Thursday, April 2, 2009

Reasoning with trinitarians part 4

This blog was originally written in response to a particular trinitarian's objections but I've modified it as some of my beliefs have changed.Hope this still makes some sense and doesn't seem discombobulated because of the quick and choppy editing.

Trinitarians say in Revelation 5:13-14 the same glory and praise is being given to Jehovah and Christ,and that if two people are given the same thing from someone, they are sharing it.

1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.” by this reasoning,am I to assume the king is thought of as the same God Yahweh is?And no I’m not comparing Jesus to an earthly king because he is second most high over all,but your standards for being Jehovah are skewed.

Jesus was a servant OF Jehovah,an agent of Jehovah and a son of Jehovah.Can’t dance around it.

Another triniatrian objection is that God is the only savior therefore Jesus is God.

Nnyone Jehovah uses to save through can be called savior.Who sent Jesus to save?Would Jesus have been able to save if he hadn’t been sent?
Here’s a point from my blog:

1 samuel 23:5:David was the saviour of the people of Keilah.(bile in basic English)

Judges 3:9:Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Othniel, son of Caleb’s younger brother Kenaz.15The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin.(God’s world translation)

Isaiah 19:20:he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them
Jude 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(explains how they are both savior)

By trinitarian standards,anyone Jehovah sent forth to save or rescue his people could be called almighty God.

I would be interested in finding out what you think Jesus preached about most ?Was it his own name and his own death?Or was it the kingdom of God and his father’s name?Aren’t we to follow in his footsteps?Should our entire gospel message be Jesus or should it go beyond him all the way to the kingdom message and his God and father’s name?If Jesus opened the way for us to reach Jehovah,why should we stop at Jesus and assume there is no one to reach through him?If Jesus is your “all in all” then you are ignoring HIS “all in all”.That might be dangerous.

Jesus was a miraculously conceived human being who was about to be exalted above his partners!Now let’s think about this for a minute..who would his partners be?And if Jesus was Almighty God would it really be appropriate to say he has partners that Almighty God will exalt him above ONLY BECAUSE of his obedience and faithfulness and conquering of the world and saving man?And if one Almighty God exalts another Almighty God above his partners how many almighty Gods is that exactly?I don’t think Jehovah has partners..I think he has servants and sons and subordinates.I don’t think Jehovah can learn obedience and be exalted,but apparently trinitarians do.

Jesus was “the Last Adam”..Now if one perfect man had the power to cause the fall of all men then another perfect man ,on Jehovah’s scales of absolute justice ,had the power to buy back the lives that the other had lost.Remember,God cannot die and you are robbing us of atonement,Mr. Trinitarian ..because you don’t believe Jesus REALLY died do you?Just a human nature but Jesus was REALLY alive somewhere right?If Jesus,all of him,wasn’t dead for three whole days in that tomb,not only are you preaching a different Jesus,but your atonement is null and void.

Jesus WAS absolutely a PERFECT SINLESS miraculously conceived human being while he was here.Able to be tempted and able to die.Because of his relying on Jehovah for everything,supplicating continually,and throwing his burdens on Jehovah,he was sinless and the flawless sacrifice for our redemption.He was the LAST I know for a fact that the heavens can't even contain the Most High,that the Most high is so holy that he can't LITERALLY live amongst unholy fact,so holy that his perfect flawless son has to mediate,yet you think this same Most High was tempted,relied upon and continually supplicated to himself and resided amongst the very men that are too unholy to even speak to him without mediation.Also,that he died.This is grossly unbiblical and made possible only by a pagan philosophy that turns one into three,that redefines son,and calls God mortal and assumes a soul cannot be destroyed or die,again,UNBIBLICAL.What it IS ,however,is philosophical and creedal.Again,if one perfect man who sinned was able to make every one of us lose our lives then another perfect man who didn't sin,but instead humbled himself under the mighty hand of HIS GOD,could buy them back!!THAT is Jehovah's scales of justice.I don't care about your own.After all,God can't die and souls aren't immortal till they're GIFTED immortality and Jesus wasn't until he was raised on the third day.Any other teaching is a different Jesus and a lie.Jehovah sent his son to die.Not himself.

2 Samuel 7:12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. 14 I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. 15 As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. 16 And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite.

Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

So now I can only ask you if Jehovah reproved himself and allowed men to abuse and kill himself or was it his son?I would also wonder if the one who was brought before the "Ancient of Days" WAS the "Ancient of Days" or was it his son and heir?How is this scenario a remote possibility if they are the SAME God and where is the holy spirit?Now did Jehovah will and grant a kingdom,as firstborn heir,to himself or to his son?Do you understand the concept of a father and a son?

I obviously can't read hebrew or greek,but what I can do is understand what "one" "sent" "servant" "given" different will" "nothing of my own initiative" "supplication" "tempted" "dead" "agent" "representative" and "father and son" mean.

I have yet to have a single "Christian" soul find me a passage where the "firstborn" of a group is not a MEMBER of that very group.Am I to assume something different for Jesus,that suddenly he isn't a part of God's very creation??OF COURSE NOT.After all,he DID call Jehovah his God and father and HIS God and father did testify from the very heavens that Jesus is a beloved son!And I'm supposed to turn off reasoning with a creed remote and turn down the volume with a philosophy button to believe these two very distinct personalities are the very same being.No thanks.I prefer to utilize my reasoning and listen carefully to Jehovah and Jesus's own testimonies.

Lots of reiiteration sure to abound ahead..caution:
(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
He doesn't say,I am going my way to the father ,who isn't REALLY greater than I am

..(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God
He didn't say "I'm about to lie here"

..(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
He didn't say "triune Jehovah"

..(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him

it doesn't say there is one triune God with father,son and holy ghost

Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever!

He didn't say "one of my two natures died"

Who did Peter say Jesus was ?
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16:16).
He didn't say "you are Jehovah God Almighty,one of three persons of Jehovah God Almighty.

Who did Jesus say his father was?
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God
He didn't say he was one of three persons in the same true God.

And I've yet to receive an honest response to this:"True God from True God" many True Gods is that?


  1. I recently came accross your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.


  2. Thank you so much Ruth!I appreciate it :-).