My brief questions about these passages are in parentheses.And the questions are for those who think Yahushua was named Word and Wisdom and that he created for the father.
Job 9:8 who alone stretched out the heavens
and trampled the waves of the sea;(Alone with another named Wisdom?)
Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?(Yahushua laid the foundation of the earth as well?)
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?(Yahushua did?)
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9 when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,(Yahushua did it for me?)
10 and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?
Isaiah 44:24: Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,(Yahushua was with him and did the work?)
Psalm 8:3 When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,(by the spirit named Word's fingers?)
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.(Yahushua's handiwork?)
Psalm 95:5 The sea is his, for he made it,
and his hands formed the dry land.(Yahushua's hands formed the dry land?)
2 Kings 19:15: And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.(You made heaven and earth by a spirit creature named Wisdom?)
Jeremiah 27:5: “It is I who by my great power and my outstretched arm have made the earth, with the men and animals that are on the earth, and I give it to whomever it seems right to me.(And the arm is named Word?)
Isaiah 45:12: I made the earth
and created man on it;...18 For thus says the Lord,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it empty,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.(Well,there is one other who created?)
Malachi 2:10: Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? (One God and One Lord created us?)
Mark 10:6: But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’(said Yahushua,the one who REALLY made them male and female?)
Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be...(from the beginning of creation that Yahushua created?)
Acts 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,(no ,his servant Yahushua did with help from his father?)
Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.(Really Messiah did?) 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed;(the one who as a spirit really created for the father?) and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”(The first Adam's creator was the Last Adam who came after him and then died for 3 days?)
1 Timothy 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,(Yahushua gave life to all things in Genesis?)
Hebrews 2:10: For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.(the founder of their salvation as the REAL cause of their existence?)
Hebrews 11:3: By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.(and this word was a spirit being?)
Psalm 33:6:By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
and by the breath of his mouth all their host.(this word was a spirit creature?Or are there two words?From the lips and then *also* a person?)
Genesis 1:1: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.(through a spirit creature named Word?)3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. .(God spoke but that wasn't the MAIN word?).6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” .(God spoke again but his word was a spirit creature?).9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so(God spoke but that's not the main word here,correct?). ..11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. (This word from his lips is just one of the words there,right?The other is named Word and is creating for him?) ..14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years.(God spoke again!And the word by which he created is from his lips and *also* from someone named Word?).
Proverbs 3:19: The Lord by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;(wisdom is a spirit creature but understanding isn't?)
Psalm 104:24: O Lord, how manifold are your works!
In wisdom have you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.(Two wisdoms?One of God's & another spirit named just that?)
Psalm 136:5: to him who by understanding made the heavens,
for his steadfast love endures forever;(And I suppose Yahushua was a spirit named Understanding too?)
Jeremiah 10:12: It is he who made the earth by his power,
who established the world by his wisdom,
and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.(Wisdom the spirit in addition to the wisdom & understanding of God?)
Jeremiah 51:15 “It is he who made the earth by his power,
who established the world by his wisdom,
and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.(Established the world by Wisdom the spirit creature?)
Hebrews 4:4:"And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."(Why didn't Word the spirit rest?)
The Wisdom of Solomon 9:1 O God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things with thy word,2 And ordained man through thy wisdom, that he should have dominion over the creatures which thou hast made 3 And order the world according to equity and righteousness, and execute judgment with an upright heart: (If Wisdom is Yahushua,who is equity and righteousness?)
How was Yahushua the Wisdom of God?
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God *decreed* before the ages for our glory.
So he's the decreed wisdom,not a spirit named Wisdom.
1 Corinthians 1:24:but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Howso?As spirit entity?OR:
1 Corinthians 1:30:It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has ***become*** for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
With the NT creation passages that say God created through Christ,there must be a few things we keep in mind:
1.The milk of the word,like that expounded above
2.The context of a new creation generally
3.that even **if** there are allusions to the old creation that not only can words like "dia"(through,by,for the sake of,in etc.) be translated in a NUMBER of ways,but also that the Hebrews sometimes wrote in a highly poetic fashion.Though I don't necessarily always agree with them,scholars like James Dunn say that whatever is said of the father's word and wisdom in the OT can be applied to Christ in the new,not absolutely literally but rather poetically.Why?Because he **came to** embody the divine mind(the wisdom of the father as well as the word that symbolized his plan to give life to mankind in Christ) by which all things were created.I don't know if we necessarily have to see the NT creation passages in this poetic light though given the forward thinking kingdom contexts.
Isaiah 51:16 says:"I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'
This is future thinking..as one commentary states:
"It refers to the restoration of the Jews to their own land; to the re-establishment of religion there; to the introduction of the new economy under the Messiah, and to all the great changes which would be consequent on that. This is compared with the work of forming the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth. It would require almighty power; and it would produce so great changes, that it might be compared to the work of creating the universe out of nothing. Probably also the idea is included here that stability would be given to the true religion by what God was about to do permanency that might be compared with the firmness and duration of the heavens and the earth."~Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Could the proper mindset be the following,even IF there are poetic allusions to the old creation in a few passages:
“…if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17).
“…in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body” ( Col. 1:17).
· “…to head up all things in Christ things upon the heavens and things upon the earth; in him, in whom also we were assigned” (Eph. 1:10, 11KIT).
“For in Christ Jesus…a new creation” (Gal. 6:15).
“For we are the product of His work and were created in Christ Jesus ”(Eph. 2:10).
Notice a theme?
And let's pretend there are no kingdom contexts..no new creation(again,I'm pretending)and that everything in the New Testament about the creation has to do with Genesis...then creating everything *in* or *for the sake of*(perfectly apropos definitions of dia,the preposition used in the passages in question that Arians and trinitarians commonly use to try and prove Christ created for God) Christ still would by no means demand a pre-existence.If I were to build a nursery and a home for the sake of,and with a yet to be born baby at the center of it,as the focus of it,as the reason for it,would that baby have to be there while I did?And what would you think if the baby was instead a grown man and I told him to build a home with a nursery yet claimed I built that home and nursery absolutely alone,wouldn't that seem odd?
It really doesn't matter how much sophistry you incorporate in attempting to justify a view that Yahushua,in Genesis,created heaven and earth,man and woman,etc..To say so blatantly contradicts a number of passages.It does no good pretending either that the Hebrews never used poetic hyperbole,both in the new and OT.You can try to say,like I used to as an Arian,that God can say he does anything alone even if he uses another,but you're still going to need to deal with the fact that this supposed other one is not mentioned in the key OT creation passages ANYWHERE.(to read him into them is almost as far fetched as reading a hypostatic union into everything Christ said,butchering plain language with unwarranted inference ultimately while refusing to consider valid & logical alternative interpretations for ambiguous passages that you assume give you cause)Also keep in mind the context,generally speaking,in the NT is a new creation.Sorry.And that even if the old creation is alluded to,the preposition"dia" can mean "in" or "for the sake of."Would it really be so shocking for God to create everything(even in Genesis) in or for the sake of the Lamb that would redeem the world considering he's a God who:
1.Sees the end from the very beginning (Isaiah 46:10)
2.Sees things that aren't as though they are.(Rom. 4:17)
Considering all things,(like Hebrew poetic hyperbole according to scholars like James Dunn,the new creation context that's glaring,the many possible ways to interpret words like dia)I'm left with the fact that I should take no dogmatic stance on the intention of the bible authors with some of the NT creation passages.What I cannot in good conscience do however is read them in such a way so as to contradict and make moot of the milk God establishes left and right.
Don't forget the milk(of the word).It does the body(of Christ) good.:)
I have several blogs on texts like Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:10 if you're interested.Look to the right under "trinity texts" and explore away.Please,if you just skimmed or rapidly read the above Genesis creation passages,go back and read them very carefully.With no inference,what do they suggest?With no inference,are the word and wisdom of God by which he created a spirit creature?Read them again.You may say there are two words & two wisdoms (God's and then the spirit entity that became Christ),but I maintain that logically and biblically speaking,the plain texts espoused above about God creating in his word and wisdom actually define what they *really* are,no added inference needed at all.And that when poetic books like Proverbs personify God's wisdom, to literalize it would be a serious mistake.
I have also been told by many that passages like Colossians 1:16 & Hebrews 1:10 don't have a kingdom new creation context.Umm,only if you don't read around them.