Friday, July 23, 2010

John 1:1,the Word of God,and "new light" on Jesus

If you haven't already,first read my previous blog post.I have to qualify here again that I am journeying into the Socinian mind and writing as a Socinian(those who don't believe Jesus preexisted)would to see how well their interpretations register with my reasoning.I must say,with John 1:1,very well so far!I hope to explain soon to my Arian friends why I'm seriously questioning my Arian tradition.Hopefully I will be able to articulate why satisfactorily so as to do this topic justice and bring glory to God and Christ always no matter what!May God guide us in our truth seeking to the absolute truth of his word and to the Jesus of the bible.May he have mercy on those of us who can admit we don't know everything,who have questions and crave answers in all earnestness as Christian seekers.God alone knows our deepest thoughts and yearnings and I have faith that as long as we're willing to humbly seek,we will by his spirit find.If there's one thing I have learned as a former Jehovah's Witness though,it is that if we are scared to question our traditions,if we're wrapped up in our doctrines at all costs,there is no way he can help us.We must become like children and surrender to him alone in Christ Jesus.

In further regards to John 1:1:

Often in scripture,the preposition "with" can,as Greg Deuble notes in "They never told me THIS in Church", "describe the relationship between a person and what is in his heart or mind."(p.192)Just a few examples:

2 Kings 3:12:And Jehoshaphat said, “The word of the LORD is with him.”
2 John 2 because of the truth that remains in us, and it will be with us forever
Jeremiah 27:18:If the word of the LORD is with them
Proverbs 11:12:Wisdom is with the humble

So is it any marvel that God's word was WITH him and so identified with him?Just like in these texts truth,God's word and wisdom even could be with US and identified WITH us because they're a poetic and poignant part of us?

This principle can be summed up in Proverbs 23:7:

For as he thinks within himself, so he is.

Yes,as God thinks and wills and purposes,wrapped up in his word which becomes reality if he makes it be so,can be (poetically)described as what he himself is.

2 Peter 3:5:long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Does this mean that by His Son the heavens and such existed or by God's will and plan and spoken word?

Rev. 4:11:Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.

God's *will*, *word*,*spirit* and *wisdom* ,encompassing his plans and attributes, can be spoken of as separate from him,poetically and understandably.God speaks and it comes to pass via divine strength,will,and wisdom.Does John ch 1say that GOD became flesh OR that his "word" did?Jesus was indeed fully expressive of God's plan,purpose,will,word and wisdom for being the Amen,God's vessel to inhabit by spirit fully,our redeemer,and the fulfillment of all things PURPOSED from the "beginning."Because of God's foreknowledge of our downfall and man's sure eventuality in abusing the gift of free will,hence needing a redeemer.

Taken from "Restoring the Biblical Christ.. Is Jesus God?" by Jason Kerrigan(who in this book does communicate his belief that Christ preexisted) Kerrigan notes definitions of "word".. p. 7

logos-something SAID(including the thought);by implication a topic(subject of discourse),also reasoning(the mental faculty) or motive;by extension a computation(-Strong's #3056)

rhema-an utterance(individually,collectively,or specifically);by implication a matter or topic(especially of narration,command or dispute)saying,word(-Strong's #4487)

Kerrigan says "Our words are expressions of our thoughts.Likewise,the word of God is the expression of God,and this expression is how God reveals himself."(p.8)

In Ephesians 6:17 the Word of God is identified as the *spirit.*

Kerrigan notes:"(because a word is an expression),the fact that the Spirit is called "The Word of God" shows us that God is somehow expressed via his spirit."(p.10)

And we all know that spirit was expressed in and through Christ more fully than anyone else ever,given him "without measure."(John 3:34)Make no mistake that the spirit of Christ IS the spirit of God meaning that which was GIVEN to him BY God to not only reveal God to the world through his person but also to dispense measures of it to believers due to this authority given him by his own God to do so as mediator and agent.

In 1 Cor. 2:9-12 ,God is revealed by his spirit because it searches the deep things of Him.It is likened to OUR spirits that "know us."Our spirits are within us yet not separate people that exist within our "beings."Similarly,God's spirit is within him and expressive of him and not a separate entity or person either.After all,it is compared to ours but is yet superior,unfathomable,and of course divine beyond measure,hence indescribable and personifiable and extraordinary!It's God's spirit after all!it searches the "deep things of God" and hence reveals those to us,sometimes through others,most especially Christ.I love the way Kerrigan in his book describes the spirit of man which can help us discern the definition of God's as well(pp.11-12)..He says:

"Our spirits search out the inward things that pertain to us so that those things may be brought forth,made intelligible,and applied to various situations in an orderly way."

Skipping ahead some..he says

"By way of analogy,it is like each of us is a big library,and in this library there are books that contain all our memories,books that contain all our emotions,and books that contain all our knowledge.When we learn something new it is our spirit that records those things in one of the library books(so to speak)and then places the book containing that knowledge within the shelves of our soul(our very being or own words to define soul here)until that knowledge is needed again.Our spirit is also what goes back to those books and retrieves the information stored in us so as to present that information to our thoughts(or AS our thoughts) in an orderly way.Hence,a man's spirit is not a personality that is distinct from the man,but is rather that man's own personality revealed."

Skipping ahead again..

"It is the spiritual man(the soul) residing within a man's physical body that is the SOURCE of that man's personality(2 Cor. 5:1-8,2 Peter 1:13-14).In a similar way that our spirits search us,so also the Spirit of God searches the things of God and brings those forth.This is how God is expressed via his Spirit-the Spirit searches the things of God and reveals those things outwardly."

Kerrigan points out that God's spirit isn't constrained by the boundaries that limit the spirits of human beings and that we have no spiritual power at all but by the grace of God.

God's expression,or logos(word) is his spirit in some sense in that the spirit reveals it to us.So in my personal opinion,when God's spirit impregnated a virgin womb,the spirit that caused the birth of Christ in the flesh revealed God's expressive *word* through Christ,and that is how and why the word became flesh,how and why God is revealed in Christ.Though Kerrigan believes Christ preexisted and so would not agree with some of my conclusions here,I agree with him when he says "We cannot partake of the Spirit of God apart from Christ.God is expressed in his Spirit,but we cannot perceive nor access that expression unless we look to Christ,through whom that expression is revealed."(p.13)(1 Tim 2:5)..He goes on to say "Christ IS the expression of God unto us(but only in an intermediary sense.)And this is why BOTH Christ AND the Spirit are called "The Word of God."The Spirit is God's word inherently,but Christ is God's word mediated unto us.The Spirit is the principle truth of God revealed,but Jesus is the one THROUGH whom that principle truth is revealed to us."(p. 13)(John 8:40,John 18:37)

Even though the bible says:

Psalm 33:6a (NASB)
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.

Psalms 107:20 (KJV)
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destruction.

It also says:

Isaiah 55:11 (NRSV)
So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; It shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

So the "word" spoken of comes forth from God's MOUTH.Similarly,God's spirit comes forth from his lips or mouth,as it does Jesus's when he BLEW the spirit upon his disciples in John to give them the power to forgive sin.(John 20:21-23)Yes indeed!..God's purposes come to fruition by means of his personifiable force and power,his spirit.From biblicalunitarian's site:

"Broughton and Southgate argue that “Word,” “Spirit” and “Wisdom” are all personified because they are intimately connected to how God has related to the world as its Creator, and that John’s use of logos is consistent with this biblical usage."

The article on the biblicalunitarian site about John 1:1 is taken from their book "One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith."All the rest of this blog,as long as it is in quotations is from the site linked above.Anything not in quotations are my personal thoughts.This is obviously just snippets from the site so visit it for in depth analysis and more from their book.

To quote them:

"We can see how John draws on all the Old Testament teaching…Wisdom is personified in Proverbs 8 as saying that she was in the beginning, that she was with God, and that she was His instrument in creation. The Word of God created the heavens (Ps. 33:6), and so did the Spirit as described in Job 26:13 (KJV) [and Gen. 1:2]. The language clearly is of figure and metaphor, of personification, not actual personality. And John is saying exactly the same of the logos or Word. No Jewish reader brought up on the writings of the prophets would have deduced from John’s introduction that he was alluding to a person who had existed with God from all time. They would see it instead as a continuation of the imagery by which the Word or Wisdom or the Spirit—those manifestations of God which are inseparable from Him—are described as putting God’s intentions into effect."--Broughton, James H. and Southgate, Peter J., The Trinity: True or False? (The Dawn Book Supply, Nottingham, 1995), p. 247."

The Jews being strictly unabashedly monotheistic understood the personifiability of the wisdom,spirit,word,etc. OF God without ever identifying those things as people within the being of God.

Also from the site:

"While in John 1:1 the logos is God’s self expression and His wisdom, plan and power, many times in the New Testament the logos is the message of the coming, the life, the death, the resurrection, the ascension, the exaltation, the lordship and the coming again of Jesus the Messiah. If the logos that was “in the beginning” is understood in these terms, then it becomes clear that God had this very series of events in mind when He created the cosmos. “The Word was God” (John 1:1) in that it is God’s self-revelation, the account that God chose to give of Himself and His will to all nations."

“In the beginning God” in Genesis 1:1. John tells us that “in the beginning” God had wisdom and a plan, and was prepared to start acting that plan out so that the people He created and invested His love in could be rescued from death and live with Him eternally. The crowning piece of the plan of God was the creation of Jesus Christ, who was in a very real sense, “the last word."

I guess in essence this could mean Jesus was the "beginning and the end" of God's plan of salvation and as the "creator" of the NEW heavens and NEW earth in that in him all things will consist and because of him it will come to be and for him God had a perfect kingdom in mind,to gift to a Son he so adores who faithfully served him in love and reverence,foreknown and decreed,slain even!,from the foundation of the world!God also had Christ in mind as redeemer and heir as he originally created,knowing mankind would fall and need his foreknown Son to save us with an imputation of his own superb righteousness.

More from site:
"God’s plan was being expressed in wisdom and action all through the Old Testament. The logos was being expressed as Abraham set off to sacrifice Isaac, as Moses lifted the serpent up on the pole, as Solomon built the Temple, and as Isaiah penned the verses stating that the Servant of God would be pierced for our transgressions. It was expressed in pieces and parts in history, as people acted, and in prophecy, as people spoke. Then one day, probably in 3 BC, the types, foreshadowings and prophecies ceased, and the logos, the plan, purpose, wisdom and power of God, “became flesh” in the man Jesus Christ."

"As E. W. Bullinger notes on John 1:1 in the Companion Bible: “As the spoken word reveals the invisible thought, so the Living Word reveals the invisible God.” (Bullinger, op. cit., Companion, p. 1512)

“Before Jesus’ conception in the womb of Mary, the logos was to Jesus what promise is to fulfillment. When “the logos became flesh,” the promise was fulfilled in the form of a person. "

"C. H. Dodd is another scholar who sees in the logos the meeting of the divine, God’s communication of Himself, with the human, the man in whom God most clearly revealed Himself. The logos is the “final concentration of the whole creative and revealing thought of God” in “an individual who is what humanity was designed to be in the divine purpose.” (C. H. Dodd, The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, (Cambridge, 1953), p. 282.) In other words, Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, is what Man was intended to be, the perfect representative of God."

“If Jesus is not identical to the logos, what exactly is the relationship between them? The relationship of Jesus to the logos of God can best be described as intimate and prophetic, two important characteristics of the entire Gospel of John. Jesus was conceived in the mind of God “in the beginning,” and was in view when God created the present heavens and earth. God knew His plan, and throughout the Old Testament communicated it through a body of prophetic language that pointed toward Christ’s coming. Jesus refers to this plan in his prayer on the eve of his death:

John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Peter communicates this same truth in his first epistle:

1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)
For he was foreknown before [pro] the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.

John is not propounding a mystical process by which a pre-existent spirit being became clothed in flesh. Rather, it is asserting that the prophetic plan and purpose of God has become a true man, “in the flesh,” and that as the “purpose of the ages,” even creation itself is organized around him. “

"The logos was not “made flesh” through a metaphysical or mystical process by which a pre-existent spirit being transmigrated his eternal consciousness into a temporal human zygote at the moment of conception. The logos was “made flesh” through a process that began when God fulfilled His Word to His people by creating the long awaited Seed of Promise, the seed of the woman, the one who would be just like his Dad, the “chip off the old Rock.”

Ephesians 3:9
And to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

So Christ wasn't existing in heaven for all time but was rather hidden in God to appear at the decreed time as the Last Adam through human genealogy for the salvation and glorification of faithful mankind and his own inimitable inherited exaltation to a remarkable glory,2nd only to his father's!

Did John write the gospel to let us know Jesus preexisted or was the 2nd person of a triune philosophical homoousios (substance)?Apparently not.

John 20:31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

And is calling him the son of God a declaration he's also True God?(John 17:3) Apparently not!

Luke 1:35:And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."

Yes,he's the Son of God because he was conceived in a virgin womb supernaturally and miraculously by God's spirit,of course making him God's unique Son.Who else has ever been?Who else is the fulfillment of all things?Who else is the beginning and end of all God's plans by his admirable faithfulness to his own God which leads to salvation for all who exercise faith in him?Praise the Lord Messiah!For everything he is and for everything he's done to the glory of God and the exaltation of righteous mankind!


  1. Almost every point you made about God's eternal purpose being encapsulated in his mind when he was alone I have pondered. But my take is different in that I believe Jesus is the eldest son of all creation who first issued from that encapsulated eternal purpose of the Spirit in the mind of the Eternal One.

    It is through him whom the Father made the

    ages...."And, “You, Master, did found the

    earth in the beginning and the heavens

    are the work of Your hands.

    11“They shall perish, but You remain

    and they shall all grow old like a


    Col 1;15 who is the likeness of the invisible
    Elohim, the first-born of all creation..."Jesus is the eldest son and likeness of the invisible
    Elohim. Jesus issued from the Spirit in the mind of the invisible
    Elohim before all. And because in Him were created all that
    are in the heavens and that are on earth,
    visible and invisible, whether thrones or
    rulerships or principalities or authorities
    -- all have been created through Him and
    for Him. And He is before all and in Him all

    hold together...."When Jesus was before all in him all held together- who being the brightness of the

    esteem and the exact representation

    of His substance and sustaining all by

    the Word of His power, having made a

    cleansing of our sins through Himself,

    sat down at the right hand of the

    Greatness on high,

    Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn

    into the world, He says, “Let all

    the messengers of Elohim do reverence

    to Him.”...."In this passage the Spirit of the Eternal One is saying that when He again brings the firstborn
    into the world, implying that he was the eldest son of the Father's family in heaven-the family in heaven are his sons the messengers, the spirits, His servants of, flame of fire. Before Jesus became flesh he was rich, yet for our sakes he became poor, that we through his poverty might be rich in his Father's glory, the hope of glory in us, in Christ Jesus.

  2. The 1st Day of Creation

    "The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of G-D moved upon the face of the waters." (Gen 1:2)

    Then G-D spoke HIS Word into being.......

    "Let there be Light"!

    And "There was Light".......

    And such 'Light' was to be, and is, Eternal!

    So Hope is Alive!

    Even though this wicked world begins and ends it's day in darkness it is good to realize that the 1st Day of Creation, although begun midst the darkness, ended in 'Light'!

    And such 'Light' was not the sun, moon or stars for they were not created until the 4th Day.

    G-D's Word "Let there be Light" became "The Light which enlightens every man born into the world" and was "the glory The Messiah had with Our Father before the world began".......

    LIGHT Begot Light.......

    The Messiah, "The Light of the world"(Jn8:12).......

    The Messiah, "The beginning of The Creation of G-D"(Rev1:1, 3:14).......

    The Messiah, "The Son of The Living G-D".......

    And Our Father, HE "created all things by(of, in and thru) The Messiah" (Ep3:9).......

    The 1st Day of Creation.

    "And G-D called The Light, Day, and the darkness HE called night. And the evening(darkness) and the morning(Light) was the 1st day." (Gen 1:5)

    Now if the beginning can not be 'seen' nor understood, then what of the end?

    Confusion would reign! And today confusion does reign midst the religious systems of this world, and especially those who believe in a three headed pagan g-d, for apart from "The Light" there is only darkness, "the blind leading the blind" ;-(

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it's systems of religion "for the WHOLE(not just a portion) world is under the control of the evil one"(1JN5:19) indeed and Truth.......

    Truth IS and IS Forever, a lie is not.......

    Abide in The Truth.......

  3. Hey guys..I really appreciate your insight and objections and the time you've taken here.Though I can understand your views,RZR, on these texts you've provided,having always had the same views,I can't readily discount the Socinian views when I find them to be equally as valid.That is my struggle right now..I will address these points in a future blog..hopefully in a week or so.It will take some time.Elderchild,the genesis account doesn't say the light was Jesus but rather "day".If "day" was a person then who was "night?"It is pure philosophical speculation and inference to read into these texts that Jesus was the day.Jesus became light for us,sure,but that is because he provides eternal life for faithful men by what he has accomplished and reveals his father to the world.I also noticed neither of you addressed the specifics in this blog about the word in John 1:1.Thanks again!

  4. "In the beginning was the word of Elohim and his word was with him in his heart, and the word was Elohim, who spoken into being by his Spirit, his word, who became Spirit Being like the word from his Spirit in his mind of Elohim."

    In the beginning was the Word,
    and the Word was with Elohim, and the
    Word was Elohim..."In the beginning refers to Jesus being the first-born of all that is. He was the beginning of God's all that was with him and there was none else but them. For he is before all and Elohim is before him and all that he made through him.

    He was in the beginning with Elohim.
    All came to be through Him, and
    without Him not even one came to be
    that came to be..."All that is came to be through him and without Him not even one came to be
    that came to be.

    He was in the world, and the world
    came to be through Him, and the world
    did not know Him..."The world-age was made through him by the Spirit of Elohim that proceeds from his mind. From which came to be the word flesh in the world.

    And the Word became flesh and
    pitched His tent among us, and we
    saw His esteem, esteem as of an only
    brought-forth of a father, complete in
    favour and truth.

    Do you know His Name? Who has gone up to the heavens
    and come down?
    Who has gathered the wind
    in His fists?
    Who has bound the waters
    in a garment?
    What is His Name,
    What is His Son’s Name,
    If you know it?

    HWHY founded the earth
    by wisdom;
    He established the heavens
    by understanding;
    By His knowledge the depths
    were broken up
    and clouds drop down dew.

    “When He prepared the heavens,
    I was there,
    When He decreed a vault
    on the face of the deep,
    “When He set the clouds above,
    When He made the fountains
    of the deep strong,
    “When He gave to the sea its limit,
    So that the waters would
    not transgress His command,
    When He decreed the foundations
    of the earth,
    “Then I was beside Him,
    a master workman,
    And I was His delight, day by day
    Rejoicing before Him all the time,

    “For whoever finds me
    shall find life,
    And obtain favour from HWHY,
    “But he who sins against me
    injures himself;
    All who hate me love death!”..."I hear the Spirit of the son of HWHY speaking through these words, it is what he said in the new testament. That he who seeks him, finds him, and fines life in him by his Father's favour. He who sins against him finds only bad things in his life.

  5. Though I appreciate the texts Ricardo and think they're QUITE beautiful and can appreciate your interpretation of them as someone who used to be dogmatic about that same interpretation,even being able to discern no validity in any other,I have since found that the way the Hebrews personified and poeticized the word,wisdom,and Spirit of God doesn't have to dictate that when we spy those words they mean a literal second person by his side.Though Christ encompasses those words on a number of levels,he isn't literally those words and those words can function outside the person of Christ,though he fulfills what they entail by accomplishing what he has and by fulfilling God's plans and prophecies ,as well as revealing God to the world.Though you have given the texts,which,again,are beautiful,you have failed to address how the Socinian interpretation of John 1:1 is impossible.I'm sure you think it isn't correct but you haven't proven that.As for going beyond John 1:1 I will save that for another time when I address the other texts in other blogs hopefully.You are clearly a poetic and thoughtful person,but I fear you may be over-literalizing metaphoric & poetic language.In other words,though Christ is the Word and Wisdom of God for a number of reasons,some of which I've covered here in these blogs,I don't see how that gives us the right to,when we see those words,bring Christ into the picture every time.Those words are usually "its" as opposed to "hes."And though it would be tempting to read our preconceptions and philosophies into the texts of scripture,we must be careful.It is wise to study how the Hebrews poeticized the word of God and such without it having to always be Christ though Christ obviously fulfilled God's greatest "word of life" by making the kingdom and the salvation of faithful mankind possible.In summary,you're ASSUMING the word was a "he."I ,however,don't see the word becoming Jesus till verse 14.

  6. Simply sad for you mg, for it is quite clear that religion has had it's way with you ;-(

    Quite clear that "The Light" was the "Morning" of the 1st Day and was declared to be the "Day" for it is also quite clear that The Messiah, "The Light of the world" was declared to be "The Morning Star(Light)" in Revelations, and was also referred to as "The Day Star(Light)" by Peter.......

    And it is also quite clear that such (Star)Light was Spirit for natural light was not created until the 4th Day.......

    "The Light", "the glory The Messiah had with Our Father before the world began".......

    Hope is you would receive "the love of The Truth" for only then will you see "The Light".......

  7. "John 1:1 according to the Lexicon."

    {In the beginning}---beginning, origin

    {was the Word,}---a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech

    {and the Word}---a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech

    {was with God,}---God, a god

    {and the Word}---a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech

    {was God.}---God, a god

    In the first origin was the word and the word was in the heart of the Father and he was the word who spoke all that is and came to be.

    I have always thought like the mentioned above this is not a new revelation to me.

    John 1:1 is clearly stating an originator-one true life source from whom spawn all that is.

    Ok, I'm kind of confused with your new light about Jesus. Are you telling us that the Eternal One bypassed his first-born of every creature to create all that is?

    If Jesus is the "before" and "means" of all, then why is he according to you the "after" and "lesser" of the invisible creation which first came to be.

    The One who appeared unto Moses in the burning bush was Elohim in his Anointed One, his exact copy-Elohim Like who is far greater then all the other elohim copies of their Father Elohim. It was the Anointed Elohim like of Elohim Father that was seen by Moses. But what did Moses say unto Elohim like; He said, "Please show me your glory." And Elohim like said, "You cannot see my face, for man may not see me and live."

    So was this person the Eternal One? No, all that is can not hold him. From within whom is all, that is projected, came to be, for nothing lives outside of him, so he is greater and bigger then all that is.

  8. Elderchild,angels are morning stars and Jesus being called a Daystar just proves he's our light,not that he was the "light" that had to be separated from darkness.And if "day" is Jesus,who is the "dark" he had to be separated from in the genesis account?I don't appreciate the judgmentalness.Leave that to God.RZR,yes,I am saying that POSSIBLY God alone by his spirit created all things with Christ in mind to save mankind from the fall he foreknew and that Christ is the one through whom God recreates everything.Notice the context in all the NT creation's the new creation,the new kingdom,the new heavens and earth.I've yet to see anyone refute the Socinian(and it's also an ancient one) interpretation of John 1:1 or anyone prove God's word that became flesh was an entity before it became flesh in verse 14.As for the Angel of the Lord,where does the bible say he's Jesus?He's called Yahweh in the tradition of the the Hebrew agency biblical principle because God's name is within him as an agent with God's authority but where does it say he's Jesus?The bible says God didn't speak to us through his Son till he came in the flesh,strongly implying he didn't speak through him in the OT.The author of Hebrews does everything he can to let us know Christ has never been an angel and has been made superior to them as an exalted and glorified man.RZR,what is Christ to you now?Is he a man or an angel?

  9. Also,Elderchild,search 'Did God create the earth before the sun and moon?" on youtube for some insight on the light.

  10. 1Pe 3:18 Because Messiah also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;..."1Cr 15:45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit...See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, as you see that I have." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.-Luk 24:39-40.

    Jhn 20:17 Yeshua said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'...I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Yerushalayim, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn.-Zec 12:10...."Jesus in his glorified state of being is both Spirit{Spiritual} flesh{man}--when he returns for Us-his bride-we will drink with him of the fruit of the vine in memory of him who poured out his precious blood for Us on the tree"....Mat 26:29 But I tell you that I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

    Luk 22:18 for I tell you, I will not drink at all again from the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God comes."

  11. 1Pe 3:19 in which he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noach, while the teivah was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water...and didn't spare the ancient world, but preserved Noach with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly;-2Pe 2:5..."These passages are so easy to understand in that it was the Spirit of the living Christ who was in Noach a preacher of righteousness preaching by the Anointing of Christ Spirit in him to the spirits in prison who were disobedient ungodly souls.
    Jhn 8:57 The Yehudim therefore said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Avraham?" 58 Yeshua said to them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Avraham came into existence, I AM."

    Jhn 8:56 Your father Avraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad." ....The LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and saw that three men stood opposite him. When he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the eretz, and said, "My lord, if now I have found favor in your sight, please don't go away from your servant. Now let a little water be fetched, wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree...."The LORD who appeared unto Avraham was Jesus in human form with his two other servants, his angels in human form too-they three ate and drunk with Avraham plus he washed their feet a sign of humility in Avraham part.

  12. (NRSV)1 Peter 1:11 inquiring about the person or time that the Spirit of Christ within them indicated, when it testified in advance to the sufferings destined for Christ and the subsequent glory.

    You said: The bible says God didn't speak to us through his Son till he came in the flesh,strongly implying he didn't speak through him in the OT....1Pe 1:11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Messiah, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Messiah, and the glories that would follow them...So the Eternal One has always from the beginning used Jesus to work in him according to the will of the Father who spoke to the prophets of old in Christ Jesus, we can't negate Christ office as intermediator-he has always been the middle man between his Father God and creation.

  13. There is a lot of evidence in scripture that refutes the position of Socinian-we can't build a belief system with just one or a few scriptures.
    Jhn 3:17 For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

    1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

    Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    God sent his own son who was at his right hand to become one of us....Jhn 17:5 Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed...."What glory did Jesus have before the world existed? He was head over all of God's creation and still is, for he is before all, and he has the first place in all that the Father created in him unto the glory of the Father. The Father was glorified in his son at the moment of creation.

  14. Would any ordinary angel represent the exact glory of the Father? I don't think so, only an extraordinary person as Jesus in the spirit form and empowered with his Father' glory could be the Angel of the LORD who said unto Moses that he could not behold his face. Is it not written that no man has seen God{YHWH} at any time but the son-Jesus who was at his Father's right hand before he came down to our world and became flesh like one of us.

    1Cr 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Messiah...."So according to this passage the one who followed them was the Messiah their rock who was a strong deliverer who was the Angel of the LORD representing the exact glory of his Father God for no other angel could act as God Almighty himself.

  15. WHO is "The LORD G-D Almighty"?

    WHO did Stephen see standing at the right hand of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE WHO sits on The Throne?

    "But Stephen, being full of The Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into Heaven, and saw The Glory of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and he saw The Messiah standing at the right hand of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.

    And Stephen said, Behold, i see the Heavens opened, and The Son of man standing at the right hand of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......(Acts7:54-56)

    "If you are risen with The Messiah, seek those things which are above, where The Messiah sits at the right hand of The ONE and Only True G-D", Father(Creator) of ALL".......(Col3:1)

    "Who is he that condemns? It is The Messiah that died, yes rather, that is risen again, Who is even at the right hand of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and The Messiah makes intercession for us".......(Rom8:34)

    "Looking unto The Messiah, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of The Throne of The ONE and Only True G-D", Father(Creator) of ALL".......(Heb12:2)

    WHO IS "The LORD G-D Almighty"?

    HE WHO IS The ONE and ONLY TRUE G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    Hopefully, "all men would see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE WHO CREATED ALL THINGS by The Messiah".......(Eph 3:9)"

    Quite clear that The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL created all things by The Messiah.......

    "WHO IS The LORD G-D Almighty?"

    Rev 4:8 through Rev 5:13

    8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, Holy, Holy, LORD G-D Almighty, WHO WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME.

    9 And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to HIM that sat on the throne, HE WHO Lives for Ever and Ever.


    The Messiah died and The LORD G-D Almighty raised Him from among the dead.......


    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before HIM that sat on the throne, and worship HIM WHO Lives for Ever and Ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    11 Thou art worthy, O LORD G-D, to receive Glory and Honor and Power: for YOU have created all things, and for YOUR pleasure they are and were created.


    The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE WHO created all things by, of and through The Messiah...... The Messiah was "The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......


    Rev 5:1-13

    1 And I saw in the right hand of HIM that sat on The Throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.


    Quite clear that The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL had "a book in HIS right hand".......


  16. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?"

    3 And no man in Heaven, or in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, or able to look therein.

    4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look therein.

    5 And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, The Lion of The Tribe of Judah, The Root of David, has prevailed and can open the book, and can loose the seven seals thereof.


    The Lion of The Tribe of Judah, The Root of David, is none other than The Messiah.......


    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL sent forth into all the earth."


    A Lamb, The Messiah "The Lamb of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL", He Who gave His Life that i might receive Life.......


    7 And He(The Lamb) came and took the book out of the right hand of HIM(The ONE and Only True G-D, Father[Creator] of ALL) that sat upon the throne.


    The Messiah, The Lamb of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, took the book from His G-D and Father, HE WHO sat upon the throne, HE WHO IS The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......


    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.


    Once again The Messiah, "The Lamb of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......


    9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and you have redeemed us unto The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL by Thy blood, out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


    The Messiah was worthy for He sought only to do The Will of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, He desired to do The Will of His G-D and Father above all else, even unto the death.......


  17. 10 And have made us unto Our G-D(HE WHO is The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL) kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is The Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.


    Worthy is The Messiah, "The Lamb of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......


    13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto HIM(The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL) that sits upon the throne, and unto The Lamb for ever and ever.


    The Messiah, "The Lamb of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL".......


    "WHO is The LORD G-D Almighty?"

    HE WHO IS The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

    The Messiah testified of, "The Only True G-D".......

    Paul testified of "ONE G-D, Father of ALL".......

    There is Only ONE True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE IS The
    G-D and Father(Creator) of The Messiah and His brethren.......

    Paul testified, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the
    mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in G-D,
    WHO CREATED ALL things by The Messiah".......(Eph3:9)

    Simply, The Messiah was, is, and always will be "The Son of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL", HE WHO IS "The LORD G-D Almighty".......

    Those who have experienced The Miracle that is receiving "the love of The Truth" also desire that which The Messiah desired above all else:

    "Father, not my will, But THY Will Be Done".......

    And as "The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL sent The Messiah, so The Messiah sends His Brethren".......

    So while there is breath(spirit) there is hope!

    For Miracles do happen.......

    Hope is that you have experienced The Miracle that is receiving "the love of The Truth".......

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE(not just a portion) world is under the control of the evil one"(1JN5:19) indeed and Truth.......

    Truth IS and IS Forever.......

  18. I'm sorry guys but this blog is about JOHN 1:1.I can only assume your jumping all over scripture means you have no refutation of the Socinian interpretation of it.If you think all these other texts are,you're mistaken.I have no idea how Jesus in heaven on a throne proves he was preexistent.OR why RZR thinks I built my belief system on a "few texts."Although that seems to be what you're doing since you've given me every single text that supposedly proves your view without refuting what's presented in this blog.There are also valid alt. interpretations to those too I will get to eventually.If you guys cannot address John 1:1 specifically,your comments here are not valid to the blog.

  19. The testimony of John 1:1-5 bears witness to The Messiah being "The Light" begotten by Our Father the 1st Day of Creation.

    (John 1:1) "In the beginning was The Word(Logos), and The Word was with G-D, and The Word was G-D."
    ("In the beginning was The Word(Logos)")

    The 1st Day of Creation was the beginning.

    And "In the beginning" G-D(Creator)WAS and HE spoke The(HIS)Word "Let There Be Light" and "There was Light"!

    ("And The Word(Logos) was with G-D")

    G-D spoke The(HIS)Word "Let There Be Light" and The Word "Let There Be Light" became "Light" and "was with G-D", HE WHO IS LIGHT!

    ("And The Word was G-D")

    G-D spoke The Word "Let There Be Light", "The(HIS)Word was G-D" and became Light!

    LIGHT Begot Light!

    The Messiah, "The True Light which enlightens every man born into this world."(John 1:9)

    The Messiah, "The beginning of The Creation of G-D(Our Father)!"(Rev3:14)

    So it is that The Messiah, begotten of Our Father, testified "The Father is Greater than I."(John 14:28)

    And as Paul testified, "The HEAD of The Messiah is G-D(Our Father)"!(1Cor11:3)

    "The Light", "the glory The Messiah had with Our Father before the world began."(John 17:5)
    (John 1:2-5) "The same was in the beginning with G-D. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was Life; and The Life was The Light of men. And The Light(The Messiah)shinned midst the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

    "To make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning (as in John 1:2) of the world has been hid in G-D, HE WHO Created all things by The Messiah(The(HIS)Word "Let There Be Light")."(Eph 3:9)

    Our Father(Creator)created "all things" by The Messiah(The(HIS)Word "Let There Be Light").
    (John 1:14) "And The(HIS)Word("Let There Be Light") was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of The Father, full of Grace and Truth."

    "The Light", "the glory The Messiah had with Our Father before the world began."(John 17:5)

    Father Help! and HE does.......

  20. As I've said,it is philosophical conjecture to call the "light" of Genesis Jesus Christ even though Jesus,as well as God,as well as disciples and angels could all be called lights for many reasons.Again,who was "darkness" that Jesus had to be separated from?The bible also says the Lamb was slain before the world's foundation and that we had glory then too.It is a peculiar Hebrew way of speaking about things foreordained as having already happened if it was in the mind and decree of God.Because God sees things that aren't yet as though they are,understandably.I can understand your taking texts here and there that seem to correlate and coming up with your view,but I don't think it's necessarily the right one.Still searching that out.

  21. And you have to answer who darkness was before your claim that light was a person is to be taken seriously.They had to be separated,after all.

  22. I think your problem with this view I find logical and possible is that you think when you see light,word,wisdom etc that it has to be Jesus.It doesn't even though he can be called those thing on occasion.The Hebrews poeticized these things.And Jesus fulfilled all things.

  23. Multitudes receive and believe in natural and philosophical "light", and so it is that The Spiritual Light of Truth can not shine within their being and overcome the darkness that is this wicked, evil world.......

    Mostly they remain deceived because they "love this world and it's things" and "their own life(self) in it" ;-(

    Braindirtyed to the utmost they yet follow "the g-d of this world" on "the broad way to destruction" for they received not "the love of The Truth" ;-(

    "Not every one that says unto Me, Master, Master, shall enter into The Kingdom of Heaven(G-D), only the ones who do The Will of My Father which is in Heaven will enter in."
    You wrote: "As I've said,it is philosophical conjecture to call the "light" of Genesis 'jesus christ' even though 'jesus',as well as G-d,as well as disciples and angels could all be called lights for many reasons" ;-(

    Exactly, they could be called Light because that which IS Spirit IS Light....... And the disciples of The Messiah most definitely are "children of Light".......

    As for The Messiah, it is quite clear that "The Light" was "the glory He had with Our Father before the world began".......

    LIGHT Begot Light!

    And Our Father(Creator) created all things of, by and thru The Light(The Messiah)" and HE declared HIS Creation was GOOD"!
    You wrote, "Again, who was "darkness" that 'jesus' had to be separated from?"

    "G-D IS LIGHT, and in HIM is no darkness at all."

    Simply, Good(Light) was not intended to be intermingled with that which is not good(evil,darkness).......

    Would not HIS Creation which is GOOD(Light) have naught to do with(be separate from) that which is not good(darkness)?

    Sadly eve allowed darkness(evil, that which is not good) to enter in ;-(

    Of course those who abide in the darkness that is this wicked, evil world("the yellow submarine" comes to mind) prefer the darkness ;-(

    Simply, darkness is the absense of The LIGHT that is The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator)of ALL.......

    And the mutitudes choose to "abide in darkness" ;-(
    You wrote, "The bible also says the Lamb was slain before the world's foundation and that we had glory then too."

    "The Lamb was slain"(in other words, such had to be) because eve's transgression was the foundation on which the world began.

    And the worldly religious systems all of which are of "the author of confusion" seek to intermingle light midst the darkness that is his wicked evil world :-(

    So it is that darkness rules midst the religious systems of this world for "The Light of Truth" can not abide in the lies of darkness and so it is that all "children of Light" take heed unto The Call to:

    "Come Out of her, MY people"!

    They "Come Out" of this wicked world and it's systems of religion.......

    And they realize Faith will not create a religion.......

    For what are the "Brothers and Sisters" of The Messiah if not Family?

    Simply, Faith is Family!

    Father Help! and HE does.......

  24. You wrote, "I can understand your taking texts here and there that seem to correlate and coming up with your view,but I don't think it's necessarily the right one. Still searching that out."

    Receiving "the love of The Truth" does not mean one receives ALL Truth at that moment in time.......

    Babes begin with "the sincere milk of The Word" of Truth and sadly multitudes of babes find such unpalatable so they do not "continue in the Faith" and begin starving unto the death ;-(

    And then there are those who continue to "grow in Grace" as they receive of "the strong meat" that allows them to "see" ever more clearly how "poor and needy" they truly are.......

    "i can do NOTHING of mine own self"!

    Truly, the "I(self,ego)" must die.......

    Father Help! and HE does.......