This man believes in the trinity and orthodox hellfire misintepretation but I still respect this competent exegesis of Romans 9.There are other possibilities I have heard before that are sensible as well..anything that lines up with the entirety of the scriptures and God's definition of and revelation of his own personality is obviously superior to the Calvinist one.I recommend cutting and pasting the url and watching it on youtube as it will be bigger there.It's one of those big vids that consumes your screen ;)..One thumb up for exposing and refuting Calvinism.One thumb down for not being able to exegete hellfire passages the same way you do Romans 9.(in their OT context,for heaven's sake)(to the guy in this vid)
addendum:Btw,I have 2 new Romans 9 exegesis blogs from January 2010.Read parts 1 and 2 for my take on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msu-dtnge5M
As I watched this,I was reminded how small and narrow minded the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 actually is.It is very similar to hellfire adherents inability to interpret texts in their OT context that CLEARLY explains what it all means.Obviously,this will not be good enough for most Calvinists assuming they "make sure of all things" before adopting their erroneoous theology.For those Calvinists who say that the texts should just be read straight through and believed by what they say on the surface and the entire bible interpreted in light of that, I can only wonder why in the world you think one chapter in the bible that is explained in context like this guy competently does here should make the entire bible's constant revelations of God's impartiality and awe inspiring awesome personality moot.Of COURSE he has wrath but it is only temporary and against willful unrepentant sinners detrimentally abusing their free will,always.As a Calvinist,you are no longer able to interpret the bible straightforwardly like you brag about doing in Romans 9!Every text you behold becomes "well,in light of Romans 9" instead of just simple truth.I will provide a few very sarcastic examples for those who can stomach sarcasm now and then to get a point across.If not,skip ahead and save yourself the trouble of taking offense ;)
Deut 30:19:I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live..Oh wait!I have already chosen for you so just go about your business and assume you're saved..if you aren't,sorry 'bout that!My fault!All these declarations I make that you have a choice are a SHOW,a facade.Not sure why I keep telling you to repent and that you have the choice but no..I will repent FOR you and make the choice on your behalf.Sit back and let me do all the work while you just skip about hoping you're like Jacob and not Esau!
Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD because I didn't let them because I am sadistically partial EVEN though I SAID I epitomize love and am impartial .I just want to see some folks burn(forever!) because it magnifies my holiness according to some men who didn't really get this notion from the book I wrote for them.But ,then,don't say I didn't warn you about false teachers now!My holiness is in fact magnified by ELIMINATING evil and "making all things new",not by preserving the worst kind imaginable into all of eternity.But don't let me telling you the wicked will be consumed and become ashes make you think they won't be alive forever in flames!Instead,let traditon,symbolism and manmade philosophy become your reality over my clear testimony!
Jeremiah 32:35:they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination..Erase that!Not only did it enter my mind,but I decreed it and am so pleased to see my holiness magnified in this absurd display of sadism and horror.It makes the good I will decree shine that much brighter!Praise my haphazard sadism and be glad that I was partial enough to choose you for NO reason whatsoever and burn innocent children for my good pleasure even though it disgusts me..Makes sense,huh?Did I mention I am haphazard and partial?
James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.Hold up!Let me rearrange."God will MAKE you draw close to him and purify your hearts.You cannot do it of your own initiative"
Eve SAID she was deceived by the serpent when in all actuality,she was deceived by me and then sinned because I made her.Poor Eve.She's just a pawn in my game and though all evidence points to the fact that she had the choice to partake of the fruit or not,ignore that evidence!Obviously,she didn't.And then she didn't become ashes at all..she's still burning where worms never die..worms said to be on corpses in Is 66:24 but don't believe that!They're on souls burning alive!
Texts like these(minus the sarcasm of the Calvinist God's rearrangement) are endless and should not be interpreted in light of men's flawed exegesis of a few texts that have superior interpretations like the ones presented in the vid above.Calvinism truly concerns me because the God of Calvinism is NOT the God of true Christianity.
Acts 10:34 For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. (It doesn't say God is partial and in every nation the man that he makes fear him will be acceptable..does it?)The Calvinist rearrangement of texts rivals the trinitarian!I'm not sure who would win in the "make it fit" competition!
God DESIRES all men to attain to repentance.That is honestly what he desires.As a Calvinist,your arrogant perception is an atrocious attack on God's true desires.Let Him be as merciful, loving, impartial, and just as he wants to be.Stop misrepresenting him and extending the wrath he has against sin into all of eternity where the kingdom is supposed to reign with NO sin or death,as opposed to sinners being preserved in an "eternal dying process".A kingdom where whoever CHOSE life and used their free will according to God's purposes will live forever in benevolent conditions without arrogantly perceiving they got there because God played duck duck goose and decided to burn others who weren't as fortunate in the game for all of eternity.If that makes you feel good,see a therapist.If you can live peacefully and blissfully in your arrogance with people you loved burning alive forever,see a therapist.
Btw,this is a plea to accept truth and an attack on giant misrepresentations of God and not on Calvinist individuals who have been misled.
I'll take a look at this video hopefully in the near future. But in the meantime, have you listened to James White's exposition found here:
ReplyDeletehttp://mp3.aomin.org/JRW/Romans9.mp3
I think if you listen to this as well as another informed exposition from the other side (which this video seems to be), I think one could make an educated decision as to which side is doing exegesis as opposed to eisegesis.
Kellie, in the future i'd also like to see your verse-by-verse exegesis of Romans 9 beginning in 8:28 where the "golden chain of redemption" is. Not necessarily a full commentary, but just some brief points after each verse showing how you would walk through this text.
I've seen many, many non-Calvinists try to walk through this text, and always fail just like they try in John 6. I'll give this guy a listen, but i'm not going to expect him to come up with something new that hasn't been said before.
yessir!I will say the same thing I said to Brian.Either God is impartial or he isn't.Scripture says he is..you say he isn't.Either we have choices or we do not.God says we do..you say we do not.etc.It isn't so much a matter of what SOUNDS best to you in terms of exegesis of Romans 9 but rather what is true and hence in harmony with the entire feel and spirit and revelation of the bible itself.I would like to see you take this guy's exegesis of Romans 9 and point out why he isn't possibly accurate,always keeping in mind what God proclaims his personality as being as well as how he defined each aspect of his personality.It is grossly incongruent with your theology and that should be a wake up call.The best you could do would be to presume that Romans 9 is in application to each person's individual salvation instead of what this guy presents.But that is just your speculation and nothing else.Again,in opposition to the ENTIRE BIBLE and God's personality and standards that he defined and set himself!What you know God said throughout his word succintly should be looming large on your mind in logically interpreting texts.Quite literally,you have to deem as moot most of scripture to believe the Calvinist interpretation.
ReplyDeleteFred Phelps and the group of nuts in the Westboro Baptist church are an example of the dangers of Calvinism. While most Calvinist aren't that extreme, their doctrines seem to encourage thinking that may lead one in that direction. If one accepts all of the 5 points of Calvinism, he opens himself up to a fatalistic view and one that's contrary to scripture.
ReplyDelete