In the bible, fire sometimes goes unquenched until it does & finishes it's job..which is to consume or devour what it touches ending in utter irreversible annihilation. Proof:
Ezekial 20:47:Say to the southern forest: 'Hear the word of the LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am about to set fire to you, and it will consume all your trees, both green and dry. The blazing flame will not be quenched, and every face from south to north will be scorched by it.
We have here an "unquenchable flame" that "consumes" all the trees of a forest. So if scripture uses this phrase, namely "unquenchable fire", in such a way, why is it apropos for Christians to assign it the opposite meaning from the one scripture truly does? According to scripture, a fire that cannot be quenched "consumes". It doesn't preserve infinitely whatever it touches. Unless you somehow inexplicably and unreasonably believe the consumed and destroyed forest is still burning alive and intact in those unquenchable flames, trees proudly standing tall forever as they burn perpetually any way but down..If one were to go there right after such an event, would the trees still be standing up burning and never being consumed, or would the forest be destroyed and quite literally devoured?
Let's examine another text wherein scripture will again define it's own phrases and terms for you (in this case "unquenchable fire" is the widely misused phrase and concept in question) so that you won't have to rely upon tradition or fallible uninspired preachers to do so.
Amos 5:6:Seek the LORD and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire; it will devour, and Bethel will have no one to quench it.
So,yet again,we have a fire that cannot be quenched "devouring" as opposed to "preserving infinitely." Yet typically,Christian traditionalists wouldn't hesitate, due to deceptive tradition and powerful indoctrination, to assign this phrase with the opposite meaning from the one scripture deliberately and explicitly articulates. It's neither sound nor remotely okay to do so considering the doctrines that result from such unfathomable and egregious misuse. If you don't want to believe the Old Testament inspired writers, how about the New? Do they use the phrase as the OT writers do or do they make up a new meaning like Christian traditionalists do who have listened to their uninspired money-making preachers for too long? We shall see:
Matthew 3:12:His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
I doubt anyone would dare to argue that the chaff doesn't represent the wicked here. Katakaio is the Greek word for "burn up" in Matt. 3:12 and it literally means to "consume wholly" or "burn up utterly"..
So what it sounds like is John the Baptist using a phrase he borrowed from OT writers & proceeding to use it in the exact same way they did. If it consumes and destroys whatever it touches, why suggest it doesn't? And John didn't mean an eternal consumption whereby nothing was ever literally ever destroyed by a bona fide devouring..for that would be an alarming & absurd attempt to assign the phrases he borrows from OT writers with the opposite meaning they've already aptly assigned them yet again. Kind of desperate and definitely unwarranted.
Simple questions, in summary?
1. What does unquenchable fire do to the southern forests in Ez. 20:47?
2. What would the unquenchable fire do to the house of Joseph in Amos 5:6?
3. What would unquenchable fire do to the wicked in Matthew 3:12?
4. Do you believe it?Or have you assigned this phrase a new meaning to preserve a teaching and philosophy of men?
This isn't me looking to scholars or preachers or books other than scripture to make arguments. This is a simplistic kindergarten reading of obvious texts to come to an easy and sound conclusion that disagrees with the majority of Christians. Those who inexplicably believe unquenchable fire never consumes or devours in quite the way scripture says it does, explicitly. This to me is not only concerning but downright easily resolved to any unblinded eyes. It really is as simple as reading the texts where this concept is used and proceeding to believe scripture's usage instead of a manmade misuse of it. If one desperately attempts to assign "consume" or "devour" a meaning as anything but what those terms naturally mean and inevitably lead to, it will ultimately become an exercise in futility considering that there is simply no arguing with the fact that forests don't get "infinitely consumed and destroyed" in fire wherein they don't burn up literally in an act of irreversible destruction. When Christians try to assign that desperate meaning(that fire preserves instead of consumes,keeps alive instead of destroying) of these terms in relation to the wicked, they are apparently making the decision to define scripture by their own ideas instead of letting it define its own phrases and terms. Not cool.
God doesn't take too kindly to potentially stumbling ideas. If I was convinced as most Christians are of the reality of most of mankind suffering sadistically ceaselessly in flames that never ever go out, not only could I not stand the idea, but I couldn't fathomably live peacefully, righteously, and blissfully in a kingdom where this atrocity is occurring to most everyone I've ever known and loved. That wouldn't even be possible because there is simply no such thing as righteous sadism. That's why we crave and need the kingdom in the first place. Because of the suffering in this world. So if you propagate suffering immeasurably worse than what we've ever conceived even in this wicked world forever even after the kingdom has come, you're deceived and deceiving.It isn't supported either by scripture or the most basic instincts of common sense, righteousness, and compassion. Even the basest of human beings would be appalled by infinite widespread sadism of the sort hellfire would be, yet some Christians act as if it's sensical. Disturbing.
Showing posts with label immortal soul. Show all posts
Showing posts with label immortal soul. Show all posts
Sunday, September 16, 2012
Wednesday, August 3, 2011
Are death and immortality synonyms?
Your typical orthodox Christian believes that man was made in God's image and hence can never *truly* die in that death to them means only a body dies while a soul lives on.In other words,to typical Christians,even death means life.Even in death there exists immortality.They don't think the person perishes,only the person's body with no one in it.The bible says in 1 Tim 6:15-16:
"God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,who *alone* is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light"
From what I've examined prayerfully in scripture(and this paragraph is kind of on a side note..forgive me),when the bible says God "alone" is something,it doesn't mean no one else can be.What it means is that no one else is but by his granting or allowance.In other words,God gives to all and no one has to give him anything at all.For him,it's a "given."For us,it's a "gift."For example,scripture says God alone is immortal,but others can be MADE immortal by him.God alone is savior,but others can be sent by him to save,essentially becoming saviors...etc..(Isaiah 43:11,1 Samuel 23:5)
If God makes us immortal or grants us the gift of everlasting life,it is only then that we can boast of possessing what God originally intended for man before sin entered the picture.No,those overcome with sin do not receive immortality.This should be clear.In fact,it was God's whole point in Genesis when conversing with Adam about the consequences of failing to exercise faith properly.Immortality and life after death weren't the outcome of disobedience!So why is it taught by mainstream Christianity that disobedience breeds immortality just like exercising faith does?
I'm not sure what God could have possibly said to define death for us so that we could know what it is.Could he have said that the dead don't think or breathe?Well,he did.(Ps. 146:4)Could he have said they sleep and cease to function?Well,he did.(Ecclesiastes 9:5,10,John 1:11)Could he have said that the only hope is a resurrection BACK to life to prove that the dead aren't alive?Well,he did.(John 5:25,Acts 24:15)The Book of Wisdom says in 2:23,24(from the New Jerusalem Bible):
"For God created human beings to be immortal,he made them as an image of his own nature;*Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy*,as those who belong to him find to their cost."
Here the author agrees with the bible when it contrasts,as opposed to compares,immortality and death.Here we see that God intended man to live forever,inhabiting and caring for a perfect earth in peace and happiness(according to Genesis),but death came upon men through the sin of the first man.(Romans 5:17,18)It is only an exercising of faith in the Lord and his God that we receive the GIFT(as opposed to the "given") of immortality.If sinners automatically receive everlasting life(in whatever capacity) this would make moot of God's sentiments to the first Adam that he would "surely die" if he were to sin.(Gen. 2:17)God should have said something like "you will surely live forever in agony instead of bliss" instead were the orthodox view of death palpable.Death is the stark opposite of life.In life there is breath and vitality and awakeness.In death,lack of breath and unconsciousness.Again,death is the antithesis to life as opposed to the equivalent.God uses terminology such as "ashes" and the like to communicate easy reasoning about death for our consideration,to define it precisely for us in fact so that Plato and others shouldn't have been able to fool us.When we go beyond that terminology with our own ideas is when we fall into error.God used specific language to educate and instruct us, and I would guess he never desired for us to discard common sense use of the simplistic terminology he kindly provided by going (far)beyond what he said with contradictory propositions to accommodate long held traditions.The bible says in Deuteronomy 30:19:
"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Here again we have a clear contrast in life and death.They are not synonyms.If death meant "life in bliss" or "life in hell" after the body dies with no one in it,then it would be a synonym with life.Where IS the contrast in life and death,in turning to ashes and receiving immortality for Christians?If you don't comprehend the simple and appropriate contrast,then when and how was it lost?Ashes,consumption,not breathing or thinking,sleeping(etc.) all apparently mean "awake and alive"(nonsensically enough) to Christians.
The bible doesn't define immortality as two types..one good,the other scary.It defines our hope of glory in Christ as an immortality worth seeking with everything we have,every ounce of that concept of immortality being fantastic!Nothing scary about it.Gehenna(hell in Greek) is scary,but it consumes.(Matt. 3:12,Mal. 4:3)Yes,the fate of those who don't seek the precious gift of immortality is described as "death","perishing","destruction","consumption","ashes".(Rom. 6:23,Jn. 3:16,Matt. 3:12,Mal. 4:3)The wicked are tossed into the lake of fire(or the second death from which there can be no resurrection in it's frightening hopeless finality)along with death and hades.The bible also says death will "exist no more"..It is the last enemy to be utterly destroyed.(1 Cor. 15:26)So apparently whatever is thrown into the lake of fire(including the wicked and death) will be utterly and irreversibly destroyed.(Rev. 20:14,Matt. 10:28)Therefore there is no "eternal dying process" nor blessed gift of immortality for the wicked.How could anyone miss these basic truths?
2 Tim. 4:3:For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
You simply cannot say death will be no more when it's tossed in the lake of fire but that the wicked will be forevermore alive in the flames of that same lake.That would defy logic and basic common sense,assigning the same lake within the same scriptural passage with two different functions,to suit a theological presupposition.This would not be honest exegesis,but rather egregious eisegesis.The two functions that Christians assign the same lake in the same text are to preserve the wicked while destroying death.Two complete opposite functions from the same source within the same text!While they at the same time propagate the opposite of what the bible says when they claim that death will actually exist forever in a process of sadistic torture for the wicked.If death for the wicked means eternal life in flames and death will be destroyed,then how could death be perpetuated eternally in flames that preserve the wicked infinitely?Either death will be destroyed OR there will be an "eternal dying process",which is how I've heard some Christian apologists describe the fate of the unrighteous.It can't be both ways.I'm sure many traditionalists would say "death will be no more for the righteous but perpetuated infinitely only for the wicked."However,the bible simply says that it won't be anymore at all,while failing to acknowledge it's preservation for most of humanity like traditionalists choose to do.If there is automatic immortality in death for both the righteous and unrighteous(according to traditionalists),would it be true that those who inherit the kingdom of God will be dead eternally?If the dead are alive(both the righteous and unrighteous dead),I'm assuming so?
One of the most enticing savory morsels of good news in scripture is that the righteous can receive immortality.This gift of eternal life for us was manifest when God's "word of life",or his plans to give life to the world, became flesh in Yahushua.(1 John 1:1,2,John 1:14)This eternal life plan of the Father for mankind in his beloved Son will culminate in a kingdom where death will be no more,neither sickness,mourning nor pain.(Rev. 21:3,4)Yah's kingdom will put an end to all the kingdoms of this world and will last forever and ever.(Dan. 2:44)So question is:
"Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God..(2 Peter 3:11-13)"
Yes,"according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."(2 Peter 3:13)Like our Lord said: "blessed are the meek,for they shall inherit the earth."(Matt. 5:5)
God has put it in out hearts to desire immortality and to desire his approval and love because that's what he can provide for us.(Ecc. 3:11)He doesn't give us any righteous desire that he isn't willing to meet if we listen to him.(Eph. 3:20)The immortality he put in our hearts wasn't a promise of eternal pain for us if we're wicked in one of it's supposed two spectrums.Put quite simply,so that even a child could understand:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."(Rom. 6:23)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."(John 3:16)
Again we have a contrasting of death and perishing with eternal life.They're not synonyms in any respect.One involves lack of breath and life..the other breath and life eternally.The latter is God's word made flesh.Our hope of glory in Christ.Thy kingdom come!
The former(death) is described further in the book of Wisdom(which I will end here with because it was Wisdom 2:23,24 that inspired this blog to begin with):
"The breath in our nostrils is a puff of smoke,reason a spark from the beating of our hearts;extinguish this and the body turns to ashes,and the spirit melts away like the yielding air."
Scripture is clear that when the spirit leaves the body,there is no life left anywhere except that God can return your life in a resurrection.Hence the metaphorical "spirit returning to God" when we die because he will give our lives and breath and animation(spirits) back in a resurrection.(Spirit means "breath" but entails more in that there's a spark of life that animates our souls.)In this remarkable sense,our "spirits" are in God's hands.The focus is always life in a resurrection..as opposed to life in death.There is life in death only in the sense that the dead are promised a resurrection.The resurrection is of entire persons and not bodies with no persons in them,common sensically as well as biblically.When Yahushua preached that we would be raised at the last day,he wasn't preaching that we'd already be alive before we came back alive.If so,surely there would have been some serious clarification somewhere because that notion would be astounding considering our hope from biblical cover to cover is a resurrection back to life FROM death,as opposed to life AT or IN death(as if they're synonyms instead of antonyms)itself.God doesn't intend to confuse us with basic essential doctrines.He states them so simply that even children can grasp the truth.(see John 3:16,again)Seek for immortality.If you do not exercise faith,God did not promise it to you.Those who teach eternal life(even if it's in torment) for the wicked misunderstand a very basic bible truth.Follow the path of Yahushua and let everyone know they can receive eternal life in a resurrection if they exercise faith in the Messiah.
"God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,who *alone* is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light"
From what I've examined prayerfully in scripture(and this paragraph is kind of on a side note..forgive me),when the bible says God "alone" is something,it doesn't mean no one else can be.What it means is that no one else is but by his granting or allowance.In other words,God gives to all and no one has to give him anything at all.For him,it's a "given."For us,it's a "gift."For example,scripture says God alone is immortal,but others can be MADE immortal by him.God alone is savior,but others can be sent by him to save,essentially becoming saviors...etc..(Isaiah 43:11,1 Samuel 23:5)
If God makes us immortal or grants us the gift of everlasting life,it is only then that we can boast of possessing what God originally intended for man before sin entered the picture.No,those overcome with sin do not receive immortality.This should be clear.In fact,it was God's whole point in Genesis when conversing with Adam about the consequences of failing to exercise faith properly.Immortality and life after death weren't the outcome of disobedience!So why is it taught by mainstream Christianity that disobedience breeds immortality just like exercising faith does?
I'm not sure what God could have possibly said to define death for us so that we could know what it is.Could he have said that the dead don't think or breathe?Well,he did.(Ps. 146:4)Could he have said they sleep and cease to function?Well,he did.(Ecclesiastes 9:5,10,John 1:11)Could he have said that the only hope is a resurrection BACK to life to prove that the dead aren't alive?Well,he did.(John 5:25,Acts 24:15)The Book of Wisdom says in 2:23,24(from the New Jerusalem Bible):
"For God created human beings to be immortal,he made them as an image of his own nature;*Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy*,as those who belong to him find to their cost."
Here the author agrees with the bible when it contrasts,as opposed to compares,immortality and death.Here we see that God intended man to live forever,inhabiting and caring for a perfect earth in peace and happiness(according to Genesis),but death came upon men through the sin of the first man.(Romans 5:17,18)It is only an exercising of faith in the Lord and his God that we receive the GIFT(as opposed to the "given") of immortality.If sinners automatically receive everlasting life(in whatever capacity) this would make moot of God's sentiments to the first Adam that he would "surely die" if he were to sin.(Gen. 2:17)God should have said something like "you will surely live forever in agony instead of bliss" instead were the orthodox view of death palpable.Death is the stark opposite of life.In life there is breath and vitality and awakeness.In death,lack of breath and unconsciousness.Again,death is the antithesis to life as opposed to the equivalent.God uses terminology such as "ashes" and the like to communicate easy reasoning about death for our consideration,to define it precisely for us in fact so that Plato and others shouldn't have been able to fool us.When we go beyond that terminology with our own ideas is when we fall into error.God used specific language to educate and instruct us, and I would guess he never desired for us to discard common sense use of the simplistic terminology he kindly provided by going (far)beyond what he said with contradictory propositions to accommodate long held traditions.The bible says in Deuteronomy 30:19:
"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Here again we have a clear contrast in life and death.They are not synonyms.If death meant "life in bliss" or "life in hell" after the body dies with no one in it,then it would be a synonym with life.Where IS the contrast in life and death,in turning to ashes and receiving immortality for Christians?If you don't comprehend the simple and appropriate contrast,then when and how was it lost?Ashes,consumption,not breathing or thinking,sleeping(etc.) all apparently mean "awake and alive"(nonsensically enough) to Christians.
The bible doesn't define immortality as two types..one good,the other scary.It defines our hope of glory in Christ as an immortality worth seeking with everything we have,every ounce of that concept of immortality being fantastic!Nothing scary about it.Gehenna(hell in Greek) is scary,but it consumes.(Matt. 3:12,Mal. 4:3)Yes,the fate of those who don't seek the precious gift of immortality is described as "death","perishing","destruction","consumption","ashes".(Rom. 6:23,Jn. 3:16,Matt. 3:12,Mal. 4:3)The wicked are tossed into the lake of fire(or the second death from which there can be no resurrection in it's frightening hopeless finality)along with death and hades.The bible also says death will "exist no more"..It is the last enemy to be utterly destroyed.(1 Cor. 15:26)So apparently whatever is thrown into the lake of fire(including the wicked and death) will be utterly and irreversibly destroyed.(Rev. 20:14,Matt. 10:28)Therefore there is no "eternal dying process" nor blessed gift of immortality for the wicked.How could anyone miss these basic truths?
2 Tim. 4:3:For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
You simply cannot say death will be no more when it's tossed in the lake of fire but that the wicked will be forevermore alive in the flames of that same lake.That would defy logic and basic common sense,assigning the same lake within the same scriptural passage with two different functions,to suit a theological presupposition.This would not be honest exegesis,but rather egregious eisegesis.The two functions that Christians assign the same lake in the same text are to preserve the wicked while destroying death.Two complete opposite functions from the same source within the same text!While they at the same time propagate the opposite of what the bible says when they claim that death will actually exist forever in a process of sadistic torture for the wicked.If death for the wicked means eternal life in flames and death will be destroyed,then how could death be perpetuated eternally in flames that preserve the wicked infinitely?Either death will be destroyed OR there will be an "eternal dying process",which is how I've heard some Christian apologists describe the fate of the unrighteous.It can't be both ways.I'm sure many traditionalists would say "death will be no more for the righteous but perpetuated infinitely only for the wicked."However,the bible simply says that it won't be anymore at all,while failing to acknowledge it's preservation for most of humanity like traditionalists choose to do.If there is automatic immortality in death for both the righteous and unrighteous(according to traditionalists),would it be true that those who inherit the kingdom of God will be dead eternally?If the dead are alive(both the righteous and unrighteous dead),I'm assuming so?
One of the most enticing savory morsels of good news in scripture is that the righteous can receive immortality.This gift of eternal life for us was manifest when God's "word of life",or his plans to give life to the world, became flesh in Yahushua.(1 John 1:1,2,John 1:14)This eternal life plan of the Father for mankind in his beloved Son will culminate in a kingdom where death will be no more,neither sickness,mourning nor pain.(Rev. 21:3,4)Yah's kingdom will put an end to all the kingdoms of this world and will last forever and ever.(Dan. 2:44)So question is:
"Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God..(2 Peter 3:11-13)"
Yes,"according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."(2 Peter 3:13)Like our Lord said: "blessed are the meek,for they shall inherit the earth."(Matt. 5:5)
God has put it in out hearts to desire immortality and to desire his approval and love because that's what he can provide for us.(Ecc. 3:11)He doesn't give us any righteous desire that he isn't willing to meet if we listen to him.(Eph. 3:20)The immortality he put in our hearts wasn't a promise of eternal pain for us if we're wicked in one of it's supposed two spectrums.Put quite simply,so that even a child could understand:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."(Rom. 6:23)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."(John 3:16)
Again we have a contrasting of death and perishing with eternal life.They're not synonyms in any respect.One involves lack of breath and life..the other breath and life eternally.The latter is God's word made flesh.Our hope of glory in Christ.Thy kingdom come!
The former(death) is described further in the book of Wisdom(which I will end here with because it was Wisdom 2:23,24 that inspired this blog to begin with):
"The breath in our nostrils is a puff of smoke,reason a spark from the beating of our hearts;extinguish this and the body turns to ashes,and the spirit melts away like the yielding air."
Scripture is clear that when the spirit leaves the body,there is no life left anywhere except that God can return your life in a resurrection.Hence the metaphorical "spirit returning to God" when we die because he will give our lives and breath and animation(spirits) back in a resurrection.(Spirit means "breath" but entails more in that there's a spark of life that animates our souls.)In this remarkable sense,our "spirits" are in God's hands.The focus is always life in a resurrection..as opposed to life in death.There is life in death only in the sense that the dead are promised a resurrection.The resurrection is of entire persons and not bodies with no persons in them,common sensically as well as biblically.When Yahushua preached that we would be raised at the last day,he wasn't preaching that we'd already be alive before we came back alive.If so,surely there would have been some serious clarification somewhere because that notion would be astounding considering our hope from biblical cover to cover is a resurrection back to life FROM death,as opposed to life AT or IN death(as if they're synonyms instead of antonyms)itself.God doesn't intend to confuse us with basic essential doctrines.He states them so simply that even children can grasp the truth.(see John 3:16,again)Seek for immortality.If you do not exercise faith,God did not promise it to you.Those who teach eternal life(even if it's in torment) for the wicked misunderstand a very basic bible truth.Follow the path of Yahushua and let everyone know they can receive eternal life in a resurrection if they exercise faith in the Messiah.
Tuesday, May 31, 2011
Resurrection glory
I love the way Brad(humanityofjesus on youtube) teaches.Very humbly,sincerely,and soundly.I only hope Yahushua by the spirit will work though him to compel others to the true God and the true Son of God.It doesn't happen overnight that seeds grow,but they can and do.:)The truth is so simple,beautiful and important.
Sunday, May 15, 2011
Does Luke 23:43 prove that the dead are alive in Paradise?
Luke 23:43: And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”(according to most translations, that is)
I will be assessing this verse in three ways:
1.Gramatically
2.Contextually &
3.Logically as well as biblically speaking
Right off the bat,let's examine the grammar.Because there is no punctuation in the Greek here,it depends upon where the comma is placed within this passage what the true intent of Yahushua was in his statement therein.First,does the bible provide any precedent that the comma can be placed AFTER the word today?Absolutely.Please examine:
Deut. 30:18:I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish.
Acts 20:26:Why I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
The grammar is possible either way.If you look at bias sites,you will find bias opinions.Scripture from cover to cover should be the determining factor.Obviously in texts like the above, "today" or "this day" is said to emphasize a point,not to propose that what was being said would actually occur on that day.
A website says:
"the phrase in verse 43, “I tell you the truth today,” was a common Hebrew idiom used to emphasize the solemnity and importance of an occasion or moment." (compare Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11, Josh. 23:14).(from:http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=370 )
All that being said,it should go without saying that Yahushua isn't going to propose something that would contradict clear and prevailing revelations throughout his father's word.So to establish those revelations,let's examine the context itself of the passage in question as well as the passages that cannot be contradicted throughout the bible itself to help establish an interpretation of Luke 23:43 itself that doesn't negate prevailing biblical sentiments.First,context.
It is paradise that we inherit when Christ returns and the earth is made new,not anytime before that if we are to believe common sense scriptures.Perhaps that is why the man on the cross said “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (Lk. 23:42)Perhaps that is also why Yahushua stressed that he would remember the thief in his kingdom.After all,isn't his kingdom "paradise"?As Anthony Buzzard notes "the Lord's assertion more than satisfies the thief's request."("What happens when we die?" p. 56)Since when was "sheol"(in Hebrew) or "hades"(in Greek),which is where the dead go until they're resurrected, "paradise" anyway?(Job 14:13,Acts 2:31)
Yahushua said in Luke 22:18(not long before he addressed the malefactor on the cross) :"I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."To which I suppose a traditionalist Christian could say: "Why not..if you'll be in Paradise the day you die?"Acts 2:31 says about Yahushua that "he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption."So apparently unless one is resurrected from the GRAVE,as opposed to "Paradise" where it seems everything would be beautifully preserved,the "flesh"(yes,proving actual "flesh" must be in Hades)would decay.If Hades is a Paradise of disembodied souls,why is there flesh there and why does it decay?
I would suggest that when Yahushua addressed the man in Luke that what came to mind for this criminal was the Garden of Eden that Adam lost.(Rev. 2:7,22:2)Adam lived there with his body intact.And thanks to the Last Adam,we can too!!At the Last Day.(1 Thes. 4:17,2 Tim. 4:8)I would also suggest to you that the "tree of life" doesn't grow where the dead sleep.And that since the tree of life is in the "paradise of God" then the dead don't eat of it.Otherwise,what *exactly* was the curse for all sinful men Adam caused?To turn to dust *so that* you can eat of the tree of life?(Reason is called for.)That tree of life in God's paradise is obviously a gift bestowed not upon the dead,but rather upon the resurrected faithful.
If the dead are in some interim called paradise,it must be utterly silent without joy,breath,livelihood,any semblance of intellect,or even awakeness.Otherwise,what God has actually said irrefutably and rather plainly about their state would be utterly nonsensical.So now it's time for some holy scripture and logic.
Examine:
Ps. 115:17: The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any who go down into silence.
Ps. 146:4: His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Please note the passage says that *he* does,as opposed to a flesh capsule without *him* in it.When the spirit,or the breath of life,exits the body,the entire person ceases to breathe,think,or remain awake.At least according to plain unambiguous language.
Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, ..and verse 10:there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.(sheol is hades in Hebrew)
I could go on and on here describing the proper state of the dead,but I'll spare you.For those of you who believe that all the "silence" and "sleep" and "breath leaving the body as the thoughts perish" texts are in reference solely to a "body" with no one in it,then I suppose the only appeal I can make is for you to reconsider such an unwarranted leap,one made imo without any solid reason.That view is similar to the remarkable and unfounded view that much of what Christ accomplished was due to a "nature",(including even his very death!) and not the actual whole person of Yahushua *himself.*Why let theological presuppositions and long held traditional inferences butcher plain language?
Matthew 9:23-25, John 11:11-14, Jeremiah 51:39, Acts 7:60 all describe the dead as asleep(connoting God's ability to awake them in a resurrection)..Would "sleeping" be the best possible way to describe those who are awake in sheol or hades,which those who have misused Luke 23:43 have managed to call "Paradise"?It would seem to be,logically speaking,that the resurrections that took place in scripture would have been more like intolerable cruelty than a joyous occasion if the dead are alive in Paradise,given that a "resurrection" would rob them of their joy with God as spirits even as it gives them back their tainted flesh that often causes much discomfort and agony.(Rom. 7:18-25)I also find it interesting,and you can argue that I'm arguing from silence while I would say instead that we're commanded to reason(and so I will argue with that intact),that no one resurrected in scripture described how they were alive anywhere in a state of being awake and alive(in ANY condition) before they were made alive in the biblical records of resurrections performed by everyone from Elijah to Yahushua to Peter & Paul.
Please also note that all the dead are said to be in Sheol or Hades,so where is there a distinguishing mark between those who are wicked and those who are righteous?In other words,if Hades is the destination of all who die,how can it properly be called "Paradise"?Do the wicked inherit "Paradise" at death?If not,then how can sheol and hades actually BE Paradise?
For those of you who think hades and Paradise(assuming that you believe the dead are in both hades and Paradise because hades is in fact somehow Paradise) are also both somehow "heaven"(because in your theological view Paradise IS Heaven),then how could you possibly reconcile that with Christ's proclamation that he hadn't ascended to the father and didn't for 40 days(Jn. 20:17) and also the bible's revelation that none of God's faithful servants had either?(Acts 2:34)
Paul said in 2 Corinthians:
2 Cor. 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
Why would Paul scoff at the idea of being "unclothed" if God intends to "unclothe him" as a disembodied spirit in some interim supposedly called "Paradise"(where he's perfect & blissful with Yahushua mind you!) before he's resurrected?If that was God's intention,shouldn't Paul have rather "groaned" to be unclothed and free from the burden of his body so that he could be with Yahushua in Paradise as a spirit creature?Instead Paul says something very telling..he says "we may not be found naked. " and " we groan...*not that we would be unclothed*, but that we would be *further clothed*"Also, note how Paul contrasts "mortality" from "being swallowed up by life."If mortality actually entails being alive then the apparent contrast would be entirely lost..I logically detect no need of a resurrection at all if we're made perfect in Paradise with Christ the moment we die.What is so exceptional about regaining a body if Paradise is held in the palm of our hands without one?
As yet another reasoning point,wouldn't peace in "Paradise" with Yahushua be absolutely perfect?According to Heb. 11:40,all the faithful are made perfect TOGETHER,not apart from one another.And when?When they're resurrected,of course.(1 Cor. 15:52)So if the thief was made perfect apart from everyone else,the bible lies.
Significantly enough,Rom. 10:7 says Christ was in the *abyss* for 3 days like Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster(Matt. 12:40)i.e. NOT in paradise.The abyss,I can assure you,is not paradise.Yahushua said "*I* was dead."*I* entails an ego and mind in the Greek language so a *body* with no Yahushua in it isn't a sufficient death to save anyone.His mind,breath,and thoughts had to cease to function or he didn't die for anyone.If he was awake anywhere at all he didn't legitimately die for anyone.(John 11:11,Ps. 115:17,146:4)Bodies don't die without people in them,except by an absurd unwarranted inference,quite frankly initially based upon Platonic type philosophies of men.
In summary,the criminal on the cross(in context) is asking about assurance that he will be saved when Yahushua returns as king,not that *particular* day.Because the hope for all mankind from cover to cover is a resurrection to glory at the LAST DAY,and not glory before it.(2 Tim. 4:8,1 Cor. 15:52,1 Thes. 4:16)Again,either translation for Luke 23:43 is gramatically viable(in terms of comma placement),but the one that harmonizes with the bible's unambiguous declarations from cover to cover is the only one that can be right.
I will be assessing this verse in three ways:
1.Gramatically
2.Contextually &
3.Logically as well as biblically speaking
Right off the bat,let's examine the grammar.Because there is no punctuation in the Greek here,it depends upon where the comma is placed within this passage what the true intent of Yahushua was in his statement therein.First,does the bible provide any precedent that the comma can be placed AFTER the word today?Absolutely.Please examine:
Deut. 30:18:I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish.
Acts 20:26:Why I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
The grammar is possible either way.If you look at bias sites,you will find bias opinions.Scripture from cover to cover should be the determining factor.Obviously in texts like the above, "today" or "this day" is said to emphasize a point,not to propose that what was being said would actually occur on that day.
A website says:
"the phrase in verse 43, “I tell you the truth today,” was a common Hebrew idiom used to emphasize the solemnity and importance of an occasion or moment." (compare Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11, Josh. 23:14).(from:http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=370 )
All that being said,it should go without saying that Yahushua isn't going to propose something that would contradict clear and prevailing revelations throughout his father's word.So to establish those revelations,let's examine the context itself of the passage in question as well as the passages that cannot be contradicted throughout the bible itself to help establish an interpretation of Luke 23:43 itself that doesn't negate prevailing biblical sentiments.First,context.
It is paradise that we inherit when Christ returns and the earth is made new,not anytime before that if we are to believe common sense scriptures.Perhaps that is why the man on the cross said “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (Lk. 23:42)Perhaps that is also why Yahushua stressed that he would remember the thief in his kingdom.After all,isn't his kingdom "paradise"?As Anthony Buzzard notes "the Lord's assertion more than satisfies the thief's request."("What happens when we die?" p. 56)Since when was "sheol"(in Hebrew) or "hades"(in Greek),which is where the dead go until they're resurrected, "paradise" anyway?(Job 14:13,Acts 2:31)
Yahushua said in Luke 22:18(not long before he addressed the malefactor on the cross) :"I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."To which I suppose a traditionalist Christian could say: "Why not..if you'll be in Paradise the day you die?"Acts 2:31 says about Yahushua that "he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption."So apparently unless one is resurrected from the GRAVE,as opposed to "Paradise" where it seems everything would be beautifully preserved,the "flesh"(yes,proving actual "flesh" must be in Hades)would decay.If Hades is a Paradise of disembodied souls,why is there flesh there and why does it decay?
I would suggest that when Yahushua addressed the man in Luke that what came to mind for this criminal was the Garden of Eden that Adam lost.(Rev. 2:7,22:2)Adam lived there with his body intact.And thanks to the Last Adam,we can too!!At the Last Day.(1 Thes. 4:17,2 Tim. 4:8)I would also suggest to you that the "tree of life" doesn't grow where the dead sleep.And that since the tree of life is in the "paradise of God" then the dead don't eat of it.Otherwise,what *exactly* was the curse for all sinful men Adam caused?To turn to dust *so that* you can eat of the tree of life?(Reason is called for.)That tree of life in God's paradise is obviously a gift bestowed not upon the dead,but rather upon the resurrected faithful.
If the dead are in some interim called paradise,it must be utterly silent without joy,breath,livelihood,any semblance of intellect,or even awakeness.Otherwise,what God has actually said irrefutably and rather plainly about their state would be utterly nonsensical.So now it's time for some holy scripture and logic.
Examine:
Ps. 115:17: The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any who go down into silence.
Ps. 146:4: His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Please note the passage says that *he* does,as opposed to a flesh capsule without *him* in it.When the spirit,or the breath of life,exits the body,the entire person ceases to breathe,think,or remain awake.At least according to plain unambiguous language.
Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, ..and verse 10:there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.(sheol is hades in Hebrew)
I could go on and on here describing the proper state of the dead,but I'll spare you.For those of you who believe that all the "silence" and "sleep" and "breath leaving the body as the thoughts perish" texts are in reference solely to a "body" with no one in it,then I suppose the only appeal I can make is for you to reconsider such an unwarranted leap,one made imo without any solid reason.That view is similar to the remarkable and unfounded view that much of what Christ accomplished was due to a "nature",(including even his very death!) and not the actual whole person of Yahushua *himself.*Why let theological presuppositions and long held traditional inferences butcher plain language?
Matthew 9:23-25, John 11:11-14, Jeremiah 51:39, Acts 7:60 all describe the dead as asleep(connoting God's ability to awake them in a resurrection)..Would "sleeping" be the best possible way to describe those who are awake in sheol or hades,which those who have misused Luke 23:43 have managed to call "Paradise"?It would seem to be,logically speaking,that the resurrections that took place in scripture would have been more like intolerable cruelty than a joyous occasion if the dead are alive in Paradise,given that a "resurrection" would rob them of their joy with God as spirits even as it gives them back their tainted flesh that often causes much discomfort and agony.(Rom. 7:18-25)I also find it interesting,and you can argue that I'm arguing from silence while I would say instead that we're commanded to reason(and so I will argue with that intact),that no one resurrected in scripture described how they were alive anywhere in a state of being awake and alive(in ANY condition) before they were made alive in the biblical records of resurrections performed by everyone from Elijah to Yahushua to Peter & Paul.
Please also note that all the dead are said to be in Sheol or Hades,so where is there a distinguishing mark between those who are wicked and those who are righteous?In other words,if Hades is the destination of all who die,how can it properly be called "Paradise"?Do the wicked inherit "Paradise" at death?If not,then how can sheol and hades actually BE Paradise?
For those of you who think hades and Paradise(assuming that you believe the dead are in both hades and Paradise because hades is in fact somehow Paradise) are also both somehow "heaven"(because in your theological view Paradise IS Heaven),then how could you possibly reconcile that with Christ's proclamation that he hadn't ascended to the father and didn't for 40 days(Jn. 20:17) and also the bible's revelation that none of God's faithful servants had either?(Acts 2:34)
Paul said in 2 Corinthians:
2 Cor. 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
Why would Paul scoff at the idea of being "unclothed" if God intends to "unclothe him" as a disembodied spirit in some interim supposedly called "Paradise"(where he's perfect & blissful with Yahushua mind you!) before he's resurrected?If that was God's intention,shouldn't Paul have rather "groaned" to be unclothed and free from the burden of his body so that he could be with Yahushua in Paradise as a spirit creature?Instead Paul says something very telling..he says "we may not be found naked. " and " we groan...*not that we would be unclothed*, but that we would be *further clothed*"Also, note how Paul contrasts "mortality" from "being swallowed up by life."If mortality actually entails being alive then the apparent contrast would be entirely lost..I logically detect no need of a resurrection at all if we're made perfect in Paradise with Christ the moment we die.What is so exceptional about regaining a body if Paradise is held in the palm of our hands without one?
As yet another reasoning point,wouldn't peace in "Paradise" with Yahushua be absolutely perfect?According to Heb. 11:40,all the faithful are made perfect TOGETHER,not apart from one another.And when?When they're resurrected,of course.(1 Cor. 15:52)So if the thief was made perfect apart from everyone else,the bible lies.
Significantly enough,Rom. 10:7 says Christ was in the *abyss* for 3 days like Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster(Matt. 12:40)i.e. NOT in paradise.The abyss,I can assure you,is not paradise.Yahushua said "*I* was dead."*I* entails an ego and mind in the Greek language so a *body* with no Yahushua in it isn't a sufficient death to save anyone.His mind,breath,and thoughts had to cease to function or he didn't die for anyone.If he was awake anywhere at all he didn't legitimately die for anyone.(John 11:11,Ps. 115:17,146:4)Bodies don't die without people in them,except by an absurd unwarranted inference,quite frankly initially based upon Platonic type philosophies of men.
In summary,the criminal on the cross(in context) is asking about assurance that he will be saved when Yahushua returns as king,not that *particular* day.Because the hope for all mankind from cover to cover is a resurrection to glory at the LAST DAY,and not glory before it.(2 Tim. 4:8,1 Cor. 15:52,1 Thes. 4:16)Again,either translation for Luke 23:43 is gramatically viable(in terms of comma placement),but the one that harmonizes with the bible's unambiguous declarations from cover to cover is the only one that can be right.
Friday, September 24, 2010
What is death?(a 2 Corinthians 5:8,Philippians 1:23 ,and immortal soul issue)
(The youtube with this info is below but doesn't have ALL the details in this blog.The video has some info that ISN'T in this blog though.So if you'd like to check it out,feel free)
"The intervening state is not consciously experienced at all by the dead!After death,the next thing we know is that we are summoned by Christ."--Warren Prestidge,Life,Death,and destiny,pg. 46
Keeping the above quote in mind,let's examine:
2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
"So instantaneous is the changeover from the old body to the new which Paul here envisages that there will be no interval of conscious "nakedness" between the one and the other.The change-over takes place,as he says in 1 Corinthians 15:52,"in a moment,in the twinkling of an eye"--only there the split second transformation takes place at the parousia."--F.F.Bruce,Paul:Apostle of the Heart Set Free,pg.312
Paul wishes to be home with the Lord in his resurrected glorified untainted body.He is distinguishing that one to come from the tent he resided in at the time,the perishable corruptible one.Similar to 1 Corinthians chapter 15 where our glorified bodies in the image of the Last Adam's are poignantly described in contrast to the corruptible ones inherited from the first Adam.The resurrection at the Last Day is when we'll be absent from the corrupt flesh we now possess.And ONLY then.
"To be "absent from the body and present with the Lord" is the hope that we will meet Christ when he comes to raise us from death.The Bible knows of only one way to escape death--that is by being resurrected at the return of Christ(those who are still alive when he comes will need only be transformed by receiving their new body.)To be "with the Lord" means to be with Jesus through resurrection at Christ's return.So Paul had explained to the Thessalonians when he had elaborated on the divine arrangements by which the saints would be brought into the presence of the returning Lord."In this way(i.e.,by resurrection and transformation) we shall always be with the Lord."(1 Thes. 4:17)"-Anthony Buzzard "Our Fathers who aren't in Heaven" p.225
Paul clarifies HIMSELF in the SAME chapter.Examine:
2 Cor. 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
So...
To quote Alan Richardson:“the notion of a disembodied spirit is repugnant to the Hebrew mind” (Introduction to New Testament Theology, p. 196)
Paul does NOT want to be disembodied!Obviously,Paul wants to be absent from his DYING corruptible body of tainted flesh that he has to fight.(Romans 7:14-25,8:1-17)When does THIS happen?In his death and subsequent resurrection!When Paul awakes from death in the last day,not being made perfect apart from his fellow servants,it will be as if he never slept at all.We have no concept of passing time when we die.It will feel immediate to us when we meet the Lord upon being resurrected.Paul is not to be found naked as a disembodied harp playing spirit creature with no body at all,but rather to be CLOTHED with glory,his corruptible one swallowed in imperishability.BUT not till the return of Christ and a resurrection at the Last Day.
"He knows that the next moment of consciousness for him will be at the resurrection when he will be raised to receive his new body and thus be forever with the Lord Jesus.There may be many long years between the death of Paul and his next waking moment at the return of Christ when he will be raised up.He knows it will seem but a moment between closing his eyes in the sleep of death and the glorious moment of new consciousness."p. 327 "They Never Told me THIS in Church" by Greg Deuble
Paul ,communicating once again in the plainest language possible where his focus REALLY lies, even further says:
2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
"Simply put,Paul is dying,and he knows he is departing FROM THIS LIFE.And as is the case every single time he discusses hope beyond the grave,he looks forward to the "appearing" of Christ in resurrection power.He looks forward to "the future" when he will stand before the Lord,the righteous Judge,"on that day."Facing imminent death,Paul says nothing about going straight up to the Lord in heaven.This should settle once and for all time that after death Paul's hope is in the resurrection when Christ returns to the earth.This also confirms Philippians 1:23 where he states that what he desires is to meet Christ in the next second of consciousness after falling asleep in death.Paul looks for the RETURN OF CHRIST,so he can be with him,"which is very much better."p.338-339 "They Never Told me THIS in Church" by Greg Deuble
Hebrews 11:13 says:
These all died in faith(the OT faithful), not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar..and skipping ahead, verse 40 further says:since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
So the author of Hebrews notes explicitly that *we*(Christians) will be made perfect when *they*(those before Christ) will!(see also 2 Cor. 4:14)Which means no one is perfected and glorified until the resurrection.Easy truth.Keep in mind David nor anyone else had ascended to heaven before Christ had(Acts 2:34,John 3:13) and won't receive their reward till the Last Day..(1 Cor. 15:52,1 Thes. 4:16)Which nullifies simply and immediately the orthodox belief that a righteous "soul" floats off to heaven at death because it supposedly can't die.(1 Tim. 6:16,Ps. 22:29,Ez. 18:4,Gen. 2:7,3:19)
"It is undeniable that the New Testament everywhere strains towards the Parousia and the resurrection of the faithful which is consistently placed at the great day, as the collective resurrection of all the saints. Paul has a precise and simple system of resurrection: “In Christ shall all be made alive…those who belong to Christ at his Coming” (1 Cor. 15:23). In 1 Thessalonians 4 he offers comfort to the believers in connection with those Christians who are said to be sleeping, an extraordinary term to use if he thought they were already fully conscious in bliss with the Lord!"--From "What happens when we die?A Biblical view of death and resurrection" by Anthony Buzzard
Buzzard further states:
"What possible sense can be made of the waking up of already fully conscious spirits in possession of the beatific vision? Paul could have so easily removed all anxiety by pointing out that the dead in Christ were already with him, having at the moment of death overcome the grave and passed to their reward in heaven. It is well known that he says nothing of the sort. Rather, he reinforces the certainty that at the coming of Jesus “the dead in Christ”—those asleep (1 Thess. 5:10)—will be resurrected and united with those who survive until the great day. The antidote to despair was thus the prospect of the resurrection at the return of Christ, not the consciousness of the dead in another location, of which intermediate state Paul says not one word.The all-important moment of the coming of Christ to establish his Kingdom has been replaced by the moment of the individual’s death."--From "What happens when we die?A Biblical view of death and resurrection" by Anthony Buzzard
Also,G.E Ladd notes:
“Paul never conceives of the salvation of the soul apart from the body…neither man’s soul nor spirit is viewed as an immortal part of man which survives death. The Biblical word ‘soul’ is practically synonymous with the personal pronoun. There is no thought of an immortal soul existing after death” (I Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, p. 45)
Paul corroborates(again) what is communicated explicitly throughout the entire NT when he says:
Colossians 3:4:When Christ who is your life appears, THEN you also will appear with him in glory.
Just another implicit statement of WHEN glory is to be gotten.So why say before?We know he's talking about Christ's return,and not before.So why are we divorcing a couple texts from this reality and Paul's own larger contexts and thoughtforms?His intent has been egregiously butchered.You cannot pull verses from their larger contexts such as Christians are so willing to do with Paul in 2 Cor. 5:8 and Phil. 1:23.Upon death,a metaphorical sleep,the very next experience we will encounter,as if we'd never slept at all,will be meeting the Lord when he awakes us.What a beautiful reality Christians tragically erase by misusing a literal couple texts,counting as refuse obvious contexts,and clinging to a Platonic Hellenistic tradition that efficiently eradicates our true Christian hope by transferring it from the resurrection in the LAST DAY to a flying away to heaven and never dying or sleeping at all..How willing are Christians to ignore the entire overwhelming biblical revelation about what death actually means?Apparently,very.
VERY much like 2 Cor. 5:8 and also patently misused is:
Philippians 1:23:I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
In light of Paul's larger contexts,Paul's hope and desire are firmly fixed on Christ's return from heaven and a FUTURE resurrection,as opposed to a glory received anytime before it.We're not left to wonder what Paul longs for and when he'll get it.Examine:
Philippians 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
"What Paul was really aiming for is fortunately clarified later in the same epistle: “if by any means I might attain to the resurrection…we look for the Savior, Jesus Christ, from heaven, who will transform our body of humiliation so that it may be conformed to the body of his glory” (Phil. 3:11, 20). It is beyond question that he here knows of no goal other than the attainment of resurrection at the return of Christ. It would therefore be quite unfair to read his remarks about “departing to be with the Lord” as relating to a quite different aspiration, one not involving resurrection, and thus quite distinct from his desire for the last day. The popular belief implies that a Christian can be fully alive with Christ apart from the resurrection. This will mean that death is not really death in any real sense, but the continuation of life in another realm. At that point resurrection from the dead becomes meaningless! Paul, in fact, speaks in Philippians 1:23 simply of his departure to be with Christ through death and subsequent resurrection. For the dying, their next second of consciousness will find them alive in the resurrection. Departure from this life will mean being with Christ at his Coming."--From "What happens when we die?A Biblical view of death and resurrection" by Anthony Buzzard
As Buzzard noted,the following is ALSO clear "resurrection at the LAST day" kind of imagery and language:
Phil 3:20:But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Briefly,on a side note:
What does citizenship in heaven mean if we're to inherit the earth and not the heavens where the angels reside?(Heb. 2:5)Well,apparently that we're symbolically "seated in Christ in the heavenlies"(Eph. 1:3,2:6), where he "prepares a place for us"(Jn. 14:3,Matt. 20:23) that he will give us when he returns here to this very earth.(Luke 1:32,33)He's in heaven *until* the time for the restoration of the earth comes.(Acts 3:21)Because this earth has yet to become "the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ",(Rev. 11:15)heaven is where our treasures are being stored till it does!(Matt 6:20)Glorified men in the fashion and nature of Yahushua ha'Mashiach "will have the earth for their heritage, and will go on living there for ever."(Ps. 37:29,Rom. 15:8)
Anthony Buzzard says on pp. 240-241 of his book "Our fathers who Aren't in Heaven:The Forgotten Christianity of Jesus,the Jew":
"Paul insists that the dead have perished unless there is to be a resurrection(1 Cor. 15:18).This is patently not true if in reality their souls have survived into another world.The whole matter is so very simple once the Greek dualism of body and separable conscious soul is erased from the mind.For while it is true that man commits his spirit--himself as a vital thinking creature--to God at death,it is equally clear that the man himself falls into unconsciousness.Stephen in Acts 7 fell asleep in death after committing himself to God.(Acts 7:59,60)Stephen in the next moment of consciousness will awake in the resurrection at the coming of Christ to earth.The notion of a surviving conscious spirit deprived of a body belongs in scripture to the world of evil spirits,never to man."
"The hopes of the faithful are constantly directed towards the future kingdom of God for which they are waiting even after Jesus' resurrection(Luke 23:51).It would be hard to imagine a more erratic departure from this simple scheme suddenly to teach that ,after all,souls go to heaven the moment they die."
But if death ISN'T the separation of an unkillable immortal "soul"(acc to orthodoxy's WRONG definition of it only) from the body,what exactly is it?
Yah's definition of death:
Eccl. 3:19, 20:a man has no preeminence over a beast: as the one dies, so dies the other. All are of the dust, and all turn to dust again
Psalm 6:5: For in death there is no remembrance of thee.
Ecclesiastes 9:5: For the living know that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOTHING
Daniel 12:2: And many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth shall awake
Ps. 146:4:His spirit(means breath) departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his THOUGHTS PERISH
Ps. 115:17:The dead cannot sing praises to the LORD, for they have gone into the SILENCE of the grave.
John 11:11:Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up
Yet Christians have the nerve to say we're thinking,breathing,praising,and awake while we're supposed to be dead.It's mindboggling.Because to reiterate,the bible's definition(as opposed to Plato's or Socrates's and orthodoxy's influenced by blatant Hellenism) is a metaphorical sleep,a cessation of thoughts and breath and praise..unconsciousness.Orthodox Christians have proceeded to shamelessly(though probably deceived) propagate Satan's lie in the garden of Eden "You shall surely NOT die!" deceiving many just as they are deceived.
God alone(and now the resurrected Yeshua) are immortal!(1 Tim. 6:16)To dust we shall return and if faithful and true to Yahweh and Yeshua we will be clothed with immortality and glory in a resurrection,and not until then!We shall not be made perfect apart from our brothers and sisters by flying away to heaven in immortal perfection.That would mean we're made perfect apart from them and given eternal life before the "last day," both succintly unbiblical notions,as hopefully demonstrated in some of the texts in this blog.
As for death and resurrection ,Anthony Buzzard says:
"At death, the spirit (ruach) of man and animal alike returns to God who gave it (Eccl. 3:20; 12:7).“God takes away their breath [ruach], they die, and return to their dust” (Ps. 104:29).At death his breath (ruach) goes forth from him, he returns to the earth, and “in that very day his thoughts perish” (Ps. 146:4); for if God “gathers to himself man’s spirit and breath, all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again to the dust” (Job 34:14, 15)."
And further:
"There is no suggestion that resurrection means the reuniting of an already conscious spirit with its body; though certainly the creation of the new immortal beings must involve the infusion of spirit into the new body to produce “spiritual” persons. But the spirit is not the individual subsisting as a conscious personality apart from the body. Only after the resurrection would it be appropriate to refer to the transformed saints as immortal spirits."--From "What happens when we die?A Biblical view of death and resurrection"
So basically,when we die,it is up to God to return our force of life,our breath,our conscious being.We gave that back to him when our thoughts ceased to function,in anticipation,like Job and other faithful ones,of a FUTURE resurrection from genuine unconsciousness.When we die,our breath and life returns to him which means that our thoughts perish,we fall asleep and we become unconscious,utterly silent.Only God can give us our lives back in a resurrection when he resuscitates us through Christ.The resurrection is of an actual person and not of a *body* that had nobody in it because that person was ALREADY alive.If that were the case(person already alive),much of scripture would be so utterly nonsensical,pointless moot lies,deceptive even.As Christians we SHOULD know better!So why are preachers preaching fables?
Here's my method of interpreting:CONTEXT(larger ones are important too!),reason,biblical harmony.Simple enough.If you have 1,000 scriptures that state something rather plainly and unambiguously then have a couple that SEEM to contradict those on the surface,make sure an alternative interpretation isn't viable.Make sure you're staying true to the author and his ideas!Do NOT trust men.They can easily deceive in the slyest ways with their philosophical sophistry.What a cruel Lord we have if Lazarus was taken from his supposed home with God in the benevolent heavens and brought back to this chaotic corrupt earth!Obviously,bodies cannot sleep without egos in them.Obviously,Lazarus lacked thoughts & breath,was silent,was sleeping awaiting a resurrection.That's why Jesus wept.Lazarus was out of commission,not blissfully residing amongst Yahweh and a heavenly host!Then Jesus would have rejoiced and been able to assuredly and blissfully comfort his family without raising him back to the chaos of a fallen earth,no?
Job 14:13:Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
Most people think Sheol is a place of fiery torment!Job begged to go there.Interesting.Job also begged for Yahweh to remember **me**(his entire person and not just a *body*) at the proper time.(John 5:28,29)
Daniel 12:2:Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake
No thought here at all of bodies sleeping,but rather, logically and scripturally speaking, actual persons.*I* in Greek means an actual ego,not a body devoid of one.The ACTUAL mind and person dies,not *just* a body devoid of such.Jesus said **I**died.(Rev. 1:17-18).Yahweh never said your traditions and fables should be embraced at all costs..even when he refutes you in a number of ways.I have noticed many malinformed doctrines springing from a misuse of a few texts and an unwillingness to exegete them in their entire biblical context.Hence,a labyrinth of thick deception,a web of tricky lies,gets built and people with decent intent are blinded,which God DOES allow if tradition is preferred over his word.A fairy tale ear tickling over simply stated facts.Misuse of his inspired writers' intent in specially selected abused texts over reason and biblical harmony.
To quote Justin Martyr from the 2nd century:
"How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"
"if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist , Meristae,Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. "--from CHAPTER LXXX Dialogue with Trypho by Justin Martyr
So Justin understood,even though he was platonically schooled,that the notion that disembodied souls fly off to heaven at death makes moot of the truth and fact of a genuine resurrection.I've no idea why Christians today don't.Christians today think the resurrection isn't of PEOPLE but rather "nothingness."Dust made into a body again and somehow revitalized by a disembodied soul that is already alive.A resurrection to life even though they were always alive!Nonsensical.Our hope is supposed to be in a resurrection precisely because that's when we receive life again,not because we were always alive and suddenly there's dust again to join our vital aliveness.Is our resurrection all about dust and not us anymore?I don't think Jesus intended for anyone to view it that way!
1 Tim. 2:18:They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.
And our faith shouldn't be in our ability to never die like a superperson,an unkillable human,an ego that must be preserved *someplace* for all of eternity,who joins God while our "bodies sleep."(as if they could without us in them!)But in a resurrection of our DEAD PERSON at the last day.If people are always living(the righteous in bliss),the resurrection is a joke.And our faith shouldn't be in it but in something potentially LONG before it.Which scripture says subverts the faith of some.Which advances Satan's lie in the garden of Eden.(Gen. 3:4)Which makes us immortal when God alone is.(1 Tim. 6:16)He can GIFT it to us in a resurrection (Rom. 6:23)but it isn't inherent to our corrupt being.
Gen. 3:19:By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust **you** are and to dust **you** will return.
Notice how God didn't say "to dust shall your body without you in it return while you survive it all."
"The intervening state is not consciously experienced at all by the dead!After death,the next thing we know is that we are summoned by Christ."--Warren Prestidge,Life,Death,and destiny,pg. 46
Keeping the above quote in mind,let's examine:
2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
"So instantaneous is the changeover from the old body to the new which Paul here envisages that there will be no interval of conscious "nakedness" between the one and the other.The change-over takes place,as he says in 1 Corinthians 15:52,"in a moment,in the twinkling of an eye"--only there the split second transformation takes place at the parousia."--F.F.Bruce,Paul:Apostle of the Heart Set Free,pg.312
Paul wishes to be home with the Lord in his resurrected glorified untainted body.He is distinguishing that one to come from the tent he resided in at the time,the perishable corruptible one.Similar to 1 Corinthians chapter 15 where our glorified bodies in the image of the Last Adam's are poignantly described in contrast to the corruptible ones inherited from the first Adam.The resurrection at the Last Day is when we'll be absent from the corrupt flesh we now possess.And ONLY then.
"To be "absent from the body and present with the Lord" is the hope that we will meet Christ when he comes to raise us from death.The Bible knows of only one way to escape death--that is by being resurrected at the return of Christ(those who are still alive when he comes will need only be transformed by receiving their new body.)To be "with the Lord" means to be with Jesus through resurrection at Christ's return.So Paul had explained to the Thessalonians when he had elaborated on the divine arrangements by which the saints would be brought into the presence of the returning Lord."In this way(i.e.,by resurrection and transformation) we shall always be with the Lord."(1 Thes. 4:17)"-Anthony Buzzard "Our Fathers who aren't in Heaven" p.225
Paul clarifies HIMSELF in the SAME chapter.Examine:
2 Cor. 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
So...
To quote Alan Richardson:“the notion of a disembodied spirit is repugnant to the Hebrew mind” (Introduction to New Testament Theology, p. 196)
Paul does NOT want to be disembodied!Obviously,Paul wants to be absent from his DYING corruptible body of tainted flesh that he has to fight.(Romans 7:14-25,8:1-17)When does THIS happen?In his death and subsequent resurrection!When Paul awakes from death in the last day,not being made perfect apart from his fellow servants,it will be as if he never slept at all.We have no concept of passing time when we die.It will feel immediate to us when we meet the Lord upon being resurrected.Paul is not to be found naked as a disembodied harp playing spirit creature with no body at all,but rather to be CLOTHED with glory,his corruptible one swallowed in imperishability.BUT not till the return of Christ and a resurrection at the Last Day.
"He knows that the next moment of consciousness for him will be at the resurrection when he will be raised to receive his new body and thus be forever with the Lord Jesus.There may be many long years between the death of Paul and his next waking moment at the return of Christ when he will be raised up.He knows it will seem but a moment between closing his eyes in the sleep of death and the glorious moment of new consciousness."p. 327 "They Never Told me THIS in Church" by Greg Deuble
Paul ,communicating once again in the plainest language possible where his focus REALLY lies, even further says:
2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
"Simply put,Paul is dying,and he knows he is departing FROM THIS LIFE.And as is the case every single time he discusses hope beyond the grave,he looks forward to the "appearing" of Christ in resurrection power.He looks forward to "the future" when he will stand before the Lord,the righteous Judge,"on that day."Facing imminent death,Paul says nothing about going straight up to the Lord in heaven.This should settle once and for all time that after death Paul's hope is in the resurrection when Christ returns to the earth.This also confirms Philippians 1:23 where he states that what he desires is to meet Christ in the next second of consciousness after falling asleep in death.Paul looks for the RETURN OF CHRIST,so he can be with him,"which is very much better."p.338-339 "They Never Told me THIS in Church" by Greg Deuble
Hebrews 11:13 says:
These all died in faith(the OT faithful), not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar..and skipping ahead, verse 40 further says:since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
So the author of Hebrews notes explicitly that *we*(Christians) will be made perfect when *they*(those before Christ) will!(see also 2 Cor. 4:14)Which means no one is perfected and glorified until the resurrection.Easy truth.Keep in mind David nor anyone else had ascended to heaven before Christ had(Acts 2:34,John 3:13) and won't receive their reward till the Last Day..(1 Cor. 15:52,1 Thes. 4:16)Which nullifies simply and immediately the orthodox belief that a righteous "soul" floats off to heaven at death because it supposedly can't die.(1 Tim. 6:16,Ps. 22:29,Ez. 18:4,Gen. 2:7,3:19)
"It is undeniable that the New Testament everywhere strains towards the Parousia and the resurrection of the faithful which is consistently placed at the great day, as the collective resurrection of all the saints. Paul has a precise and simple system of resurrection: “In Christ shall all be made alive…those who belong to Christ at his Coming” (1 Cor. 15:23). In 1 Thessalonians 4 he offers comfort to the believers in connection with those Christians who are said to be sleeping, an extraordinary term to use if he thought they were already fully conscious in bliss with the Lord!"--From "What happens when we die?A Biblical view of death and resurrection" by Anthony Buzzard
Buzzard further states:
"What possible sense can be made of the waking up of already fully conscious spirits in possession of the beatific vision? Paul could have so easily removed all anxiety by pointing out that the dead in Christ were already with him, having at the moment of death overcome the grave and passed to their reward in heaven. It is well known that he says nothing of the sort. Rather, he reinforces the certainty that at the coming of Jesus “the dead in Christ”—those asleep (1 Thess. 5:10)—will be resurrected and united with those who survive until the great day. The antidote to despair was thus the prospect of the resurrection at the return of Christ, not the consciousness of the dead in another location, of which intermediate state Paul says not one word.The all-important moment of the coming of Christ to establish his Kingdom has been replaced by the moment of the individual’s death."--From "What happens when we die?A Biblical view of death and resurrection" by Anthony Buzzard
Also,G.E Ladd notes:
“Paul never conceives of the salvation of the soul apart from the body…neither man’s soul nor spirit is viewed as an immortal part of man which survives death. The Biblical word ‘soul’ is practically synonymous with the personal pronoun. There is no thought of an immortal soul existing after death” (I Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, p. 45)
Paul corroborates(again) what is communicated explicitly throughout the entire NT when he says:
Colossians 3:4:When Christ who is your life appears, THEN you also will appear with him in glory.
Just another implicit statement of WHEN glory is to be gotten.So why say before?We know he's talking about Christ's return,and not before.So why are we divorcing a couple texts from this reality and Paul's own larger contexts and thoughtforms?His intent has been egregiously butchered.You cannot pull verses from their larger contexts such as Christians are so willing to do with Paul in 2 Cor. 5:8 and Phil. 1:23.Upon death,a metaphorical sleep,the very next experience we will encounter,as if we'd never slept at all,will be meeting the Lord when he awakes us.What a beautiful reality Christians tragically erase by misusing a literal couple texts,counting as refuse obvious contexts,and clinging to a Platonic Hellenistic tradition that efficiently eradicates our true Christian hope by transferring it from the resurrection in the LAST DAY to a flying away to heaven and never dying or sleeping at all..How willing are Christians to ignore the entire overwhelming biblical revelation about what death actually means?Apparently,very.
VERY much like 2 Cor. 5:8 and also patently misused is:
Philippians 1:23:I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
In light of Paul's larger contexts,Paul's hope and desire are firmly fixed on Christ's return from heaven and a FUTURE resurrection,as opposed to a glory received anytime before it.We're not left to wonder what Paul longs for and when he'll get it.Examine:
Philippians 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
"What Paul was really aiming for is fortunately clarified later in the same epistle: “if by any means I might attain to the resurrection…we look for the Savior, Jesus Christ, from heaven, who will transform our body of humiliation so that it may be conformed to the body of his glory” (Phil. 3:11, 20). It is beyond question that he here knows of no goal other than the attainment of resurrection at the return of Christ. It would therefore be quite unfair to read his remarks about “departing to be with the Lord” as relating to a quite different aspiration, one not involving resurrection, and thus quite distinct from his desire for the last day. The popular belief implies that a Christian can be fully alive with Christ apart from the resurrection. This will mean that death is not really death in any real sense, but the continuation of life in another realm. At that point resurrection from the dead becomes meaningless! Paul, in fact, speaks in Philippians 1:23 simply of his departure to be with Christ through death and subsequent resurrection. For the dying, their next second of consciousness will find them alive in the resurrection. Departure from this life will mean being with Christ at his Coming."--From "What happens when we die?A Biblical view of death and resurrection" by Anthony Buzzard
As Buzzard noted,the following is ALSO clear "resurrection at the LAST day" kind of imagery and language:
Phil 3:20:But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Briefly,on a side note:
What does citizenship in heaven mean if we're to inherit the earth and not the heavens where the angels reside?(Heb. 2:5)Well,apparently that we're symbolically "seated in Christ in the heavenlies"(Eph. 1:3,2:6), where he "prepares a place for us"(Jn. 14:3,Matt. 20:23) that he will give us when he returns here to this very earth.(Luke 1:32,33)He's in heaven *until* the time for the restoration of the earth comes.(Acts 3:21)Because this earth has yet to become "the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ",(Rev. 11:15)heaven is where our treasures are being stored till it does!(Matt 6:20)Glorified men in the fashion and nature of Yahushua ha'Mashiach "will have the earth for their heritage, and will go on living there for ever."(Ps. 37:29,Rom. 15:8)
Anthony Buzzard says on pp. 240-241 of his book "Our fathers who Aren't in Heaven:The Forgotten Christianity of Jesus,the Jew":
"Paul insists that the dead have perished unless there is to be a resurrection(1 Cor. 15:18).This is patently not true if in reality their souls have survived into another world.The whole matter is so very simple once the Greek dualism of body and separable conscious soul is erased from the mind.For while it is true that man commits his spirit--himself as a vital thinking creature--to God at death,it is equally clear that the man himself falls into unconsciousness.Stephen in Acts 7 fell asleep in death after committing himself to God.(Acts 7:59,60)Stephen in the next moment of consciousness will awake in the resurrection at the coming of Christ to earth.The notion of a surviving conscious spirit deprived of a body belongs in scripture to the world of evil spirits,never to man."
"The hopes of the faithful are constantly directed towards the future kingdom of God for which they are waiting even after Jesus' resurrection(Luke 23:51).It would be hard to imagine a more erratic departure from this simple scheme suddenly to teach that ,after all,souls go to heaven the moment they die."
But if death ISN'T the separation of an unkillable immortal "soul"(acc to orthodoxy's WRONG definition of it only) from the body,what exactly is it?
Yah's definition of death:
Eccl. 3:19, 20:a man has no preeminence over a beast: as the one dies, so dies the other. All are of the dust, and all turn to dust again
Psalm 6:5: For in death there is no remembrance of thee.
Ecclesiastes 9:5: For the living know that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOTHING
Daniel 12:2: And many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth shall awake
Ps. 146:4:His spirit(means breath) departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his THOUGHTS PERISH
Ps. 115:17:The dead cannot sing praises to the LORD, for they have gone into the SILENCE of the grave.
John 11:11:Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up
Yet Christians have the nerve to say we're thinking,breathing,praising,and awake while we're supposed to be dead.It's mindboggling.Because to reiterate,the bible's definition(as opposed to Plato's or Socrates's and orthodoxy's influenced by blatant Hellenism) is a metaphorical sleep,a cessation of thoughts and breath and praise..unconsciousness.Orthodox Christians have proceeded to shamelessly(though probably deceived) propagate Satan's lie in the garden of Eden "You shall surely NOT die!" deceiving many just as they are deceived.
God alone(and now the resurrected Yeshua) are immortal!(1 Tim. 6:16)To dust we shall return and if faithful and true to Yahweh and Yeshua we will be clothed with immortality and glory in a resurrection,and not until then!We shall not be made perfect apart from our brothers and sisters by flying away to heaven in immortal perfection.That would mean we're made perfect apart from them and given eternal life before the "last day," both succintly unbiblical notions,as hopefully demonstrated in some of the texts in this blog.
As for death and resurrection ,Anthony Buzzard says:
"At death, the spirit (ruach) of man and animal alike returns to God who gave it (Eccl. 3:20; 12:7).“God takes away their breath [ruach], they die, and return to their dust” (Ps. 104:29).At death his breath (ruach) goes forth from him, he returns to the earth, and “in that very day his thoughts perish” (Ps. 146:4); for if God “gathers to himself man’s spirit and breath, all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again to the dust” (Job 34:14, 15)."
And further:
"There is no suggestion that resurrection means the reuniting of an already conscious spirit with its body; though certainly the creation of the new immortal beings must involve the infusion of spirit into the new body to produce “spiritual” persons. But the spirit is not the individual subsisting as a conscious personality apart from the body. Only after the resurrection would it be appropriate to refer to the transformed saints as immortal spirits."--From "What happens when we die?A Biblical view of death and resurrection"
So basically,when we die,it is up to God to return our force of life,our breath,our conscious being.We gave that back to him when our thoughts ceased to function,in anticipation,like Job and other faithful ones,of a FUTURE resurrection from genuine unconsciousness.When we die,our breath and life returns to him which means that our thoughts perish,we fall asleep and we become unconscious,utterly silent.Only God can give us our lives back in a resurrection when he resuscitates us through Christ.The resurrection is of an actual person and not of a *body* that had nobody in it because that person was ALREADY alive.If that were the case(person already alive),much of scripture would be so utterly nonsensical,pointless moot lies,deceptive even.As Christians we SHOULD know better!So why are preachers preaching fables?
Here's my method of interpreting:CONTEXT(larger ones are important too!),reason,biblical harmony.Simple enough.If you have 1,000 scriptures that state something rather plainly and unambiguously then have a couple that SEEM to contradict those on the surface,make sure an alternative interpretation isn't viable.Make sure you're staying true to the author and his ideas!Do NOT trust men.They can easily deceive in the slyest ways with their philosophical sophistry.What a cruel Lord we have if Lazarus was taken from his supposed home with God in the benevolent heavens and brought back to this chaotic corrupt earth!Obviously,bodies cannot sleep without egos in them.Obviously,Lazarus lacked thoughts & breath,was silent,was sleeping awaiting a resurrection.That's why Jesus wept.Lazarus was out of commission,not blissfully residing amongst Yahweh and a heavenly host!Then Jesus would have rejoiced and been able to assuredly and blissfully comfort his family without raising him back to the chaos of a fallen earth,no?
Job 14:13:Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
Most people think Sheol is a place of fiery torment!Job begged to go there.Interesting.Job also begged for Yahweh to remember **me**(his entire person and not just a *body*) at the proper time.(John 5:28,29)
Daniel 12:2:Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake
No thought here at all of bodies sleeping,but rather, logically and scripturally speaking, actual persons.*I* in Greek means an actual ego,not a body devoid of one.The ACTUAL mind and person dies,not *just* a body devoid of such.Jesus said **I**died.(Rev. 1:17-18).Yahweh never said your traditions and fables should be embraced at all costs..even when he refutes you in a number of ways.I have noticed many malinformed doctrines springing from a misuse of a few texts and an unwillingness to exegete them in their entire biblical context.Hence,a labyrinth of thick deception,a web of tricky lies,gets built and people with decent intent are blinded,which God DOES allow if tradition is preferred over his word.A fairy tale ear tickling over simply stated facts.Misuse of his inspired writers' intent in specially selected abused texts over reason and biblical harmony.
To quote Justin Martyr from the 2nd century:
"How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"
"if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist , Meristae,Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. "--from CHAPTER LXXX Dialogue with Trypho by Justin Martyr
So Justin understood,even though he was platonically schooled,that the notion that disembodied souls fly off to heaven at death makes moot of the truth and fact of a genuine resurrection.I've no idea why Christians today don't.Christians today think the resurrection isn't of PEOPLE but rather "nothingness."Dust made into a body again and somehow revitalized by a disembodied soul that is already alive.A resurrection to life even though they were always alive!Nonsensical.Our hope is supposed to be in a resurrection precisely because that's when we receive life again,not because we were always alive and suddenly there's dust again to join our vital aliveness.Is our resurrection all about dust and not us anymore?I don't think Jesus intended for anyone to view it that way!
1 Tim. 2:18:They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.
And our faith shouldn't be in our ability to never die like a superperson,an unkillable human,an ego that must be preserved *someplace* for all of eternity,who joins God while our "bodies sleep."(as if they could without us in them!)But in a resurrection of our DEAD PERSON at the last day.If people are always living(the righteous in bliss),the resurrection is a joke.And our faith shouldn't be in it but in something potentially LONG before it.Which scripture says subverts the faith of some.Which advances Satan's lie in the garden of Eden.(Gen. 3:4)Which makes us immortal when God alone is.(1 Tim. 6:16)He can GIFT it to us in a resurrection (Rom. 6:23)but it isn't inherent to our corrupt being.
Gen. 3:19:By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust **you** are and to dust **you** will return.
Notice how God didn't say "to dust shall your body without you in it return while you survive it all."
Wednesday, April 1, 2009
2 Corinthians 5:8 and the kingdom of God
At first,I was just going to write a very brief blog to address 2 Corinthians 5:8.But somehow it turned into a kingdom blog.I called it Kangdom,not because I can't spell but because I live in Kentucky.
Orthodox Christians say:
2 Corintians 5:8:we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
So their reasoning is that death is nothing but the separation of the soul from the body(just like Satan's lie..no one ever REALLY dies!) so the resurrection MUST BE just a rejoining of the two.
Ok..this answer is from a yahoo message board from a JW I 'm assuming ..anyway,here it is(MUCH better than anything I could've said):
At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.
When would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” He added, , “ the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.
This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.
Gotta love some good ol' logic!After all,we know the dead are described as sleeping and having no thoughts at all,which would be impossible were they alive somewhere.It is of utmost importance to recognize corresponding texts to exegete those that seem to state something so clearly..they MUST be used with others,the succint majority!The bible also points out that God made this earth "even to be inhabited" and flesh(which doesn't inhabit the heavens) will be praising his holy name forever on a cleansed perfected earth.
Even when the dead are dead,he sees them AS THOUGH they are alive.He has a book of remembrance,which isn't reconcilable with the immortal soul doctrine.(Just one of MANY things that aren't!)Also,if the resurrection is just a "rejoining" of soul and body,why is it even happening..if the souls are in their destinies why is there a need for this and why is there a future judgment if one has already occurred?
Romans 8:18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
And what expectation can this creation anticipate,as Heavenly Jerusalem descends from the heavens over the earth for the benefit of mankind?Well,obviously we can expect untold benefits and blessings that Adam and Eve could've had for an eternity had they never sinned.
Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
I believe those nations will be on earth,enjoying the "trees of life,with leaves that heal" and "rivers of waters of life".
Genesis 2:9:And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden
Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.
So the bride,the anointed,urge all those wishing to live forever in a paradise on earth to take life's water free!How awesome is that?!
Reminds us of this:
John 4:13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”
God did not put it into the hearts of men to desire peace on earth and love for nature and animals etc..only to have us think our only hope is one in the heavens!If you feel that peace on earth with no more sickness and death,with blessings unimaginable sounds like a good thing,then that is because your creator gave you those ideals and hopes.Ones that he can fulfill.
Revelation 5:10: and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings on the earth
Psalms 45:16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons,Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.
So what this says to me,those who were Jesus's forefathers (Abraham ,David etc) will be appointed in powerful positions right here!
All one gargantuan and benevolent theocratic organization,as God is a God of order and peace and not of disarray.
And when will these things occur?Well,it has to be soon.In the bible,Jehovah always destroyed wicked cities and people at the peak of their wickedness and folks,things couldn't get much worse.If ya don't think so,look at how television or schoolchildren have changed JUST SINCE the 50's.BIG difference!Huge!
And I am quite sure if you're on the internet much at all,you have heard about a lil somethin called the New World Order.Without getting into it too much,I would like to point out that it correlates with the tower of Babel.Jesus compared our days to those days so I think we are living in VERY significant times!
In the book of Daniel,chapters 2 and 7,we are told through visions that Daniel interpreted by means of God's holy spirit,the succession of world powers that would ensue upon this earth.They were Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medo-Persia,Greece,Rome and then lastly,the Anglo-American!And that is the last one!The book of revelation lets us know that this last one will remain "a short time",so we're nearly there folks!What will happen?Well,I won't get into the destruction of false religion and the cries of "Peace and Security!" etc,but there will certainly be tribulation like we have NEVER known,and there will never be anything like it ever again..Sounds abysmal and frightening,BUT afterward,BLESSINGS!
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
And I think we all know what kind of kingdom that will be and what kind of king it will have!So if we endure to the end in the love and worship of Jehovah and the veneration and recognition of our Lord and savior,Jesus Christ,our hearts should swell with the hope ahead!
Romans 15:4: For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope
The bible lets us know to seek knowledge,righteousness,meekness,love,fine works,etc..and we will inherit many blessings.Let us not give up and may we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God Almighty.All those who do will be exalted and all those who don't will suffer humiliation and ultimately,destruction.(Micah 6:8,Mark 13:13,Proverbs 18:12,John 3:16)
Jehovah is LOVE.Jehovah is salvation.(that's what Jesus' very name means,whom he used as agent in the salvation of his loved children).Jehovah means" he causes to become" and that he has,and that he will continue to do!
Neva forget that we have as high priest someone who has been tempted in every way just like we have been,who has suffered huge atrocities etc.None of us can know every minute detail ..and the bible even talks about "new scrolls" that will be opened..so our eyes and hearts and minds should be focused on the kingdom to come and not any status or wealth or distracting focus that this world has to offer,for it is passing away.
1 John 2:15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.
God's will is for us to follow in Christ's footsteps by living for the kingdom and for the exaltation of Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.
Orthodox Christians say:
2 Corintians 5:8:we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
So their reasoning is that death is nothing but the separation of the soul from the body(just like Satan's lie..no one ever REALLY dies!) so the resurrection MUST BE just a rejoining of the two.
Ok..this answer is from a yahoo message board from a JW I 'm assuming ..anyway,here it is(MUCH better than anything I could've said):
At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.
When would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” He added, , “ the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.
This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.
Gotta love some good ol' logic!After all,we know the dead are described as sleeping and having no thoughts at all,which would be impossible were they alive somewhere.It is of utmost importance to recognize corresponding texts to exegete those that seem to state something so clearly..they MUST be used with others,the succint majority!The bible also points out that God made this earth "even to be inhabited" and flesh(which doesn't inhabit the heavens) will be praising his holy name forever on a cleansed perfected earth.
Even when the dead are dead,he sees them AS THOUGH they are alive.He has a book of remembrance,which isn't reconcilable with the immortal soul doctrine.(Just one of MANY things that aren't!)Also,if the resurrection is just a "rejoining" of soul and body,why is it even happening..if the souls are in their destinies why is there a need for this and why is there a future judgment if one has already occurred?
Romans 8:18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
And what expectation can this creation anticipate,as Heavenly Jerusalem descends from the heavens over the earth for the benefit of mankind?Well,obviously we can expect untold benefits and blessings that Adam and Eve could've had for an eternity had they never sinned.
Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
I believe those nations will be on earth,enjoying the "trees of life,with leaves that heal" and "rivers of waters of life".
Genesis 2:9:And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden
Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.
So the bride,the anointed,urge all those wishing to live forever in a paradise on earth to take life's water free!How awesome is that?!
Reminds us of this:
John 4:13 In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”
God did not put it into the hearts of men to desire peace on earth and love for nature and animals etc..only to have us think our only hope is one in the heavens!If you feel that peace on earth with no more sickness and death,with blessings unimaginable sounds like a good thing,then that is because your creator gave you those ideals and hopes.Ones that he can fulfill.
Revelation 5:10: and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings on the earth
Psalms 45:16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons,Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.
So what this says to me,those who were Jesus's forefathers (Abraham ,David etc) will be appointed in powerful positions right here!
All one gargantuan and benevolent theocratic organization,as God is a God of order and peace and not of disarray.
And when will these things occur?Well,it has to be soon.In the bible,Jehovah always destroyed wicked cities and people at the peak of their wickedness and folks,things couldn't get much worse.If ya don't think so,look at how television or schoolchildren have changed JUST SINCE the 50's.BIG difference!Huge!
And I am quite sure if you're on the internet much at all,you have heard about a lil somethin called the New World Order.Without getting into it too much,I would like to point out that it correlates with the tower of Babel.Jesus compared our days to those days so I think we are living in VERY significant times!
In the book of Daniel,chapters 2 and 7,we are told through visions that Daniel interpreted by means of God's holy spirit,the succession of world powers that would ensue upon this earth.They were Egypt,Assyria,Babylon,Medo-Persia,Greece,Rome and then lastly,the Anglo-American!And that is the last one!The book of revelation lets us know that this last one will remain "a short time",so we're nearly there folks!What will happen?Well,I won't get into the destruction of false religion and the cries of "Peace and Security!" etc,but there will certainly be tribulation like we have NEVER known,and there will never be anything like it ever again..Sounds abysmal and frightening,BUT afterward,BLESSINGS!
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
And I think we all know what kind of kingdom that will be and what kind of king it will have!So if we endure to the end in the love and worship of Jehovah and the veneration and recognition of our Lord and savior,Jesus Christ,our hearts should swell with the hope ahead!
Romans 15:4: For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope
The bible lets us know to seek knowledge,righteousness,meekness,love,fine works,etc..and we will inherit many blessings.Let us not give up and may we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God Almighty.All those who do will be exalted and all those who don't will suffer humiliation and ultimately,destruction.(Micah 6:8,Mark 13:13,Proverbs 18:12,John 3:16)
Jehovah is LOVE.Jehovah is salvation.(that's what Jesus' very name means,whom he used as agent in the salvation of his loved children).Jehovah means" he causes to become" and that he has,and that he will continue to do!
Neva forget that we have as high priest someone who has been tempted in every way just like we have been,who has suffered huge atrocities etc.None of us can know every minute detail ..and the bible even talks about "new scrolls" that will be opened..so our eyes and hearts and minds should be focused on the kingdom to come and not any status or wealth or distracting focus that this world has to offer,for it is passing away.
1 John 2:15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.
God's will is for us to follow in Christ's footsteps by living for the kingdom and for the exaltation of Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.
Monday, January 19, 2009
Plato or God?
http://www.british-israel.ca/immortalsoul.htm
Check out the site for a simple and thorough explanation of how man has adopted the philosophy of other men instead of the truth in the word into their doctrines.There are many scriptures and facts given upon which to ponder and be honest with yourself.I'll also post URL's of a couple of youtubes where Plato's definition of death differs from God's when examined under the microscope of God's perfect word.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3tEyIWgb-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwn9FcbRl7s
I urge everyone to go to the website and be honest with yourself!I know it is hard to accept that long held deeply steeped traditions conflict with truth and reality but God is not to be contradicted ..We MUST worship him in truth!Otherwise,we are on the "Father of the lie's" side.Who wants to be there?God is our potter our creator our master.Let him mold your thoughts and ideas.Let HIM teach you and help you to unadopt philosophical pagan conformity and imprisonment.The truth will set you free.At least please CONSIDER the scriptures given on the website above and all the ones on my "OH HELL!!" blog.:)Because scriptures should be the authority.For instance if the hellfire doctrine seems out of line with God's absolute mercy,justice and love,then it probably is!Sheol and hades and the pit all mean grave.Gehenna was a location Jesus was using to symbolize destruction and ostracizing from God.It was a literal location where everything was burned up and where lepers were sent ..that is what the people at that time understood when Jesus was talking about "hell" because these are all the words translated as "hell".(gehenna..google it.)Please watch the following youtube for sensible truth made by someone I do not know..Thanks.:)
Check out the site for a simple and thorough explanation of how man has adopted the philosophy of other men instead of the truth in the word into their doctrines.There are many scriptures and facts given upon which to ponder and be honest with yourself.I'll also post URL's of a couple of youtubes where Plato's definition of death differs from God's when examined under the microscope of God's perfect word.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3tEyIWgb-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwn9FcbRl7s
I urge everyone to go to the website and be honest with yourself!I know it is hard to accept that long held deeply steeped traditions conflict with truth and reality but God is not to be contradicted ..We MUST worship him in truth!Otherwise,we are on the "Father of the lie's" side.Who wants to be there?God is our potter our creator our master.Let him mold your thoughts and ideas.Let HIM teach you and help you to unadopt philosophical pagan conformity and imprisonment.The truth will set you free.At least please CONSIDER the scriptures given on the website above and all the ones on my "OH HELL!!" blog.:)Because scriptures should be the authority.For instance if the hellfire doctrine seems out of line with God's absolute mercy,justice and love,then it probably is!Sheol and hades and the pit all mean grave.Gehenna was a location Jesus was using to symbolize destruction and ostracizing from God.It was a literal location where everything was burned up and where lepers were sent ..that is what the people at that time understood when Jesus was talking about "hell" because these are all the words translated as "hell".(gehenna..google it.)Please watch the following youtube for sensible truth made by someone I do not know..Thanks.:)
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