Wednesday, April 29, 2009

Questions for Trinitarians

Please read the following book(it's really fantastic):

"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas from which I got many of these questions.

Further Questions:
When you honor the son as you honor the father,do you honor him as appointed king and Messiah OF God,as God's most beloved son,as the bible describes him?Or do you honor him as Almighty God,One who is the same being his father is,as the bible nowhere indicates you should?Would you call Jesus's father the only true God like Jesus did?How come Jesus is never called the only True God but distinguished his being from his father's?

Do you believe every ounce of Jesus's being was speaking when he said "No one is good but one,God" and "the father is greater than I?"If not,why not?If not,isn't that an implication of schizophrenia ,and can you show me a scripture that says he is 200 percent and the weaker 100 percent human portion overpowered the 100 percent God portion of his being?Are you SURE this isn't an inference?

If man is made in God's image,where are the other two persons in your being,each 100 % you?iIf you think that sounds nuts,think about how the trinity sounds to skeptics!

Why do trinitarians insist that Jesus being the son of God made him equal to God just because the Jews assumed this to be so?Didn't the Jews also assume he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath?Were they really reliable people for finding truth?Didn't Jesus refute them by saying things like "I do nothing by myself","my words are not my own","ye are all gods" etc?If you believe the Jews,then you've made the word of Jesus invalid by accepting theirs.And if Jesus WAS equal to God in some way(by God's power working through His agency and in will and purpose possibly?)how would that suggest ANYTHING but that he cannot actually BE God?If you're equal to someone,are you the same "being" as that one?

Will you admit that Jesus' father is REALLY greater than him like the bible says or will you infer your own wild philosophy onto the simple truthful holy word and say only 1 of his 200 percent was talkin?

Will you respect the word and trust that God alone is wise and good or will you trust Athanasius and Tertullian and your preacher for your doctrine,even if it means heaping a preconceived fallacy on every text that distinguishes Jesus FROM GOD?

Will you accept Jesus as the Messiah and savior and son of God and appointed king and heir or will you accept him as the same being whose son he is who blessed him and gave him everything he has?

How come you say it was just a human nature inheriting something that as Almighty God he already possessed when the bible only says that Jesus,God's son through obedience and faithfulness,inherited something from his own God and father that he EARNED?

Are you implying that the 100% GOD part wasn't powerful enough to overcome the HUMAN limitations?

If Jesus is coequal why would he pretend he wasn't?Is Jesus deceptive?Why didn't he indicate that one hundred percent of the 200 percent of his person was absent from his statements of reliance and inferiority?Wouldn't this be a SERIOUS omission?

If he was God wouldn't the son of God have been deceptive language?

If God said "I am the son of God" he would be a liar,unless he's no longer just one being.

If Jesus became like his brothers in every way,does this mean they are God?If Christians have the fullness of God,does this mean they are God?If Adam had the image .or form.of God,did that mean he was God?Is Moses God,cause he was God to Pharaoh and Aaron?If not,why are these standards proof Jesus was God?

Why do trinitarians suggest that Jesus having a share of God's glory means he has to be God when Jesus indicates at John 17:22 that his followers will share in the SAME glory,suggesting the kind of glory he himself possesses,a glory afforded him as a gift from his God?And if he has it and then his disciples will,will they be in the godhead too?

And the following are from the website :

Why do Trinitarian apologists fail to mention their defender Athanasius believed "God became man so that men might become gods." ?

Why do Trinitarians suggestively imply the early Christian Tertullian had Trinitarian beliefs but refrain from disclosing that he declared the Son was inferior to the Father and also insisted there was a time when the Son was not?

Why does the Trinitarian three person God mislead his people by using the singular personal pronouns "I" and "ME"?

How do Trinitarians expect anyone to believe the shema given by God to Israel, "The LORD our God the LORD is one" was intended to mean to the Jewish people "the Lord is one substance" or "the LORD is one trio"?

Why do Trinitarians misrepresent the facts of history by claiming the Trinity issue was settled at the Council of Nicea when Arians had almost won the day 40 years later? And why do they fail to mention the Arian controversy was really ended politically by a decree of Emperor Theodosius 55 years after Nicea?

Why do Trinitarians declare the number of individuals of the "US" and "OUR" group at Genesis 1:26 to be three persons, no more, no less, without any evidence whatsoever? And why they refuse to consistently refer to God as "THEY" and "THEM"?

Why did Jesus say, "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent" instead of "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know Us, the only true God?"

Also of interest to a trinitarian..the following blog:

This is a MUST read :-)....thanks!

Thursday, April 2, 2009

Reasoning with trinitarians part 4

This blog was originally written in response to a particular trinitarian's objections but I've modified it as some of my beliefs have changed.Hope this still makes some sense and doesn't seem discombobulated because of the quick and choppy editing.

Trinitarians say in Revelation 5:13-14 the same glory and praise is being given to Jehovah and Christ,and that if two people are given the same thing from someone, they are sharing it.

1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.” by this reasoning,am I to assume the king is thought of as the same God Yahweh is?And no I’m not comparing Jesus to an earthly king because he is second most high over all,but your standards for being Jehovah are skewed.

Jesus was a servant OF Jehovah,an agent of Jehovah and a son of Jehovah.Can’t dance around it.

Another triniatrian objection is that God is the only savior therefore Jesus is God.

Nnyone Jehovah uses to save through can be called savior.Who sent Jesus to save?Would Jesus have been able to save if he hadn’t been sent?
Here’s a point from my blog:

1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bile in basic English)

Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb’s younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God’s world translation)

Isaiah 19:20:he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)

By trinitarian standards,anyone Jehovah sent forth to save or rescue his people could be called almighty God.

I would be interested in finding out what you think Jesus preached about most ?Was it his own name and his own death?Or was it the kingdom of God and his father’s name?Aren’t we to follow in his footsteps?Should our entire gospel message be Jesus or should it go beyond him all the way to the kingdom message and his God and father’s name?If Jesus opened the way for us to reach Jehovah,why should we stop at Jesus and assume there is no one to reach through him?If Jesus is your “all in all” then you are ignoring HIS “all in all”.That might be dangerous.

Jesus was a miraculously conceived human being who was about to be exalted above his partners!Now let’s think about this for a minute..who would his partners be?And if Jesus was Almighty God would it really be appropriate to say he has partners that Almighty God will exalt him above ONLY BECAUSE of his obedience and faithfulness and conquering of the world and saving man?And if one Almighty God exalts another Almighty God above his partners how many almighty Gods is that exactly?I don’t think Jehovah has partners..I think he has servants and sons and subordinates.I don’t think Jehovah can learn obedience and be exalted,but apparently trinitarians do.

Jesus was “the Last Adam”..Now if one perfect man had the power to cause the fall of all men then another perfect man ,on Jehovah’s scales of absolute justice ,had the power to buy back the lives that the other had lost.Remember,God cannot die and you are robbing us of atonement,Mr. Trinitarian ..because you don’t believe Jesus REALLY died do you?Just a human nature but Jesus was REALLY alive somewhere right?If Jesus,all of him,wasn’t dead for three whole days in that tomb,not only are you preaching a different Jesus,but your atonement is null and void.

Jesus WAS absolutely a PERFECT SINLESS miraculously conceived human being while he was here.Able to be tempted and able to die.Because of his relying on Jehovah for everything,supplicating continually,and throwing his burdens on Jehovah,he was sinless and the flawless sacrifice for our redemption.He was the LAST I know for a fact that the heavens can't even contain the Most High,that the Most high is so holy that he can't LITERALLY live amongst unholy fact,so holy that his perfect flawless son has to mediate,yet you think this same Most High was tempted,relied upon and continually supplicated to himself and resided amongst the very men that are too unholy to even speak to him without mediation.Also,that he died.This is grossly unbiblical and made possible only by a pagan philosophy that turns one into three,that redefines son,and calls God mortal and assumes a soul cannot be destroyed or die,again,UNBIBLICAL.What it IS ,however,is philosophical and creedal.Again,if one perfect man who sinned was able to make every one of us lose our lives then another perfect man who didn't sin,but instead humbled himself under the mighty hand of HIS GOD,could buy them back!!THAT is Jehovah's scales of justice.I don't care about your own.After all,God can't die and souls aren't immortal till they're GIFTED immortality and Jesus wasn't until he was raised on the third day.Any other teaching is a different Jesus and a lie.Jehovah sent his son to die.Not himself.

2 Samuel 7:12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. 14 I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. 15 As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. 16 And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite.

Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

So now I can only ask you if Jehovah reproved himself and allowed men to abuse and kill himself or was it his son?I would also wonder if the one who was brought before the "Ancient of Days" WAS the "Ancient of Days" or was it his son and heir?How is this scenario a remote possibility if they are the SAME God and where is the holy spirit?Now did Jehovah will and grant a kingdom,as firstborn heir,to himself or to his son?Do you understand the concept of a father and a son?

I obviously can't read hebrew or greek,but what I can do is understand what "one" "sent" "servant" "given" different will" "nothing of my own initiative" "supplication" "tempted" "dead" "agent" "representative" and "father and son" mean.

I have yet to have a single "Christian" soul find me a passage where the "firstborn" of a group is not a MEMBER of that very group.Am I to assume something different for Jesus,that suddenly he isn't a part of God's very creation??OF COURSE NOT.After all,he DID call Jehovah his God and father and HIS God and father did testify from the very heavens that Jesus is a beloved son!And I'm supposed to turn off reasoning with a creed remote and turn down the volume with a philosophy button to believe these two very distinct personalities are the very same being.No thanks.I prefer to utilize my reasoning and listen carefully to Jehovah and Jesus's own testimonies.

Lots of reiiteration sure to abound ahead..caution:
(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
He doesn't say,I am going my way to the father ,who isn't REALLY greater than I am

..(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God
He didn't say "I'm about to lie here"

..(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
He didn't say "triune Jehovah"

..(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him

it doesn't say there is one triune God with father,son and holy ghost

Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever!

He didn't say "one of my two natures died"

Who did Peter say Jesus was ?
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16:16).
He didn't say "you are Jehovah God Almighty,one of three persons of Jehovah God Almighty.

Who did Jesus say his father was?
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God
He didn't say he was one of three persons in the same true God.

And I've yet to receive an honest response to this:"True God from True God" many True Gods is that?

Wednesday, April 1, 2009

2 Corinthians 5:8 and the kingdom of God

At first,I was just going to write a very brief blog to address 2 Corinthians 5:8.But somehow it turned into a kingdom blog.I called it Kangdom,not because I can't spell but because I live in Kentucky.

Orthodox Christians say:
2 Corintians 5:8:we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

So their reasoning is that death is nothing but the separation of the soul from the body(just like Satan's one ever REALLY dies!) so the resurrection MUST BE just a rejoining of the two.

Ok..this answer is from a yahoo message board from a JW I 'm assuming ..anyway,here it is(MUCH better than anything I could've said):
At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

When would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” He added, , “ the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.

This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.

Gotta love some good ol' logic!After all,we know the dead are described as sleeping and having no thoughts at all,which would be impossible were they alive somewhere.It is of utmost importance to recognize corresponding texts to exegete those that seem to state something so clearly..they MUST be used with others,the succint majority!The bible also points out that God made this earth "even to be inhabited" and flesh(which doesn't inhabit the heavens) will be praising his holy name forever on a cleansed perfected earth.

Even when the dead are dead,he sees them AS THOUGH they are alive.He has a book of remembrance,which isn't reconcilable with the immortal soul doctrine.(Just one of MANY things that aren't!)Also,if the resurrection is just a "rejoining" of soul and body,why is it even happening..if the souls are in their destinies why is there a need for this and why is there a future judgment if one has already occurred?

Romans 8:18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.

And what expectation can this creation anticipate,as Heavenly Jerusalem descends from the heavens over the earth for the benefit of mankind?Well,obviously we can expect untold benefits and blessings that Adam and Eve could've had for an eternity had they never sinned.

Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.

I believe those nations will be on earth,enjoying the "trees of life,with leaves that heal" and "rivers of waters of life".

Genesis 2:9:And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden

Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.

So the bride,the anointed,urge all those wishing to live forever in a paradise on earth to take life's water free!How awesome is that?!

Reminds us of this:

John 4:13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”

God did not put it into the hearts of men to desire peace on earth and love for nature and animals etc..only to have us think our only hope is one in the heavens!If you feel that peace on earth with no more sickness and death,with blessings unimaginable sounds like a good thing,then that is because your creator gave you those ideals and hopes.Ones that he can fulfill.

Revelation 5:10: and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings on the earth

Psalms 45:16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons,Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.

So what this says to me,those who were Jesus's forefathers (Abraham ,David etc) will be appointed in powerful positions right here!

All one gargantuan and benevolent theocratic organization,as God is a God of order and peace and not of disarray.

And when will these things occur?Well,it has to be soon.In the bible,Jehovah always destroyed wicked cities and people at the peak of their wickedness and folks,things couldn't get much worse.If ya don't think so,look at how television or schoolchildren have changed JUST SINCE the 50's.BIG difference!Huge!
And I am quite sure if you're on the internet much at all,you have heard about a lil somethin called the New World Order.Without getting into it too much,I would like to point out that it correlates with the tower of Babel.Jesus compared our days to those days so I think we are living in VERY significant times!

In the book of Daniel,chapters 2 and 7,we are told through visions that Daniel interpreted by means of God's holy spirit,the succession of world powers that would ensue upon this earth.They were Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medo-Persia,Greece,Rome and then lastly,the Anglo-American!And that is the last one!The book of revelation lets us know that this last one will remain "a short time",so we're nearly there folks!What will happen?Well,I won't get into the destruction of false religion and the cries of "Peace and Security!" etc,but there will certainly be tribulation like we have NEVER known,and there will never be anything like it ever again..Sounds abysmal and frightening,BUT afterward,BLESSINGS!

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

And I think we all know what kind of kingdom that will be and what kind of king it will have!So if we endure to the end in the love and worship of Jehovah and the veneration and recognition of our Lord and savior,Jesus Christ,our hearts should swell with the hope ahead!

Romans 15:4: For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope

The bible lets us know to seek knowledge,righteousness,meekness,love,fine works,etc..and we will inherit many blessings.Let us not give up and may we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God Almighty.All those who do will be exalted and all those who don't will suffer humiliation and ultimately,destruction.(Micah 6:8,Mark 13:13,Proverbs 18:12,John 3:16)

Jehovah is LOVE.Jehovah is salvation.(that's what Jesus' very name means,whom he used as agent in the salvation of his loved children).Jehovah means" he causes to become" and that he has,and that he will continue to do!

Neva forget that we have as high priest someone who has been tempted in every way just like we have been,who has suffered huge atrocities etc.None of us can know every minute detail ..and the bible even talks about "new scrolls" that will be our eyes and hearts and minds should be focused on the kingdom to come and not any status or wealth or distracting focus that this world has to offer,for it is passing away.

1 John 2:15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.

God's will is for us to follow in Christ's footsteps by living for the kingdom and for the exaltation of Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.