What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Romans 9:14-16)
All these texts indicate is that Jah is the ultimate judge and who are we to question His perfect justice and righteous decisions,as His love and mercy are toward those he finds worthy and his wrath,culminating in complete destruction in the Second Death,is perfectly warranted as well,due to impenitence and unrighteousness,as indicated throughout scripture.Romans 9 may not address WHY God has mercy and compassion on some and not others(only indicating that it is whoever he wills to) ,but it isn't like we don't have the rest of scripture to elaborate why he wills to have it on some and not on others..When these texts say that OUR will isn't considered here,it doesn't mean we don't possess free will,but that GOD is the ultimate judge as to who has abused it or used it well,and that we have NO say in the matter of how he will judge us.There are no more appeals and cries once that judgment has been made righteously and justly.But what we can know is that he judges according to our faith,repentance and conformity to his standards simply because scripture indicates these basic facts throughout its pages.Just to reiterate,again,Paul was anticipating the objections ISRAEL would have to being rejected due to their rebellion and sin,NOT the foreordination of individuals' eternal destiny.In other words,how dare such an impenitent people question God's disposition and lack of mercy toward them when they denied His very Holy One,his Christ!Obviously,he didn't ARBITRARILY reject them nor force then to either sacrifice their children to Molech in the past(He said it never entered his mind!) nor to reject the Messiah.In fact he pleads for anyone willing to start exercising faith in righteousness.
Let's examine the following to see who God has mercy upon and WHY:
Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. (Isaiah 55:7)
... be clothed with humility, for "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." (I Peter 5:5b)
Scriptures like these are exceedingly abundant in the bible..And only eisegesis and bias and throwing logic by the wayside could possibly result in a Calvinistic interpretation.It's time Calvinists stop interpreting texts "in light of Romans 9",(which Calvin has a skewed and dishonest interpretation of to begin with,as if it doesn't even have context),but instead let the entirety of scripture actually speak and make sure Romans 9 doesn't conform.And sure enough,it does!After all,all scripture works harmoniously and the entire bible shouldn't have to have a concept read into it that CLEARLY doesn't fit (but by the fallacious force of fallible men)just because certain people can't exegete one chapter in the bible in context(especially its OT context)and realistically.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:17-18)
Again,this text gives no indication that he hardens people who aren't disposed to being hardened by their own actions and stubbornness..In correlation with God's will working in concert with ours,there are a number of texts in Exodus that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart.So when GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart,He was doing something that gelled with the wickedness Pharaoh already harbored,and not some arbitrary task.He could've simply murdered Pharaoh,but instead he gave him every opportunity to repent,presenting scenarios where Pharaoh could either soften or harden his own heart.God allows for us what he sees in us,giving us over to evil if that's what he perceives in us.(Romans 1:24)As the great reader of hearts.. Of course,despite this golden opportunity,Pharaoh did not repent and God showed his power in him.God uses even wicked people for good sometimes and to showcase his power but that does not in any way equal foreordained salvation or condemnation for individuals based on a haphazard decision ultimately equalling a duck duck goose type of game/scenario.Again,even Paul could've rejected God's grace and molding and rebelled.But his heart accepted the gifts and mission, and so he was humble and faithful.And THAT is what will result in his eternal salvation,as opposed to God molding him for a specific purpose.Otherwise,Solomon would've been eternally unable to trangress to the point of loss of favor if God was so controlling over those He manipulates to accomplish certain spectacular purposes that He wills.But,alas,Solomon lost favor.And if I'm not mistaken,Calvinists don't believe if you're saved that that can ever be lost.Yet to say Solomon wasn't saved when he was actually in God's favor before he lost it,to me,sounds positively ridiculous.Scriptural clarity reiterates my sentiment,indicating that we MUST ENDURE in the race and to BEWARE that we don't fall even as we stand.What in the world are these warnings for in the world of Calvinism?Only reading a bias theology INTO texts could result in one believing that salvation cannot be lost if one unrepentantly transgresses after having been saved.When Jesus says things like "no one can snatch them(his sheep)out of my hand" ,it has to mean,in correlation with the rest of scripture,that the TRUE sheep will remain faithful and it is THOSE that cannot be snatched.Obviously,some sheep who aren't true CAN fall away.(Otherwise,many texts are meaningless.)That get "grafted out" after having been "grafted in".One cannot be "grafted in" if one isn't favored by God nor "grafted out" if one cannot lose that favor,which happens,according to scripture,due to unrepentance and unrighteousness that God never attributes to himself.Is God unrighteous?NEVER may that be said!
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory ... (Romans 9:19-23)
Let us see why God has some vessels for honor:
(II Timothy 2:20-21)-if anyone cleanses himself , he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
My explanation here is about the same as it was for the previous verses.The scripture doesn't indicate WHY some are used for honor and some for dishonor..only that they are.Given an enormous number of cues throughout the bible,the only conclusion I have is that he honors those in His justice who are humble and good and dishonors those in His perfect justice who are haughy and unrighteous.Paul says these things,again,anticipating the reaction of the nation of Israel to being rejected by God.But we know WHY it was rejected..Was it because God was partial and haphazard and arbitrary?Of course not!It was because they were impenitent and haughty and rejected,even killed, the Messiah.When people are haughty,unrepentant,unrighteous,rebellious,gross sinners..there should be NO question as to why God prepares their souls for destruction and their vessels for dishonor!Because they deserve it,plain and simply.On his scales of divine retributive justice,they are abhorrent for rejecting the Messiah,among other hideous things.Israel and the godless people in it(not all of them of course!) would never be able to justifiably inquire WHY God will cease to continue to show favoritism toward it(and even when He did,the individuals who weren't decent and obedient were NOT "saved").As for the vessels of mercy..again,why not look at scripture(the lot of it!) to determine upon whom He will have mercy and why.The riches of His glory will bless those who remain in His favor by cleansing themselves white in the blood of the lamb,not through works that cannot save,but through faith in the savior who God gave the power to make his servants clean through genuine faith that produces obedience from love.It is those who exercise that faith that God prepared beforehand for glory.Even IF God knew every individual that would remain faithful(and it would be pure conjecture to say so,as opposed to Him simply knowing the number that would),it would still not prove He incorporated force on them.That would be tyrannical and in opposition to clear texts that abound with statements of our ability to choose for ourselves what we will do.I for one wouldn't be comfortable on judgment day blaming God for my sin!Or having to answer why I thought he forced me to do everything that inspires his rage.
He doesn't arbitrarily destroy some and save others..it is conditional upon how we behave and who we are in our hearts,minds,and actions.So many scriptures indicate these simple truths that it is really amazing to me that this position actually has to be defended.
Couple random final thoughts:
God is not our puppetmaster unless he is truly responsible for everything that he said Satan was.Is Satan the father of the lie and Adam and Eve sinners or is God the liar and the sinner,although He indicated the former?And how could Satan be the father of the lie if Jehovah really is and made Satan lie?Why is Satan evil at all if he has a puppetmaster forcing him to do everything he does?And wouldn't that make God deserving of all the hatred we're supposed to have toward Satan?Why doesn't Satan curse God for forcing him to be deplorable and evil?Surely that would be a constant cursing if the Calvinist God weren't fictional.As opposed to a constant taunting of God,not for making him sadistic,but just because he IS sadistic,choosing to rebel against God in all his tragically abused free will.
I'm not negating the compelling power of God's holy spirit and how it can change minds and hearts and motivate Christians to follow God in a more awesome way.But if it cannot be resisted then how can it be grieved?And why is a sin against it unforgivable..why was it there to begin with if this "vessel for wrath" was chosen to never receive it?If one receives it,wouldn't that indicate that God can save him?And if one grieves it,what evidence is there that God forced him to?And wouldn't that indicate that salvation CAN be lost,contradicting Calvinist theology?
If you're a Calvinist,did you become one through scripture alone?Or did you read the smooth rhetoric of men and conclude that they somehow made sense in their exegesis of Romans 9?Did you then start reading your new theology INTO the rest of scripture because you somehow think it is justified to do so?If the entirety of scripture,with its pure unadulterated explicit statements(free from panged special pleading),contradicts your interpretation of Romans 9 and the few other Calvinist "strongholds",considering the size of the bible,shouldn't that at the very least make you skeptical and cautious?Did it ever occur to you to earnestly heed the OT context of the chapter and all the texts that expound upon this chapter,always proving we have choice,but that God will judge us according to his will in accordance with our choices that He never says He makes for us,which scripture lets us know is just and always good toward those good and culminates in a perishing of those who aren't?Never at all indicating he forces anyone to either be good or be evil.EVEN IF he molds them to fulfill a specific will,we have evidence whoever he uses can absolutely choose their own ultimate course of good or bad and that THAT is what will equal eternal salvation or eternal perishing.Because that is how he chooses upon whom he will have mercy and whom he will prepare for either glory or destruction.
SO much more could be said but I'll leave it at that for now.
Showing posts with label Romans 9. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Romans 9. Show all posts
Saturday, January 16, 2010
Tuesday, January 12, 2010
Romans 9 for Calvinists part 1 of 2
This blog was entirely inspired by this great page that explains Romans chapter 9 beautifully.
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/romans_9.html
Right off the bat,I am not claiming to have something new to offer here..I remain perplexed at the narrow minded and blindly biased interpretations of these texts that the Calvinists present.Here I am anyway to go over some points that I hope will help people who want to make a defense against Calvinists and for Calvinists who have probably already heard similar or identical points but chose to ignore them.
First,we have to recognize the context of Romans chapter nine,as well as the OT passages which these scriptures reference in order to obtain an honest exegesis,as opposed to a manmade eisegesis.What we discover,in context,is a chapter irrefutably about a NATION'S rejection(Israel) after God had used them to produce the Messiah,as had been promised to Abraham.Anticipating the moans and groans of this nation that many probably thought should be saved simply because of the favoritism God has shown it in times past,Paul here emphasizes God's right to reject a nation that has been impenitent and haughty and foolish,regardless of ANYTHING the individuals therein may say or do to insist that they SHOULD be saved because of God's mercy and acceptance and blessings for them in times past.Israel's reaction would likely be like spoiled children who have been bombarded with gifts and later think they should continue to be "just because" even though they behave like brats,given our human tendency to desire favor and blessings no matter what we've done to prove we don't deserve them.This chapter is all about God's absolute right to determine the acceptance or rejection,the condemnation or the salvation,of a person or nation no matter how adamantly one may feel or think one deserves the ultimate blessings and kingdom of God.
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Romans 9:1-8)
Here Paul is letting us know that all Israelites cannot be members of Christ's body or of "spiritual Israel" just because they are descendants of fleshy Israel.God will determine in his own perfect judgement who will receive a blessed inheritance based upon one's being declared righteous by faith and penitence in Christ.There is positively nothing in scripture to indicate that just because God molds and chooses an individual or nation for a specific extraordinary purpose that that means God will be the puppetmaster of that one forever and make sure he is saved.Solomon was used to compose 3 OT books and to build a glorious temple etc..but because Solomon was unrepentant in certain wicked acts,he lost favor.And ,again,there is absolutely nothing in scripture to indicate God made him do these wicked acts and then cause him to cease to ever repent of them.The whole notion is ridiculous.And I'm basing this fact on scriptural language,clarity OF that language and repetitive testaments to the truth that we have free will we can use in concert with God's will,that God is impartial,and would find anyone who isn't an abomination.To say God ISN'T impartial would mean he doesn't live up to his own standards of what is decent and just and that scriptural language is to be regarded as moot..Someone like Paul being chosen for all the marvels he accomplished by God's power doesn't mean that if he had become overcome by the world in some fashion and unwilling to humble himself in returning to God's ways that he wouldn't have been condemned,even though God has obviously used him in remarkable ways!Everything in scripture indicates that what we do by our own choices,independent of God's supposed Calvinistic merciless force,will result in his favor or not,in his spirit working in concert with our will or not.Even if he has molded us to accomplish something pertaining to his will,we can STILL,as the bible says,fall away.Or be "grafted out."(Romans 11:17-24)..Entirely dependent upon our faith and obedience(or not) and God's righteous judgment of our lasting conformity(or not) to his fair standards.
Couple brief examples of how if one holds to a Calvinist interpretation,scripture become meaningless:
James 1:13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.
If God doesn't try anyone with evil and people's desires aren't always God's desires(unless God is unrighteous ..never may that be said!),according to these texts,how can you say God tries who he wishes with evil and gives everyones' desires to them ,forcing them to sin.All the text itself says is that they are our OWN desires,belonging to no one else prior to us heaping them upon us.Calvinist interpretations are simply eisegesis in the highest order of the word.
Let's go to another text in James:
James 4:8:Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you indecisive ones.
So this text ,as clearly as is possible,is a great example of how OUR free will in drawing close to God compels God in his love to reciprocate the intimacy,appreciative I am quite sure of some people's spiritual need being cultivated and addressed.God doesn't send invitations throughout his holy word to a few people while the rest of everyone sits reading and hoping and praying while there is just NO hope whatsoever.Frankly,that would make God like a parent who has 10 children but doesn't care a thing for most of them and in fact will burn them up in an oven just because he likes to play sadistic duck duck goose.(or if you believe in the orthodox greek philosophically inspired hell doctrine,never letting them be burned up at all but rather letting them continuously burn forever mercilessly,as if God is infinitely sadistic and the anger he has will be forever even though he said it was temporary.)Again,God is not unrighteous and wicked.Satan and some people are.So let us not attribute the characteristics of the devil to our God of love and mercy and impartiality.Absurd!
For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:9-13)
In context,I can't really see anyone being able to honestly argue that this chapter isn't speaking of NATIONS..which is exactly what Esau and Jacob represent here..NOT individual men and whether or not God ultimately saves them regardless of their actions,dependent upon his fictional partiality.If this were about the individual,it woud be a failed prophecy,(something inexplicable scripture wise!) considering Esau did NOT serve Jacob but, if anything,Jacob served Esau,bowing before him 7 times,offering him his family and possessions,etc..just so his brother wouldn't avenge the birthright he stole from him.I'm not denying that God can use and mold people to fit his will(still,not always resulting in their salvation unless they obeyed and served God righteously in faith),but this simply isn't about him doing that with these two men.Examining the OT references should put that to rest.As well as the fact that "the older DID NOT serve the younger!"A common Calvinist objection might be that even if it is pertaining to nations that God's sovereignty over them displays his absolute sovereignty and partiality even more strongly,but again,this ISN'T about God determining the ultimate SALVATION of individuals in these nations,or else everyone in Israel has eternal life and everyone in many other nations can't.Is that the case?Of course not!It is about God using a particular nation for an exceptional purpose,resulting in the birth and death and resurrection of our great Lord Jesus,and then that same nation(though not every individual therein) losing his favor because of it's continuous rebellion.No way would Paul have written these texts and expected anyone to assume they meant the literal two men when the Old Testament,which the new testament doesn't contradict but rather reiterates,from which Paul quoted explains everything:
But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If all is well, why am I like this?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said to her:"Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger." (Genesis 25:22-23)
So Jacob and Esau represented nations.This has to be one of the simplest concepts imaginable.The narrow minded and biased Calvinist interpretation confounds me.
So in context,we've ALREADY established
1.This chapter is about nations,not individuals.
2.It would be a FAILED prophecy if it WERE about individuals because Esau DID NOT SERVE Jacob but rather the NATION that descended from Esau served the NATION that descended from Jacob.
3.In their OT context,the meaning is kindergarten,SIMPLY gathered.
How anyone could take these facts and assume these scriptures are in relation to the foreordination of individual mens' eternal salvation or eternal death is beyond me.If they've studied the facts,the context,and the references.
Even further:
The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. "I have loved you," says the LORD. "Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. "Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness." Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: "They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever. (Malachi 1:1-4)
It really doesn't get more succint than that!Esau is identified as Edom..a nation,correlating with Romans chapter nine ,which is about NATIONS.Just to recap,if you think this is literally applied to these two men,it becomes a failed prophecy and the OT context becomes moot in your interpretation which ultimately equals eisegesis,considering Paul wouldn't rearrange the OT texts to introduce a whole new concept in the NT,which is quoting from the Old!That would be eisegesis,again.
As for Jacob(Israel) being loved, and Esau being hated..All that means is that Isreal was ESPECIALLY favored and Edom was less favored,not that God literally hated every person in Edom or even the nation.Let's examine a text to help clarify this:
Luke 14:26:If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
In scripture to hate someone or something sometimes means simply to love less.If we REALLY hated our own family ,God would reject us.So it HAS to mean that we love Christ MORE than our family but we would still have to love our family,even though the term "hate" is used.This is also how it is used here in Romans.Jah loved Edom less than Israel.Understandably,as Israel would bring about the promised seed,our savior.
To quote the website linked at the top:
"If we look closely at Romans 9 and its referenced passages, we can observe where God has manipulated nations in His grand scheme, or judicially hardened rebellious individuals. Yet, He still allowed the ultimate fate of both nation and individual to be chosen through either penitent obedience or stubborn disobedience.God's unconditional election only applied to the role of nations in producing the Messiah, not the salvation of individuals."
I'll leave you with this irrefutable compelling text:
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
You can't reconcile these texts nor too many others to count with Calvinist theology without special pleading of the most desperate tragic kind.
More later.
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/romans_9.html
Right off the bat,I am not claiming to have something new to offer here..I remain perplexed at the narrow minded and blindly biased interpretations of these texts that the Calvinists present.Here I am anyway to go over some points that I hope will help people who want to make a defense against Calvinists and for Calvinists who have probably already heard similar or identical points but chose to ignore them.
First,we have to recognize the context of Romans chapter nine,as well as the OT passages which these scriptures reference in order to obtain an honest exegesis,as opposed to a manmade eisegesis.What we discover,in context,is a chapter irrefutably about a NATION'S rejection(Israel) after God had used them to produce the Messiah,as had been promised to Abraham.Anticipating the moans and groans of this nation that many probably thought should be saved simply because of the favoritism God has shown it in times past,Paul here emphasizes God's right to reject a nation that has been impenitent and haughty and foolish,regardless of ANYTHING the individuals therein may say or do to insist that they SHOULD be saved because of God's mercy and acceptance and blessings for them in times past.Israel's reaction would likely be like spoiled children who have been bombarded with gifts and later think they should continue to be "just because" even though they behave like brats,given our human tendency to desire favor and blessings no matter what we've done to prove we don't deserve them.This chapter is all about God's absolute right to determine the acceptance or rejection,the condemnation or the salvation,of a person or nation no matter how adamantly one may feel or think one deserves the ultimate blessings and kingdom of God.
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Romans 9:1-8)
Here Paul is letting us know that all Israelites cannot be members of Christ's body or of "spiritual Israel" just because they are descendants of fleshy Israel.God will determine in his own perfect judgement who will receive a blessed inheritance based upon one's being declared righteous by faith and penitence in Christ.There is positively nothing in scripture to indicate that just because God molds and chooses an individual or nation for a specific extraordinary purpose that that means God will be the puppetmaster of that one forever and make sure he is saved.Solomon was used to compose 3 OT books and to build a glorious temple etc..but because Solomon was unrepentant in certain wicked acts,he lost favor.And ,again,there is absolutely nothing in scripture to indicate God made him do these wicked acts and then cause him to cease to ever repent of them.The whole notion is ridiculous.And I'm basing this fact on scriptural language,clarity OF that language and repetitive testaments to the truth that we have free will we can use in concert with God's will,that God is impartial,and would find anyone who isn't an abomination.To say God ISN'T impartial would mean he doesn't live up to his own standards of what is decent and just and that scriptural language is to be regarded as moot..Someone like Paul being chosen for all the marvels he accomplished by God's power doesn't mean that if he had become overcome by the world in some fashion and unwilling to humble himself in returning to God's ways that he wouldn't have been condemned,even though God has obviously used him in remarkable ways!Everything in scripture indicates that what we do by our own choices,independent of God's supposed Calvinistic merciless force,will result in his favor or not,in his spirit working in concert with our will or not.Even if he has molded us to accomplish something pertaining to his will,we can STILL,as the bible says,fall away.Or be "grafted out."(Romans 11:17-24)..Entirely dependent upon our faith and obedience(or not) and God's righteous judgment of our lasting conformity(or not) to his fair standards.
Couple brief examples of how if one holds to a Calvinist interpretation,scripture become meaningless:
James 1:13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.
If God doesn't try anyone with evil and people's desires aren't always God's desires(unless God is unrighteous ..never may that be said!),according to these texts,how can you say God tries who he wishes with evil and gives everyones' desires to them ,forcing them to sin.All the text itself says is that they are our OWN desires,belonging to no one else prior to us heaping them upon us.Calvinist interpretations are simply eisegesis in the highest order of the word.
Let's go to another text in James:
James 4:8:Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you indecisive ones.
So this text ,as clearly as is possible,is a great example of how OUR free will in drawing close to God compels God in his love to reciprocate the intimacy,appreciative I am quite sure of some people's spiritual need being cultivated and addressed.God doesn't send invitations throughout his holy word to a few people while the rest of everyone sits reading and hoping and praying while there is just NO hope whatsoever.Frankly,that would make God like a parent who has 10 children but doesn't care a thing for most of them and in fact will burn them up in an oven just because he likes to play sadistic duck duck goose.(or if you believe in the orthodox greek philosophically inspired hell doctrine,never letting them be burned up at all but rather letting them continuously burn forever mercilessly,as if God is infinitely sadistic and the anger he has will be forever even though he said it was temporary.)Again,God is not unrighteous and wicked.Satan and some people are.So let us not attribute the characteristics of the devil to our God of love and mercy and impartiality.Absurd!
For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:9-13)
In context,I can't really see anyone being able to honestly argue that this chapter isn't speaking of NATIONS..which is exactly what Esau and Jacob represent here..NOT individual men and whether or not God ultimately saves them regardless of their actions,dependent upon his fictional partiality.If this were about the individual,it woud be a failed prophecy,(something inexplicable scripture wise!) considering Esau did NOT serve Jacob but, if anything,Jacob served Esau,bowing before him 7 times,offering him his family and possessions,etc..just so his brother wouldn't avenge the birthright he stole from him.I'm not denying that God can use and mold people to fit his will(still,not always resulting in their salvation unless they obeyed and served God righteously in faith),but this simply isn't about him doing that with these two men.Examining the OT references should put that to rest.As well as the fact that "the older DID NOT serve the younger!"A common Calvinist objection might be that even if it is pertaining to nations that God's sovereignty over them displays his absolute sovereignty and partiality even more strongly,but again,this ISN'T about God determining the ultimate SALVATION of individuals in these nations,or else everyone in Israel has eternal life and everyone in many other nations can't.Is that the case?Of course not!It is about God using a particular nation for an exceptional purpose,resulting in the birth and death and resurrection of our great Lord Jesus,and then that same nation(though not every individual therein) losing his favor because of it's continuous rebellion.No way would Paul have written these texts and expected anyone to assume they meant the literal two men when the Old Testament,which the new testament doesn't contradict but rather reiterates,from which Paul quoted explains everything:
But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If all is well, why am I like this?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said to her:"Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger." (Genesis 25:22-23)
So Jacob and Esau represented nations.This has to be one of the simplest concepts imaginable.The narrow minded and biased Calvinist interpretation confounds me.
So in context,we've ALREADY established
1.This chapter is about nations,not individuals.
2.It would be a FAILED prophecy if it WERE about individuals because Esau DID NOT SERVE Jacob but rather the NATION that descended from Esau served the NATION that descended from Jacob.
3.In their OT context,the meaning is kindergarten,SIMPLY gathered.
How anyone could take these facts and assume these scriptures are in relation to the foreordination of individual mens' eternal salvation or eternal death is beyond me.If they've studied the facts,the context,and the references.
Even further:
The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. "I have loved you," says the LORD. "Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. "Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness." Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: "They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever. (Malachi 1:1-4)
It really doesn't get more succint than that!Esau is identified as Edom..a nation,correlating with Romans chapter nine ,which is about NATIONS.Just to recap,if you think this is literally applied to these two men,it becomes a failed prophecy and the OT context becomes moot in your interpretation which ultimately equals eisegesis,considering Paul wouldn't rearrange the OT texts to introduce a whole new concept in the NT,which is quoting from the Old!That would be eisegesis,again.
As for Jacob(Israel) being loved, and Esau being hated..All that means is that Isreal was ESPECIALLY favored and Edom was less favored,not that God literally hated every person in Edom or even the nation.Let's examine a text to help clarify this:
Luke 14:26:If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
In scripture to hate someone or something sometimes means simply to love less.If we REALLY hated our own family ,God would reject us.So it HAS to mean that we love Christ MORE than our family but we would still have to love our family,even though the term "hate" is used.This is also how it is used here in Romans.Jah loved Edom less than Israel.Understandably,as Israel would bring about the promised seed,our savior.
To quote the website linked at the top:
"If we look closely at Romans 9 and its referenced passages, we can observe where God has manipulated nations in His grand scheme, or judicially hardened rebellious individuals. Yet, He still allowed the ultimate fate of both nation and individual to be chosen through either penitent obedience or stubborn disobedience.God's unconditional election only applied to the role of nations in producing the Messiah, not the salvation of individuals."
I'll leave you with this irrefutable compelling text:
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
You can't reconcile these texts nor too many others to count with Calvinist theology without special pleading of the most desperate tragic kind.
More later.
Friday, October 2, 2009
Romans 9..Calvinist's mother's milk.
This man believes in the trinity and orthodox hellfire misintepretation but I still respect this competent exegesis of Romans 9.There are other possibilities I have heard before that are sensible as well..anything that lines up with the entirety of the scriptures and God's definition of and revelation of his own personality is obviously superior to the Calvinist one.I recommend cutting and pasting the url and watching it on youtube as it will be bigger there.It's one of those big vids that consumes your screen ;)..One thumb up for exposing and refuting Calvinism.One thumb down for not being able to exegete hellfire passages the same way you do Romans 9.(in their OT context,for heaven's sake)(to the guy in this vid)
addendum:Btw,I have 2 new Romans 9 exegesis blogs from January 2010.Read parts 1 and 2 for my take on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msu-dtnge5M
As I watched this,I was reminded how small and narrow minded the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 actually is.It is very similar to hellfire adherents inability to interpret texts in their OT context that CLEARLY explains what it all means.Obviously,this will not be good enough for most Calvinists assuming they "make sure of all things" before adopting their erroneoous theology.For those Calvinists who say that the texts should just be read straight through and believed by what they say on the surface and the entire bible interpreted in light of that, I can only wonder why in the world you think one chapter in the bible that is explained in context like this guy competently does here should make the entire bible's constant revelations of God's impartiality and awe inspiring awesome personality moot.Of COURSE he has wrath but it is only temporary and against willful unrepentant sinners detrimentally abusing their free will,always.As a Calvinist,you are no longer able to interpret the bible straightforwardly like you brag about doing in Romans 9!Every text you behold becomes "well,in light of Romans 9" instead of just simple truth.I will provide a few very sarcastic examples for those who can stomach sarcasm now and then to get a point across.If not,skip ahead and save yourself the trouble of taking offense ;)
Deut 30:19:I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live..Oh wait!I have already chosen for you so just go about your business and assume you're saved..if you aren't,sorry 'bout that!My fault!All these declarations I make that you have a choice are a SHOW,a facade.Not sure why I keep telling you to repent and that you have the choice but no..I will repent FOR you and make the choice on your behalf.Sit back and let me do all the work while you just skip about hoping you're like Jacob and not Esau!
Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD because I didn't let them because I am sadistically partial EVEN though I SAID I epitomize love and am impartial .I just want to see some folks burn(forever!) because it magnifies my holiness according to some men who didn't really get this notion from the book I wrote for them.But ,then,don't say I didn't warn you about false teachers now!My holiness is in fact magnified by ELIMINATING evil and "making all things new",not by preserving the worst kind imaginable into all of eternity.But don't let me telling you the wicked will be consumed and become ashes make you think they won't be alive forever in flames!Instead,let traditon,symbolism and manmade philosophy become your reality over my clear testimony!
Jeremiah 32:35:they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination..Erase that!Not only did it enter my mind,but I decreed it and am so pleased to see my holiness magnified in this absurd display of sadism and horror.It makes the good I will decree shine that much brighter!Praise my haphazard sadism and be glad that I was partial enough to choose you for NO reason whatsoever and burn innocent children for my good pleasure even though it disgusts me..Makes sense,huh?Did I mention I am haphazard and partial?
James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.Hold up!Let me rearrange."God will MAKE you draw close to him and purify your hearts.You cannot do it of your own initiative"
Eve SAID she was deceived by the serpent when in all actuality,she was deceived by me and then sinned because I made her.Poor Eve.She's just a pawn in my game and though all evidence points to the fact that she had the choice to partake of the fruit or not,ignore that evidence!Obviously,she didn't.And then she didn't become ashes at all..she's still burning where worms never die..worms said to be on corpses in Is 66:24 but don't believe that!They're on souls burning alive!
Texts like these(minus the sarcasm of the Calvinist God's rearrangement) are endless and should not be interpreted in light of men's flawed exegesis of a few texts that have superior interpretations like the ones presented in the vid above.Calvinism truly concerns me because the God of Calvinism is NOT the God of true Christianity.
Acts 10:34 For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. (It doesn't say God is partial and in every nation the man that he makes fear him will be acceptable..does it?)The Calvinist rearrangement of texts rivals the trinitarian!I'm not sure who would win in the "make it fit" competition!
God DESIRES all men to attain to repentance.That is honestly what he desires.As a Calvinist,your arrogant perception is an atrocious attack on God's true desires.Let Him be as merciful, loving, impartial, and just as he wants to be.Stop misrepresenting him and extending the wrath he has against sin into all of eternity where the kingdom is supposed to reign with NO sin or death,as opposed to sinners being preserved in an "eternal dying process".A kingdom where whoever CHOSE life and used their free will according to God's purposes will live forever in benevolent conditions without arrogantly perceiving they got there because God played duck duck goose and decided to burn others who weren't as fortunate in the game for all of eternity.If that makes you feel good,see a therapist.If you can live peacefully and blissfully in your arrogance with people you loved burning alive forever,see a therapist.
Btw,this is a plea to accept truth and an attack on giant misrepresentations of God and not on Calvinist individuals who have been misled.
addendum:Btw,I have 2 new Romans 9 exegesis blogs from January 2010.Read parts 1 and 2 for my take on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msu-dtnge5M
As I watched this,I was reminded how small and narrow minded the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 actually is.It is very similar to hellfire adherents inability to interpret texts in their OT context that CLEARLY explains what it all means.Obviously,this will not be good enough for most Calvinists assuming they "make sure of all things" before adopting their erroneoous theology.For those Calvinists who say that the texts should just be read straight through and believed by what they say on the surface and the entire bible interpreted in light of that, I can only wonder why in the world you think one chapter in the bible that is explained in context like this guy competently does here should make the entire bible's constant revelations of God's impartiality and awe inspiring awesome personality moot.Of COURSE he has wrath but it is only temporary and against willful unrepentant sinners detrimentally abusing their free will,always.As a Calvinist,you are no longer able to interpret the bible straightforwardly like you brag about doing in Romans 9!Every text you behold becomes "well,in light of Romans 9" instead of just simple truth.I will provide a few very sarcastic examples for those who can stomach sarcasm now and then to get a point across.If not,skip ahead and save yourself the trouble of taking offense ;)
Deut 30:19:I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live..Oh wait!I have already chosen for you so just go about your business and assume you're saved..if you aren't,sorry 'bout that!My fault!All these declarations I make that you have a choice are a SHOW,a facade.Not sure why I keep telling you to repent and that you have the choice but no..I will repent FOR you and make the choice on your behalf.Sit back and let me do all the work while you just skip about hoping you're like Jacob and not Esau!
Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD because I didn't let them because I am sadistically partial EVEN though I SAID I epitomize love and am impartial .I just want to see some folks burn(forever!) because it magnifies my holiness according to some men who didn't really get this notion from the book I wrote for them.But ,then,don't say I didn't warn you about false teachers now!My holiness is in fact magnified by ELIMINATING evil and "making all things new",not by preserving the worst kind imaginable into all of eternity.But don't let me telling you the wicked will be consumed and become ashes make you think they won't be alive forever in flames!Instead,let traditon,symbolism and manmade philosophy become your reality over my clear testimony!
Jeremiah 32:35:they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination..Erase that!Not only did it enter my mind,but I decreed it and am so pleased to see my holiness magnified in this absurd display of sadism and horror.It makes the good I will decree shine that much brighter!Praise my haphazard sadism and be glad that I was partial enough to choose you for NO reason whatsoever and burn innocent children for my good pleasure even though it disgusts me..Makes sense,huh?Did I mention I am haphazard and partial?
James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.Hold up!Let me rearrange."God will MAKE you draw close to him and purify your hearts.You cannot do it of your own initiative"
Eve SAID she was deceived by the serpent when in all actuality,she was deceived by me and then sinned because I made her.Poor Eve.She's just a pawn in my game and though all evidence points to the fact that she had the choice to partake of the fruit or not,ignore that evidence!Obviously,she didn't.And then she didn't become ashes at all..she's still burning where worms never die..worms said to be on corpses in Is 66:24 but don't believe that!They're on souls burning alive!
Texts like these(minus the sarcasm of the Calvinist God's rearrangement) are endless and should not be interpreted in light of men's flawed exegesis of a few texts that have superior interpretations like the ones presented in the vid above.Calvinism truly concerns me because the God of Calvinism is NOT the God of true Christianity.
Acts 10:34 For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. (It doesn't say God is partial and in every nation the man that he makes fear him will be acceptable..does it?)The Calvinist rearrangement of texts rivals the trinitarian!I'm not sure who would win in the "make it fit" competition!
God DESIRES all men to attain to repentance.That is honestly what he desires.As a Calvinist,your arrogant perception is an atrocious attack on God's true desires.Let Him be as merciful, loving, impartial, and just as he wants to be.Stop misrepresenting him and extending the wrath he has against sin into all of eternity where the kingdom is supposed to reign with NO sin or death,as opposed to sinners being preserved in an "eternal dying process".A kingdom where whoever CHOSE life and used their free will according to God's purposes will live forever in benevolent conditions without arrogantly perceiving they got there because God played duck duck goose and decided to burn others who weren't as fortunate in the game for all of eternity.If that makes you feel good,see a therapist.If you can live peacefully and blissfully in your arrogance with people you loved burning alive forever,see a therapist.
Btw,this is a plea to accept truth and an attack on giant misrepresentations of God and not on Calvinist individuals who have been misled.
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