Tuesday, March 31, 2009


How bringing our holy Lord's name into something THIS disgusting,repulsive and demonic is acceptable to so many who claim to be Christian is BEYOND ME.The times for such willful ignorance and trying to wrap disgusting things in pretty packages is OVER.Quit touching the unclean thing.Be no part of the world.You can't drink from the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons.Satan keeps disguising himself as an angel of light and too many are buying it.Bringing Christ's name into this unabashed filth is UNACCEPTABLE imo.

Oh and another point,do you think there is a POSSIBILITY that Jehovah had to emphasize his being ONE because of the triune gods people worshipped all through history?Do you think it is POSSIBLE that he may,in fact,be one as opposed to triune,which means three?Unless you think God is deceptive(and he's not!),he is ,in fact,one,not three in one,because he never said he was three in one or even gave a hint that he might be!Let's face it..the bible is HUGE..certainly large enough for him to have somewhere stated his triunity if it were so because,again,he loves to be truthful and clear about who he is so that we may worship him in truth.He is love,after all.And those who say that the holy spirit reveals his triunity and not the bible so much(yes I've been told this) then how come Jehovah,through that SAME holy spirit, wouldn't reveal it in the bible?And if it was,there certainly would've been no need for a creed that redefined son of God into true God from true God.After all,that's two true Gods.And we know Jehovah is THE SOLE true God,for his son Jesus told us so.As if Jehovah hadn't already.One means one.Son means son.And the trinity is lie.

Trinity stupidity(this time it's MY stupidity)

As will become obvious,I wrote this blog before I disassociated from the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am cutting down on youtube witnessing.I thought if I stated it in a blog then I wouldn't go back on it.I would never want to repel anyone with my sometimes sarcastic nature or bold way of refuting the trinity or hell,the two lies I hate the most,so for the most part,I will stop.I've yet to experience one single person who was willing to reason or say "wow..that's a good point" unless they already believe like I do anyway.In the field ministry,which I have abandoned for years now as an inactive Jw,ppl were much more willing to reason and even study ,usually until someone's opposition would get to them.I can't even imagine being a trinitarian..I would have to scratch my head the whole time I prayed and redefine too many words and twist too many scriptures..it would be madness!I remember asking my pappaw who was a charismatic baptist preacher when I was a little girl why Jesus was God if he was God's son and he told me to just have faith.I remember showing him john 3:16 and saying something like "look Pappaw he sent his son and he says those not believing will die..will they die or will they burn forever?"..Even as a child,I understood these two simple truths and the way my pappaw would sweat and get all hyped up while he preached about hell etc..it scared me.I thought he would have a heart attack and I loved him more than anything.He was like a father to me.I still have and use his KJV that he left me..He had been friends with some Jehovah's witnesses who came and ate dinner with him and my mammaw on occasion and he loved JW's.I also discovered some very telling marks by pen in his bible.They were the ones about Jesus birth and the star leading the wise men(maybe he was contemplating the Christmas star and how it might not be a good thing?),Matthew 10:28 about the soul being destroyed along with the body,1 corinthians 14:27,28 about speaking in tongues,1 corinthians 15:27,28(which disproves the trinity),and rev 21 about the new heaven and the new earth.There were many more marked,but those are just a few..I basically think the JW's may have gotten to him,in a good way.There certainly was never a more selfless man..I remember one time he told me to open a drawer he had in his bedroom and it was full of dollar bills..there must've been AT least a hundred of them..he had been putting them in there when he had spare money just to one day see me smile about it.I wasted it all on babydolls and candy bars and Dr. Pepper and junk lol..Anyway,I pray for him a lot and hope to see him in the resurrection,him and my mammaw both,who was equally loving and selfless..Before she died,she and I used to joke about paradise and heaven.I told her she could watch me playing with polar bears and koalas and enjoying the beaches while she floated on a cloud in heaven.She admitted peace on earth would be wonderful but she said she was tired of toiling and didn't want to restore the earth or build houses lol...She did listen to the kingdom melodies cd that I gave her sometimes before she would go to sleep though..she liked the one about Ruth and Naomi.She used to ask me to sing it for her sometimes,which I'm sure she soon regretted as I am no Aguilera.Her favorite scripture was John 1:1 and she COULD NOT get past it.I'm not even sure she could've defined the trinity the right way to be honest..I mean who WOULDN'T be confused by such nonsense?

"I don't have three Gods just one!Three people who are each God but just one!"


And THE single MOST amazing thing..if you confess that Jesus is God's son and not God the son,in an orthodox Christian's mind,you will BURN baby BURN..and not just for a few minutes,or a few hours,or a few days,but FOR A LITERAL ETERNITY.Because apparently they think God is a maniac and the new heavens and new earth will definitely need a place of torment beneath em to keep em holy.As if someone who is voluntarily good can't be good without that kinda threat to their souls !SOOO frustrating.It blasphemes the holy and good name of God and it makes me angry.God is love.Those are three words that traditionalists need to meditate upon in a SERIOUS manner.Of course God has wrath for sin.Of course there can be no unholy unrepentant unloving rebellious sinner in the kingdom of God..that's why he will exterminate like pests any one like that.He doesn't wanna see it,much less hear it screaming for ever.

This is a schizophrenic sarcastic retarded "poem" I compiled and who knows who is speaking when..it's as confusing as revelation lol..if you aren't in the mood you may roll your eyes and close the page..anyways................
If he's one how is he three
If he's three how is he one
Stop lying mathematically
and redefining son
If he's greater how's he equal
If he's God,how'd he die?
If a movie has a sequel
does it come around the same time?
If he can't be likened to man how is he a man?
If he's omniscient how in the world can
he not know the day nor the revelation,in 1:1
If God can't have a father how is he a son?
If he's a spirit how is he still flesh?
And how he learned obedience is anyone's guess
Why did he have to be given everything?
God should not have to be given a thing!
Have you ever heard of anyone 200 percent?
Well now you have and don't ask why just have faith in it
When you hear "brought forth" "beginning" and "firstborn"
Be sure to redefine those simple little terms
Or else you'll burn forever with the simple little worms
Remember now that son doesn't mean what it always does
God is different you see and three it now means one
The holy spirit is conspicuously absent in all the visions of us
But don't ask anyone why..just walk by faith and trust.
God is "true God from true God" and it doesn't have to make sense
Later we'll add another and still say we're monotheists.
If there seems to be proof the trinity is bogus,remember the phrase "human nature"
and preach about hell and locusts and maybe noone will notice the paper
That the words "son and greater and dead and tempted and possessed" are written upon
Maybe distract a truth seeker with lies about hell and Jesus worship songs!
Heir,agent,and,again,son they don't mean a thing
Pay more attention to John 1:1 and stop it when you think!
And lest you start imagining that Jesus has a God more great
Turn right now and read on repeat John 20:28
And when Jesus is called God it means he is Jehovah see
And don't pretend there is such a thing as Hebrew law of agency.
When angels are called gods and kings are worshiped it has to be ignored!
Pretend it didn't happen and say Jesus has to be God!
And if a JW ever knocks on your door
they preach a different Jesus so their gospel is abhorred!
They say Jesus is God's own son
That he's king and messiah so you should run!

And if they tell you Jesus really died then they are lying for he is God!
if they tell you Jesus was really tempted they are lying for he is God!
If they tell you Jesus was REALLY a man on earth then they are lying for he is God!
Who cares what the bible says..texts can be twisted or blown off
Tradition and philosophy are the bee's knees
And Christmas is my favorite day,goodbye JW freaks!
Ya have so much to learn!
Don't ask me questions ya heretic.Burn baby burn!
I burned my Beduhn book I thought he was a scholar
If I ever see him around I'll choke him by the collar
He said the NWT was reliable and sound
What an idiot Satan wrote that book I've found
John 1:1 John 20:28 John 8:58..how many texts you willing to shun
To keep believing Jesus is the son of God and not God the son!!

haha,had to vent.I know it's muddled and childish but so am I sometimes ;-/.

I saw this as a comment on a youtube video..I don't know who made it..I forgot but I thought it was funny:

Jesus : My Father greater than i
Christians: Jesus and God are equal

Jesus : I can of myself do nothing
Christians : Jesus is as sovereign and as powerful as God

Jesus : I do not know of the Hour
Christians : Jesus is all knowing

Jesus : why do you call me good...?
Christians : Okay we will call you God then

Now I'll add a few of my own:
Jesus:Don't call me good.No one is good but one,God
Christians:Jesus is good therefore he has to be God.
Jesus:I have a God.
Christians:Jesus is that God he has.
Jesus:my will is different than God's on occasion
Christians:One person of a godhead had a different will than at least 1/3 of the godhead because he was 100 percent man as well remember..don't forget that that human limitation absolutely hindered that Almightiness on occasion.Cause remember if you are 100 percent God as well as 100 percent man,not only isn't it a fairy tale,but human natures can beat God natures sometimes apparently.It HAS to be that way to fit this pesky creed that spells out S.A.L.V.A.T.I.O.N.After all,they're all coequal. and consubstantial,which the bible is REAL clear about.
Jesus:I can do nothing of my own initiative but only what I behold my father doing.
Christians:hmm..he must be God.
Jews:he is making himself equal to God!
Christians:better believe those Jews!After all,they said he was demon possessed and breaking the sabbath so they're always right!
Thomas:My Lord and my God!
Christians:God's agents and representatives and mighty beings have NEVER been called gods or God so Jesus is Jehovah!

Peter:you are the Christ,son of the living God
Christians:he meant that Jesus was God ya see
Disciples:puzzled that Jesus could do what they thought only God could do
Christians:see...they knew he was God!
Kellie:Jesus died
trinitarian:umm..one of his two natures died,but he wasn't really dead
Kellie:Where's your atonement
trinitarian:Jesus died
trinitarian:he did but he didn't
Kellie:Oh I see...makes PERFECT sense.

more ranting :-/

Yep I've heard one too many times that the worship of Jesus proves he is God.

Imagine I'm a big boss of a big company.I hire someone first to come in and do everything for me with my direction and supervision of course.I'm behind the scenes as the person I hired first hires others and accomplishes assigned tasks by my standards and appointment.Do I ever stop being boss?Does the person I use become me?Do I stop the other employees from revering him the same they revere me?Do they stop revering me?Do they forget my name because he exists?Do I stop appreciating and needing them and wanting their appreciation and reverence.?Do I stop being the one with the rewards ,the paychecks,the power to fire and hire?If the first person I hired understood that I was the BEST BOSS IN THE WORLD and he ,in fact,was the best employee in the world,do you really think he would forget everything I have given him or give me credit for his promotions and abundance?Again,does he BECOME ME because he does the things I tell him to do and reflects my personality and ways of doing things because not only does he appreciate and love me,but he knows that I know best.And when he behaves as I tell him to behave and represents me somewhere as coming in my name,are those people he goes to on my behalf to assume he IS me?What if he says "She is greater than me!" would you still have the right to assume he is me and I am him?Would this hold up logically?Is it possible to have more than one boss?More than one head over you?
Who glorified Jesus?

Why in the world can't Jesus be Proskeneo'd alongside his father as appointed heavenly king if even earthly kings were proskeneo'd along with Jehovah in the OT as ones who Jah gave glory to and can't it be in reconizance of not only the ones glorified BY JAH but also to the one who glorified them?And isn't this in fact stated FOR US In the bible that all things are FOR God's glory,as the honoring of his most beloved son absolutely IS?If Jehovah gave Jesus his rightful inheritances and glory as a mighty celestial being exalted to his right hand to defeat armies of evil at Armageddon and usher in a new heavens and a new earth,then NO ONE should have a problem with honoring this rightful powerful king without this rightful powerful king becoming the one who gave him his rights and power just because they BOTH receive honor and proskeneo together..I mean,c'mon!this is something earthly flawed unholy kings appointed by Jah received so how much more the flawless extraordinary faithful and true Lamb?Get over your prejudices and inferences and assumptions.Your traditions and creeds and preachers.Your refusal to exegete passages around the truth that no one who is God's son and agent and representative and servant can be God.

And today I get an "F" in English for my run ons and grammatical issues.And an "F" in creative writing for an amateurish "poem".And an "F" from trinitarians in overall presentation.And an "F" from Athanasius for caring more about what Jesus said than his creed.And an "F" from those weeping and gnashing their teeth ,or assuming I will be soon.Shame on all of you who have exploited JW's for their Armageddonal depictions of destruction in the fear inspiring battle,when you think anyone who isn't a trinitarian will burn alive for an eternity.Hypocrite.

Thursday, March 26, 2009

Trinity on trial(stolen from another blog)

I couldn't possibly do better than this to prove a VERY important point about Christ coming in the flesh and then REALLY dying so I am going to paste another person's blog here who put the trinity on trial..first a trinitarian,then Jesus..then there is a verdict..I hope trinitarians will prayerfully consider this evidence..

This is copied from these two blogs :

[Judge]: State your name
[Defendant]: Athanasius Trinitarian
[Crown Prosecutor]: Mr. Trinitarian, do you understand the charges?
Trinitarian: Yes, I most certainly do.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, do you believe Hades is the realm of the dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, however I do not personally believe this is where Christians go when they die but some of my brothers do believe this to be the case.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, do you believe it would be correct to say the inhabitants of Hades, the realm of the dead, are dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, obviously. It is the abode of the dead.
Crown: So they are not living but dead?
Trinitarian: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Could you describe for me the false antichrist teaching John the Beloved Apostle mentions in his first and second letters?
Trinitarian: Most certainly. Essentially, some false prophets were teaching that the "Christ" was a spiritual entity that appeared as a man incognito, that is, "the Christ entity" only appeared to be a man of flesh, but really was not himself that flesh that suffered and died. The "Christ" appeared in the body of the man named Jesus of Nazareth and at the point of his death, this spiritual entity - "Christ" - escaped from the cross. They believed the divine Christ could not suffer death because he was divine and so he left that humanity behind on the cross and the man Jesus was dead, but the spiritual persona that left him behind did not die. This is why John opens his first letter by indicating that the apostles had physically touched the Word of life, that is, they touched Christ’s flesh. And later John teaches them that anyone who does not confess Christ coming in the flesh is the spirit of the antichrist. John tells us at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 these men were deceivers teaching in the spirit of the antichrist and this is how you can test for these deceiving spirits.
Crown: Very insightful and interesting Mr. Trinitarian. You don't believe anything like that do you?
Trinitarian: Oh, goodness no. We Trinitarians all believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
Crown: Are you sure about that Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Let me ask you one more time Mr. Trinitarian, are you sure that you don't believe anything like what you just described?
Trinitarian: Totally sure.
Crown: So you really do believe the person Jesus truly died and was truly dead?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Can God die and be that dead flesh Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely not. Just as God cannot lie, God cannot die and be dead. God is life by definition. That is why Jesus took a human nature to himself - so he could die.
Crown: So you do believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh then Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: And you also believe this Jesus, the Son of God, was also God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, correct?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, did you not already testify that God could not be dead?
Trinitarian: Absolutely.
Crown: Well Mr. Trinitarian, now you are telling us that this person who died and was dead and buried was God. Aren't you contradicting yourself Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Oh goodness no. God did not die. The man Jesus died and was dead and buried.
Crown: So, the Son of God was two people Mr. Trinitarian? There was one person who was God the Son and another person who was a man named Jesus of Nazareth? And the person Jesus was dead but the person God the Son was not?
Trinitarian: No, no. You don't understand. Jesus Christ was one person who had two natures: one divine and one human. He was fully God and fully man.
Crown: So then Mr. Trinitarian, there is only one person then. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, absolutely.
Crown: Are you sure?
Trinitarian: No doubt about it.
Crown: So who was dead and buried in the tomb, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: I already told you. The man Jesus was dead in the tomb.
Crown: So God the Son was dead in the tomb then? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: No, God the Son was elsewhere. I don't know where he was personally. Some say he preached the gospel to the dead spirits in Hades and others say he was in heaven.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, now we are back to two people again. We have one person Jesus who is the dead man in the tomb and another person who is God the Son who is "elsewhere." Mr. Trinitarian, was Jesus Christ one person or two?
Trinitarian: One.
Crown: Well now Mr. Trinitarian, we seem to have a little problem here don't we? Where was that one person? Was the person Jesus dead in the tomb or not?
Trinitarian: Yes, he was in the tomb!
Crown: So God was that dead flesh in the tomb, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: No, God cannot die, or be dead! God the Son died in his humanity but he himself did not die.
Crown: What exactly do you mean by this phrase, "God died 'in his humanity'," Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: God the Son had two natures. He did not die in his divinity. He died in his humanity, in his human nature.
Crown: I see. So what you are saying is that a person didn't really die but a nature this person happened to possess died and was dead? In other words, the nature he owned died and was dead but he himself wasn't dead?
Trinitarian: No, no. Jesus died and was truly dead. You aren't going to catch me with your clever words. If I said a person didn't die then I would be admitting the person Jesus didn't die. No, Jesus died but he died in his humanity, not in his divinity.
Crown: I see. So a person did truly die and was truly dead?
Trinitarian: Yes. Death is separation of the spirit from the body. In that respect, Jesus died and was dead.
Crown: I see. So God the Son did not die but separated from the man Jesus who did die and was dead? That sounds awfully familiar Mr. Trinitarian. Where have we heard that idea before?
Trinitarian: One person, two natures.
Crown: Uh huuuh.... so is this person Jesus then the same person as "God the Son?"
Trinitarian: Yes.
Crown: So "God the Son" died correct?
Trinitarian: The human nature of God the Son died and was dead.
Crown: Ah! I see now Mr. Trinitarian. God's human nature died on the cross and was dead and buried. But the person God the Son did not himself die and was not that dead flesh but was "elsewhere." Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Correct.
Crown: So no one was really in the tomb then, right Mr. Trinitarian? It was just a body of flesh, a "human nature" laying in the tomb right Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Technically I suppose I would have to say God's body was in the tomb. The person God the Son was not in the tomb – He was elsewhere.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you open this Bible and read for me Matthew 12:40.
Trinitarian: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Crown: Was he mistaken, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus is never mistaken. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It sounds to me like he was preaching to the spirits in Hades there in the heart of the earth.
Crown: Is that where Hades is located, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus is never mistaken, so I would have to say, 'Yes.'
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, could you tell me precisely when the person, who is God the Son, left his human nature to preach in Hades, or describe that moment when he went "elsewhere"?
Trinitarian: Certainly. Death is defined in the Bible as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Spirit or soul, Mr. Trinitarian? Which one?
Trinitarian: Well that depends who you ask; some say they are different, some say they are the same thing. Essentially, the spiritual part of a man separates from his body at death.
Crown: I see. So this is why the person God the Son himself was elsewhere and not dead in the tomb? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So the person who is God the Son was not that dead flesh in the tomb? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: Are you sure?
Trinitarian: Yes, absolutely.
Crown: So essentially you are saying the person was not that flesh but lived in that flesh as if it were a possession of his, say, like living in a house he owns? Or like say, a tabernacle or tent? Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Essentially, yes.
Crown: So then Mr. Trinitarian, nobody was really dead in the tomb correct? Otherwise we would have two persons on our hands, right Mr. Trinitarian? One in the tomb and one "elsewhere?"
Trinitarian: Essentially, yes.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, I have some passages for you to read for us. Would you read them please?
Trinitarian: Certainly, I love to read God's word. It is truth.
So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the one, and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to JESUS and saw that HE was already dead, they did not break HIS legs. But one of the soldiers pierced HIS side with a spear. (John 19:32-34).
Therefore order the tomb to be secured until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal HIM away, and tell the people, "HE has risen from the dead, and the last deception will be worse than the first." (Matthew 27:64).
Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb where no one had ever been laid. So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, as the tomb was close at hand, they laid JESUS there. (John 19:42).
And when he learned from the centurion that HE was dead, he granted the body to Joseph. And he bought a linen shroud, and taking HIM down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid HIM in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where HE was laid. (Mark 15:45-47).
So Mary Magdalene ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid HIM"... Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. They both ran but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying, and the napkin, which had been on HIS head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that HE must rise from the dead. Then the disciples went back to their homes. But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away My Lord, and I do not know where they have laid HIM." (John 20:2-14).
But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. HE is not here; for HE has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where HE lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples that HE has risen from the dead." (Matthew 28:5-7).
While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. And when they had assembled together with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sum of money to the soldiers and said, "Tell the people, 'His disciples came by night and stole HIM away while we were asleep.' " (Matthew 28:11-13 RSV).
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint HIM. ... And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek JESUS OF NAZARETH, WHO was crucified. HE has risen, HE is not here; see the place where they laid HIM." (Mark 16:1-6).
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, it appears the Bible indicates there was a person in the tomb! What do you say now, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: There was no person in the tomb. That is just a manner of speaking. Jesus is God the Son and God the Son is Jesus. God the Son himself was elsewhere and his dead body was in the tomb.
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, the Bible tells us there was a person in the tomb! And you disagree, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: There was no person in the tomb. That is just a manner of speaking. God cannot be dead and God the Son was elsewhere.
Crown: I see. So what you are saying then, and please do correct me if I am wrong here, is that since you define death as the separation of the soul or spirit, the spiritual person, from the body; so that the person Jesus, who is the selfsame one person as God the Son, went out from his body and went either to Hades and preached, or went "elsewhere," and therefore God the Son was not that dead flesh left hanging on the cross or dead in the tomb. Since this person is God the Son and God cannot die or be dead you insist God the Son must have been elsewhere and not dead in the tomb. Is that correct, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Well I wouldn't put it that way.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, I have some more passages for you to read for us. Would you read them please?
Trinitarian: Certainly, I love to read God's word.
And about the ninth hour JESUS cried with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken ME?" And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "This man is calling Elijah." And one of them immediately ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." And JESUS cried again with a loud voice and yielded up HIS spirit. (Matthew 27:46-50).
When JESUS had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and HE bowed HIS head and gave up HIS spirit. (John 19:30).
Then JESUS, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit MY spirit!" And having said this HE breathed HIS last. (Luke 23:46).
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, you say Jesus was the spirit who went up from his body, which he left behind dead on the cross but it appears the Bible indicates there that the spirit in Jesus went up from him and left him behind dead on the cross. It seems you teach exactly the reverse to what the Bible teaches. What do you say to that, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: That is just a manner of speaking and perspective. God the Son was elsewhere. Those passages show us that the spiritual person died and went elsewhere at death since death is defined as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, do you expect us to believe such a story? You say the spiritual person separated and left the dead body on the cross and the Bible says completely the opposite, that the spirit in that person was yielded up to God and he, that person, was left dead on the cross.
Trinitarian: That is just a manner of speaking and perspective. God the Son was elsewhere. Those passages show us that the spiritual person died and went elsewhere at death since death is defined as the separation of the soul from the body.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you read for me John 1:1 in the Bible there?
Trinitarian: Most certainly.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
See, it's right there, Jesus is God.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you read for me John 1:14 in the Bible there?
Trinitarian: Most certainly.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Crown: Do you believe that, Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Most certainly. It is the Word of God.
Crown: To clarify, the Son of God, the Word, and Jesus Christ are all the selfsame person. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So you believe the Word himself was a person then became that flesh that died and was dead in the tomb?
Trinitarian: Most certainly not. The Word was not himself that flesh itself. The Word did not change into flesh and leave his divine nature behind. Rather, the Word assumed flesh as a nature to his other divine nature and so he then had two natures.
Crown: I see. To clarify then, you are saying the Word did not really himself become that flesh that died and was dead in the tomb, but added that flesh as another nature to himself, a possession so to speak, so that he could live and die as a man. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, but I wouldn't put it that way.
Crown: So then to clarify again; the Word was God the Son and God the Son was not that flesh that was dead in the tomb. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So then to clarify again; the Word who was God was a person who was not that flesh that was dead in the tomb although he did live in that flesh, or with that flesh, and have that flesh as his nature while he was alive. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: Would you remind us again about the antichrist teaching John was discussing?
Trinitarian: Yes, certainly. Some false prophets were teaching that "the Christ" was a spiritual entity that appeared as a man incognito, that is, "the Christ entity" only appeared to be a man of flesh, but really was not himself that flesh that suffered and died. He appeared in the body of the man named Jesus and at the point of his death this spiritual entity "Christ" escaped from the cross. John tells us at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 these men were deceivers teaching in the spirit of the antichrist.
Crown: Sound familiar Mr. Trinitarian?
Trinitarian: Jesus was dead.
Crown: And the person God the Son, who was not dead, was elsewhere. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.
Crown: So what you are saying is that a living person was in the realm of the dead then. Mr. Trinitarian, I thought you indicated this person died and that anyone in Hades, the realm of the dead, was dead?
Trinitarian: Well no, not God the Son. God the Son cannot die and be dead. He did experience death in that he was in a dying body and separated from that dying body at the point of death. He was a living soul preaching in Hades the realm of the dead.
Crown: I see. So what we have then is a dead body in the tomb and a living person preaching to dead persons and as such God the Son is not dead but living. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Well if you say he went to Hades when he died, Yes. Otherwise, he was just "elsewhere," perhaps heaven.
Crown: I see. So Jesus who was God and is the Word of God was not himself that flesh that died then. Rather this person owned his flesh and his flesh died on him on the cross. Is that correct?
Trinitarian: Yes, the person was God the Son and God cannot die. His flesh was simply his human nature from which he separated at death.
Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, that will be all.
[Judge]: You may step down, Mr. Trinitarian. Thank you for your testimony.

Crown: Your Honor, I would like to call my next witness, 'the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, Savior of the World and Lord of all Creation.'
[The Courtroom]: A hush and many whisperings.
[Bailiff]: Place your hand on the Word of God and swear to tell the truth.
[Jesus]: I am the Word of God made flesh and I am the Truth and I swear by no one. My yes will be Yes and my no will be No.
[Bailiff]: Your honor?
[Judge]: I somehow think we can make an exception here. He did start the faith that forbade swearing by anything.
State your name.
Jesus: I am Lord Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Crown: Jesus, was John, the brother of James, your Apostle?
Jesus: Yes, he was one of my Twelve.
Crown: Jesus, was John your Apostle, filled with your Spirit?
Jesus: Yes, I shed forth the Spirit upon him when the Day of Pentecost had fully come.
Crown: Jesus, was John your Apostle, truthful in his writings concerning you?
Jesus: Yes, I lived in him in the Spirit and guided him in all his ways and I am Truth.
Crown: Jesus, would you read for me here what John said about you here in his opening remarks of his first letter and tell me if this was truthful please?
Jesus: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of life. The life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us.
Crown: Jesus, did John say that he seen you with his eyes and touched and held you, seeing that you are the Word of life made flesh?
Jesus: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Jesus, you were that human flesh he touched?
Jesus: Yes, obviously.
Crown: Jesus, were you yourself dead?
Jesus: Yes, you need not ask me that question. My testimony has been with you for over 2000 years.
Crown: Jesus, would you show us your testimony?
Jesus: Certainly. It is right here in my Revelation to John in chapter one, verse 18, "I was dead."
Crown: Jesus, were you that dead person hanging on the cross?
Jesus: Again, my testimony is with you through my faithful servants.
Crown: Jesus, would you show us your testimony to us?
Jesus: Certainly, my faithful servant Paul, who said, "I no longer live but Christ lives in me," wrote in his selfsame letter to the wayward Galatians, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.” For it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree." John's Gospel also shows you I was hanging dead on the cross and put dead into the tomb and it was me who was raised bodily from the dead. If I was not dead and was not raised from death, your faith is in vain.
Crown: Jesus, so you were hanging dead on the tree and became a curse?
Jesus: Yes, I am the Christ who died and was dead and buried and rose again from death.
Crown: Jesus, is it correct to say, that death lorded over you, had dominion over you?
Jesus: Yes, my faithful servant Paul, wrote such inspired words in his well-known letter to the Romans.
Crown: Jesus, did you give your soul over to death?
Jesus: Yes, the Son of man did not come to be served but to serve and give his soul as a ransom for many.
Crown: Jesus, where were you when you died?
Jesus: Have you not read the Scriptures? My people were not to go near and touch a dead soul. How do you suppose they could do this unless they touched a dead body?
Crown: You are too wise for me Lord. Jesus, tell us, were you a dead soul?
Jesus: I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life (his soul) for the sheep. For this reason the Father loved me, because I laid down my life (my soul), that I may take it up again
Crown: So to sum of Lord, you are the Word that was made flesh; you were that flesh that John handled and touched, you yourself were the flesh that died and was dead in the tomb. You were a dead soul. You, the person, you were dead. Did they crucify YOU Lord or a human nature? Were YOU dead or was a nature simply dead?
Jesus: Yes, I was not alive but dead. My Father raised me back to life after three days. My testimony is with you.
Crown: Jesus, just one more question. Who are you exactly?
Jesus: Who do you say that I am?
Crown: I will defer to Peter on that one my Lord. No more questions. Thank you for your testimony O Lord of All.
[Judge]: You may step down, Lord. Thank you for your testimony.
Crown: Your Honor, in light of the testimony of the Christ Himself, I wish to now make my final statement.
Mr. Trinitarian, the defendant, has testified that only the dead are in Hades and that the Antichrist deception was a spiritual entity leaving the body at the point of death; and that Jesus Christ was not himself that flesh and did not die and was therefore not that dead flesh and was not dead in the tomb; but was still a living spiritual entity alive in Hades, and in fact, has testified that Christ was himself, being a spiritual entity, was not himself that human flesh, but the spiritual entity that appeared incognito in a human body of flesh and left that body of flesh at the point of death, as that spiritual entity; and did not die and was not dead, but living elsewhere.
In light of his testimony, and the witness of our Lord himself, who is the Truth, has testified that he himself did indeed die, that he was that touchable flesh and did indeed become a curse and was indeed himself a dead person in the tomb, wherein he himself stated, and I quote, "I was dead;"
And whereas the defendant has testified that Jesus the Christ was not himself really and truly that flesh and did not really and truly suffer and die, and was not really and truly dead, but unassumed his body of flesh at the point of death, and as such escaping death, perpetuating the original lie of the Serpent of Eden, "You won't 'really' die;"
I therefore call for a judgment and verdict for the charge of promulgating the deception of the spirit of the antichrist, to wit, that the selfsame Jesus the Christ, testifies that he did himself come in flesh; while the defendant himself confesses, despite his opening words, that he truly believes and teaches in concept, the deception mentioned by John which he himself described, and as the defendant has fraudulently posed as a disciple of Christ, and who has in fact stolen the Lord away from the tomb in the minds of all God's children, I hereby move for a judgment on the matter on the charges of fraud, perjury and the sin of inciting the spirit of the Antichrist among the children of God, the illusion and deception of the Antichrist as described by John at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7, creating an image of our Brother and Lord, Jesus Christ, in the likeness and image of the Man of Lawlessness.
Your honor, the defendant admits he believes the Lord was not personally that body of flesh but merely owned it and lived in and with it and henceforth escaped death and went up from his body and left it behind and was not himself truly dead but living "elsewhere" and then returned to later retrieve it, which as you will carefully note is itself the antichrist teaching described by the defendant himself.
I call for a verdict of "Guilty."
[Judge]: Mr. Trinitarian, please stand.
In light of the testimony of Jesus Christ himself who truthfully tells that he himself was that dead flesh that was crucified dead, left dead hanging on the cross and buried in the tomb, I have no other choice but to pronounce you Guilty as charged.
I will reserve sentencing for the only Righteous Judge at which time you may appeal to a Higher court.
May God have mercy upon you.

Wednesday, March 18, 2009

God,mankind's fall, and the kingdom

For the sincere seekers of "something more",for those recognizant of the fact that "it isn't up to mortal man even to direct his step"(Jer 10:23,17:9,10)) and that there is no peace where there is no God.(Is 48:17,18)For those who hate the evil in this world and cling or want to cling to something brighter cleaner richer and better.(ps 34:8)Jehovah is there for you.He is your father and he draws close to those drawing close to him.(James 4:8)He is the EPITOME of love and he desires your love.(1john 4:8,16)He sacrificed his own son so that we may live,a greater sacrifice cannot be fathomed(john 3:16).He is apparent in all the maginficent(to say the least) creation around you,from the intricacies of the simplest butterfly to the unbelievable complexities in a single cell to the the undeniable marvels of the human body.(rom 1:20,Ps 139:14)He doesn't cause us to be tempted or to suffer.(pr 27:11,james 1:13-15)He ALLOWS it for a PURPOSE and only temporarily.It hurts him very much.(gen 6:6)But his sovereignty and right to rule mankind as our benevolent loving creator has been challenged by someone who epitomizes evil.(John 8:44)Satan the devil,the father of the lie,who was one of heaven's most glorious angels before he became haughty and desired the worship Jehovah received for himself.(Ezekiel 28:11-19)Not only did he abandon and rebel against his father and creator but so did a third of all the angels in heaven.Man inherited sin and death from Adam,and the consequences are trying but we are never tempted beyond what we can bear.(1 cor 10:12-14) And are promised a future when there will be no more pain and death and chaos,if we only look ahead.And if Jesus Christ,the faithful and true most beloved and exceptional son of God,can endure the hideous suffering he did(which is easier to understand once you realize he REALLY is a son who can be tempted and not God himself)then we should be able to endure anything horrendous that may occur with our eyes on spiritual matters and a view to a future kingdom and peace.(matt 4:8-10,heb 5:7)God allows this chaos and madness because of that challenge of his sovereignty (Job 1:7-12,Proverbs 27:11)and aren't we now equipped with solid evidence that a world lying in the power of evil instead of good is not a world of peace and harmony and perfection.?(WAR.CRIME.SICKNESS.DEPRESSION.DEATH. ETC.)Like it WAS before Adam sinned and Satan became allowed (for a short time..remember 1000 yrs is like a day to Jehovah)to become "ruler of THIS world".(2 cor 4:4,rev 12:12).When all badness and evil has been destroyed,will anyone ever be able to question God's right to rule again,and the benefit for us and the angels of that rule?(the suffering now should leave an indelible mark of remembrance even into the distant future of the abysmal debaucheed conditions in a world without God's sovereignty being "all in all" 1 cor 15:28)Should we listen to ourselves instead of the designer OF ourselves?(Is 64:8)Now we have seen the effects of this world without Jehovah's intervention.He WILL intervene but till then we have death,sorrow,sickness,war,crime you name it.Have you learned anything yet?(ec 8:9,pr 3:5-6)Like that perhaps it doesn't belong to man to bring peace and happiness?Like perhaps we have a heavenly father who has every right to tell us how to live,while still maintaining our free will and individual personalities..?So does God want and require us to be obedient and to use our free will responsibly because he is selfish and wants to "lord it over" us?Umm,no.He knows we will never have peace or be benefitted in any good way if we don't heed him in all we do.That simple.Imagine if you had a rebellious child who you loved so much it hurt,but that child does drugs,goes to war,gets AIDS from being promiscuous,refuses to even acknowledge you at all(the scary possibilities are endless for the rebellious).How would you feel?And if you were a fantastic person who had the kind of advice and love that could have saved your child,wouldn't you be distressed if the child refused to believe it?And if you promised that child if they would only listen and obey you then there peace and life would NEVER end.That simply RECOGNIZING,loving and obeying you was all that is required to benefit extraordinarily superabundantly,for an eternity!(eph 3:20,micah 6:8)Wouldn't the child be a fool not to listen love and obey?Even powerful deception and temptation shouldn't make the child turn from such magnanimous promises.And if the child does decide to wise up and repent,what an extraordinary father to accept that child with open arms right back!(Luke 15,Is 1:18,19)As if nothing ever happened at all.Slate clean.Wouldn't such a remarkable empathetic and kind father move you to turn to him in your time of need,and thank him for his blessings and promise thereof?Do you ever marvel at his marvels of creation around you,even if you don't yet recognize that they ARE creations(IF you are an atheist)?The heavens the earth(minus the bad..he didn't cause that..He created the angels and people who abused their free will and BECAME evil) the animals the oceans,the mountains,the children.ETC..He made it all perfect,and will again.Without fail.I urge you if you don't believe this to not only prayerfully consider the bible,but to affirm for yourself its prophetic fulfillments and scientific accuracies etc with your own research..research of HIS side..because it is undeniable & tenable ..no more excuses for ignorance.He has spoken to us by means of prophets in the past,his son also,then his holy scripture now.And THAT is alive and exerts power,sharper than a two edged sword,able to pierce even to the dividing of soul and spirit,to discern thoughts and intentions(heb 4:12).YOU are loved.Will you love in return?

In summary,Jah allows suffering because it teaches us that a world not under his benevolent magnanimous rulership,by his appointed king,is tragic chaotic and death dealing.We have promise and hope laid out like a giant jewel in the bible for a future of absolute peace and eternal life.Jehovah is misrepresented as a mysterious triune(which is 3,not one..He however is ONE) sadist God by people who misinterpret symbolic texts(about "hellfire").But the truth(that those who refuse to live in line with his requirements for a peaceful righteous world must die,NOT burn alive forever) is in there if you sincerely dig and he will reveal it to you if you seek him diligently.We can have either eternal life or eternal death.Under fabulous conditions and remarkable ways and truths we have yet to know but that will soon be revealed.Give your loving generous merciful and holy heavenly father your love!His kingdom under his messiah's appointed rule will be something that as flawed unholy humans now we couldn't possibly fully comprehend but he provides many truths about what the faithful and true will inherit :)!Can anything be greater than forming a close relationship with your creator and learning truthful nuggets of gold about his sensational upcoming kingdom ?!It doesn't matter who you are or what you've done,if you are repentant and you are willing to love him like he loves you,in truth and in earnestness,you will be forgiven anything.!

I recommend reading the book of Job if you don't understand suffering,keeping in mind who is tempting and torturing,then who exactly is giving blessings afterward upon our endurance.

I also recommend reading Matthew for a preview of the kind of heavenly king we have who will be restoring us to health and perfection in the coming kingdom.One who indiscriminately loves,heals,teaches and gives life to all with faith.ALL those who worship in love and truth.He wants you to know him and to know him is to know his father.His God is someone we need and should know and love and worship and obey and thank etc ...Don't ignore him please..he pleads to you from inspired words of life and holiness..to embrace "the real" life and the kingdom to come.

If you are someone who thinks the bible is derived from ancient mythology,I recommend reading "the Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop(exhaustively researched) to help you understand how it all connects(the book isn't all about the bible/mythology connection,but it certainly explains it).Basically,mythology adopted and twisted prophecies Jehovah gave to his ancient peoples ,NOT the other way around.

Jehovah is too holy to find our fall from perfection and glory as acceptable.So he provided a propitiatory sacrifice,a loving and complete provision so that we sinners could live,regain vitality,enjoy blessings forever.

Jehovah is perfectly outstandigngly holy and that is why we had to have the sacrifice of his MOST beloved son to redeem our pathetic selves.Don't believe those who tell you that he gave his own life.God can't die.He had to watch his own unique child suffer untellable atrocities and then watch him be put to death for us.When Jesus told his disciples that there is no greater love than to give your life for another,he was letting them know how much he loved them and what they may,as martyrs ,have to do.But,clearly,it is even harder to watch your child die than to die yourself.Ask any mother or father which they'd prefer.So now Jesus,the son,is exalted because it PLEASES his father.Imagine watching your child suffer THAT...of course he has been rewarded and he deserves praise and glory and his inherited kingship!On Jehovah's scales of justice,a perfect son bought back what a perfect son had lost.We can have forgiveness from that ransom and we should be grateful from the bottom of our hearts and souls.Get to know Jesus and Jehovah through bible study.You can't say you wholeheartedly love anyone you don't come to know and continue to learn everything about.Of course you can love and appreciate them but you can't KNOW them like they want you to.We are commanded to read the word every day and night.It is rewarding,not burdensome.If you haven't already,experience it!Don't believe the anti-bible propaganda..examine the prophecies etc yourself!There is not a single other book or "god" in existence who can make the claims the ONE TRUE GOD and his word can!Down to the letter,it is accurate and trustworthy and will continue to prove to be.Which means we have a lot to look forward to if we are close to Jehovah :)

Sunday, March 15, 2009

Oh Hell!!(texts explained by someone smarter than me)

Hey everyone.I found this great online article "Everlasting torment Examined" that I wanted to share portions of.Please clickety click on the link for the entire sensible awesome thing :)Thanks to the guy who recommended this !The person who wrote this is not affiliated with JW's as far as I know.

***Matthew 10:28
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

The passage, as it relates to final punishment is unambiguous in stating that the ‘soul,’ whatever it may be, is not indestructible or immortal. It can and will be destroyed in Gehenna (translated, “hell”). That is a fairly clear statement that the fate of the unrighteous is not eternal torment, but destruction. At face value the term commonly denotes concepts like, ‘abolish, obliterate, annihilate, raze, demolish, etc.’ If Jesus wanted to teach everlasting torment, he would have likely used different wording such as ‘fear Him who could torment body and soul in hell,’ but he does not say that. He uses the term ‘destroy’ and the burden of proof is on the side of the Orthodox to show that the term ‘destroy’ means ‘torment.’ Of course this cannot be done, because the Greek (apolesai) simply cannot be forced to mean that.

God will completely and utterly kill the soul. That is the clearest and most coherent meaning of the admonition – an endless torment does not fit the context or the language, but makes nonsense of both.

***Daniel 12:2
“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”

That the unrighteous are raised to undergo a shameful death is even more substantiated by the use of the word ‘contempt’ in the Hebrew. Literally meaning ‘abhorrence,’ it is the same word used in Isaiah 66:24 where the righteous look upon the corpses of the rebellious with abhorrence as fire and worms consume their dead bodies. These are the only two times this word is used in the OT and some significance should be granted to that fact when establishing a connotation. In Isaiah’s usage, the corpses of the wicked are viewed with lasting disgust, and in Daniel, given that they rise in order to die, the lasting contempt must refer to a similar thing.

Moreover, a note should be made that the ‘contempt’ is coming from either the righteous or God (or both), and is not descriptive of any state of the wicked. The ‘everlasting contempt’ is the subjective experience of the righteous prompted by the shamefulness of their counterparts.

It is the memory of the dead that is shamed, disgraced and held in contempt – “Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in Sheol” (Psalm 31:17, see Ezekiel 32:30, Isaiah 14:9-20, and Proverbs 10:7 for other examples of this common OT theme).
Because they will not rise to an enduring life, there is no place for a clarifying of their state since they are dead, and such a condition needs no explanation. A state of death was clearly understood and it was enough to mention that their execution and failure to attain immortality brings their memory only a lasting disdain.

That Hebrew word is olam(for everlasting).The word does not demand an actual eternity, nor does the context demand the contempt must last literally as long as the life; however, should the words be taken to mean that the contempt lasts as long as the life, it can be taken as a parallel to illustrate the opposing fates of the Godly and ungodly. The one goes on to live forever; the other is dead forever. That is, their death state is everlasting because they are held in permanent contempt and do not deserve to “shine brightly like the stars forever” (v.3); nor are they “to attain the resurrection from the dead” (Philippians 3:11) because they are not “worthy” of it (see Luke 20:35,36).

Similar language in the OT may help in determining the most accurate meaning of the phrase in question: everlasting contempt. In Psalm 78:66 retells how God placed on his enemies an “everlasting reproach.” Contextually, the phrase is found in this historical narrative retelling the history of Israel’s mistakes, judgments and restoration (see vv. 34-53 for example). The scorn of “everlasting reproach” took place, then, in time and depicts the denunciation of Zion’s enemies (v.68) – which is parallel to an indefinite rejection similar to the one experienced by the tribes of Joseph and Ephraim (v.67). Clearly, “everlasting reproach” bears the meaning of an indistinct and lasting reprimand, at most for as long as these enemies exist. That comparable language to “everlasting contempt” often bears this temporal sense can be seen in Jeremiah 23:40 where God denounces the people for following after false prophets and will have them endure “everlasting reproach” and “everlasting humiliation” – their city and their memory will be disgraced and their shame not forgotten. Again this is not an eternal and infinite reproach upon Israel, but an indefinite and lasting one that will endure a long time until her restoration. As Joel predicts: “The LORD will be zealous for His land and will have pity on His people. The LORD will answer and say…, ‘Behold…I will never again make you a reproach among the nations’” (2:18,19). Given these uses, the phrase everlasting contempt ought to be read as an expression of a permanent disdain lasting indefinitely, not as teaching a literal eternity of disgust.

Whatever the exact meaning of the phrase is, however, the above discussion has done justice to the language and context. Should both states be insisted on as being literally the same duration, the parallel, as has been established, is between “life” and “death” and as both are forever, that is satisfactory.
They (who believe in literal hellfire)have to conclude that the righteous, for all eternity, will experience feelings of disgust, abhorrence and contempt. How, though, can these be any part of the new heavens and new earth where there is no more sorrow, pain, or tears – where the old order of things was said to have passed away? How does the Traditionalist imagine that the righteous will watch a person be tormented for long periods of time without becoming horrified and miserable themselves? It is only the most sadistically ill people who do not experience agony when they view the protracted agony of others.

No interpretation that creates “righteous sadists” can be the true one.

***Matthew 25:41, 46
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels’…These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Five things, (1) much can be said concerning the Greek expression kolasis aionios (punishment eternal), including (a) how antiquity sometimes used it to describe a finite penalty between people, (b) how the word aionios can bear various meanings along with being indefinite, (c) how the gospel of Matthew was probably written in Hebrew with the word for “punishment” (kolasis) being a translation, (d) how different words instead of punishment, like “fire” or “judgment,” appear in different manuscripts, or (e) how the word kolasis might bear the sense of cutting off, abscission, chastise or restrain.

The word kolasis does not require the connotation of conscious suffering. New Testament and Septuagint (Greek OT) usage will show what the lexicons detail: that the word generically means punishment, penalty, or correction.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life….For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life…” (John 3:16, Romans 6:23). In addition, it is no surprise to frequently find kolasis in the Septuagint connected with death – natural enough as putting to death is a punishment (perhaps the most severe that can be inflicted). Moreover, the conclusion that the general word punishment specifically means death is founded by taking the language at its primary meaning – a person must die and come to an end if they do not live forever. Thus, it appears plain enough; Jesus is warning that the unrighteous will suffer a capital punishment of death.

It is called an eternal punishment because, destroyed, the punished will cease to exist forever, never to live again. It is understood, then, not as an everlasting punishing, but as a one time punishment that will have everlasting consequences. Compare Hebrews 6:2 where the phrase ‘eternal judgment’ is found. God is not going to be judging for all eternity; rather he will make one judgment that will have permanent implications. Similarly, He will not be punishing for all eternity, but will punish once with death, and it will be final, unending, irreversible and eternal.

The phrase ‘eternal fire’ might have been difficult to interpret were it not for Jude 7 which tells us exactly what it means and how it was used by the biblical authors.

“…even as Sodom and Gomorrah…having…given themselves up to unclean desires and gone after strange flesh, have been made an example, undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” Jude states that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of those who underwent the punishment of eternal fire. That punishment was a complete reduction to dust and rubble; total annihilation and destruction and those cities do not exist anymore. The ‘eternal fire’ did not torment the cities, it eradicated them. They endured the punishment of a fire which consumes utterly with permanent results. Therefore, Jesus means to say, when he uses the phrase, ‘eternal fire,’ not a flame which will burn forever in order to torture the unsaved, rather, he means the unrighteous will be consumed and destroyed entirely by a fire that leaves nothing left for all eternity. As Hebrews phrases it, all that remains is a “…terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries” for “God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 10:27, 12:29).

Should any doubt remain as to what Jude is trying to communicate and what the phrase ‘eternal fire’ designates, one more passage should be examined.
“…He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter” (2 Peter 2:6). This is a parallel passage to Jude 7 with the extra detail as to what ‘eternal fire’ does and what is meant by ‘destruction’ – a reducing to ashes. Now this punishment is set forth as an example to the ungodly, why? Why would a ‘reduction to ashes’ be given to the ungodly as an example if that is not what their fate was going to be? What sense would that make to give them an example of a fire that consumes when their real punishment would be a fire that torments? It would make no sense at all. God gives the ungodly this example precisely because that is what will happen to the one that persists in wickedness.

***Mark 9:43-48
“…it is better for you to enter life crippled, than…to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire…where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’”

The Greek word here translated ‘hell’ is Gehenna. This is a reference to the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom which lay to the south of Jerusalem where it was commonly used as a garbage receptacle. Worms consumed decaying material, and fires burned to dispose of trash, carcasses, and all types of waste.

The language of ‘worm’ and ‘fire’ comes directly from Isaiah 66:24, “Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.” The image is one of dead bodies rotting, being consumed by worms and fire. Note those agents are not tormenting living people, they are destroying corpses.

Jesus, once again, offers life as the reward, compelling us to interpret ‘going into Gehenna’ as a death sentence. It is not between alternatives of bliss or torment, it is, as biblically usual, 'life' and 'death.' It is better to lose an eye, or a hand, and still be alive (9:43), then to go into ‘gehenna’ where the entire body will be lost.

Gehenna was not a prison of torture it was a trash dump of putrefaction. A reference to Gehenna, then, would evoke images, not of torment, but of destruction and death.
In particular, fire in both testaments, I repeat, is a consistent and clear tool for consumption and especially so in this context of refuse and debris. Moreover, worms do not torture or inflict pain – that is senseless. To interpret it that way leads to the absurdities of there being immortal worms in hell that torture the living, in addition to making the Bible choose a worm as a means to communicate pain and agony. Such an idea is simply foolish.

The burden of proof, therefore, falls on the Orthodox again to show that ‘worm’ and ‘fire’ in this context are meant to connote ‘torment’ and not ‘consumption,’ and once again the history of Gehenna, the reference in Isaiah to ‘corpses,’ and the contrasting of life with death make this an impossibility.

Doesn’t ‘unquenchable fire’ mean an eternally burning fire? No, this has to be read back into the language once everlasting torment has been assumed. The phrase means to communicate the strength of a blaze, not its duration. In other words, ‘unquenchable’ has nothing to do with how long the fire burns, but is used to qualify its sheer intensity. It is the hottest conceivable fire that will not and cannot be quenched while it does it job of burning to ashes.
This can be seen vividly in Matthew 3:12, “…He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Fire, consumes, burns up, reduces to ashes, it is a simple and clear concept. It does not ‘torment’ the chaff; it ‘burns up’ the chaff. And if it weren’t clear enough, Jesus in Matthew 13:40, speaking of final judgment in a parable says, ‘just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.’

Quite simply, to say ‘their worm will not die’ or ‘the fire will not be quenched’ does not necessitate a fire will always be burning and worms will always be living. Once again, this is language for the effectiveness, not the time extension of the worm and fire. It emphasizes the finality of the sentence, that there is no second chance, that the worms are not going to die and the fire is not going to be extinguished before it does its job reducing the carcasses to nothing. This is verbiage to guarantee death and total consumption – succumbing to these agents is inevitable precisely because they are not going to expire or be quenched.
That is to say, there is not one ray of hope the worms will crawl away or the fire will blow out and preserve something of the body. Instead, the worms are going to feed and the fire is going to consume until there is nothing left of the corpse, and there is nothing that will impede these forces. Anything subjected to such effective destroyers cannot escape complete destruction. Thus, the wicked will not enjoy an honorable burial; they will lose their entire body in a grisly cremation, tossed as garbage into Gehenna. And that is Jesus’ point – that it is better to lose an eye or a hand and live, then to die and have your entire body devoured by worms and fire.

“Say to the southern forest: ‘…I am about to set fire to you, and it will consume all your trees…the blazing flame will not be quenched, and every face from south to north will be scorched by it.’” (Ezekiel 20:47-48; see also Matthew 3:12, Jeremiah 7:20, 17:27 and Isaiah 1:31). Notice that the “blazing flame” and unquenchable fire are for consuming and scorching, and that it would be foolish to conclude the southern forest will be eternally ablaze after everything has been burnt up.
There is no reason to attach a figurative sense to the word die and ignore its primary meaning in clear prose.there is no lexical or linguistic evidence to suggest that die can even support a metaphorical meaning of ‘endless torment.’ Such a loose and arbitrary imposition on the word is a gross error without equivalent.

***2 Thessalonians 1:9
“These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power…”

The comma and the word away, both following the word ‘destruction’ are not a part of the original Greek. The text reads roughly as follows: who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the face of the lord and from the glory of his strength.
Paul is saying to the unrighteous that they will not escape, they will not be hidden, and they will not be away from the destructive presence of God.

Examine:II Thessalonians 1:6-10
Option 1: Paul wanted to communicate a fiery banishment to a state of ruin shut out from Christ’s person and shut out from Christ’s glorious strength. Option 2: Paul wanted to communicate a fiery punishment of destruction that comes from Christ’s person and from his glorious strength. The first option simply fails to account for how Paul could conceive that being deprived of Jesus’ strength would be a punishment.
Paul means that Christ in blazing fire, with mighty angels, dealing out retribution, will destroy sinners using his strength.

How is it possible to suffer an eternal destruction in limited time during the space of a single event? The only answer for this is that they are put to death and permanently destroyed, all of which happens on the day Christ returns – penalty paid in full. The Traditionalist’s explanation, however, demands that the sinner never actually fully pays the penalty, but begins to pay it on the day Christ returns and continues to pay forever afterward. The context, however, shows that they will pay all of it on the ‘day of the Lord.’

A similar passage in I Thessalonians buttresses the above conclusions. “…the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, ‘peace and safety’ then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape” (5:2,3). The same word in II Thess. 1:9 for destruction, olethros, is used here. Along with the ‘day of the Lord’ it is obvious that we have the same destruction spoken of in both places. This verse tells us that the destruction will overtake them suddenly and by surprise, like a thief in the night, and like a woman seized by labor pains. Notice, it is the destruction that surprises them, showing once again that Paul understood the destruction to be a single event, not an endless state.

A state of ruin away from the presence of Christ is neither violent, surprising, sudden nor fatal. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to the deluge and destruction of Sodom, and therefore cannot be what Paul had in mind.(In Luke 17:26-30). Once again, it is destruction from the person of Christ that fits the criteria.

. But it is still left to assume, for argument, the sense of separation and determine if an annihilationist conclusion is impossible.
Certainly, if one suffers eternal ruin and is shut out from the presence of Christ, it cannot prove they have any conscious presence elsewhere, anymore than they would have a presence or consciousness somewhere after being killed. Consider the following biblical texts that highlight this: Genesis 6:7, 7:4, I Samuel 20:15, Amos 9:8, Zephaniah 1:2,3 and especially Exodus 32:12 and Jeremiah 28:16. In no case of this separation from the land’s or earth’s face are we to assume that they will have a presence elsewhere for the simple fact that they are dead.

Why then should we assume that a person suffering eternal ruin, away from the presence of the Lord, is alive and present somewhere else? An eternal ruin can just as easily refer to them being completely dead and destroyed; much like a demolished city.

Traditionalists are quick to exploit. They reason as follows: destroy does not have to mean the termination of existence, but can mean the loss of use and function.The point then is that, whether organic or inorganic, slowly or quickly, anything said to be lost, ruined or wasted, is to describe the cause for its fate of extinction. As ‘destroy’ primarily communicates something akin to demolish, damage beyond repair, reduce to useless remains, annihilate, kill, to put an end to, extinguish, etc., every usage of that word must bear some semblance to and dependence on this meaning. That is why to ‘ruin’ something always has as its goal, an object’s extinction. You do not ‘ruin’ something in order to perpetuate its existence and that is why anything spoken of as ‘ruined,’ connected to its root meaning of ‘destroyed,’ is understood to be an ‘extinction.’ So in the case where a ruinous cause does not describe the final effect, we recognize its extinction as implied and inherent. Therefore, the Traditionalists are completely outside their semantic rights to assume that an object made useless and ruined is to persist forever.

The Traditionalist, then, who will not properly define the Greek word apollumi as a destruction, ruining or loss ‘to extinction’ but as something connoting a ruining to a ‘useless and lower quality of existence,’ has to explain the following: Matthew 2:13; 5:29, Mark 3:6; 9:41; 11:18; 12:9, Luke 17:27, 29, 21:18, John 10:10, I Corinthians 1:19; 15:18, Hebrews 1:10-11, James 1:10-11, and Revelation 18:14.

Traditionalism is left, then, with most usages of the word clearly meaning ‘destruction to extinction,’ and a few usages where it does not, and they haven’t the slightest idea how to reconcile them. This is so because they have ignored basic laws of linguistics, as noted in the above points. This anarchy allows them to define a word in whatever way they need to in order to make it conform to a dogma. So being destroyed just means ‘ruined without destruction;’ perish means to be in a state of perishing, and to die means existing in a state separate from God.

What then is the significance of the adjective aionios when it is describing destruction? In my personal estimation, however ignorant it may be, the word aionios is best translated here as permanent and not eternal.Though near equivalents I think permanent better captures the sense of the word in various contexts. For example, in II Corinthians 4:18 – 5:4, the things which are seen are temporary but things that are not seen are permanent .That being said, II Thessalonians 1:9 appears to be a context more suitable to permanent than eternal because it would make little sense to speak of an infinite process of destroying. The sense then would be that sinners will suffer a permanent destruction from Christ.

But the point does not need to be pressed and the standard translation of ‘eternal destruction’ is adequate and can remain. It still carries the same meaning that they will be punished by Christ’s strength with a destruction that will be everlasting and irreversible. That is to say that an eternal destruction describes the permanent consequences of the destruction, not the duration of the destroying process. This sense is common when the word ‘eternal’ is paired with a ‘noun of action’ – for example, an eternal salvation, eternal redemption and eternal judgment (Hebrews 5:9, 6:2, 9:12); or an eternal sin (Mark 3:29), or an eternal fire (Jude 7). Neither the salvation, redemption, judgment, sin or fire are going to be eternally enduring actions, rather their results are what is meant as final and everlasting.

****Revelation 14:11
“…the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image….”

****Revelation 20:10
“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

The genre is characterized by symbolism, cryptograms, visions, poetry, hyperbole, figures of speech, and metaphors.

Caution should then be taken to interpret the passages in light of the clearer testimony of the Bible, and not the other way around. That is, if the rest of the Bible in precise language tells us the fate of the unrighteous is death and destruction, we ought to bring apocalyptic texts into harmony with the unambiguous majority.

***Revelation 14:10,11
“…he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength…and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image….”

They cannot be taken literally unless we are prepared to have people drinking cups of wrath, a lamb watching torment, unending smoke from bodies that are being consumed but never totally, a man sitting on a cloud, sickles reaping grapes, a two-hundred mile river of blood from these grapes, angels pouring wrath from golden bowls, mountains vanishing and islands running away. No, these pictures communicate that drastic punishment will come from God upon those who support the evils of the world system and against those who persecuted Christians.

As symbols what then are they representing? The key language under examination has its precedence in the Old Testament and helps clarify what is meant. In particular, the ‘fire and brimstone’ comes from Genesis 19:24 as the instruments by which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed as Jude and Peter reference, as well as Ezekiel (see 38:18-23). Though the Apocalypse says that these will be an instrument of ‘torment’ that is only to add a detail to what they will do and not to disclose all that they do (see Revelation 18:8-10). “Fire and Brimstone,” as types, bring destruction and desolation, and would be so understood as the result of God ‘tormenting’ or punishing with it. This, strangely enough, can be shown from the following phrase, ‘the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever,’ which originates in Genesis 19:28 and is borrowed from Isaiah 34:9,10.

Without grasp of these roots and with a medieval preconception, we tend to read the verse to say, ‘the smoke from their constantly burning bodies keeps on ascending and will continue to rise without end because they will always be burning.’ Leaving aside the numerous problems when read that strict, that understanding is simply not consistent with biblical language. The verse is best understood to teach that the temporary occurrence of torment with ‘fire and brimstone’ produced a destruction that will last forever. That is the language of ‘forever ascending smoke’ – a symbolic reminder of a permanent and complete desolation.

As noted, this imagery is taken from Isaiah 34:9-11 where Edom is promised the vengeance of God, its land ‘becomes burning pitch,’ not ‘quenched night or day’ and its ‘smoke will go up forever.’ Now clearly, the fire has long gone out, and the smoke is not ascending anymore. The language then is a metaphorical way of impressing on the mind the absolute and irrecoverable ‘desolation’ of a land that ‘none will pass through forever and ever,’ condemned to ‘emptiness,’ occupied only by wild animals.

‘they have no rest day or night’
That is to say while they are alive and being judged (Chapter 16) they will find no intermission to their torments, but as these plagues end in death and have no reference to the afterlife we are compelled to understand the duration of torment to be finite, while the result of it (the smoke) is dramatically expressed in infinite terms to communicate its finality and permanence.

Moreover, the phrase seems to be contrasted with the saints who persevere and get to ‘rest from their labors’ (v.13). This lets them know that though they lack rest now and though life is easy for their persecutors, the tables will soon turn. In sum, the message to the Christians appears to be this: Those that oppose you will soon be punished with no rest from their torments and whose end is a cursed, ‘second death,’ but should your rest come in a blessed death, your reward will soon follow in eternal life (v.13, cf. 20:4-6; 21:4-7).

Putting all the pictures of the apocalypse together, as has been attempted, along with all the data from outside of the book, the probability that the meaning of the angelic message is an actual endless tormenting and not death and destruction is effectively zero.

In conclusion then, to understand Revelation 14:11 as depicting hell’s eternal torments, one has to ignore the context and setting of the judgment, ignore the details of the judgments in Chapter 16, and ignore the fact the judgments end in death. Further, one must interpret allegory literally, ignore the genre of the passage, maintain physical absurdities, and disregard similar language in the OT and matching language in the same book, which clearly demonstrates that the picture is one of destruction.

***Revelation 20:10
“…the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

This passage can no more prove the dogma of hell than one could prove Jesus will actually ride the sky on a white horse with fire for eyes, wearing a robe drenched in blood with a sword coming out of his mouth.

Since the ‘beast and false prophet’ are clearly symbols, their punishment must also be symbolical. How can the characters be emblematic and their fate not be?

‘Ages of ages’ is thus an indefinite amount of time finding its duration in connection to the object referred to.

We might also recall the smoke rising ‘forever and ever’ in Isaiah 34 and Revelation 19:3 as denoting an indefinite but limited amount of time. Also, 2 Kings 5:27, Psalm 83:17, Matthew 21:19, and Philemon 15 are among numerous examples of the word ‘forever’ limited to the duration of the entity spoken of.
As the ‘lake of fire’ symbolizes the ‘second death’ (20:14) there are no grounds to state that objects thrown into it are not exterminated.We must go against common sense (what happens to something thrown into a fire), common biblical usage of ‘fire and brimstone’ denoting destruction, and explicit statements of its fatal nature if we are to make the ‘lake of fire’ mean endless torment and not a picture of cremation.

Neither can it be urged that ‘the second death’ does not mean extinction, for again that is its most natural meaning. The burden falls on the orthodox to show that ‘second death’ means endless, conscious suffering, but again this would be too far a stretch. To call something ‘second’ it must bear some resemblance to a ‘first,’ and as the first death resembles nothing remotely close to a conscious torment, we are not justified in concluding that the ‘second’ will be of that nature. On the contrary, the first death resulted in the extinction of life, compelling the belief that the second death will do the same. The only difference being the first death is interrupted by a resurrection (20:12,13), the second time kills permanently.

Death and Hades (20:14) are also thrown into it. Everlasting torment would make nonsense of the symbolism, as ‘death and Hades’ cannot be tormented. Annihilation, on the other hand, suits the imagery perfectly. Clearly they are pictured as being abolished and brought to nothing for what else could it mean to put ‘death and Hades’ into the ‘second death?’ So when it is said that the beast will be go to ‘destruction’ (17:8,11), it is understood to mean that it will suffer the same fate of death and Hades – extinction.

Furthermore, Luke 4:34 and Mark 1:24 specifically mention that the demons expected and feared destruction, “Have you come to destroy us?” Matthew 8:29 and Mark 5:7 mention that the demons also expected and feared ‘torment,’ however this only shows there would be suffering involved in the punishment which would destroy them.

There is no place in the new creation for unrighteous beings, and consequently, the devil will have no existence in the new order where all submit to Christ, reconciled to God who is all in all. The point is most famously pictured in the apocalypse where envisioned are the creation of a new heaven and new earth for the first ones passed away. God will dwell there, He will wipe away every tear, there will no longer be death, mourning, crying or pain, for the ‘first things have passed away.’ God is ‘making all things new’ (Revelation 21:1-5). No wicked creature, angel or man, has any part or right to the new kingdom or new creation. Their part is in the lake of fire, which is the second death (21:8), which does not belong to the new creation. It, with all its inhabitants, will pass away with the first order of things. To imagine, then, after reading the above, that Paul, Peter and John envisioned a place of suffering, sentient, rebellious and unrighteous creatures, not only existing in the new creation, but existing for as long as the kingdom of God, is preposterous in the highest degree. Sin and sinners were all to be annihilated with the old creation and only righteousness would dwell in the new heavens and new earth.

Reason with the above,sleep on it and thank God in the morning for his love and mercy.

For those who still think eternal death isn't a big enough punishment,go to the peeps on death row and ask them what they think.Then tell them that if they weren't going to be kiiled that they could live FOREVER in a MUCH better permanent peaceful world without sorrow death or tears with clean air surrounded by nothing but beauty and perfection.Then tell them they still have to die..forever..that they won't get to see it for even a moment,but that they COULD'VE seen it for eternity had they chosen Jehovah's way .Still think the punishment isn't big?I'm thinkin I'd rather have my left arm chopped off and my right eye poked with a nail a million times than to miss out on what God has promised.

"When we seriously reflect on the significance of such a hopeful
and joy-inspiring vision of what the future holds for the
righteous, is it reasonable to believe that the one who intends to
create a world where “pain shall no longer exist,” and who
intends to “make all things new” will, on the other hand,
preserve a corresponding realm or co-existing dimension where
the wicked will be kept alive against their will to be consciously
tortured by fire throughout the endless stretches of eternity,
without the remotest possibility of relief or cessation? What
would be the benefit or purpose of this? And how would such
truly harmonize with the spirit of God’s intention to ultimately
“make all things new” through Jesus Christ?"`~Patrick Navas(who wrote a paper on Revelation 20:10..google it.)

Tuesday, March 10, 2009

9 big lies in Christianity

I've been through these lies before but since the key and core doctrines of christendom are based upon these I feel it is important to emphasize BIBLICAL christianity.As opposed to Platonic or Papal or Creedal "christianity".

**Lie # 1:Death is the separation of the soul from the body.Souls never die.

*Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

*Ezekial 18:4 :Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

*Psalm 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.(spirit is "breath of life" like that which Jah gave Adam in order to be animate..that which can be restored upon resurrection)

*Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.(hell=gehenna(in this instance),where everything is burned up,consumed,annihilated)

*Matthew 9:23-25, John 11:11-14, Jeremiah 51:39, Acts 7:60-sleeping(IF the soul is alive burning or in heaven,then why a need for a resurrection at all or a FUTURE judgment day at all?Wouldn't the soul burning alive or existing in heaven dictate that a judgment has ALREADY been made?Wouldn't all the people who were resurrected in the word of God at least have mentioned the torment or bliss they had been brought back from?And wouldn't it have been intolerable cruelty to bring someone back from their "home with God?")

**Lie # 2:God is three persons.

*Deuteronomy 6:4 (New International Version)
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one


Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The LORD our God is one LORD; or The LORD is our God, the LORD is one ; or The LORD is our God, the LORD alone

*Deuteronomy 32:39:there is no God besides Me(as opposed to "US")

*Isaiah 37:16:You are God, You alone(as opposed to "you are God..you three alone "OR "You three are God alone")

*Isaiah 43:10-11:Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me(as opposed to "there is no God but us and we are three.")

*Isaiah 46:9:I am God, and there is no other(as opposed to "I am God and there are two others")

*John 5:44:How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? (as opposed to "the only God who I am 1/3 of")

*James 2:19:You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble!(as opposed to "one God,three persons")

*1 Corinthians 8:4:Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one(as opposed to three)

*Jude 1:24:the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord(as opposed to the three personed god our savior,through one of the persons in the same God)
*Matthew 16:15 He said to them: “you, though, who do you say I am?” 16 In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”(as opposed to "You are God the son,coequal and cosubstantial with God the father,one hundred percent God on top of one hundred percent man,and sometimes you let your human nature trump your God nature when you don't know certain things and when the human will is different from your "God will" then the human will sometimes wins because well,why wouldn't it?)

*John 17:3: This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.(as opposed to "taking in knowledge of you ,the only true God which includes the Lord I am about to mention in the same God I just mentioned.)

Sadly,I could go on forever.

**Lie # 3:Those before the throne have to be in heaven.And they can't be on earth because God is with them!(from revelation 7:9,which I think pertains to those on earth who survive the great tribulation)

The greek word translated "before" is enopion and means "in the sight of" and is used several times of humans on earth who are "before" or "in the sight of" Jehovah(from Revelation book,a WTBTS publication)

*Romans 14:22: The faith that you have, have it in accord with yourself in the sight of God. Happy is the man that does not put himself on judgment by what he approves.

*Galatians 1:20: Now as to the things I am writing you, look! in the sight of God, I am not lying.

I would venture so amazingly far as to say we are before God's throne,all of us,RIGHT NOW.

Revelation 21:3: With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (I believe this is referring to those on earth..Some Christians say that is impossible because God doesn't dwell with anyone on earth)

Leviticus 26:11,12:11 And I shall certainly put my tabernacle in the midst of you,and my soul will not abhor you. 12 And I shall indeed walk in the midst of you and prove myself your God, and you,on your part, will prove yourselves my people
In other words,when people obey God and seek him,even on earth,he DOES dwell with them,figuratively.Remember Adam and Eve had a direct relationship with Jehovah before they sinned and they sure didn't live in heaven.

Reasons why I think they ARE on earth..
1.They have palm branches,which to me screams "peace on earth"..it's possible I'm wrong but it's an opinion)

2.It is said they won't have to worry about the scorching sun or tears etc,all things people on earth would have to worry about,not those in heaven.

6.Why would God need to spread his tent over the heavens?Also,see all texts about the earth being populated forever and Jehovah never abandoning his purposes..one of which is paradise :))

The list ACTUALLY goes on and on.

**Lie # 4: All good people go to heaven.

*Matthew 5:5: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

*Psalm 37:29: The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

**Lie # 5:The lake of fire and eternal fire are literal.The Rich man and Lazarus are literal..

Few facts..If the Rich man and Lazarus is literal then you will live in Abraham's busom when you go to heaven.You will also be chit chatting with those burning alive in hell while you are in Abraham's busom in heaven.And all those in that fire will need is a lil drop of water and all will be well.Without research and by memory,I will say for right now that I THINK Lazarus symbolizes Good Christians in Jehovah's favor (busom position means in a favorable close relationship) ,Abraham symbolizes Jehovah,The rich man symbolizes people like the Pharisees who are spiritually ostracized from God and cannot possess his favor because they are not approved.Their judgment will be destruction and that IS the torment..their spiritual darkness,ostracization and ultimate annihilation.After all,fire CONSUMES what it burns and those in it become stubble,ashes,destroyed.Now Fire is used to symbolize that destruction from which there can be no resurrection so that is the judgment that is harsher than others.Those who have no chance of resurrection.In the OT when evil cities were burned up it was a COMPLETE AND UTTER annihilation,never to be inhabited again.I think this is the difference in hades and sheol and gehenna..Gehenna is like the lake of fire,NO resurrection,no hope.

*Revelation 21:8 their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death

*Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

*Psalms 115:17-dead are silent,don't praise Jah

*Malachi 4:1:For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

**Lie # 6:Once saved,always saved.

*1 Corinthians6:9 What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.

*Phillipians 2:12:Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that you have always obeyed, not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling

*Hebrews 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

* 1 John 5:3: For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments

*Zephaniah 2:3:seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.

*Romans 2:6 And he will render to each one according to his works: 7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good

*1 Corinthians 10:12 Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall

**Lie # 7:There can't be two creators or two saviors.Therefore,Jesus IS Jehovah.

..If you can't discern the following and what it means then I can't reason with ya.

*Jude 25: to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah(as opposed to the only God our savior through another person in the same God,God the son Jesus,but not with the exclusion of the third person who I seem to be forgetting to mention a lot.)

* 1 Corinthians 8:6:yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.(as opposed to one God the father from whom everything came and one other person in the same God,God the son Jesus Christ,THROUGH whom everything came.)

Ever heard of God using people to make things happen?And doesn't it make sense that he has a chief agent and a MOST beloved and a firstborn son(who had to be MADE firstborn Ps. 89:27)("firstborn" connotates inheritances...yes!Jesus will inherit a kingdom as his most beloved firstborn.) who he would use to accomplish his will?God can't be contained in flesh and he can't be a man who can die(he's consistently imperishable.) And neither can another supposed person in the same God if that person is the same God as the other.Unbiblical philosophical creed spoutin nonsense!

Yep,anyone Jehovah uses to save or make all things new,as an agent,can be called savior and creator.But we aren't left in the dark who used them as a tool,albeit a mighty and beloved and elevated one.That's right JEHOVAH sends.JEHOVAH gives his spirit without measure.JEHOVAH sustains and saves THROUGH others.Who's behind the wheel ultimately?The one who uses or the one who is used?The One who gives the spirit or the one who is given the spirit?

*Lie # 8:Jesus only appeared to be fully man..he was REALLY also 100 percent God.

*Matthew 4:1-2; Mark 1:13 compare to Titus 1:2; James 1:13(stop saying a human nature limits a God nature..that is not even a possibility)

*Hebrews 2:17 :For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.(are his brothers 100 percent God too?)

*Hebrews 4:15: For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.(Remember he was the Last Adam,who COULD'VE been without sin if he had relied upon Jehovah as heavily as Jesus did..in other words "without sin" doesn't mean he is God,it means he supplicated continually,relied on the spirit of his God and father to make it through,and conquered the world DESPITE being legitimately tempted and tried..a TRUE inspiration and example,as opposed to a pretender who couldn't REALLY succumb to temptation or be tried or die completely)

*Luke 2:52:Jesus grew in wisdom (God grew in wisdom?)

*Hebrews 5:8: Jesus learnt obedience (God learned obedience?)

*Lie # 9:Jesus never really died..his soul always lived.

Souls don't have immortality unless Jehovah allows them to.Jesus was GIFTED immortality AFTER being raised on the third day.Anything outside that is an unbiblical assumption inspired by philosophy and lies about the soul.

*Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

*Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever!

The actual PERSON of Jesus died,or Jesus lied.A flesh capsule with no person in it cannot properly die.