if one was called son and one was called the father of that son,and let's say someone worked for them,and they both held positions higher than that someone,would it mean that the father and the son are the same person and boss?
Same terminology,different applications.
Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings(Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14),of which it SOUNDS like there could be only one!Melchizedeck is said to have no beginning or end of days or priesthood,which SOUNDS like that would be unique to him.But bible readers are aware the same is said of Christ's kingship and priesthood.The bible says that God is Jesus throne(which means he upholds Christ's kingship,as the appointer and statute giver) but that is also said of David and we know from revelation that the anointed members of Christ's bride are to sit up on that same throne!(see also 1 kings 2:24 and 1 chron 29:23)Jesus' disciples ,like Christ, were called "the light of the world." (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) Hebrews is a book that commonly uses OT passages and applies them to Jesus.Passages that formerly applied to David,Solomon and Jehovah.IF you are going to use the standards you want to use as a trinitarian,are you REALLY being fair?Is saying "well ,David and Solomon foreshadowed Christ so it isn't the same thing" a good reason to be bias here?No.Because the same texts are applied to both for the same reasons the ones about Jah are applied to Jesus...DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS AND FULFILLMENTS and pertaining to BOTH in different ways ..that simple.In other words,to be fair and unbiased ,if you are going to assume Jesus is Jehovah by this reasoning,then you MUST assume Jesus is David and Solomon,unless you're simply unwilling to be unbiased.If someone is wondering what I am talking about ..compare these texts :)..(ps 102:25-27, heb 1:10-12,ps 2:7,2 sam 7:14,heb 1:5,ps 22:22,heb2:12,ps 45:6-7,heb 1:9-10)To put it very simply,the words could be said of both because Christ was used by Jah to fulfill all things.So it is true in a different way for Jesus than it is for Jehovah,yet still true.
examine the following:
Exodus 12:51:And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.
Deuteronomy 32:12:The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him
Exodus 15:22:So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur
Does this mean that since Jehovah accomplished this ALONE that Moses is Jehovah?OR is Jehovah allowed credit for what his servants accomplish?And how do his servants accomplish these things?(John 5:27, John 17:2)Fortunately,the bible always helps us understand these sorts of things,with clarification in other texts(Psalm 77:20)
Jah clarified that He saved using(and by means of) Jesus :)(John 3:16)
also compare:
Exodus 7:17:God [now] says, 'Through this you will know that I am God.' I will strike the water of the Nile with the staff in my hand, and [the water] will turn into blood.
Exodus 7:19,20:[Aaron] held the staff up, and then struck the Nile's water in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials. The Nile's water was transformed into blood.
Self explanatory.
Also compare..
2 Sam reads 24:1 :"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."
1 Chron 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."
Satan and Jehovah are attributed with THE SAME THING..does it make them the same person?
See also:
Matthew 4:10:Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY
1 Chronicles 29:20:Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.
and..
1 Kings 1:23:And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
Sometimes "proskeneo"(worship,bow down,obeisance etc) is appropriate when given to others besides Jehovah..if you don't like it take it up with him.It's RELATIVE "worship.".Proskeneo can mean a number of things and it is applied and accepted a # of times by a number of people.Trinitarians would like to believe this isn't the case..at least from my communication with them..they assume it is the same for Jesus and Jehovah and when anyone else is,it has to mean something else.And I say when it is given to ANYONE besides Jehovah,it means it is to his glory..as the one who appoints certain people to power and allows others to have dominion.If Jesus did anything that wasn't to the glory of his father,prove it.He acknowledged his father's superiority (even AFTER his ascension to heaven) and his reliance upon him at all times.I would venture to say that if you worship Jesus AS Almighty Jehovah God,you're doing something scripture does not tell you to do.Jesus is the second most high over all the universe,STILL second to God.(And NOT because he is in subordination as a wife would be to a husband but because NO ONE is equal to God..not even the one he MADE king,Lord,and firstborn..Acts 2:36,Ps. 89:27,1 Cor 15:27,28)Sons have NEVER not been given life by their fathers.Neva eva.So do trinitarians REALLY know Jesus?
If Jesus is used as the wisdom ,word ,agent and representative of God then yep you better believe they can both be called a lot of the same titles etc.
I dare anybody to find me a privilege,a special power,a glory,a single holy word that Jesus was not given from his own God and father.And if he was given what he has from his God and father,then couldn't it be said that the same titles and phrases would obviously be used for both?And couldn't the scriptures applied to Jah in the OT that are then applied to Jesus in the NT signify either different fulfillments OR just said of either because Jesus is Jah's word,chief messenger,and agent.(THROUGH whom he holds the world together and makes it new,judges,teaches,saves etc)??Keep in mind Jesus is his father's heir to a kingdom,so OF COURSE he is mighty and shares the SAME privileges,but it still doesn't make him the "same being" as the one who gave those to him.When Jehovah in the OT was talking about not sharing his glory etc. ,when you look at context(which is important,no?)he is defending himself as superior to false gods and idols and as the SOURCE of everything and everyone else,even Jesus!Which only makes sense since sons do not exist as the literal same perso"being" or God that their father is.And comparing the equality of a human son to a human father,despite subordination,is not the same as comparing a son of God to God because God is not human and is infinitely greater than everyone.(matt 19:17,john 14:28,john 20:17)Jesus is second in command(does Jah REALLY need to qualify EVERY TIME it says Jesus is above everyone and greater than everything that it is with the exception of the one who made that so??(1 cor 15:27,28),and I am not negating him..He's glad to be there.(John 13:16,John 5:30-32,Rev 1:1)
I'm going to encourage trinitarians to pray to Jehovah and talk to him only for once without even acknowleging Jesus until you are finished and then requesting everything in the name of Jesus..just ONCE to see how it feels.I'm not suggesting you don't acknowledge Jesus in prayer..Sometimes I appeal to and talk to him earnestly and wholeheartedly..I'm just asking you please see if you can't try to distinguish the two in a reasonable way,always requesting a spirit of understanding.(1 tim 2:5,John 14:6,matt 6:9-13)<--go to WHOM ultimately,through whom?Who is the one to ultimately be reached?I am addressing those who only know Jesus and assume that is the totality and end of worship.
Jesus is the way to God yes,the mediator..Does that mean we go to Jesus and stop there or that we reach Jehovah THROUGH him.In other words,isn't reaching Jehovah important in the whole picture?And how can we reach him whom we ignore in favor of only being attentive to our relationship with his appointed king and mediator?(who,mind you,prayed rigorously to and relied upon the same God we should,JAH!)Remember,God is jealous and wants us to use his provisions and understand we are too unholy to reach him without that sacrifice but we are able to now by means of that sacrifice.Take advantage!Jehovah wants you to talk to him and recognize him by means of his beloved Amen.If the mediator is a door to something,isn't the destination to be appreciated and desired?Shouldn't you be reaching both?And the word both alone implies two of something.And two means two.(I love discussing mathematics with trinitarians..who apparently think Jehovah is a times table)There is one Jesus Christ and one Jehovah God and they are not the same God.(1 cor 8:6)Jehovah is allowed to appoint kings and dispense power and give inheritances where he will.And we are to freely give a ton of honor to his most important appointed king,while yet recognizing that Christ is NOT in the same God as the one who bestowed upon him these tremendous blessings.It's common sense,no offense.That doesn't mean the ones he gives these things to literally become him.Just like the disciples won't become Christ even though they are one with him and will share the same responsibilities and glories and throne.(John 17:22,Revelation 2:27,28,Rev 3:21,5:10)
Are you aware one reason why Jehovah had to proclaim his singularity in the OT so much?Besides the fact that there were so many false gods being worshipped,but many of them were triune!From the time of Nimrod,Semaramis,and Tammuz on.When Nimrod died and people wanted someone else to venerate Tammuz(his son) was worshipped as "God the son"!<--THAT's where that phrase originated,NOT from the bible.All triune gods originated from those three in some way.As you can imagine,this had to be most appalling to Jah!I am thinking this is one reason he had to emphasize his singularity.He is defending himself from these triune notions(and other false ones),crying out to you from his holy word!LISTEN.(deut 6:4,psalm 83:18)
Exploring all this I get a little more peeved at the removal of the divine name thousands of times shamelessly from bible translations.Is man's superstition more important than Jehovah's commands?The appalling removal IMO has helped lead to the trinity doctrine.Since Yahweh is called Lord and God almost 7000 times instead of Yahweh,as was in the original texts,people associate common titles(1 cor 8:5) with Jah more than his personal name and so even subconsciously when they see Jesus being called Lord or even a couple times God (possibly...it's certainly debatable) they automatically think Almighty.I'm not suggesting that is the only reason people believe in it but it can't help!I find it personally disturbing that Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation translators are much maligned for inserting the divine name where 200 times (even though I agree they shouldn't have!)in the New Testament but everyone else gets a "get out of jail free" card for removing it almost 7000.(ex 3:15,Ps 145:21,matt 6:9,micah 4:5)
Friday, January 30, 2009
Is the holy spirit Almighty God?
The holy spirit is poured out onto and inside Christ's and Jehovah's followers.It impregnated Mary and appeared as a dove and a flame.It is repeatedly said to be "of God" (Gen. 1:2)and "of Christ" so obviously it is something they can own or that we can own in whatever measure God allows or permits.(Heb. 2:4)In other words,all these facts would be inconsistent with calling the holy spirit Almighty God.It IS however consistent with claiming that it is an active force,an exercised power,that Jehovah uses to accomplish his every will,from creation to blessing,from helping followers recall scripture to displaying fruits in the lives of Christians.It is what makes God omniscient in that his holy spirit can be anywhere all at once and in whatever measure accomplishing anything because it is controlled by it's possessor Jehovah.For example,if Jehovah wanted to heal someone of something,he could send forth HIS holy spirit and it could be done automatically.Not because the holy spirit IS Jehovah,unless you're willing to believe God takes the form of doves(then we have a dove god on our hands)and enters us(God possession?)..It is never given a personal name,because it isn't a person.IT is personified on occasion with "he" and "speaks" grieves" etc because sometimes in scripture things or aspects etc. are personified (also because it IS "of God",HIS and therefore sometimes rightfully personified in relation TO him)..Here are a few examples of non-people being personified(it's not uncommon):
**Luke 7:35-Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."
**Romans 7:8:But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
**Rom 5:14,21-death reigned from Adam to Moses21just as sin ruled by bringing death, so also grace might rule by bringing justification that results in eternal life through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord.
**1 John 5:6-8- water and blood bear witness too
**I Cor. 12:15,16-If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body.... And if the ear shall say, because I am not of the body .
**Psa. 96:11,12-Let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad. …let the field be joyful . . then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
**Isa. 55:12-the mountains and hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees shall clap their hands
There are many more examples than that,just making a point.
When angels would speak Jah's messages as his messengers..they didn't enter or possess people..thay appeared before them.They can be SEEN AS ANGELS..When has the holy spirit ever been seen as a person or given a personal name?By trinitarian standards,wisdom,knowledge,trees,etc would all be people because they are sometimes ,even though inanimate, given personification in a poetic way.This isn't to say however that something as extraordinary as Yah's very spirit isn't personal.It is his VERY personal outreach!
So what is the holy spirit exactly?
*Genesis 1:2- Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
*John 14:17-Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
*God anointed [Jesus] with holy spirit and power(Acts 10:38)
**Romans 8: 9-You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
**Romans 8:14-because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God
*John 3:8-The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit<--wind felt not seen
compare to:
*Job 33:4-The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life
*1 Corinthians 12:3-3:Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
**Luke 11:20-But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.compare to:
*Matthew 12:28-But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you
The holy spirit is called the finger of God..Jesus is called the arm of God(figuratively),not that either (Jesus or the spirit)is a literal finger or arm,but this proves to me that Jehovah possesses(owns) them both(Jesus AND the spirit) and uses them to get his will done,or rather works by means of them.The difference is,Jesus has a personal name and an obvious identity as God's most beloved son.(Matthew 3:17)
So when the spirit IS seen is it ever seen as a person?And isn't it therefore a figurative or symbolic vision?Don't you think it is peculiar and precarious to assume it is a person without a name and form(where is he in heaven when Jehovah and Jesus are clearly pictured,repeatedly)?
Why when the apostles talked about Jesus and Jehovah in all those verses is the holy spirit RARELY mentioned in the same texts?(Acts 7:55,56)Wouldn't that be blasphemous and unheard of if the holy spirit is an equal almighty God?Why when Jehovah and Jesus are pictured in heaven(always distinct mind you) is there never a literal person of another equal Supreme being with them in the whole what should be a "trinity" setting??Even in most of the supposed trinity "proof" texts,the holy spirit is conspicuously absent.Where's the holy spirit in this equation?:
**I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Ultimately it is Jehovah ,by means of his holy spirit,speaking through his messengers and servants..what do you think Jesus meant when he said his words were not his own?Remember the dove descending upon him?God spoke THROUGH him BY MEANS of his spirit.(John 12:49)Therefore Jesus possesses it as well,more of it than any other servant of Jehovah!(John 3:34)Hence,as mediator,Jesus dispenses the spirit of God to true Christians and sincere seeekers as is seen fit.(Acts 10:45 )
So whenever you see "he" in relation to the holy spirit,remember that things that are not persons are poetically personified in scripture at times.And the holy spirit,being a force of the Almighty God,owned and operated by him,would be as well.That's when it is time to weigh the evidence and reason with the bible as a whole.Don't assume it is a person because it is personified sporadically..otherwise you are assuming something the whole of the bible fails to support and also recognizing wisdom and trees etc. must be people.(which I'm sure you don't)
***NOW for some points taken from a webpage that inspired this blog..these words are from the site below.(which is NOT affiliated with the Jehovah's Witnesses)
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d910201.htm
**Note how Paul and the other apostles consistently referred to the authority of the ones they represented in the opening salutation to their epistles. Look at what they state. "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; II Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; Phil. 1:2; Col. 1:2; 1 Thes. 1:1; II Thes. 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:2; II Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; II Pet. 1:2).
**Note that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit whatever in the introductions to these epistles. Other apostles show the same thing. James said he was "a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" (James 1:1) -- no mention of the Holy Spirit.
In I Corinthians 3:23 Christians are said to belong to Christ as he belongs to God — but nothing about anyone belonging to the Holy Spirit as though he were an equal personality too.
** In I Corinthians 15:28 Paul said all things would be subdued by Christ, and that Christ would in turn hand over all power to God the Father. But the Holy Spirit as a co-personality is not so much as mentioned in Paul’s account and in the figuring in of this transference of power and authority
**"Whither shall I go from thy Spirit" (Psa.139:7). It is God’s Spirit, not himself, which pervades the totality of the universe. God, as a personality and as an individual is in one place at one time and He is not (of himself as a personality) located everywhere at the same time throughout the universe That the Spirit can be everywhere at once like an electrical power that emanates from God. That is why the Spirit itself cannot be an individual or else it too would not be able to be everywhere at the same time. But if the Spirit is simply the power of God to accomplish his purposes, that Spirit can encompass at all times the totality of the universe.
**On the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s rising from the dead, the Bible says the Spirit came into all the disciples "as a rushing mighty wind" (Acts 2:2). It filled not only each of the persons in the house with spiritual power.If we understand that the Holy Spirit is simply the power of God (like some kind of electrical energy) to accomplish God’s purposes, all can become much more comprehensible and reasonable.
***NOW for a few points from "Insight on the scriptures" vol.2,a JW publication.
**Justin Martyr(2nd century ce) taught that the holy spirit "was an influence or a mode of operation of the deity".Not until the 4th century did it become church dogma.
*"In the name of the holy spirit" implies recognition of that spirit as having its source in God and as exercising its function according to the divine will.
*Further evidence against the idea of personality as regards the holy spirit is the way it is used in association with other impersonal things ,like water and fire (mt. 3:11,mark 1:9)(side note:I am no longer willing to call God's spirit "impersonal" since it is GOD's.Just because it isn't a separate person from him doesn't mean it's impersonal in that God is present with us by means of it!)
*Persons are spoken of as being "filled" with it along with such qualities as wisdom and faith(Acts 6:3,5,11:24)or joy(Acts 13:52).It is inserted in with a number of such qualities at 2 Cor 6:6
*While some texts refer to the spirit as "witnessing","speaking" or "saying" things ,other texts make it clear that it spoke THROUGH other persons having no personal voice of it's own(heb 3:7,10:15-17,ps 95:7,Jer 31:33,34,acts 19:2-6,21:4,28:25)
*Where a human craftsman would use the force of his hands and fingers to produce things,God uses his spirit.Hence that spirit is also spoken of as God's "hand" or "fingers"..(compare Ps. 8:3,19:1,Matthew 12:28 and Luke 11:20)
*Moses found his load of responsibility heavy so God "took away some of the spirit that was upon Moses and placed it upon 70 older men"so that they might help in carrying the load." (Numbers 1:11-17,24-30)
*It can be "poured out" fitting people for spiritual works like teaching,guiding,shepherding ,and counseling.It's fruitage is love,joy,peace,long suffering,kindness,mildness,goodness,self control and faith.(Gal 5:24-26,6:1,Acts 6:1-7,Ez 36:26,27)
And to summarize,the Insight book also points out that it is a free gift to sincere seekers,the right heart being a key factor.To disregard its leanings could be disastrous.It IS what God uses to move and direct Christians so to ignore it would essentially be to reject God.So when it is personified or when it "speaks" ect. it is obviously IN RELATION to its owner,Jehovah,THE Almighty.
**Luke 7:35-Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."
**Romans 7:8:But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
**Rom 5:14,21-death reigned from Adam to Moses21just as sin ruled by bringing death, so also grace might rule by bringing justification that results in eternal life through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord.
**1 John 5:6-8- water and blood bear witness too
**I Cor. 12:15,16-If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body.... And if the ear shall say, because I am not of the body .
**Psa. 96:11,12-Let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad. …let the field be joyful . . then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
**Isa. 55:12-the mountains and hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees shall clap their hands
There are many more examples than that,just making a point.
When angels would speak Jah's messages as his messengers..they didn't enter or possess people..thay appeared before them.They can be SEEN AS ANGELS..When has the holy spirit ever been seen as a person or given a personal name?By trinitarian standards,wisdom,knowledge,trees,etc would all be people because they are sometimes ,even though inanimate, given personification in a poetic way.This isn't to say however that something as extraordinary as Yah's very spirit isn't personal.It is his VERY personal outreach!
So what is the holy spirit exactly?
*Genesis 1:2- Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
*John 14:17-Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
*God anointed [Jesus] with holy spirit and power(Acts 10:38)
**Romans 8: 9-You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
**Romans 8:14-because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God
*John 3:8-The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit<--wind felt not seen
compare to:
*Job 33:4-The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life
*1 Corinthians 12:3-3:Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
**Luke 11:20-But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.compare to:
*Matthew 12:28-But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you
The holy spirit is called the finger of God..Jesus is called the arm of God(figuratively),not that either (Jesus or the spirit)is a literal finger or arm,but this proves to me that Jehovah possesses(owns) them both(Jesus AND the spirit) and uses them to get his will done,or rather works by means of them.The difference is,Jesus has a personal name and an obvious identity as God's most beloved son.(Matthew 3:17)
So when the spirit IS seen is it ever seen as a person?And isn't it therefore a figurative or symbolic vision?Don't you think it is peculiar and precarious to assume it is a person without a name and form(where is he in heaven when Jehovah and Jesus are clearly pictured,repeatedly)?
Why when the apostles talked about Jesus and Jehovah in all those verses is the holy spirit RARELY mentioned in the same texts?(Acts 7:55,56)Wouldn't that be blasphemous and unheard of if the holy spirit is an equal almighty God?Why when Jehovah and Jesus are pictured in heaven(always distinct mind you) is there never a literal person of another equal Supreme being with them in the whole what should be a "trinity" setting??Even in most of the supposed trinity "proof" texts,the holy spirit is conspicuously absent.Where's the holy spirit in this equation?:
**I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Ultimately it is Jehovah ,by means of his holy spirit,speaking through his messengers and servants..what do you think Jesus meant when he said his words were not his own?Remember the dove descending upon him?God spoke THROUGH him BY MEANS of his spirit.(John 12:49)Therefore Jesus possesses it as well,more of it than any other servant of Jehovah!(John 3:34)Hence,as mediator,Jesus dispenses the spirit of God to true Christians and sincere seeekers as is seen fit.(Acts 10:45 )
So whenever you see "he" in relation to the holy spirit,remember that things that are not persons are poetically personified in scripture at times.And the holy spirit,being a force of the Almighty God,owned and operated by him,would be as well.That's when it is time to weigh the evidence and reason with the bible as a whole.Don't assume it is a person because it is personified sporadically..otherwise you are assuming something the whole of the bible fails to support and also recognizing wisdom and trees etc. must be people.(which I'm sure you don't)
***NOW for some points taken from a webpage that inspired this blog..these words are from the site below.(which is NOT affiliated with the Jehovah's Witnesses)
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d910201.htm
**Note how Paul and the other apostles consistently referred to the authority of the ones they represented in the opening salutation to their epistles. Look at what they state. "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; II Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; Phil. 1:2; Col. 1:2; 1 Thes. 1:1; II Thes. 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:2; II Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; II Pet. 1:2).
**Note that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit whatever in the introductions to these epistles. Other apostles show the same thing. James said he was "a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" (James 1:1) -- no mention of the Holy Spirit.
In I Corinthians 3:23 Christians are said to belong to Christ as he belongs to God — but nothing about anyone belonging to the Holy Spirit as though he were an equal personality too.
** In I Corinthians 15:28 Paul said all things would be subdued by Christ, and that Christ would in turn hand over all power to God the Father. But the Holy Spirit as a co-personality is not so much as mentioned in Paul’s account and in the figuring in of this transference of power and authority
**"Whither shall I go from thy Spirit" (Psa.139:7). It is God’s Spirit, not himself, which pervades the totality of the universe. God, as a personality and as an individual is in one place at one time and He is not (of himself as a personality) located everywhere at the same time throughout the universe That the Spirit can be everywhere at once like an electrical power that emanates from God. That is why the Spirit itself cannot be an individual or else it too would not be able to be everywhere at the same time. But if the Spirit is simply the power of God to accomplish his purposes, that Spirit can encompass at all times the totality of the universe.
**On the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s rising from the dead, the Bible says the Spirit came into all the disciples "as a rushing mighty wind" (Acts 2:2). It filled not only each of the persons in the house with spiritual power.If we understand that the Holy Spirit is simply the power of God (like some kind of electrical energy) to accomplish God’s purposes, all can become much more comprehensible and reasonable.
***NOW for a few points from "Insight on the scriptures" vol.2,a JW publication.
**Justin Martyr(2nd century ce) taught that the holy spirit "was an influence or a mode of operation of the deity".Not until the 4th century did it become church dogma.
*"In the name of the holy spirit" implies recognition of that spirit as having its source in God and as exercising its function according to the divine will.
*Further evidence against the idea of personality as regards the holy spirit is the way it is used in association with other impersonal things ,like water and fire (mt. 3:11,mark 1:9)(side note:I am no longer willing to call God's spirit "impersonal" since it is GOD's.Just because it isn't a separate person from him doesn't mean it's impersonal in that God is present with us by means of it!)
*Persons are spoken of as being "filled" with it along with such qualities as wisdom and faith(Acts 6:3,5,11:24)or joy(Acts 13:52).It is inserted in with a number of such qualities at 2 Cor 6:6
*While some texts refer to the spirit as "witnessing","speaking" or "saying" things ,other texts make it clear that it spoke THROUGH other persons having no personal voice of it's own(heb 3:7,10:15-17,ps 95:7,Jer 31:33,34,acts 19:2-6,21:4,28:25)
*Where a human craftsman would use the force of his hands and fingers to produce things,God uses his spirit.Hence that spirit is also spoken of as God's "hand" or "fingers"..(compare Ps. 8:3,19:1,Matthew 12:28 and Luke 11:20)
*Moses found his load of responsibility heavy so God "took away some of the spirit that was upon Moses and placed it upon 70 older men"so that they might help in carrying the load." (Numbers 1:11-17,24-30)
*It can be "poured out" fitting people for spiritual works like teaching,guiding,shepherding ,and counseling.It's fruitage is love,joy,peace,long suffering,kindness,mildness,goodness,self control and faith.(Gal 5:24-26,6:1,Acts 6:1-7,Ez 36:26,27)
And to summarize,the Insight book also points out that it is a free gift to sincere seekers,the right heart being a key factor.To disregard its leanings could be disastrous.It IS what God uses to move and direct Christians so to ignore it would essentially be to reject God.So when it is personified or when it "speaks" ect. it is obviously IN RELATION to its owner,Jehovah,THE Almighty.
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