Showing posts with label holy spirit. Show all posts
Showing posts with label holy spirit. Show all posts
Wednesday, July 10, 2013
Sunday, June 13, 2010
Did the apostles think the Holy Spirit was a person?
Enjoy the lesson!There will be a quiz afterward.(not really)
This is Pastor John Clark, Sr. ..found this on youtube channel GoingtoJesus
This is Pastor John Clark, Sr. ..found this on youtube channel GoingtoJesus
Wednesday, April 21, 2010
Personification of the holy Spirit(a trinity issue)
Examine:
John 20:21 Jesus said to them: “May you have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending you.” 22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”
Did Jesus here blow out of his mouth the 3rd person of the same God that he is on his disciples OR did he breathe HOLY breath(which conveniently is the definition of spirit!) and power and influence that God dispenses THROUGH the agency of the Messiah so that the disciples could have the power of God to forgive sins like Jesus did?God forgives sin through Yeshua.He can likewise forgive sin through the disciples in the very same fashion.Not by their being possessed by a person in a fictional "godhead,"but rather by means of God working through them by means of his spirit.Even OUR spirits are magnificent,indescribable,and unfathomable.How much more GOD'S!Ours animates us and cause us to breathe,move and exist.God's is HOLY and inimitable,it being His after all.If ours is so overwhelming,how much more our Creator's who the very heavens cannot even contain!!
How can Jesus have the spirit so fully and magnificently if he isn't the same God his father is?
John 3:34:For the one whom God sent forth speaks the sayings of God, for he does not give the spirit by measure.
What these texts tell me is that Yaheweh,Yeshua's father,is the SOURCE of the holy spirit..He GIVES it to Yeshua without measure and Yeshua,as mediator and due to authority afforded him from his superior,dispenses measures of it to his followers so that they TOO can accomplish what he or his father would,EVEN FORGIVE SIN!Significantly,the spirit was given by Jesus BREATHING upon them,.Think about it.Did he breathe a PERSON?The text,verse 2 of John 20, could have just as easily and appropriately been translated "And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive sacred breath."I'm not suggesting the spirit doesn't imply much more than God's breath. Even our spirits imply more than that because they animate us and keep us alive.
We would not be able to breathe or live if God didn't afford us the opportunity with a dispension of his holy spirit.Remember he blew spirit,or breath, into Adam's nostrils.(Gen 2:7)He didn't breathe a person into Adam's nostrils,nor did a person live in Adam's nostrils.Keeping in mind the REAL definition of our spirits and also God's spirit,and Adam having spirit in his nostrils the holy spirit being given it's real definition makes much more sense!
Personification:
The holy spirit,being of the Almighty God,owned and operated by him,would be appropriately personifiable.Don't assume it is a person because it is personified sporadically..otherwise you are assuming something the whole of the bible fails to support and also recognizing wisdom and trees etc. must be people by these easily disprovable standards.It's clearly a bias to say that it's personified and therefore a person.I'm not presupposing it's a person like trinitarians are because of an entrenched tradition but rather simply recognizing the definition of spirit,that we all have a personifiable one,and that translations with arbitrary use of "he" and "who" as opposed to "it" and "which" and also arbitrary capitalization are bias.It always amazes me when trinitarians say the NWT is clearly a horrific translation when it has no more error than other translations that are also bias.Time to extract the rafter.
"The occasional personifications which he(Paul) employs do not go beyond the personifications found in the OT and in Judaism."-John L. Mckenzie Bible dictionary p. 883
"When the spirit is the mode of God's presence in the hearts and minds of His people ,then there is a good case for personal language."-C.F.D Moule "The Holy Spirit" p.50
To quote Christian author Ray Franz from the essay "What is the Holy Spirit:"
"It is true that the Holy Spirit is spoken of as speaking,teaching,guiding,being grieved etc.However..anyone who has read the bible as whole would realize that it is EXTREMELY common to personify objects and forces..."
Then Ray goes on to list many examples where things like the desert,earth,mountain,rivers,the gates of Jerusalem etc. do things like rejoicing,singing,clapping hands,lamenting,mourning etc..He also points out that Wisdom is spoken of as if it were a woman and FAR more is said about personified wisdom than is said about personified Holy Spirit.She(Wisdom) raises her voice,exhorts,reproves,rejects,ignores,despises,mocks,guards..can be loved and embraced.She has a mouth and lips,attains knowledge,loves and hates,slaughters animals,offers bread and wine.The list goes on!As Ray says,trinitarians won't fail to offer such a list as supposed proof that the Holy Spirit OF God is actually a person.I would point out that if I described MY spirit as speaking,crying,grieving etc NO ONE would assume "her spirit is an extra person in her being apparently!"The list of Wisdom's personifications far exceeds that of the spirit of God.Personification was just as tenable a reality in the NT than the OT.(Matt 11:19,Luke 7:35 etc.)One text trinitarians like to use to say it's a person is 1 John 5:6 & 7,inexplicably,where the spirit testifies,completely ignoring or being blinded to the fact that in the SAME texts water and blood testify.Are they two other people too?At Romans 10:6 righteousness speaks!To quote Ray:
"How different is it to speak of the Holy Spirit as guiding and to speak of wisdom as reproving,guarding,and keeping?How different is it to speak of the holy spirit as being grieved and to speak of love as being patient,enduring,not quick to take offense or irritable?"-from essay "What is the Holy Spirit" by Ray Franz
It is a weak argument to say that something that speaks and grieves etc. has to be a person given the definition of spirit,that we all have one that isn't a person within us and that God has one too..He is composed of it,is omniscient by means of it,indwells us by sharing it with an appointed mediator who he loves.
"Because it carries the personal presence of Christ into the life of every believer ,the use of PERSONIFICATION is highly appropriate."-Graeser,Lynn,Schoenheit "One God One Lord p.596
Even our spirits,because of how dynamic they are,considering they animate us with breath along with life,are appropriately and highly personifiable!How much more God's Holy one!
It IS "of God"(HIS and therefore sometimes rightfully personified in relation TO him)..Here are a few more examples of non-people being personified(it's not uncommon):
Luke 7:35,Romans 7:8,Romans 5:14,21,1 John 5:6-8,1 Corinthians 12:15,16,Ps. 96:11,12,Is. 55:12
**Luke 7:35-Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."
**Romans 7:8-11:sin dies,revives,deceives and slews.
**Rom 5:14,21-death reigned from Adam to Moses21just as sin ruled by bringing death, so also grace might rule by bringing justification that results in eternal life through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord.
**1 John 5:6-8- water and blood bear witness too
**I Cor. 12:15,16-If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body.... And if the ear shall say, because I am not of the body .
**Psa. 96:11,12-Let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad. …let the field be joyful . . then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
**Isa. 55:12-the mountains and hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees shall clap their hands
There are many more examples than that,just making a point.
When angels would speak Yah's messages as his messengers,they didn't enter or possess people.They appeared before them.They can be SEEN AS ANGELS..When has the holy spirit ever been seen as a person or given a personal name?By trinitarian standards,wisdom,knowledge,trees,etc. could all be people because they are sometimes ,even though inanimate non-persons given personification in a poetic way.Trinitarian standards are easily refuted at many turns.For instance,we as Christians can have the "fullness of God" by means of the holy spirit as well,just as Christ did.The difference is we aren't said to have it "without measure"..If fullness of God,which I maintain is accomplished by a generous and lovely dispension of the holy spirit unto believers,means one IS the True God,then we really have a problem.Yet trinitarians won't hesitate to say it makes Jesus the same Only True God that he said only his father was!
Now to cover a text those who believe God's spirit is God's third person love to use to prove that it is:
Acts 13:2:While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
Put quite simply God IS speaking through others by means of His spirit,representing his divine presence wherever he measures it and pours it out,in essence,his agency of accomplishment.Similar to how I could use my arm to lift something..my arm did it,but ultimately it was ME using my arm.OBVIOUSLY the teachers and prophets are speaking in this text who HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.It is personified in relation to who is talking with it.God pours it out on his servants.Does God split up and pour out his third person all over the map and portions of this person appear as doves and such?..OR does God influence the righteous by means of his breath..his power,the REAL definition of his spirit?Can you show me in Acts 13:2 where the holy spirit is seen..are you sure it isn''t God using his power and force to talk through others and the means by which he does is speaking through others by MEANS of his spirit,his power,his influence,his "breath"..therefore "He said"
*While some texts refer to the spirit as "witnessing","speaking" or "saying" things ,other texts make it clear that it spoke THROUGH other persons having no personal voice of it's own(heb 3:7,10:15-17,ps 95:7,Jer 31:33,34,acts 19:2-6,21:4,28:25)(from Insight on the Scriptures vol. 2,a JW publication)
With just a little reasoning with the texts that talk about the holy spirit talking,it becomes simple to comprehend that it IS God speaking through others,by means of HIS holy spirit.Another easy concept.What do you think Jesus meant when he said his words were not his own?(John 14:10,John 3:34)
John 20:21 Jesus said to them: “May you have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending you.” 22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”
Did Jesus here blow out of his mouth the 3rd person of the same God that he is on his disciples OR did he breathe HOLY breath(which conveniently is the definition of spirit!) and power and influence that God dispenses THROUGH the agency of the Messiah so that the disciples could have the power of God to forgive sins like Jesus did?God forgives sin through Yeshua.He can likewise forgive sin through the disciples in the very same fashion.Not by their being possessed by a person in a fictional "godhead,"but rather by means of God working through them by means of his spirit.Even OUR spirits are magnificent,indescribable,and unfathomable.How much more GOD'S!Ours animates us and cause us to breathe,move and exist.God's is HOLY and inimitable,it being His after all.If ours is so overwhelming,how much more our Creator's who the very heavens cannot even contain!!
How can Jesus have the spirit so fully and magnificently if he isn't the same God his father is?
John 3:34:For the one whom God sent forth speaks the sayings of God, for he does not give the spirit by measure.
What these texts tell me is that Yaheweh,Yeshua's father,is the SOURCE of the holy spirit..He GIVES it to Yeshua without measure and Yeshua,as mediator and due to authority afforded him from his superior,dispenses measures of it to his followers so that they TOO can accomplish what he or his father would,EVEN FORGIVE SIN!Significantly,the spirit was given by Jesus BREATHING upon them,.Think about it.Did he breathe a PERSON?The text,verse 2 of John 20, could have just as easily and appropriately been translated "And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive sacred breath."I'm not suggesting the spirit doesn't imply much more than God's breath. Even our spirits imply more than that because they animate us and keep us alive.
We would not be able to breathe or live if God didn't afford us the opportunity with a dispension of his holy spirit.Remember he blew spirit,or breath, into Adam's nostrils.(Gen 2:7)He didn't breathe a person into Adam's nostrils,nor did a person live in Adam's nostrils.Keeping in mind the REAL definition of our spirits and also God's spirit,and Adam having spirit in his nostrils the holy spirit being given it's real definition makes much more sense!
Personification:
The holy spirit,being of the Almighty God,owned and operated by him,would be appropriately personifiable.Don't assume it is a person because it is personified sporadically..otherwise you are assuming something the whole of the bible fails to support and also recognizing wisdom and trees etc. must be people by these easily disprovable standards.It's clearly a bias to say that it's personified and therefore a person.I'm not presupposing it's a person like trinitarians are because of an entrenched tradition but rather simply recognizing the definition of spirit,that we all have a personifiable one,and that translations with arbitrary use of "he" and "who" as opposed to "it" and "which" and also arbitrary capitalization are bias.It always amazes me when trinitarians say the NWT is clearly a horrific translation when it has no more error than other translations that are also bias.Time to extract the rafter.
"The occasional personifications which he(Paul) employs do not go beyond the personifications found in the OT and in Judaism."-John L. Mckenzie Bible dictionary p. 883
"When the spirit is the mode of God's presence in the hearts and minds of His people ,then there is a good case for personal language."-C.F.D Moule "The Holy Spirit" p.50
To quote Christian author Ray Franz from the essay "What is the Holy Spirit:"
"It is true that the Holy Spirit is spoken of as speaking,teaching,guiding,being grieved etc.However..anyone who has read the bible as whole would realize that it is EXTREMELY common to personify objects and forces..."
Then Ray goes on to list many examples where things like the desert,earth,mountain,rivers,the gates of Jerusalem etc. do things like rejoicing,singing,clapping hands,lamenting,mourning etc..He also points out that Wisdom is spoken of as if it were a woman and FAR more is said about personified wisdom than is said about personified Holy Spirit.She(Wisdom) raises her voice,exhorts,reproves,rejects,ignores,despises,mocks,guards..can be loved and embraced.She has a mouth and lips,attains knowledge,loves and hates,slaughters animals,offers bread and wine.The list goes on!As Ray says,trinitarians won't fail to offer such a list as supposed proof that the Holy Spirit OF God is actually a person.I would point out that if I described MY spirit as speaking,crying,grieving etc NO ONE would assume "her spirit is an extra person in her being apparently!"The list of Wisdom's personifications far exceeds that of the spirit of God.Personification was just as tenable a reality in the NT than the OT.(Matt 11:19,Luke 7:35 etc.)One text trinitarians like to use to say it's a person is 1 John 5:6 & 7,inexplicably,where the spirit testifies,completely ignoring or being blinded to the fact that in the SAME texts water and blood testify.Are they two other people too?At Romans 10:6 righteousness speaks!To quote Ray:
"How different is it to speak of the Holy Spirit as guiding and to speak of wisdom as reproving,guarding,and keeping?How different is it to speak of the holy spirit as being grieved and to speak of love as being patient,enduring,not quick to take offense or irritable?"-from essay "What is the Holy Spirit" by Ray Franz
It is a weak argument to say that something that speaks and grieves etc. has to be a person given the definition of spirit,that we all have one that isn't a person within us and that God has one too..He is composed of it,is omniscient by means of it,indwells us by sharing it with an appointed mediator who he loves.
"Because it carries the personal presence of Christ into the life of every believer ,the use of PERSONIFICATION is highly appropriate."-Graeser,Lynn,Schoenheit "One God One Lord p.596
Even our spirits,because of how dynamic they are,considering they animate us with breath along with life,are appropriately and highly personifiable!How much more God's Holy one!
It IS "of God"(HIS and therefore sometimes rightfully personified in relation TO him)..Here are a few more examples of non-people being personified(it's not uncommon):
Luke 7:35,Romans 7:8,Romans 5:14,21,1 John 5:6-8,1 Corinthians 12:15,16,Ps. 96:11,12,Is. 55:12
**Luke 7:35-Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."
**Romans 7:8-11:sin dies,revives,deceives and slews.
**Rom 5:14,21-death reigned from Adam to Moses21just as sin ruled by bringing death, so also grace might rule by bringing justification that results in eternal life through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord.
**1 John 5:6-8- water and blood bear witness too
**I Cor. 12:15,16-If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body.... And if the ear shall say, because I am not of the body .
**Psa. 96:11,12-Let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad. …let the field be joyful . . then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
**Isa. 55:12-the mountains and hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees shall clap their hands
There are many more examples than that,just making a point.
When angels would speak Yah's messages as his messengers,they didn't enter or possess people.They appeared before them.They can be SEEN AS ANGELS..When has the holy spirit ever been seen as a person or given a personal name?By trinitarian standards,wisdom,knowledge,trees,etc. could all be people because they are sometimes ,even though inanimate non-persons given personification in a poetic way.Trinitarian standards are easily refuted at many turns.For instance,we as Christians can have the "fullness of God" by means of the holy spirit as well,just as Christ did.The difference is we aren't said to have it "without measure"..If fullness of God,which I maintain is accomplished by a generous and lovely dispension of the holy spirit unto believers,means one IS the True God,then we really have a problem.Yet trinitarians won't hesitate to say it makes Jesus the same Only True God that he said only his father was!
Now to cover a text those who believe God's spirit is God's third person love to use to prove that it is:
Acts 13:2:While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
Put quite simply God IS speaking through others by means of His spirit,representing his divine presence wherever he measures it and pours it out,in essence,his agency of accomplishment.Similar to how I could use my arm to lift something..my arm did it,but ultimately it was ME using my arm.OBVIOUSLY the teachers and prophets are speaking in this text who HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.It is personified in relation to who is talking with it.God pours it out on his servants.Does God split up and pour out his third person all over the map and portions of this person appear as doves and such?..OR does God influence the righteous by means of his breath..his power,the REAL definition of his spirit?Can you show me in Acts 13:2 where the holy spirit is seen..are you sure it isn''t God using his power and force to talk through others and the means by which he does is speaking through others by MEANS of his spirit,his power,his influence,his "breath"..therefore "He said"
*While some texts refer to the spirit as "witnessing","speaking" or "saying" things ,other texts make it clear that it spoke THROUGH other persons having no personal voice of it's own(heb 3:7,10:15-17,ps 95:7,Jer 31:33,34,acts 19:2-6,21:4,28:25)(from Insight on the Scriptures vol. 2,a JW publication)
With just a little reasoning with the texts that talk about the holy spirit talking,it becomes simple to comprehend that it IS God speaking through others,by means of HIS holy spirit.Another easy concept.What do you think Jesus meant when he said his words were not his own?(John 14:10,John 3:34)
Wednesday, April 14, 2010
Is the Holy Spirit of God the third person of a trinity?
Some of this is inspired by the excellent book "Divine Truth or Human Tradition?: A Reconsideration of the Roman Catholic-Protestant Doctrine of the Trinity in Light of the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures" by Patrick Navas.Many of the quotes were taken from that book's section on the holy spirit,where he quotes a lot of people.
Friday, June 5, 2009
What is the holy spirit?
John 3:34:For the one whom God sent forth speaks the sayings of God, for he does not give the spirit by measure.
John 20:22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”
What these texts tell me is that Jehovah,Jesus's father,is the SOURCE of the holy spirit..He GIVES it to Jesus without measure and Jesus ,as mediator and due to authority afforded him from his superior,dispenses measures of it to his followers so that they TOO can accomplish what he or his father would,EVEN FORGIVE SIN!Significantly,the spirit was given by Jesus BREATHING upon them,.Think about it.Did he breathe a PERSON??Are people baptized in a PERSON and water and fire??
This video is simple enough...from youtube user ancienthebreworg..I have tried to reason with trinitarians that our spirit is our breath,what animates us and so God's HOLY spirit is a kazillion times more dynamic and unexplainable than even ours and so He can use it in ways we cannot fathom or understand but that it ISN'T a PERSON..I hope you'll sincerely watch this..very brief though it may be,it should REALLY help you embrace something true if you're willing...I don't like to define the holy spirit as anything but the holy spirit..I'm not sure "active force" does it justice..it is certainly not to be put into words..if our spirits animate us,make us breathe like electricity for a TV imagine GOD'S how dynamic and unfathomable!The main point I'm trying to make is that it is extraordinary because it is God's BUT THAT IT ISN'T A PERSON lol..MAYBE part of the problem is the common "Christian" belief that spirits are separate entities that survive our deaths.This is false.When our spirits return to God that means our lives are in his hands..He can return our breath(ruah,pneuma=spirit=breath) and animation at the resurrection.Not that we're alive when we are dead...We have to be raised before we are alive again after we die.That is WHY there is a resurrection.If we were already in our destinations why the need for one?!I've heard it all..EXAMINE ALL THINGS.
John 20:22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”
What these texts tell me is that Jehovah,Jesus's father,is the SOURCE of the holy spirit..He GIVES it to Jesus without measure and Jesus ,as mediator and due to authority afforded him from his superior,dispenses measures of it to his followers so that they TOO can accomplish what he or his father would,EVEN FORGIVE SIN!Significantly,the spirit was given by Jesus BREATHING upon them,.Think about it.Did he breathe a PERSON??Are people baptized in a PERSON and water and fire??
This video is simple enough...from youtube user ancienthebreworg..I have tried to reason with trinitarians that our spirit is our breath,what animates us and so God's HOLY spirit is a kazillion times more dynamic and unexplainable than even ours and so He can use it in ways we cannot fathom or understand but that it ISN'T a PERSON..I hope you'll sincerely watch this..very brief though it may be,it should REALLY help you embrace something true if you're willing...I don't like to define the holy spirit as anything but the holy spirit..I'm not sure "active force" does it justice..it is certainly not to be put into words..if our spirits animate us,make us breathe like electricity for a TV imagine GOD'S how dynamic and unfathomable!The main point I'm trying to make is that it is extraordinary because it is God's BUT THAT IT ISN'T A PERSON lol..MAYBE part of the problem is the common "Christian" belief that spirits are separate entities that survive our deaths.This is false.When our spirits return to God that means our lives are in his hands..He can return our breath(ruah,pneuma=spirit=breath) and animation at the resurrection.Not that we're alive when we are dead...We have to be raised before we are alive again after we die.That is WHY there is a resurrection.If we were already in our destinations why the need for one?!I've heard it all..EXAMINE ALL THINGS.
Friday, January 30, 2009
Is the holy spirit Almighty God?
The holy spirit is poured out onto and inside Christ's and Jehovah's followers.It impregnated Mary and appeared as a dove and a flame.It is repeatedly said to be "of God" (Gen. 1:2)and "of Christ" so obviously it is something they can own or that we can own in whatever measure God allows or permits.(Heb. 2:4)In other words,all these facts would be inconsistent with calling the holy spirit Almighty God.It IS however consistent with claiming that it is an active force,an exercised power,that Jehovah uses to accomplish his every will,from creation to blessing,from helping followers recall scripture to displaying fruits in the lives of Christians.It is what makes God omniscient in that his holy spirit can be anywhere all at once and in whatever measure accomplishing anything because it is controlled by it's possessor Jehovah.For example,if Jehovah wanted to heal someone of something,he could send forth HIS holy spirit and it could be done automatically.Not because the holy spirit IS Jehovah,unless you're willing to believe God takes the form of doves(then we have a dove god on our hands)and enters us(God possession?)..It is never given a personal name,because it isn't a person.IT is personified on occasion with "he" and "speaks" grieves" etc because sometimes in scripture things or aspects etc. are personified (also because it IS "of God",HIS and therefore sometimes rightfully personified in relation TO him)..Here are a few examples of non-people being personified(it's not uncommon):
**Luke 7:35-Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."
**Romans 7:8:But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
**Rom 5:14,21-death reigned from Adam to Moses21just as sin ruled by bringing death, so also grace might rule by bringing justification that results in eternal life through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord.
**1 John 5:6-8- water and blood bear witness too
**I Cor. 12:15,16-If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body.... And if the ear shall say, because I am not of the body .
**Psa. 96:11,12-Let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad. …let the field be joyful . . then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
**Isa. 55:12-the mountains and hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees shall clap their hands
There are many more examples than that,just making a point.
When angels would speak Jah's messages as his messengers..they didn't enter or possess people..thay appeared before them.They can be SEEN AS ANGELS..When has the holy spirit ever been seen as a person or given a personal name?By trinitarian standards,wisdom,knowledge,trees,etc would all be people because they are sometimes ,even though inanimate, given personification in a poetic way.This isn't to say however that something as extraordinary as Yah's very spirit isn't personal.It is his VERY personal outreach!
So what is the holy spirit exactly?
*Genesis 1:2- Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
*John 14:17-Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
*God anointed [Jesus] with holy spirit and power(Acts 10:38)
**Romans 8: 9-You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
**Romans 8:14-because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God
*John 3:8-The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit<--wind felt not seen
compare to:
*Job 33:4-The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life
*1 Corinthians 12:3-3:Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
**Luke 11:20-But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.compare to:
*Matthew 12:28-But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you
The holy spirit is called the finger of God..Jesus is called the arm of God(figuratively),not that either (Jesus or the spirit)is a literal finger or arm,but this proves to me that Jehovah possesses(owns) them both(Jesus AND the spirit) and uses them to get his will done,or rather works by means of them.The difference is,Jesus has a personal name and an obvious identity as God's most beloved son.(Matthew 3:17)
So when the spirit IS seen is it ever seen as a person?And isn't it therefore a figurative or symbolic vision?Don't you think it is peculiar and precarious to assume it is a person without a name and form(where is he in heaven when Jehovah and Jesus are clearly pictured,repeatedly)?
Why when the apostles talked about Jesus and Jehovah in all those verses is the holy spirit RARELY mentioned in the same texts?(Acts 7:55,56)Wouldn't that be blasphemous and unheard of if the holy spirit is an equal almighty God?Why when Jehovah and Jesus are pictured in heaven(always distinct mind you) is there never a literal person of another equal Supreme being with them in the whole what should be a "trinity" setting??Even in most of the supposed trinity "proof" texts,the holy spirit is conspicuously absent.Where's the holy spirit in this equation?:
**I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Ultimately it is Jehovah ,by means of his holy spirit,speaking through his messengers and servants..what do you think Jesus meant when he said his words were not his own?Remember the dove descending upon him?God spoke THROUGH him BY MEANS of his spirit.(John 12:49)Therefore Jesus possesses it as well,more of it than any other servant of Jehovah!(John 3:34)Hence,as mediator,Jesus dispenses the spirit of God to true Christians and sincere seeekers as is seen fit.(Acts 10:45 )
So whenever you see "he" in relation to the holy spirit,remember that things that are not persons are poetically personified in scripture at times.And the holy spirit,being a force of the Almighty God,owned and operated by him,would be as well.That's when it is time to weigh the evidence and reason with the bible as a whole.Don't assume it is a person because it is personified sporadically..otherwise you are assuming something the whole of the bible fails to support and also recognizing wisdom and trees etc. must be people.(which I'm sure you don't)
***NOW for some points taken from a webpage that inspired this blog..these words are from the site below.(which is NOT affiliated with the Jehovah's Witnesses)
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d910201.htm
**Note how Paul and the other apostles consistently referred to the authority of the ones they represented in the opening salutation to their epistles. Look at what they state. "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; II Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; Phil. 1:2; Col. 1:2; 1 Thes. 1:1; II Thes. 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:2; II Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; II Pet. 1:2).
**Note that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit whatever in the introductions to these epistles. Other apostles show the same thing. James said he was "a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" (James 1:1) -- no mention of the Holy Spirit.
In I Corinthians 3:23 Christians are said to belong to Christ as he belongs to God — but nothing about anyone belonging to the Holy Spirit as though he were an equal personality too.
** In I Corinthians 15:28 Paul said all things would be subdued by Christ, and that Christ would in turn hand over all power to God the Father. But the Holy Spirit as a co-personality is not so much as mentioned in Paul’s account and in the figuring in of this transference of power and authority
**"Whither shall I go from thy Spirit" (Psa.139:7). It is God’s Spirit, not himself, which pervades the totality of the universe. God, as a personality and as an individual is in one place at one time and He is not (of himself as a personality) located everywhere at the same time throughout the universe That the Spirit can be everywhere at once like an electrical power that emanates from God. That is why the Spirit itself cannot be an individual or else it too would not be able to be everywhere at the same time. But if the Spirit is simply the power of God to accomplish his purposes, that Spirit can encompass at all times the totality of the universe.
**On the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s rising from the dead, the Bible says the Spirit came into all the disciples "as a rushing mighty wind" (Acts 2:2). It filled not only each of the persons in the house with spiritual power.If we understand that the Holy Spirit is simply the power of God (like some kind of electrical energy) to accomplish God’s purposes, all can become much more comprehensible and reasonable.
***NOW for a few points from "Insight on the scriptures" vol.2,a JW publication.
**Justin Martyr(2nd century ce) taught that the holy spirit "was an influence or a mode of operation of the deity".Not until the 4th century did it become church dogma.
*"In the name of the holy spirit" implies recognition of that spirit as having its source in God and as exercising its function according to the divine will.
*Further evidence against the idea of personality as regards the holy spirit is the way it is used in association with other impersonal things ,like water and fire (mt. 3:11,mark 1:9)(side note:I am no longer willing to call God's spirit "impersonal" since it is GOD's.Just because it isn't a separate person from him doesn't mean it's impersonal in that God is present with us by means of it!)
*Persons are spoken of as being "filled" with it along with such qualities as wisdom and faith(Acts 6:3,5,11:24)or joy(Acts 13:52).It is inserted in with a number of such qualities at 2 Cor 6:6
*While some texts refer to the spirit as "witnessing","speaking" or "saying" things ,other texts make it clear that it spoke THROUGH other persons having no personal voice of it's own(heb 3:7,10:15-17,ps 95:7,Jer 31:33,34,acts 19:2-6,21:4,28:25)
*Where a human craftsman would use the force of his hands and fingers to produce things,God uses his spirit.Hence that spirit is also spoken of as God's "hand" or "fingers"..(compare Ps. 8:3,19:1,Matthew 12:28 and Luke 11:20)
*Moses found his load of responsibility heavy so God "took away some of the spirit that was upon Moses and placed it upon 70 older men"so that they might help in carrying the load." (Numbers 1:11-17,24-30)
*It can be "poured out" fitting people for spiritual works like teaching,guiding,shepherding ,and counseling.It's fruitage is love,joy,peace,long suffering,kindness,mildness,goodness,self control and faith.(Gal 5:24-26,6:1,Acts 6:1-7,Ez 36:26,27)
And to summarize,the Insight book also points out that it is a free gift to sincere seekers,the right heart being a key factor.To disregard its leanings could be disastrous.It IS what God uses to move and direct Christians so to ignore it would essentially be to reject God.So when it is personified or when it "speaks" ect. it is obviously IN RELATION to its owner,Jehovah,THE Almighty.
**Luke 7:35-Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."
**Romans 7:8:But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
**Rom 5:14,21-death reigned from Adam to Moses21just as sin ruled by bringing death, so also grace might rule by bringing justification that results in eternal life through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord.
**1 John 5:6-8- water and blood bear witness too
**I Cor. 12:15,16-If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body.... And if the ear shall say, because I am not of the body .
**Psa. 96:11,12-Let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad. …let the field be joyful . . then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
**Isa. 55:12-the mountains and hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees shall clap their hands
There are many more examples than that,just making a point.
When angels would speak Jah's messages as his messengers..they didn't enter or possess people..thay appeared before them.They can be SEEN AS ANGELS..When has the holy spirit ever been seen as a person or given a personal name?By trinitarian standards,wisdom,knowledge,trees,etc would all be people because they are sometimes ,even though inanimate, given personification in a poetic way.This isn't to say however that something as extraordinary as Yah's very spirit isn't personal.It is his VERY personal outreach!
So what is the holy spirit exactly?
*Genesis 1:2- Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
*John 14:17-Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
*God anointed [Jesus] with holy spirit and power(Acts 10:38)
**Romans 8: 9-You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
**Romans 8:14-because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God
*John 3:8-The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit<--wind felt not seen
compare to:
*Job 33:4-The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life
*1 Corinthians 12:3-3:Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
**Luke 11:20-But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.compare to:
*Matthew 12:28-But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you
The holy spirit is called the finger of God..Jesus is called the arm of God(figuratively),not that either (Jesus or the spirit)is a literal finger or arm,but this proves to me that Jehovah possesses(owns) them both(Jesus AND the spirit) and uses them to get his will done,or rather works by means of them.The difference is,Jesus has a personal name and an obvious identity as God's most beloved son.(Matthew 3:17)
So when the spirit IS seen is it ever seen as a person?And isn't it therefore a figurative or symbolic vision?Don't you think it is peculiar and precarious to assume it is a person without a name and form(where is he in heaven when Jehovah and Jesus are clearly pictured,repeatedly)?
Why when the apostles talked about Jesus and Jehovah in all those verses is the holy spirit RARELY mentioned in the same texts?(Acts 7:55,56)Wouldn't that be blasphemous and unheard of if the holy spirit is an equal almighty God?Why when Jehovah and Jesus are pictured in heaven(always distinct mind you) is there never a literal person of another equal Supreme being with them in the whole what should be a "trinity" setting??Even in most of the supposed trinity "proof" texts,the holy spirit is conspicuously absent.Where's the holy spirit in this equation?:
**I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Ultimately it is Jehovah ,by means of his holy spirit,speaking through his messengers and servants..what do you think Jesus meant when he said his words were not his own?Remember the dove descending upon him?God spoke THROUGH him BY MEANS of his spirit.(John 12:49)Therefore Jesus possesses it as well,more of it than any other servant of Jehovah!(John 3:34)Hence,as mediator,Jesus dispenses the spirit of God to true Christians and sincere seeekers as is seen fit.(Acts 10:45 )
So whenever you see "he" in relation to the holy spirit,remember that things that are not persons are poetically personified in scripture at times.And the holy spirit,being a force of the Almighty God,owned and operated by him,would be as well.That's when it is time to weigh the evidence and reason with the bible as a whole.Don't assume it is a person because it is personified sporadically..otherwise you are assuming something the whole of the bible fails to support and also recognizing wisdom and trees etc. must be people.(which I'm sure you don't)
***NOW for some points taken from a webpage that inspired this blog..these words are from the site below.(which is NOT affiliated with the Jehovah's Witnesses)
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d910201.htm
**Note how Paul and the other apostles consistently referred to the authority of the ones they represented in the opening salutation to their epistles. Look at what they state. "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; II Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; Phil. 1:2; Col. 1:2; 1 Thes. 1:1; II Thes. 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:2; II Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; II Pet. 1:2).
**Note that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit whatever in the introductions to these epistles. Other apostles show the same thing. James said he was "a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" (James 1:1) -- no mention of the Holy Spirit.
In I Corinthians 3:23 Christians are said to belong to Christ as he belongs to God — but nothing about anyone belonging to the Holy Spirit as though he were an equal personality too.
** In I Corinthians 15:28 Paul said all things would be subdued by Christ, and that Christ would in turn hand over all power to God the Father. But the Holy Spirit as a co-personality is not so much as mentioned in Paul’s account and in the figuring in of this transference of power and authority
**"Whither shall I go from thy Spirit" (Psa.139:7). It is God’s Spirit, not himself, which pervades the totality of the universe. God, as a personality and as an individual is in one place at one time and He is not (of himself as a personality) located everywhere at the same time throughout the universe That the Spirit can be everywhere at once like an electrical power that emanates from God. That is why the Spirit itself cannot be an individual or else it too would not be able to be everywhere at the same time. But if the Spirit is simply the power of God to accomplish his purposes, that Spirit can encompass at all times the totality of the universe.
**On the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s rising from the dead, the Bible says the Spirit came into all the disciples "as a rushing mighty wind" (Acts 2:2). It filled not only each of the persons in the house with spiritual power.If we understand that the Holy Spirit is simply the power of God (like some kind of electrical energy) to accomplish God’s purposes, all can become much more comprehensible and reasonable.
***NOW for a few points from "Insight on the scriptures" vol.2,a JW publication.
**Justin Martyr(2nd century ce) taught that the holy spirit "was an influence or a mode of operation of the deity".Not until the 4th century did it become church dogma.
*"In the name of the holy spirit" implies recognition of that spirit as having its source in God and as exercising its function according to the divine will.
*Further evidence against the idea of personality as regards the holy spirit is the way it is used in association with other impersonal things ,like water and fire (mt. 3:11,mark 1:9)(side note:I am no longer willing to call God's spirit "impersonal" since it is GOD's.Just because it isn't a separate person from him doesn't mean it's impersonal in that God is present with us by means of it!)
*Persons are spoken of as being "filled" with it along with such qualities as wisdom and faith(Acts 6:3,5,11:24)or joy(Acts 13:52).It is inserted in with a number of such qualities at 2 Cor 6:6
*While some texts refer to the spirit as "witnessing","speaking" or "saying" things ,other texts make it clear that it spoke THROUGH other persons having no personal voice of it's own(heb 3:7,10:15-17,ps 95:7,Jer 31:33,34,acts 19:2-6,21:4,28:25)
*Where a human craftsman would use the force of his hands and fingers to produce things,God uses his spirit.Hence that spirit is also spoken of as God's "hand" or "fingers"..(compare Ps. 8:3,19:1,Matthew 12:28 and Luke 11:20)
*Moses found his load of responsibility heavy so God "took away some of the spirit that was upon Moses and placed it upon 70 older men"so that they might help in carrying the load." (Numbers 1:11-17,24-30)
*It can be "poured out" fitting people for spiritual works like teaching,guiding,shepherding ,and counseling.It's fruitage is love,joy,peace,long suffering,kindness,mildness,goodness,self control and faith.(Gal 5:24-26,6:1,Acts 6:1-7,Ez 36:26,27)
And to summarize,the Insight book also points out that it is a free gift to sincere seekers,the right heart being a key factor.To disregard its leanings could be disastrous.It IS what God uses to move and direct Christians so to ignore it would essentially be to reject God.So when it is personified or when it "speaks" ect. it is obviously IN RELATION to its owner,Jehovah,THE Almighty.
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