This is the first of a few blogs that will be exploring how other texts in the bible interpret Philippians 2:5-8 FOR us,making it simple to understand that a "hypostatic union" is not only improbable,but imo,impossible if I am right that the texts I will be using positively correlate with Philippians 2.This first blog(with an attached video)in the series deals with 2 Corinthians 8:9 in relation to Philippians.I already have a blog on this particular correlation if you'd like to read it here:
1st blog on 2 Cor. 8:9 in relation to Phil. 2
I wanted to simplify it as much as I could for a video.First,let us just look at the texts.
Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in very nature God,(in the form of God would be a better interpretation,sorry)did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!
2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
Now you will usually be able to get trinitarians and Arians to admit this correlates explicitly with Philippians 2.However,that would cause a real problem for them.Because they would then have to admit,according to their own interpretation of Philippians,that Christ's "richness" entailed his "pre-existent deity as the second person of a triune God" or as "pre-existing spirit creature."However,2 Corinthians here says that WE,through Christ's poverty "might become rich."To say "well Christ's richness meant as deity,but ours means as children of God" would be positively absurd.Yes,our "richness" within this text is compared to Christ's.So question is..what was the richness in Corinthians,which correlates with "form of God" in Philippians?If it's something we can have,apparently it is that we are "children of God,fellow heirs with Christ" destined for glory.(Rom. 8:16,17)Is that not what Christ also was?Could that not define Christ's "richness?"A child and heir of God,born of God, destined for glory.Absolutely.
As for the "poverty" of Christ in Corinthians,this would correlate with "making himself nothing, taking the form of a servant" from Philippians.How was this accomplished?Well,we've already established that "richness",if it does in fact correlate with "form of God" in Philippians,CANNOT be Christ as true God because we too can have the same richness.So working from that starting point,"taking the form of a servant" and "poverty" would be,not that deity took on human form but that the Son of God as a rich man who was heir to a kingdom,who deserved nothing less than to be served as well as a remarkable exaltation,instead humbled himself all the way to an ignominious,gut-wrenching fate on a cross!He served others humbly ,even dying for them,even though he was king and Lord of them.Yes,though he was rich,he became poor for us!
As James Dunn notes in "Christology in the Making"
"When Paul elsewhere speaks of "grace"(gracious gift,or gracious act)in connection with what Christ has done he was always thinking of his death and resurrection.(see esp. Rom. 5:15,21;Gal. 2:20;Eph. 1:6).Nowhere else does he talk of Christ's "gracious act" as his becoming man."p. 121
In review:
If Christ's "richness" was as "pre-existent deity",then *why and how* are we said to be rich within the same,I repeat same, passage?If you insist on interpreting "richness" differently for Christ than for us,essentially,then on what logical exegetical basis would this make sense within the very same passage?Do you believe(or not) that Christ's "richness" in 2 Corinthians 8:9 correlates with his being in the "form of God" in Philippians?If so,then when scripture is allowed to interpret itself,*how* is "richness" defined if we too can have it?Rich as true God?Or rich as children of God/heirs/future kings?Was Christ a child of God?Was he heir and king?Would it not then make sense that he was rich THAT way,as opposed to "rich" as the "2nd person of a triune essence in heaven"?Within 2 Corinthians 8:9,the "grace of Christ" was his "becoming poor",which would explicitly correlate with "made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being found in the likeness of men" from Philippians 2.Agreed? Wouldn't this suggest that, in correlation with 2 Corinthians 8:9, that Philippians 2:5-8 would then be that Christ as a *rich man who was a child of God*(as opposed to a rich pre-existing "true God")humbling himself even to death at the cross,as opposed to God becoming a man?Since the bible always,I repeat always, defines the grace of Christ as his death and resurrection,and never as God becoming a man?
Showing posts with label 2 Corinthians 8:9. Show all posts
Showing posts with label 2 Corinthians 8:9. Show all posts
Sunday, June 12, 2011
Thursday, March 31, 2011
Philippians 2:5-11 and 2 Corinthians 8:9
Because I already wrote sort of an extensive blog on these Philippians scriptures,I will make this one brief.It will not be nearly as thorough as the other so I recommend reading the other one in addition to this one to address any further concerns or questions that you may have.You can find it here:
Does Philippians 2:4-11 prove that God became a man?
Philippians 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name
The point I desire to make in this blog is these texts' explicit correlation with 2 Corinthians 8:9.This will simplify and make very concise,easy,and clear the intent of the Philippians passages.So let's examine:
2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
Even trinitarians understand how this correlates with and sheds light upon Philippians 2:5-11.Yet amazingly enough,they still think Christ's "richness" was his "divine identity as the second person of a triune God."Notice this text,however,says that *we too* become rich.Howso?
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
So being "rich" means being in God's grace and favor,through Christ.My guess would be that this would be as our being his son or daughter,close to him and full of his spirit.As heirs and recipients of an unimaginable imperishable glory,possessing an invaluable relationship with the creator of the universe.Is that not what Yahushua had as the Last Adam before he humbled himself at the cross?So basically there's no reason to read into Christ's "richness" deity equal to his own God's as the second person of three in some mysterious "essence."To do so would be eisegesis.Now that I've covered what Christ's "richness" *really* was(the same kind we can obtain),let's also let scripture define what his grace and poverty was.
Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
and verse 17: For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
From Christ's humbling himself like a good for nothing criminal/slave at the cross for the life and salvation of faithful mankind,we are able to experience the "grace of our Lord Jesus Christ."It is the "poverty" he experienced by his humiliation at the cross as opposed to the "poverty" he experienced supposedly gaining a "man nature"(according to trinitarians) that is clearly in view,that makes our own "richness" possible!Take note that the texts don't say anything about God humbling himself unto death(That's impossible.Nor is it possible for a "nature" or a "body" devoid of a person to die.),but rather a "man" doing so."Godman" has to be read INTO the texts as an ultimately unwarranted inference.
To make all this even more clear,examine:
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So the grace of God WAS Christ's "poverty", defined here as Christ's "giving himself for me" and "dying."Notice,once again,that Christ's "poverty"(which correlates explicitly with his humiliation communicated in Philippians 2) is not defined as God becoming a man.But rather as the Last Adam,the sinless and blemishless image of God,being treated as if he deserved utter humiliation,an ignominious fate,a grotesque painful death at the cross.He clearly did NOT deserve this.Yes,his being found in the likeness of men simply meant that he had to die like sinful men though that is not what he was.He was a rich and sinless man,full of his father's spirit,grace,and love.However,despite this,"God made him(Yahushua) who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."(2 Corinthians 5:21)This is how Yahushua humbled himself to be like (sinful)men even though he was the sinless Last Adam.Though Phil 2:7 in the ESV bible says "born in the likeness of men",it could just as well read "being made like men",which reiterates the previous point in the same verse in my opinion,which was that he "made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant."Howso,again?By becoming sin for us and humbling himself so graciously.Men inherited sin from Adam which leads to death.Yahushua had no sin yet became sin for us.Even the first Adam had God's image,so should it be any wonder the Last faithful and true one had the "form of God?"(Phil. 2:6)Form is synonymous with image.(Genesis 1.27; 5.3,2 Corinthians 4.4; Col 1.15)
In summary,the humiliation in view in Philippians should be seen not as God becoming a man to die at the cross but as a very rich man becoming poor for our sake.A sinless heir and king becoming sin for us.
Does Philippians 2:4-11 prove that God became a man?
Philippians 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name
The point I desire to make in this blog is these texts' explicit correlation with 2 Corinthians 8:9.This will simplify and make very concise,easy,and clear the intent of the Philippians passages.So let's examine:
2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
Even trinitarians understand how this correlates with and sheds light upon Philippians 2:5-11.Yet amazingly enough,they still think Christ's "richness" was his "divine identity as the second person of a triune God."Notice this text,however,says that *we too* become rich.Howso?
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
So being "rich" means being in God's grace and favor,through Christ.My guess would be that this would be as our being his son or daughter,close to him and full of his spirit.As heirs and recipients of an unimaginable imperishable glory,possessing an invaluable relationship with the creator of the universe.Is that not what Yahushua had as the Last Adam before he humbled himself at the cross?So basically there's no reason to read into Christ's "richness" deity equal to his own God's as the second person of three in some mysterious "essence."To do so would be eisegesis.Now that I've covered what Christ's "richness" *really* was(the same kind we can obtain),let's also let scripture define what his grace and poverty was.
Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
and verse 17: For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
From Christ's humbling himself like a good for nothing criminal/slave at the cross for the life and salvation of faithful mankind,we are able to experience the "grace of our Lord Jesus Christ."It is the "poverty" he experienced by his humiliation at the cross as opposed to the "poverty" he experienced supposedly gaining a "man nature"(according to trinitarians) that is clearly in view,that makes our own "richness" possible!Take note that the texts don't say anything about God humbling himself unto death(That's impossible.Nor is it possible for a "nature" or a "body" devoid of a person to die.),but rather a "man" doing so."Godman" has to be read INTO the texts as an ultimately unwarranted inference.
To make all this even more clear,examine:
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So the grace of God WAS Christ's "poverty", defined here as Christ's "giving himself for me" and "dying."Notice,once again,that Christ's "poverty"(which correlates explicitly with his humiliation communicated in Philippians 2) is not defined as God becoming a man.But rather as the Last Adam,the sinless and blemishless image of God,being treated as if he deserved utter humiliation,an ignominious fate,a grotesque painful death at the cross.He clearly did NOT deserve this.Yes,his being found in the likeness of men simply meant that he had to die like sinful men though that is not what he was.He was a rich and sinless man,full of his father's spirit,grace,and love.However,despite this,"God made him(Yahushua) who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."(2 Corinthians 5:21)This is how Yahushua humbled himself to be like (sinful)men even though he was the sinless Last Adam.Though Phil 2:7 in the ESV bible says "born in the likeness of men",it could just as well read "being made like men",which reiterates the previous point in the same verse in my opinion,which was that he "made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant."Howso,again?By becoming sin for us and humbling himself so graciously.Men inherited sin from Adam which leads to death.Yahushua had no sin yet became sin for us.Even the first Adam had God's image,so should it be any wonder the Last faithful and true one had the "form of God?"(Phil. 2:6)Form is synonymous with image.(Genesis 1.27; 5.3,2 Corinthians 4.4; Col 1.15)
In summary,the humiliation in view in Philippians should be seen not as God becoming a man to die at the cross but as a very rich man becoming poor for our sake.A sinless heir and king becoming sin for us.
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