Colossians 1:16(a response to a blog someone else wrote)

You have to read the blog here:

Ivan's blog on Colossians 1:16

before this one will make any sense.His blog was in response to a video I sent him where Sean Finnegan and Sean's friend discuss the text.I highly recommend watching that too here:

Sean's video


Here's my response to Ivan,too lengthy to post as a comment on his blog.Hopefully this will be of some help to those having any difficulty with this subject.

Hi Ivan.Glad you watched the video!Keep in mind the reconciliation and renewing process for humanity is ongoing till what happens at 1 Cor 15:27,28 takes place.Also,what I'm working with as *milk of the word* first before anything else are the following facts(these must be heeded when examining Colossians):

1.God created alone(Is. 44:24..who was with him?)
2.Jesus gave God credit for creating with no hint of agency.(Matthew 19:4,Mark 13:19)This would be odd if he created FOR God with his own hands.
3.God rested instead of Jesus.(Heb. 4:3,4)This would be odd if Jesus did all the work on behalf of God.
4.preposition dia can mean *in* or *for the sake of*,not just *through* or "by"
5.I think the bible is more than clear God created alone in his word and wisdom,not spirit creatures at all in unambiguous passages such as Proverbs 3:19 & Psalm 33:6.Christ fulfilled those functions of God when he became flesh.

Unlike some,I am not dogmatic that Col 1:16 can refer ONLY to a new creation.I find validity in James Dunn's points about God creating in his wisdom that *became* Christ(1 Cor. 1:30,1 Cor. 2:6,7) and his ruminations on the poetic writing and literary idiom the Hebrews sometimes employed to validate the cosmic significance of Jesus as the poetic fulfillment of all things.As a remarkable representation of that wisdom in which God created..A few quotes from him worthy of consideration(he did THOROUGH research on Hebrew mindsets and Wisdom literature):

"What at first reads as a straightforward assertion of Christ's pre-existent activity in creation becomes on closer analysis an assertion which is rather more profound--not of Christ as such present with God in the beginning,nor of Christ as identified with a pre-existent hypostasis or divine being(Wisdom) beside God,but of Christ as embodying and expressing (and defining) that power of God which is the manifestation of God in and to his creation."-James Dunn "Christology in the Making" p.194

Dunn also says:

"Paul picked up the Wisdom terminology and found it an important tool for asserting the finality of Christ's role in God's purpose for man and creation.But in using Wisdom terminology he inevitably incorporated language and ideas which were appropriate to Wisdom,the personified function of God.It is at least questionable whether in so doing he intended to assert the preexistence of Christ,or to affirm that Jesus was a divine being personally active in creation.This was simply the language which contemporary speculation and apologetic dictated that he must use if he was to assert the cosmic significance of Christ."pp.194-195

He goes on to point out that Paul had the same Hebrew mindset and was as firm in his monotheism as the OT authors who would have reacted negatively to a too literal interpretation of their Wisdom material.Some today use that Wisdom material(Prov 8:22-31 especially) to correlate with Colossians 1:16.Many Arians maintain that together they prove not only the pre-existence of Christ but also that he is creator.I agree with Dunn that this is ultimately unfounded,while also noticing a clear new creation context in Colossians 1 that he doesn't personally mention.

There is a STRONG kingdom context in Colossians,not just in verse 13.The context:kingdom of beloved son(verses 12-13),redemption and forgiveness(verse 14) the church(verse 18) & reconciliation(verse 20)(this is ongoing as I pointed out previously).."All things” are defined by kingdom terms as opposed to any Genesis narrative.Paul also wrote Ephesians in which you'll find many correlating verses.Verses which involve a new creation.Even IF you weren't satisfied with any Colossians 1 immediate context you would have to deal with Paul's writings elsewhere.Immediate context isn't always all that's to be heeded,as larger ones and correlating scriptures on the same subject can be just as helpful when interpreting.

From Ray Faircloth,who has written some great studies available on http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.uk/:

"The parallel letter of Ephesians (Eph.1:9-23 and 2:10) speaks only of the New Creation and gives a precise doctrinal correlation with Colossians 1. This further demonstrates that Colossians 1 applies to the New Creation consisting of “the Congregation of the firstborn” (Heb. 12:23) and the newly created angelic thrones, lordships, governments and authorities. (a new administration in 1 Peter 3:22). Nothing here applies to the inception of the Genesis creation. (Please also note the parallel phrases: Col.1:12/Eph.1:11; Col.1:16, 17, 20/Eph. 1:10, 21, 22).

Verse 16: “Because in (KIT) him all things were created , in the heavens and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him.”

The creating of an authority is not the physical creating of people.

‘In him’: Meaning ‘in union (or connection) with’, ‘in association with’, or ‘by reason of’ Bauer’s lexicon. In context this verse does not mean ‘by’ or ‘by means of’ "

Basically,I think the main creation in view overall is a new creation with allusions to the old poetically.That is why I'm able to embrace both Dunn's view(& Hebrew allegory or metaphor) as well as the new creation context,immediate AND larger.I feel this way because I think God had the new in mind even as he made the old.They were intertwined in some cosmic way as he created.Decreeing the end from the beginning and seeing things that aren’t as though they are.(Rev 13:8,Is. 46:9)Scriptures oft have allusions to dual fulfillments and I personally think that may be the case here.

If Colossians 1 is about a new creation,then firstborn "of all creation"(verse 15)and firstborn "from the dead"(verse 18) correlate beautifully in the tradition of Hebrew parallelism.To quote Greg Deuble:

"If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism,where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form,it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" mean the same thing."~p.244 "They Never Told Me THIS in Church"

I think that makes sense given the kingdom terminology employed to define "all things.""All" is oft qualified in context.I'm not entirely satisfied that he was just defining a couple of the things created in Genesis given the clear kingdom & new creation context,as well as the new creation correlating Ephesians(and other NT)passages.

I also understand that preexistence in the Hebrew mind(which I think you addressed in a blog..things like the Torah and the kingdom preexisted..Matt. 25:34) absolutely had to do with the decrees and plans of God in his heart and mind as good as fulfilled even if they didn't or won't materialize till a particular appointed time.(1 Peter 1:20,Gal. 4:4)

"When the Jew said something was ‘predestined,’ he thought of it as already ‘existing’ in a higher sphere of life. The world’s history is thus predestined because it is already, in a sense, preexisting and consequently fixed. This typically Jewish conception of predestination may be distinguished from the Greek idea of preexistence by the predominance of the thought of ‘preexistence’ in the Divine purpose."~E.C. Dewick, Primitive Christian Eschatology, The Hulsean Prize Essay for 1908, Cambridge University Press, 1912, pp. 253, 254. (gathered from Anthony Buzzard article "The Nature of Preexistence in the New Testament")

Also from the article:

A knowledge of the background to the New Testament reveals that Jews believed that even Moses "preexisted" in the counsels of God, but not actually as a conscious person:

"For this is what the Lord of the world has decreed: He created the world on behalf of his people, but he did not make this purpose of creation known from the beginning of the world so that the nations might be found guilty . . . But He did design and devise me [Moses], who was prepared from the beginning of the world to be the mediator of the covenant" (Testament of Moses, 1:13, 14).


I think it's fantastic that you're critically assessing all this.I had crises of conscience galore over my Arian beliefs,even wondering and having to pray about *exactly* who Jesus is now.For months on end.My view now was not an overnight occurrence but a real process.The more I studied the bible and Hebrew thinking,the more clear it all became.Oh,and yes,we WERE seated in Christ before time began so we preexisted according to the Hebrew definition of the word.(Rom 4:17,2 Tim. 1:9,Eph. 1:1-7)Saying we had glory in Christ with God since before the world was even made is not any different than saying that Christ had glory with God since before the world was even made.(Jn. 17:5)Only his glory is greater as savior of the world and heir of all things.

When wondering about these things,keep close in mind the milk first.Then the rest comes together.Some of that again would be:

1.God created alone(Is. 44:24..who was with him?)
2.Jesus gave God credit for creating with no hint of agency.(Matthew 19:4,Mark 13:19)This would be odd if he created FOR God with his own hands.
3.God rested instead of Jesus.(Heb. 4:3,4)This would be odd if Jesus did all the work on behalf of God.
4.preposition dia can mean *in* or *for the sake of*,not just *through* or *by*
5.I think the bible is more than clear God created alone in his word and wisdom,not spirit creatures at all in unambiguous passages such as Proverbs 3:19 & Psalm 33:6.Christ fulfilled those functions of God when he became flesh.


Yes,I learned quite well as a former Jehovah's Witness how to reiterate my points.

Oh,and I just thought of a 6th point.

2 Peter 3:16 says that Paul's letters contain some things that are hard to understand.If we let Paul interpret himself,he is speaking of a new creation.(Some Ephesians texts correlate with the Colossians ones language-wise and thoughts-wise as noted above)And we must let scripture interpret itself.Listening to Jesus is ALWAYS key.Who did he say made man and woman?

Matt. 19:4:Have you not read that *he* who created them from the beginning made them male and female