The Watchtower's "Faithful Slave"-a Few Concerns and Questions

Already blogged about this previously.This is that blog in a video form with a few minor adjustments.Hopefully there will be at least one or two little points within this that will make Jehovah's Witnesses think critically about governing body claims.Or that will help those who desire to reach JW's with the truth of Christ.

Responding to ex-Jehovah's Witness trinitarian Bibl3thumper's youtube video

I made a youtube video in response to ex-Jehovah's Witness youtube user Bibl3thumper's video where he asserts that the trinity,or rather the "deity of Christ", should be at the center of discussion with Jehovah's Witnesses.He didn't approve my video response,even going so far as to erase a comment on his video where I said I'd made a video response.I have seen Bibl3thumper engage others with whom he disagrees respectfully before,while NOT censoring them,so I didn't suspect that he'd resort to that.I would only understand resorting to that if someone had been hateful or disrespectful to you in some major way.Anyway,first is his video,then my two responses.Feel free to write me at biscuitpouncer@hotmail.com with any respectful concerns or questions.

Please,everyone,test all things and make sure of what is good,for many will come to you in sheep's clothing making claims that seem sound on the surface.That with just a little biblical reasoning are easily refuted and proven both shallow and inconsistent.Much like the Watchtower,"orthodoxy" has it's fair share of such claims.Ex Jehovah's Witnesses are extremely susceptible to deception(again) because they want to fit in somewhere again and are used to having it all laid out for them by men,reading certain ideas INTO the bible instead of gleaning the truth from scripture.They're used to reading what they've been handed by men INTO scripture,and that practice can absolutely be repeated after leaving the Watchtower with another false system of worship and ideas.

Jehovah's Witnesses:5 integral Kingdom Questions!

Question # 1:

In Genesis 13,verses 14-17,Abraham is told to look all around him at the land that would be his inheritance,as well as his ""offspring's" inheritance.

Galatians 3:29 says:

"If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

The Watchtower would say that those who are "Christ's" are the anointed who go to heaven.So how could it be that those in Galatians 3:29 who are "Christ's",and also "Abraham's offspring",will not be heirs according to the "promise" actually given to Abraham & his offspring?That being,the "land"?Are we REALLY to believe that "Abraham's offspring",also known as ""Christ's"(or the anointed) according to Galatians 3:29 will not get the precise inheritance promised them in Genesis 13?Is there a separation here of two vastly differing promises like the WT boldly claims or is it the same promises for the anointed and the OT faithful like the scriptures explicitly claim?




Question # 2:

Hebrews 11:16 says that there is a "heavenly country" and a "city" "prepared" for the OT patriarchs,who the Watchtower claims will inherit a "new earth."

Problem is,Revelation identifies this "city" as "New Jerusalem",which the Watchtower claims is only for an anointed 144,000 and no one else.Why would something be "prepared",namely a "heavenly country" for the Old Testament faithful, if they have no hope of actually attaining it?

Matthew 8:11 says:

"Many Gentiles will come from all over the world--from east and west--and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Again,the Watchtower says that "the kingdom of heaven" is reserved solely for 144,000 folks and NOT those who Matthew 8:11 says will actually be there.So question is:

On what basis did the Watchtower dogmatically determine that the "kingdom of heaven" won't be on the earth since the earth is actually promised to those who are said to be in the "kingdom of heaven" and the "kingdom of God"?This naturally leads to the next question.


Question # 3:


Daniel 7:27 says :

"Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms *under* the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High."

Here we have the saints inheriting a kingdom "under heaven",do we not?Is this not the kingdom of heaven?Is it possible the heavenly kingdom will manifest on earth for the saints?Won't the "new earth",promised the OT patriarchs and NT Christians alike,be "under heaven" according to Daniel here?

Could it be that the kingdom is "prepared" in heaven(1 Pet. 1:4,5) but will be "revealed" when it "comes down"?

Revelation 21:2 enlightens:

"I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, COMING DOWN out of heaven FROM God and prepared as a bride"

So is this "city" being "prepared" "coming down" TO us..or are people going up TO it?It descends to the earth for the patriarchs and the Christians who will receive the same promises according to texts like Romans 15:8,where Christ is said to have "confirmed" the promises made to the OT patriarchs also to the Christians in the body of Christ.

Even further confirmation in Acts 13:32:

"And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers"

According to Genesis 13:14-17..what WAS that "promise which was made to the fathers" that was ALSO "glad tidings" for the *anointed* brothers and sisters in Acts?In these clear and easy texts,isn't it the promises to the "fathers" and "patriarchs" that are confirmed for the "anointed" Christians?Or is it some vastly "different" promise like the Watchtower claims?

Apparently,gifts from God are "prepared" and "reserved" in heaven,but they "come down" and manifest themselves on earth.(James 1:17)What God sources..every good gift from him,including the kingdom,"comes down" to us.Where does the bible say we have to fly up to heaven to receive our gifts that are prepared there?Doesn't the bible instead say those prepared gifts descend to earth?All believers are said to have a "heavenly calling"(Heb. 3:1) because we have a calling from God to be Christian,not because we fly away to heaven.


Question # 4:

Look out.This one's WAY explicit.

Revelation 20:9 describes an invading army that "advances over the breadth of the earth" as it "encircles the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city."(which we've already identified as New Jerusalem)Then it proceeds to say that "fire came down out of heaven and devoured them"(the army)...So question is:

If the "camp of the holy ones and the beloved city" is supposed to be in heaven as the Watchtower insists,then how in the world can it be invaded by an army that "advances over the breadth of the earth?"If "fire came down out of heaven" to devour those invading the "holy ones",wouldn't this suggest(ok.. explicitly confirm to be honest)that the "holy ones" would positively have to be on earth?Otherwise,how could an invading army advancing against them ON EARTH make any sense whatsoever?

But what about Jesus?Won't the "anointed" live with him?


Question # 5:

Acts 3:21 says about Jesus:

"He must remain in heaven *until* the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets."

Wouldn't this scripture suggest(ok..explicitly confirm to be honest) that Jesus will return to the earth since heaven only holds him *until* a certain time?Repetition for emphasis(which I learned from the Watchtower..thanks a lot!):

"He(Jesus) must remain in heaven *until* the time of universal restitution"

Notice "until" yet?

As a Jehovah's Witness,I must have observed the "passover" when I saw this text.I certainly passed over this text!Accidental,I promise.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 says that we are to "wait" for Jesus "from heaven",which seems to correlate,no?When someone comes "from" somewhere to ones who are "waiting",wouldn't that imply leaving where he currently is to go TO those ones?Especially when we consider he's only in heaven "until" the time of restitution?

Fact is,the kingdom of the heavens is NOT distinguished from "the inhabited earth to come"(Heb. 2:5) in scripture.The Watchtower may make prodigious attempts to convince you otherwise,but all these scriptures are clear enough.

God's hidden message in the genealogy of Genesis 5

Genesis chapter 5 contains the genealogy from Adam to Noah.Therein lies a code according to the Hebrew meanings of the names that is yet another poignant demonstration of the poetry and the marvelous prophetic significance of the holy inspired word of God.Yahushua the Messiah is the word of God made flesh and manifest in the last days,of course.So this hidden message in Genesis points to him as the fulfillment of the word of God as do so many other mechanisms in the OT.Yes,Yahushua is ALL through the OT.Not as an angel nor as God,but as the word of God prophesied,prefigured,foreshadowed,typified,and represented in a number of places and ways,in a number of OT figures and stories and prophecies.Even in clandestine "messages" like the one I'm about to assess.

Yes,let's examine these Hebrew names and their meanings to receive God's message.And also to determine whether this code proves that God became a man,as trinitarians like to believe.Like so many other Hebrew terms,the names of people generally have more than one meaning,so it isn't easy to dogmatically pin down only one proper way to view this code in my humble opinion due to the variety of meanings of the names therein.Most typically,this is the interpretation of the "hidden" message one will see(first we have the Hebrew name,then the meaning of it after):

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow;
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.

So the code when translated could very well mean:
Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow.The blessed God shall descend teaching. His death shall bring the despairing rest,or comfort.

It should go without saying that this message was intentional and inspired,a beautiful prophecy poetic in it's "surreptitious" presentation.Let's dissect whether or not this code fits like a puzzle piece into the truth of the rest of the inspired word of God.(of course it does!lol)Examine:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

This text of course correlates with "Man was appointed mortal sorrow" which was gathered from the names Adam,Seth,Enosh,and Kenan in the Genesis 5 geneaology.Romans 5 goes on to say that "many died through one man's trespass" ,"one trespass led to condemnation for all men",and "by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners"(verses 15,18,and 19),all points which also corroborate the authenticity of this "code" being a significant prophetic message.Men went from being immortal and sinless,as God intended,to mortal and pitifully in bondage to sin as the consequence of one man's sin.Loss of life and the ability to please God perfectly because of our tainted flesh naturally leads to sorrow and pain.(Romans 7:14-25)

Thankfully,that isn't the end of either the code's message nor the message in Romans.That's only the bad news which people often like to hear before the GOOD NEWS!Further,the code says in the names of Mahalalel and Jared(I'll get into another possible interpretation a little later) that "the blessed God shall come down."

Trinitarians and others who believe Yahushua was the God of Deuteronomy 6:4(inexplicably considering the predominant biblical admonitions against such a view) will of course proudly wear their "See!!God came to earth as a baby/man to die for me!" glasses while conveniently ignoring the Hebrew semantic range of "elohim" in biblical times.In fact,they have to ignore a LOT of things to continue dogmatically asserting most of what they do.Let's examine the lexical possibilities for "elohim" and "theos"("God" in Hebrew and Greek) before we assert that "God" can only mean "Yahuwah's first,second,or third person OR Yahuwah's triune being." In fact,where does "God" EVER mean such concepts unless you choose to define it by use of a misguided theological presupposition or an abuse of inference.

The "Dictionary of biblical language with Semantic Domains" says that in the Hebrew OT ,the word God (אֱלֹהִים (ʾělō∙hîm)can also mean a "mighty one, i.e., a person who is strong and capable, and so a leader or prominent one" and also "majestic one, i.e., a person of high social status"..even "mighty, majestic things, i.e., things of nature that are awesome and large, majestic, and so awe-inspiring."Biblically speaking,the semantic range of "Elohim" is larger than the box in which trinitarians and the like would desire to force it.Larry Hurtado notes in "How on Earth Did Jesus Become a God?: Historical Questions about Earliest Devotion to Jesus":

"Whether one examines the Jewish or the Gentile use of the term up to the end of the first century A.D.,there is an occasional application of the term to human beings who perform divine functions or display divine characteristics.”

Yes,in the scriptures,judges,kings,angels,and God's representatives are sometimes so termed "elohim."(John 10:35; Ps. 82:1,6,97:9,Ex. 4:16,7:1)Couple more significant quotes,accurate in my opinion because of their scriptural & historical support.:

As for the way "god" aka "el" or "elohim" or "theos" is used in scripture.. "The root from which the Hebrew "el" is derived indicates "strength or might" We should not be aghast to see it used of men in the OT.There is an element of strength and might associated with human authority."~Ron Frye,from "The father/son relationship"

"As we have seen "theos" may refer to the One True God but it may also be used of other individuals.It refers to other figures,human or heavenly,only when they are understood to exercise some office or function on God's behalf and when ASSIGNED that function or office BY GOD."~Marianne Thompson(the God of the gospel of John p.47)

So IF we choose to interpret "Mahalalel" as "blessed God"(this isn't the only possibility)then this presents no real problem to monotheism and unitarianism unless those who believe Yahushua is part of a triune "homoousios"(substance) aren't able to face the Hebrew semantic range of "el" or "elohim."This ultimately may all be beside the point because it could very well be that the name "Mahalalel"more accurately means "The Praise OF God" or "The Blessed OF God."(as opposed to the blessed God)This also fits with scripture.(Matt. 9:8,Jn. 12:28,Matt. 3:17)There should be no dogmatic stance insistent upon either interpretation because they're equally valid.

Since the name "Jared" can mean "shall come down",let's determine where this particular phrase is corroborated in the holy inspired word,in relation to the descent of Christ of course.James 1:17 demonstrates the view of the Hebrew bible authors when it states rather plainly that :

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."

There is quite literally no greater gift to mankind than Yahushua from God.Yahushua was "from above" like any other gift from God.Christ said,however,in the gospel of John,that his "flesh" came down.This would present a real problem for trinitarians considering they think it was a spirit that "came down."Yes,they think it was God who had NO flesh who "came down" to RECEIVE flesh...Something Yahushua in John's gospel refutes.

John 6:51:I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John's gospel also says that the Son of MAN descended.(John 3:13)Why wouldn't this present a real problem for trinitarians who maintain that God descended into a womb to BECOME a man?According to John's gospel,again,it was a flesh man who came down.A man with flesh from heaven.Obviously,Christ and John incorporate figurative language because EVERY good gift comes down from heaven.So does the kingdom!
God's "word" is his every prophecy,one of which is communicated in the Genesis 5 genealogy,spectacularly enough.And who was the father's word manifest in and through?Well,the Last Adam,of course.So God's word of life(Messiah's flesh for the immortality of mankind) "came down" as God's greatest gift to mankind.It might be figurative but it's the way the Hebrews thought and wrote about any gift that came from heaven with God as it's source.I don't think that Hebrew concept would change in their hidden messages from God,which are simply going to affirm the scriptures and not stray from them.

It is certainly noteworthy that "Jared"(which we've so far interpreted to mean "come down") can also mean "going away from a place of prominence" or "one who is humbled".. If this perchance instead be the case in this hidden message,then that TOO would equally befit scriptural truth.In Philippians chapter 2:6-8 and 2 Corinthians 8:9,a rich man became poor for our sake by humbling himself all the way to death on a cross!This would most definitely correlate with the other possible meaning of "Jared" where a "humbling" could be in view instead of a "descent."This particular interpretation may even fit even better with what comes directly afterward in the message.(namely,Christ's death since it was a "humbling" at the cross,as opposed to an "incarnation" in a womb that led to his death)We further have the name "Enoch" which can mean "teaching" or "dedicated."(among other things)Christ was both a great teacher and dedicated to his mission as destined savior of the world.

Finally,we have the names Methuselah,Lamech,and Noah which ultimately probably mean(when interpreted together) "His death shall bring the despairing rest,or comfort."This brings us full circle back to Romans chapter 5 where we at last get to indulge in the GOOD news!Paul in Romans delves into Messiah's "death" that would bring us "comfort."We already covered earlier the "bad news" portions about how the first Adam's sin lead to death for all men.Now let's wrap our heads around the entire passages as a whole to glory in the promises,love and salvation of God in Christ our Lord!:

Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now ithe law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I LOVE how this hidden message in Genesis demonstrates that Yah knew the end from the beginning.(Is. 46:9,10)How it proves that his "word of life" was in and with him in the beginning as the prophesied Messianic savior that eventually would manifest to give immortality and hope to a mortal and wounded world.(1 John 1:1,2,Titus 1:2,Galatians 4:4)This was the most important and significant message of all..the word of God made flesh in a savior whose humbling and death would bring salvation and life to those who exercise faith.:)

Sean Finnegan-5 Major Problems with the Trinity

Please visit:

http://www.21stcr.org

from which I found this.

This isn't about who's right and who's wrong,amounting to ego.This is about KNOWING the only True God and His Son.(John 17:3)In order to do that,knowing their true identities is essential.

Wisdom in the Old Testament:Person or Personification?

There are a few points here you've already seen in some of my other blogs if you've read them.I was trying to simplify it all yet again. Hope this helps.

Wisdom is personified a number of places, and when it sounds like Yahushua sometimes that would be because it's alluding to him and that's what he would become. We must heed God's thoughts as best we can.Christ was real to God before he was real to the world, in an extremely thoughtful and poignant way. Would it really be so shocking for God to create everything(even in Genesis) in or for the sake of the Lamb that would redeem the world considering he's a God who:

1. Sees the end from the very beginning (Isaiah 46:10)
2. Sees things that aren't as though they are. (Rom. 4:17)

God knew he would give life to the world in Christ. So should it really be surprising that all things are said to be in and through Christ, without Christ having to be the actual creator of Adam, birds, bees, and trees?After all, texts like Colossians 1:16 say all things were through Christ (who is elsewhere identified as a flesh man), as opposed to God or an angel.

God's wisdom symbolized something more than just what a basic attribute entails. In some cases, much like his "word", it symbolized and represented God's plans to give life to the world in Yahushua.His greatest plan of wisdom ever conceived or birthed. God's Wisdom was revealed in a flesh man, as opposed to being the name of a spirit entity.

How exactly, scripturally speaking, was Yahushua the Wisdom of God?

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God *decreed* before the ages for our glory.

So he's the decreed wisdom (manifest to the world when it was time), not a spirit named Wisdom if we allow scripture to define it's own terms.

When we examine the following scriptures simply and thoughtfully, there should leave little to no doubt that when Wisdom is signified as creator, it is a personification of such, and not a literal second person next to God as such. So please carefully examine the following (my thoughts & brief questions for those who believe Wisdom was a spirit who was also the pre-existent Christ-with-another-name are in parentheses) :

Proverbs 3:19: The Lord by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;(Wisdom is a spirit creature but understanding isn't?)

Psalm 104:24: O Lord, how manifold are your works!
In wisdom have you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.(Two wisdoms?One of God's & another spirit named just that both are in sight here?)

Psalm 136:5: to him who by understanding made the heavens,
for his steadfast love endures forever;(And I suppose Yahushua was a spirit named Understanding too?)

Jeremiah 10:12: It is he who made the earth by his power,
who established the world by his wisdom,
and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.(How is Wisdom a person and understanding and the like are not if consistency & logic means anything?)

Jeremiah 51:15 “It is he who made the earth by his power,
who established the world by his wisdom,
and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.(Established the world by Wisdom the spirit creature?)

Hebrews 4:4:"And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."(Why didn't Wisdom the spirit rest,anywhere,ever?)


1 Corinthians 1:24 says:

"To those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Again,how WAS he the "wisdom of God"?As spirit entity?OR:

1 Corinthians 1:30:It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has ***become*** for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Notice the terminology like "has become for us" that should succintly inform us of how and when it was Christ manifested as "Wisdom." This Wisdom, again, was defined explicitly also as a "decree." This decree would apparently manifest in the flesh as the man Yahushua when the "fullness of time came" (Gal. 4:4) for the father's wisdom to be made flesh to the world, and not before. It is my view that God brought this decree forth (poetically speaking) before he even made man, foreknowing the fall and the dire need of redemption that would result. In that regard, I believe texts like Prov. 8:22-31 have possible poetic allusions to Yahushua as opposed to literal statements about him .He was God's prototype for man and idea for life giving sustenance for us in the mind and heart of the God who "knew the end from the beginning", again, even then. It is irresponsible imo to arbitrarily pick and choose where you will literalize "wisdom"(or not) in the OT. Consistency is called for. Three quotes & thoughts from scholar James Dunn's "Christology in the Making.":

"When Paul and others attribute Wisdom's role in creation to Christ was this intended literally(Jesus himself was there at creation) or do we have some form of poetic hyperbole, which their readers would recognize to be such?--here once again the context of meaning for the first Christians is all important."-p.167

"In order to understand what meaning such words and statements had for those who used them, WE MUST INTERPRET THEM IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH THEY WERE USED."--p.170(emphasis mine)

"Talk of his (Jesus') preexistence ought probably in most,perhaps in all,cases to be understood,on the analogy of the preexistence of the Torah, to indicate the eternal divine purpose being achieved through him ,rather than preexistence of any personal kind."(lost page #,sorry)

It would seem to me, based upon scriptures and reason and the milk of the word,that Arians and the like have it backward. They see where wisdom is personified and literalize it. Instead of being able to recognize THAT it's being personified as God's wisdom, simply. Yes, it's intensely personified. Yes, personification makes what's being personified sound like it's a real person. That is why it is so termed & the actual purpose of it. The wisdom and word passages being applied to Christ was Hebrew thinking. They also did this with passages they freely applied to Christ that were also applied to God, David, Solomon, Melchizedek, Moses,Jonah (etc.). It's how they thought and wrote. The snake on the pole to which the Israelites had to gaze to keep living wasn't literally Christ even though he fulfilled that when he conquered sin on the cross..The manna on which the Israelites fed for sustenance wasn't literally Christ though his flesh was the true bread from heaven as he *became* the true manna. Similarly, God's personified wisdom in the OT wasn't literally Christ but he became and fulfilled that as well. Yes,"in him(Christ) lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Col. 2:3)

Christ,poetically and profoundly enough, was the fulfillment of all things. It was Hebrew thought to express this deep truth & Christ's cosmological significance by applying the functions of God's prophets & servants,God's wisdom, even a few times of God himself to Christ in the NT. Because, given all power, he fulfills these functions beautifully. Yes, even some of the functions of God because God gave those to him, but let us not forget texts like 1 Corinthians 15:28 that shed light upon the matter. Similarly, let us use the texts about how God created that I went over earlier to establish our "milk of the word" by which we can properly assess all the other information given, making sure not to misuse it.

God creating in his wisdom becomes God creating in Christ because Christ became the wisdom of God. Simply stated, again, "Jesus *has become* our wisdom sent from God."(1 Cor. 1:30)What Christ represented, became and fulfilled was there from the beginning, namely God's wisdom. The father's wisdom came to life and manifest in Christ's flesh at the proper time, as opposed to some literal spirit named Wisdom crawling into a womb to become a man. Such a notion is NOT communicated in any of the detailed birth narratives, which I'm assuming are explicit in their face valueness..Were this the case, surely it would have been crystal clearly articulated because it would be downright astounding. Certainly not a detail to neglect mentioning. Instead what we have is personification of God's wisdom, even sometimes of his wisdom "decree", and then that being manifested in the last days, which is when the Hebrews say it was that God actually spoke in and through his "Son."(Heb. 1:2), conveniently enough.To quote Karen Armstrong, who is a British author and commentator & the author of twelve books on comparative religion:

"Like the divine Wisdom,the "Word" symbolized God's original plan for creation. When Paul and John speak about Jesus as though he had some kind of pre-existent life, they were not suggesting he was a second divine "person" in the later trinitarian sense. They were indicating that Jesus transcended temporal and individual modes of existence. Because the "power" and "wisdom" he REPRESENTED(emphasis mine) were activities that derived from God, he had in some way expressed what was there from the beginning. These ideas were comprehensible in a strictly Jewish context, though later Christians with a Greek background would interpret them differently."--from "A History of God:From Abraham to the present: the 4000 year quest for God", p.106

Yahushua came to be identified with the very wisdom of God. In his fulfillment of all things.In his eschatological and kingdom significance. etc. There was a divine mind and purpose, identified with wisdom, by which God made, ordered, directed, (etc.) the very universe. Christ was not that literal function or attribute,yet he came to embody it beautifully and perfectly. Not as spirit/creator/angel,but as the Messiah that came to be identified (as opposed to always having been identified literally) with that wisdom by which God created. There's simply no denying the poetry of the Hebrews when it came to the wisdom of God. I don't think they abandoned that poetry in the NT. I think they still incorporated it when Yahushua became that wisdom. James Dunn notes in "Christology in the Making":

"His (Paul's in Corinthians) aim,as we have seen, is to assert that the same divine power is active both in creation and in salvation; he achieves this by describing Christ the Lord in Wisdom language; his meaning then would be that the power of God in creation came so fully to expression in Christ's death and resurrection that it can be said of Christ what was said of Wisdom..that is to say,since presumably for Paul too Wisdom was not a being distinct from God, but was the "wisdom of God"(1 Cor. 1:24), God acting wisely..(skipping ahead a little) In other words, Christ is being identified here not with a pre-existent being but with the creative power and action of God. And the thought is not of Christ as pre-existent but of the creative act and power of God now embodied in a final and complete way in Christ." p.182


Simplified: God created in his wisdom and understanding, by words from his own mouth, quite literally. Christ became God's wisdom and word to the world in the flesh, as the Christ. What prefigured and foreshadowed Christ in the OT could be applied to Christ in the NT, according to a pattern the bible authors establish, and not just in the case of "Wisdom." We must let God establish our milk first, so that these deeper things can be assessed within their proper larger biblical context and pattern of thought. There should be no confusion when we pore the milk first. No pun intended. The milk in all it's unambiguous simplicity, that is. If the bible has no contradictions, did the father create absolutely alone? (Is. 44:24,Mal. 2:10,Matt. 19:4) According to the texts I went over earlier, in what way did he do so? According to the texts I went over earlier, how was Christ the Wisdom of God when we allow it to define it's own terms?


Please understand that by my expressing all this, I am not negating the frequent NEW creation context of the NT creation passages. I just think it goes a little deeper because God's mind & thoughts do,and the writers were inspired. Because God's word of life, his wisdom decree, was foreknown and with him from the beginning. Manifest and made flesh in Yahushua when the right time arrived. He became identified with that same wisdom & word by which God created. Which the Hebrews intensely personified because it represented God's outreach to mankind without compromising his transcendence. Also, as that which would come to be manifest finally in Christ perfectly..God always spoke by his wisdom (and his wisdom has frequently manifest through others), and in the last days that wisdom became a Son by which he spoke and guaranteed salvation and a kingdom. God's wisdom manifest indeed!

It was a pattern for bible writers to apply OT truths to Yahushua in the NT. Functions that he filled, ones that he was made and given. Also, foreshadowings and prefigurings that he became. Do you think that halted with Wisdom? I personally don't.

Does John 12:41 prove that Jesus is Yahweh?

Greg Stafford,in an essay he wrote on this topic in response to James White,summarizes:

"The teaching of John 12:41 is simple,straightforward and otherwise(that is,apart from trinitarianism)clear,Isaiah saw the "glory" of the Christ's humanity,suffering,and death for our sins while being dishonored among men,as a man,which teaching John develops throughout John 12 and specifically from verse 16 onward.(see John 12:16,23,32-34,37-41),using the same verbs(doxazo,hypso'o,pistueo,and horao)and the same substantive(doxa)that we find in the LXX of Isaiah 52:10,13,14,15 and Isaiah 53:1,2,and 4.John observes that,like the suffering servant of Isaiah 52& 53(specifically 53:1 which he quotes in John 12:38),the crowd did not "put faith in him (Jesus)"(John 12:36,37 [where,again,in both texts and in verse 38 we find forms of the verb for "believe," pistueo]),which is the same language Isaiah used when speaking of Messiah:"Jehovah,who has believed(LXX: epistuese(form of pistueo)our report?And to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed?"Is. 53:1,John 12:38

Find the link to the PDF of Stafford's refutation to James White here:
http://elihubooks.blogspot.com/2011/08/dr-james-white-and-assumptions-of.html

Highly recommend reading it.

Another helpful source:
http://responses.scripturaltruths.com/jesus/agloryseen/