I know Christology is something I dwell on a lot now,which some people may find peculiar if they think they already have the truth wholeheartedly,no need for questioning.I think what a lot of people do though when exegeting scripture is divorce not only the historical context and sheer reason from their interpretations but also the Hebrew thought of the time and how they used language and concepts from their exegesis.(Not the Hebrew thought that assumed Christ should be killed but the Hebrew thought forms like Jesus and his disciples held) .When I thought Christ preexisted his birth,I never even thought that this might cause a controversy every bit as big as God being three people would have.The thing is..the controversy this equally probably would have caused is just as absent from the bible.No councils to discuss how the man Messiah Jesus was also an archangel,a Godman,or anything else at all.This reasonably leads me to believe that the texts that seem to suggest preexistence and that Christ was more(in ontology) than the perfect and preeminently exalted Messiah,Lord,king,and MAN have alternative interpretations in their Hebrew context that must be at least considered.I plan on purchasing "Christology in the Making" by James Dunn because from a preview on line it seems he goes in depth with Wisdom Christology which is exactly what someone with my former "Arian" view needs to diligently consider when contemplating that his/her view may in fact be a deception in my opinion not exactly on par with the trinitarian one but still egregious if in fact wrong.
One must always consider the bible's implicit revelations and the overwhelming bulk of it's suggestions from cover to cover as well while he is plucking texts here and there trying to make sense of them.(those plucked in the major minority that may seem to indicate something that is foreign to the rest of the Word.)This is what I wasn't doing before,though I didn't recognize it.When we go on carrying on a traditional(what may very well be a lie) God allows an operation of error because we believe fairy tales and ear ticklers that originated quite often in Hellenism,the downfall of truth in Christianity in many ways.How can God help if we're dead set on what we believe that may be a lie?How can God humble and teach us if we haughtily carry our theological conclusions around with clenched fists,closed eyes,and unfortunate determination of their (possibly imagined) inviolable accuracy?
The fact is,throughout the entire OT there is simply zero indication that Yahweh our Most High God planned on sending his special angel who had his name in him(because he was his rep on earth as Yah can't be seen) or anyone else to become something/someone else.Not only would we have to imagine/pretend it's there but we would also have to assume God created one singular individual to become someone else in nature entirely,when this seems to be something he detests given his reaction to his angelic sons materializing as "men" and having Nephilim offspring with genuinely human women in Genesis.It is in fact the pagans who believe,who teach,that divine gods who aren't human descend and become human to dwell among us.One must at least consider that the doctrines he holds dear may have a pagan origin given that Satan is a roaring incorrigible powerful lion tragically deceiving left and right,and not just within "cults."No one is immune!I haven't been immune and I don't claim to be now.I have been UNBELIEVABLY deceived on the simplest of scriptural points on a number of occasions.This is where my conscience kicks in and asks me if sharing my reasoning here is wise,given that I've preached untruths to people in the past.Then I tell myself that it's ok to share my journey as a Christian while being cautious not to teach dogmatisms to people with MY fists clenched,with MY eyes closed.I'm only doing what I naturally feel led to do.Preach Christ(who he actually is is of remarkable importance) and his kingdom(what it actually is is of remarkable importance.The orthodox belief that we fly away to heaven when we die divorces scripture from what it tries to convey from cover to cover!) while refining the fine points as I learn and grow.
Another point of consideration for me came when I was contemplating how I was proclaiming to others that trinitarian fruit(especially in the past!) has led to horrendous unimaginable inexcusable horrors like burning people alive in torture just because they wouldn't admit Jesus was the same God his own God is!The bible says you shall know them by their fruit,so it was apparent to me that the lie that produced THIS kind of fruit was not one I was willing to adopt!(needless to say,I think the trinity is EASILY disprovable outside this fact)..But what I wasn't considering is that "Arian" fruit is similarly philosophical,mystical,perhaps even Gnostic and has ALSO led to murders,though not as many to be sure!Still yet,what right did I have telling anyone a doctrine that inspires murder is from Satan while the Arian fruits aren't always the peachiest either.The Arian fruit may be the lesser evil to be sure but a lesser evil isn't good enough.I started thinking perhaps a doctrine that didn't inspire people to murder or banish others or to torture them may be the correct one.I know someone could easily use the reasoning point that Christianity has produced some terrible fruits but that we can't judge Christianity by that!What I can do though is reason that the KIND or BRAND of Christianity that produced those fruits is rotten and not my Lord's kind and brand.
I guess I'll end this blog entry by quoting someone who I think was one of the forerunners of both the Arian and the trinitarian view,as I can't dogmatically conclude he was either given that he applied Proverbs 8 to Jesus and said Jesus was "created."He at the same time said God became a man left and right,so I don't know what he believed.If I had to guess,I'd say he was an Arian who understood others besides God could properly be termed "God" as agents,representatives,and people afforded might and power BY the Most High one.He called Jesus "another god"..something no modern day trinitarian would ever do.At least not those with a more studied indoctrination of their own errors.Isn't it amazing how the trinity has "developed" vastly differently from even their own theological forefathers conclusions and ways of using language and concepts to describe it?From this alone we can conclude we have a "different doctrine" on our hands.I'm sure trinitarians would say a "refined" one..but from my experience they will say just about anything to preserve and defend their tradition and even their modern way of using blatantly Hellenistic language to define God.
Anyway,I digress.I have been accused by more than a few trinitarians since I said I don't think Jesus preexisted anymore of adopting a belief that originated in the 1500's!Thus my quote from Justin Martyr here from his Dialogue with Trypho ch. 48:
"Now assuredly, Trypho," I continued," [the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin. But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and [nothing more] is proved [than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends," I said, "of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have [now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself."
Now THIS is significant.Why?Because Martyr admits(his writings dated from 150-160 C.E long before all the Nicene hullabaloo)that MOST of those who shared his belief that Jesus is the Christ(yes,Christians) DIDN'T believe Jesus preexisted,but that he was simply the MAN Jesus Christ.(a "man of men"1 Tim 2:5,Acts 17:31)Though he disagrees with them,not only did he admit most Christians held to a non-preexistent Christ,(and by reason a non-triune God) LONG before Nicea,but ALSO that he couldn't "prove" a preexistence.Interesting.And DEFINITELY significant considering the date of this writing and false claims about the "Socinian" view being absent in early Christianity.In Martyr's time,not only was it A "view" but it apparently was the MAJORITY one.Come to think of it,if Justin thought there was a POSSIBILITY he couldn't prove Christ preexisted then no way was he trinitarian.Because what Christian in the world would say they couldn't necessarily scripturally prove Yahweh himself existed before Jesus's birth?None.Justin was an Arian.That's my conclusion and I'm sticking to it.
Tuesday, August 31, 2010
Monday, August 23, 2010
Responses to email concerns about my Socinian Christology..Did Jesus pre-exist?
This is part of a couple mails I sent to people with an Arian Christology(in that they think Christ preexisted without having to hold to every belief Arius had,as no one is sure of that since his writings were burned)One thing I've learned is that those with an "Arian" type Christology disagree amongst themselves who Jesus was before he came here and who he is now.As I've said before,to me this is a red flag.
In response to one guy's assertion that Christ was raised a life giving spirit(1 Cor. 15:45) and that this somehow proves he isn't a glorified man(Acts 17:31,1 Tim 2:5):
You say you think Jesus was raised a spirit..I do too..but in what respect?The answer is in the context.A LIFE GIVER,a spiritualized BODY(verse 44).In this respect is he a pneuma..encompassing what the holy spirit accomplishes.The life and spirit he is filled to the tip top with BODILY(Colossians 2:9..correct?) gives life to the world.Like soul,I am assuming "spirit" can either refer to the life of a person or the entire person.I could be called a soul,a spirit(though not in the same respect as Yahshua as lifegiver!),or a body.Also,as a reasoning point..God is love.Does this mean God is LITERALLY the virtue love or that he is so full of it's power that he can be called love?Clearly the context of 1 Corinthians 15:35-54 is all about BODIES,perishable and corruptible ones being distinguished from imperishable,immortal,and incorruptible spiritual ones.Nothing in this chapter about disembodiment unless you simply read the text you're using without context.Jesus said after he was raised that he was not a spirit..but that he had flesh and bone..like we will have at the resurrection.His body was raised and made so new as to be almost unrecognizable I'm sure,just like ours will be.(1 Cor. 15:44,53)Yahshua's resurrected life giving spiritual body is being emphasized against the first Adam's that didn't have that life giving power,that same spirit."Pneuma" here simply means lifegiver.The stone was rolled away by a real corporeal flesh body/person.Was Christ trying to fool everyone by saying he wasn't a spirit and doing things like rolling a stone away so his body could pass?(Luke 24:39,Mark 16:4)
In response to someone using Hebrews 1:3,which says:"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature":
You also seem to think Jesus being the copy and imprint of God means he has to be the same substance,made of the same stuff.In a respect he is in that he has so much of God's spirit that he is.(John 3:34)However,this doesn't eradicate the fact that this spirit dwells in him in bodily form.(Col 2:9)Charakter(the greek word for express image) would certainly connote that Yahshua is just like his father.But let's pretend I was a spirit no one could see and I worked through another who people COULD see as my representative and viceregent,that representative could be said to be my express image if I had the power to fill them bodily with something called holy spirit by which I perform through others my will.He or she would be my copy in that he said and did what I would,had the same personality,and conformed to my will.Hupostasis(greek for nature or person) can mean person..now to be the exact representative of someone's person or nature would be easy for Yahshua because God works through him and he is that one's image.(Acts 2:22,John 10:25,Colossians 1:15)So full,again,of Yahweh's spirit(John 3:34),that he exactly does and says what Yahweh would say and do.(John 5:30,12:49)Does this mean he doesn't have the fullness corporeally?Of course not.The bible says he does.(Colossians 2:9)And Jesus himself testified to being raised bodily in the flesh.(John 2:19-21,1 John 4:3,Luke 24:39)The bible still calls Jesus a corporeal man,glorified and exalted beyond match,but it says what it says(Acts 17:31,1 Tim. 2:5).There is no grander testimony to God's will and personality and nature than Yahshua the Messiah.
In response to a guy saying he doesn't know what Jesus was in his preexistent form but knows he was called "Word":
As for Jesus supposedly being a preexistent being named "Word"..this is foreign to the bible upon thoughtful examination.It was the word from Yahweh's MOUTH that he created by(Psalm 33:6)..that same word,encompassing Yahweh's self expression,plans,and creative will(Isaiah 55:11,Revelation 4:11),became flesh in John 1:14 when Yahshua fulfilled God's prophecies,greatest plans,and creative will.All things were created in Yahshua as God foreknew his role as the sustainer of all things by means of his obedience,death,resurrection,and redemptive power.(Heb. 1:3,Ephesians 1:9, 10, 20-23, 2:10, 15 )God knew his desired will & creation could never be ultimately realized,fulfilled,or sustained without the Son that was slain from the foundation of the world(Rev. 13:8) in God's foreknowledge and plans.(1 Peter 1:20)In this respect,the original creation was made in Christ.And in a more literal capacity,the new creation is brought about by Yahshua as master and Lord and king,heir of all things,through whom God gives life to the world.(2 Cor. 5:17, 18,1 John 1:2,2:24,25)If it was the word from God's mouth that he created by,why would this suggest to you that a person named Word was next to him creating for him?Yahshua and the apostles only ever spoke of Yahweh their God and father resting on the 7th day and creating in genesis.(Heb 4:3,4)Why would they not mention Jesus was there helping as agent?That would be a serious point to omit.
HE who created them from the beginning(Matt. 19:4)
the creation which GOD created(Mark 13:19).
appointed him (Yahshua)over the works of Your (Yahweh's)hands (Heb. 2:7)
And finally in response to a couple people who have accused me of denigrating my Lord and master:
Yahshua is my king,Lord,savior,Messiah,mediator,father,brother..the love of my life,what God intended for men to be.The forerunner and firstborn of many brothers .God has given him the spirit fully to make all the righteous anew in his image.My intercessor,my glory,my redeemer,my hope ,my way,truth and life.If that's nothing special,then the bible doesn't think Yahshua is special.If that's a denigration,then we should all be so blessed to be denigrated.
What's so ironic is that Yahshua and others of the earliest times of Christianity were persecuted and hated for believing a MAN,as opposed to God,a godman ,or some literally ancient being,could be so glorified,gifted,and loved by Yahweh.That he could be Lord and king of all things,could be extolled to the inimitable position Christ now possesses by the love and generosity of Yahweh and not because of some "nature" or "age."(Luke 3:22,Phil. 2:6-11,Heb. 1:9)But that would be the case nevertheless according to my understanding.Is history repeating itself?People are STILL offended when you say Yahshua was and is still a man,without adding other natures to make him worthy of the titles and positions he holds..Greater than any other in a million respects,but nevertheless,the Last Adam.He is Lord and king and lifegiver to be sure,but all granted by Yahweh for this to be so.Why CAN'T Yah give this to the genuine flesh Last Adam,as opposed to an archangel,a spirit creature who's "old enough" or another supposed member of his "being" as an excuse for this functional equality and exaltation?Could it be our traditions that make us think this notion is somehow repelling?And not scripture itself?God is love..Yahshua deserves that love..And we are made by Yahweh in Yahshua,who is our lifegiver by means of what he's accomplished and been given,as opposed to lifegiver literally by hand.We are given life in and through him.It's incredible in the most poignant way imaginable.Praise Yahweh and Yahshua!
In response to one guy's assertion that Christ was raised a life giving spirit(1 Cor. 15:45) and that this somehow proves he isn't a glorified man(Acts 17:31,1 Tim 2:5):
You say you think Jesus was raised a spirit..I do too..but in what respect?The answer is in the context.A LIFE GIVER,a spiritualized BODY(verse 44).In this respect is he a pneuma..encompassing what the holy spirit accomplishes.The life and spirit he is filled to the tip top with BODILY(Colossians 2:9..correct?) gives life to the world.Like soul,I am assuming "spirit" can either refer to the life of a person or the entire person.I could be called a soul,a spirit(though not in the same respect as Yahshua as lifegiver!),or a body.Also,as a reasoning point..God is love.Does this mean God is LITERALLY the virtue love or that he is so full of it's power that he can be called love?Clearly the context of 1 Corinthians 15:35-54 is all about BODIES,perishable and corruptible ones being distinguished from imperishable,immortal,and incorruptible spiritual ones.Nothing in this chapter about disembodiment unless you simply read the text you're using without context.Jesus said after he was raised that he was not a spirit..but that he had flesh and bone..like we will have at the resurrection.His body was raised and made so new as to be almost unrecognizable I'm sure,just like ours will be.(1 Cor. 15:44,53)Yahshua's resurrected life giving spiritual body is being emphasized against the first Adam's that didn't have that life giving power,that same spirit."Pneuma" here simply means lifegiver.The stone was rolled away by a real corporeal flesh body/person.Was Christ trying to fool everyone by saying he wasn't a spirit and doing things like rolling a stone away so his body could pass?(Luke 24:39,Mark 16:4)
In response to someone using Hebrews 1:3,which says:"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature":
You also seem to think Jesus being the copy and imprint of God means he has to be the same substance,made of the same stuff.In a respect he is in that he has so much of God's spirit that he is.(John 3:34)However,this doesn't eradicate the fact that this spirit dwells in him in bodily form.(Col 2:9)Charakter(the greek word for express image) would certainly connote that Yahshua is just like his father.But let's pretend I was a spirit no one could see and I worked through another who people COULD see as my representative and viceregent,that representative could be said to be my express image if I had the power to fill them bodily with something called holy spirit by which I perform through others my will.He or she would be my copy in that he said and did what I would,had the same personality,and conformed to my will.Hupostasis(greek for nature or person) can mean person..now to be the exact representative of someone's person or nature would be easy for Yahshua because God works through him and he is that one's image.(Acts 2:22,John 10:25,Colossians 1:15)So full,again,of Yahweh's spirit(John 3:34),that he exactly does and says what Yahweh would say and do.(John 5:30,12:49)Does this mean he doesn't have the fullness corporeally?Of course not.The bible says he does.(Colossians 2:9)And Jesus himself testified to being raised bodily in the flesh.(John 2:19-21,1 John 4:3,Luke 24:39)The bible still calls Jesus a corporeal man,glorified and exalted beyond match,but it says what it says(Acts 17:31,1 Tim. 2:5).There is no grander testimony to God's will and personality and nature than Yahshua the Messiah.
In response to a guy saying he doesn't know what Jesus was in his preexistent form but knows he was called "Word":
As for Jesus supposedly being a preexistent being named "Word"..this is foreign to the bible upon thoughtful examination.It was the word from Yahweh's MOUTH that he created by(Psalm 33:6)..that same word,encompassing Yahweh's self expression,plans,and creative will(Isaiah 55:11,Revelation 4:11),became flesh in John 1:14 when Yahshua fulfilled God's prophecies,greatest plans,and creative will.All things were created in Yahshua as God foreknew his role as the sustainer of all things by means of his obedience,death,resurrection,and redemptive power.(Heb. 1:3,Ephesians 1:9, 10, 20-23, 2:10, 15 )God knew his desired will & creation could never be ultimately realized,fulfilled,or sustained without the Son that was slain from the foundation of the world(Rev. 13:8) in God's foreknowledge and plans.(1 Peter 1:20)In this respect,the original creation was made in Christ.And in a more literal capacity,the new creation is brought about by Yahshua as master and Lord and king,heir of all things,through whom God gives life to the world.(2 Cor. 5:17, 18,1 John 1:2,2:24,25)If it was the word from God's mouth that he created by,why would this suggest to you that a person named Word was next to him creating for him?Yahshua and the apostles only ever spoke of Yahweh their God and father resting on the 7th day and creating in genesis.(Heb 4:3,4)Why would they not mention Jesus was there helping as agent?That would be a serious point to omit.
HE who created them from the beginning(Matt. 19:4)
the creation which GOD created(Mark 13:19).
appointed him (Yahshua)over the works of Your (Yahweh's)hands (Heb. 2:7)
And finally in response to a couple people who have accused me of denigrating my Lord and master:
Yahshua is my king,Lord,savior,Messiah,mediator,father,brother..the love of my life,what God intended for men to be.The forerunner and firstborn of many brothers .God has given him the spirit fully to make all the righteous anew in his image.My intercessor,my glory,my redeemer,my hope ,my way,truth and life.If that's nothing special,then the bible doesn't think Yahshua is special.If that's a denigration,then we should all be so blessed to be denigrated.
What's so ironic is that Yahshua and others of the earliest times of Christianity were persecuted and hated for believing a MAN,as opposed to God,a godman ,or some literally ancient being,could be so glorified,gifted,and loved by Yahweh.That he could be Lord and king of all things,could be extolled to the inimitable position Christ now possesses by the love and generosity of Yahweh and not because of some "nature" or "age."(Luke 3:22,Phil. 2:6-11,Heb. 1:9)But that would be the case nevertheless according to my understanding.Is history repeating itself?People are STILL offended when you say Yahshua was and is still a man,without adding other natures to make him worthy of the titles and positions he holds..Greater than any other in a million respects,but nevertheless,the Last Adam.He is Lord and king and lifegiver to be sure,but all granted by Yahweh for this to be so.Why CAN'T Yah give this to the genuine flesh Last Adam,as opposed to an archangel,a spirit creature who's "old enough" or another supposed member of his "being" as an excuse for this functional equality and exaltation?Could it be our traditions that make us think this notion is somehow repelling?And not scripture itself?God is love..Yahshua deserves that love..And we are made by Yahweh in Yahshua,who is our lifegiver by means of what he's accomplished and been given,as opposed to lifegiver literally by hand.We are given life in and through him.It's incredible in the most poignant way imaginable.Praise Yahweh and Yahshua!
Thursday, August 19, 2010
Watchtower apostate melody (rap style).."I get out" by Lauryn Hill
I love this song so much!Set to Lauryn Hill's " I get out "..I'm sure Lauryn didn't write this song for the Watchower but how apropos!If JW's see this,I KNOW there are some GREAT things about the organization.This video touches on what isn't and the good doesn't eradicate the bad.That's why humble home fellowships(like the 1st century Christians had) are superior to giant rich institutions that control your mind,or at least try to,who have lost their humility,mercy,and ability to accept truth over tradition.Who harbor a history of consistent bloodguilt,mishandling of sheep,false prophecy,and scripture twisting.You don't need a giant billion dollar a year corporation to serve God.It's that simple.
Tuesday, August 17, 2010
Jesus's preexistence
I came across a brief "debate" between Anthony Buzzard and a trinitarian and was gazing over the comments by people who had listened.I came across a couple I found compelling..Now these are edited by me to bring out what I found to be the most interesting ..if you want to see the FULL comments or to read more OR of course to listen to the debate,visit this link:
http://lineoffireradio.askdrbrown.org/2010/02/08/february-8-2010/
a man named Brad said,in relation to the preexistence of Christ:
On the issue of pre-existence, the Holy Spirit makes a special point in Jeremiah that God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mother’s womb. This “doctrine” of God’s confession of a “relationship knowledge” of a person prior to their birth is also set forth in detail in Psalm 139:14-17 where the infinite knowledge of God (God’s thoughts are without number) is said to encompass a knowledge of a human being prior to their birth (in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them). If Jesus as man had a greater revelation of this point than David or Jeremiah, he might well have shared it. In fact, if this point is true, we might imagine the Son of Man being filled with this understanding as he looked at himself, as David and Jeremiah had, through the eternal eyes of His Father.
If God the Father “knew” Jeremiah before he was born, and if God’s infinite knowledge and eternal point of view is accepted as a legitimate and authoritative frame of reference, and if Christ is the Logos made flesh, i.e. the self-expression of God the Father made human, one would think that such a human would have a transcendent self-image with respect to time, a vastly expanded experience of the revelation given to Jeremiah (Jer 1:5) and David (Psalm 139:14-18).
Let us ask ourselves, what was Christ’s self image like if he had a full revelation of God’s eternal perspective of him? And what if part of God’s intent in sending Christ was to give the rest of us a window into this eternal perspective — taking us to the destination that Jeremiah and David had pointed toward? Are we “seated in heavenly places” in Christ? Were we known before we were born? Were we not “created in Christ Jesus” and “chosen in him before the foundation of the world”? What if God wanted us to have a vehicle or paradigm for an eternal self-image, couldn’t He provide that in a perfect, pattern Son?
The truth is, much of Paul’s teaching extrapolates on the stated and unstated premise that we are to view our identities as eternally fixed in the Son. And the starting point for that discussion has to be some concept of a “Son” that transcends time, not as a second person of a tri-une (complex) God, but as a foreknown, prototype man who “was and is” the self expression of the ONE God– the Logos.
Brad went on to say in another comment(I'm assuming it's the same Brad!And again,this is edited.):
We try to lay out doctrines and creeds to define God; we would do better to let our hearts get to know God and His Son as individuals, as persons, as beings, and let their respective positions and personalities speak for themselves. Jesus said that His Father was “His God”; the man Christ is worshipping His God in heaven today. And God the Father is receiving that worship — which is coming from the heart of the only person, other than the Father, who is completely perfect, and pure in heart. Let’s not let doctrine rob us of such a beautiful reality!
Brad goes on to say:
God the Father distinguishes the human lineage of Christ as the basis for the honor due Christ. This is the BIG stumbling stone it seems to me, even today. At His trial, Jesus was finally found “guilty of death” when he confessed that He was the Son of the Blessed, and that as the Son of Man would be sitting at the right hand of His Father. That statement was enough to convict him.
Now, if I were to say, Jesus is one with His Father as man, and as man is due the same honor that is due His Father, based solely on His unique and profound birthright — in other words, that His human lineage and human relationship to God as human Son –puts him at the right hand of God — and gives him oneness with the Father — that God Himself accepts this as appropriate legal grounds for the honor and majesty attributable to His Son, then watch out.
And yet Jesus as man can say that God is His literal Father — and I say that this Sonship gives Jesus a birthright of Divine dimensions…that’s right, a birthright of Divine dimensions.
What is interesting is that history is repeating itself. the religious of our day are stumbled by the idea that Jesus, as MAN, is due the SAME honor that His biological Father is due. If you hang your hat on that point alone, you WILL be called a heretic by the mainstream of Christianity. It is blasphemy. You must recant, or say that He is one with God in some way other than “merely” as an only begotten human Son. Am I right?
In other words, if Jesus Christ was on (religious) trial today, and made no claims to be part of a complex unity, no claims to be a second person of God, but merely stated that he was the only begotten Son of God, as man, had been given His Father’s name, and all power in heaven and earth, and that God was requiring the world to honor Him as they Honor the Father — with only Luke 1:35 as a basis, he’d be called a heretic and a blasphemer.
How ironic…
http://lineoffireradio.askdrbrown.org/2010/02/08/february-8-2010/
a man named Brad said,in relation to the preexistence of Christ:
On the issue of pre-existence, the Holy Spirit makes a special point in Jeremiah that God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mother’s womb. This “doctrine” of God’s confession of a “relationship knowledge” of a person prior to their birth is also set forth in detail in Psalm 139:14-17 where the infinite knowledge of God (God’s thoughts are without number) is said to encompass a knowledge of a human being prior to their birth (in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them). If Jesus as man had a greater revelation of this point than David or Jeremiah, he might well have shared it. In fact, if this point is true, we might imagine the Son of Man being filled with this understanding as he looked at himself, as David and Jeremiah had, through the eternal eyes of His Father.
If God the Father “knew” Jeremiah before he was born, and if God’s infinite knowledge and eternal point of view is accepted as a legitimate and authoritative frame of reference, and if Christ is the Logos made flesh, i.e. the self-expression of God the Father made human, one would think that such a human would have a transcendent self-image with respect to time, a vastly expanded experience of the revelation given to Jeremiah (Jer 1:5) and David (Psalm 139:14-18).
Let us ask ourselves, what was Christ’s self image like if he had a full revelation of God’s eternal perspective of him? And what if part of God’s intent in sending Christ was to give the rest of us a window into this eternal perspective — taking us to the destination that Jeremiah and David had pointed toward? Are we “seated in heavenly places” in Christ? Were we known before we were born? Were we not “created in Christ Jesus” and “chosen in him before the foundation of the world”? What if God wanted us to have a vehicle or paradigm for an eternal self-image, couldn’t He provide that in a perfect, pattern Son?
The truth is, much of Paul’s teaching extrapolates on the stated and unstated premise that we are to view our identities as eternally fixed in the Son. And the starting point for that discussion has to be some concept of a “Son” that transcends time, not as a second person of a tri-une (complex) God, but as a foreknown, prototype man who “was and is” the self expression of the ONE God– the Logos.
Brad went on to say in another comment(I'm assuming it's the same Brad!And again,this is edited.):
We try to lay out doctrines and creeds to define God; we would do better to let our hearts get to know God and His Son as individuals, as persons, as beings, and let their respective positions and personalities speak for themselves. Jesus said that His Father was “His God”; the man Christ is worshipping His God in heaven today. And God the Father is receiving that worship — which is coming from the heart of the only person, other than the Father, who is completely perfect, and pure in heart. Let’s not let doctrine rob us of such a beautiful reality!
Brad goes on to say:
God the Father distinguishes the human lineage of Christ as the basis for the honor due Christ. This is the BIG stumbling stone it seems to me, even today. At His trial, Jesus was finally found “guilty of death” when he confessed that He was the Son of the Blessed, and that as the Son of Man would be sitting at the right hand of His Father. That statement was enough to convict him.
Now, if I were to say, Jesus is one with His Father as man, and as man is due the same honor that is due His Father, based solely on His unique and profound birthright — in other words, that His human lineage and human relationship to God as human Son –puts him at the right hand of God — and gives him oneness with the Father — that God Himself accepts this as appropriate legal grounds for the honor and majesty attributable to His Son, then watch out.
And yet Jesus as man can say that God is His literal Father — and I say that this Sonship gives Jesus a birthright of Divine dimensions…that’s right, a birthright of Divine dimensions.
What is interesting is that history is repeating itself. the religious of our day are stumbled by the idea that Jesus, as MAN, is due the SAME honor that His biological Father is due. If you hang your hat on that point alone, you WILL be called a heretic by the mainstream of Christianity. It is blasphemy. You must recant, or say that He is one with God in some way other than “merely” as an only begotten human Son. Am I right?
In other words, if Jesus Christ was on (religious) trial today, and made no claims to be part of a complex unity, no claims to be a second person of God, but merely stated that he was the only begotten Son of God, as man, had been given His Father’s name, and all power in heaven and earth, and that God was requiring the world to honor Him as they Honor the Father — with only Luke 1:35 as a basis, he’d be called a heretic and a blasphemer.
How ironic…
Sunday, August 15, 2010
Is Jesus Yahweh?
For those of you who have no idea why some Christians don't believe in a trinity,here is a good half hour presentation by Dan Mages that might help you.At the very least,hopefully you'll be able to recognize that unitarians actually have good reasons to reject the trinity doctrine and to heed texts like Deut. 6:4,John 17:3,1 Cor. 8:5,6,Mark 12:28-34,Eph. 1:3 etc. at face value.This is Dan's opening statement in a debate he had a while ago with trinitarian Ed Enochs.
You can purchase the entire debate right here:
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Catalog/Religion-and-Spirituality/Comparative-Religion/Trinity-Truth-or-Tragedy-Debate/19210
Lest there be any uproars,I do NOT think Jesus was *just* a man!I think he was divine because by the spirit of Yah was he made!He was sinless and perfect just like the first Adam was before sin.Only he's so much better than him because he was faithful & true,and has been rewarded with God's spirit immeasurably and an exaltation inimitable.He has been extolled to a position second only to God's,is king,Lord,and savior of the world.The fulfillment of God's kingdom plans,the Great Amen.
As for God being called the ONLY God,The ONLY savior,the ONLY one immortal..etc..and trinitarians saying this has to mean Jesus is God..all it takes is a little logic.Others BESIDES Yah and Jesus have been called saviors,gods,and will be immortal so what could this mean?Apparently,that no one is a god,a savior,or immortal without Yah making them those things.The scriptures cannot be broken and others ARE saviors,gods,and will be immortal,so reason MUST be utilized.No one could be any of those things without the Most High's allowance.And the other gods,saviors,and those granted immortality aren't people in God's being anymore than Christ is.
You literally have to enter scripture presupposing God is a substance composed of three separate individuals who aren't separate Gods but all equally God individually as just ONE God(not three!) to EVER think scripture logically says anything of the sort!It has to be read into every supposed trinity "proof text" with the incarnation in the front of one's mind.The imaginary incarnation based upon the misuse of a literal few texts that the bible doesn't communicate.A dogma of inference,with name calling and extreme judgmentalness attached(in that people will burn alive eternally for believing Jesus's father is the only True God acc to it's adherents!) is seriously sad,folks.It is time to question this bloodguilty dogma.Time for a NEW reformation.
You can purchase the entire debate right here:
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Catalog/Religion-and-Spirituality/Comparative-Religion/Trinity-Truth-or-Tragedy-Debate/19210
Lest there be any uproars,I do NOT think Jesus was *just* a man!I think he was divine because by the spirit of Yah was he made!He was sinless and perfect just like the first Adam was before sin.Only he's so much better than him because he was faithful & true,and has been rewarded with God's spirit immeasurably and an exaltation inimitable.He has been extolled to a position second only to God's,is king,Lord,and savior of the world.The fulfillment of God's kingdom plans,the Great Amen.
As for God being called the ONLY God,The ONLY savior,the ONLY one immortal..etc..and trinitarians saying this has to mean Jesus is God..all it takes is a little logic.Others BESIDES Yah and Jesus have been called saviors,gods,and will be immortal so what could this mean?Apparently,that no one is a god,a savior,or immortal without Yah making them those things.The scriptures cannot be broken and others ARE saviors,gods,and will be immortal,so reason MUST be utilized.No one could be any of those things without the Most High's allowance.And the other gods,saviors,and those granted immortality aren't people in God's being anymore than Christ is.
You literally have to enter scripture presupposing God is a substance composed of three separate individuals who aren't separate Gods but all equally God individually as just ONE God(not three!) to EVER think scripture logically says anything of the sort!It has to be read into every supposed trinity "proof text" with the incarnation in the front of one's mind.The imaginary incarnation based upon the misuse of a literal few texts that the bible doesn't communicate.A dogma of inference,with name calling and extreme judgmentalness attached(in that people will burn alive eternally for believing Jesus's father is the only True God acc to it's adherents!) is seriously sad,folks.It is time to question this bloodguilty dogma.Time for a NEW reformation.
Tuesday, August 10, 2010
Is the governing body your Pope?(a Jehovah's witness issue.)
When I feel like I want to blog to help JW's and don't feel any inspiration to do so for whatever reason,all I have to do is break out one of Ray Franz's 2 books and open to any page and start reading.There's so much damning and intelligently presented,very carefully thought out information throughout both books that I can't even read a page without wanting to share something I've just read with JW's.Ray had a gift for writing and in all sincerity wanted to reach all that he could with all that he learned(which is a LOT) in his lifespan as a JW governing body member and as a Christian.Not only JW's but anyone trapped in any manmade system that oppresses the freedom they could have in Christ and the freedom they could have to seek truth outside councils,creeds,traditions,religions,and systems. No more fear of men!Fear of God only please.All the book quotes are from "In Search of Christian Freedom."
To quote a Watchtower publication:
"Better it is to know now,rather than too late,that there is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us,and to accept and act upon the bible message,"not as the word of men,but,just as it truthfully is,as the word of God."(1 Thes. 2:13)Concerning the message faithfully declared by the Ezekial class Jehovah positively states that it "must come true."He asseverates that those who wait undecided until it does "come true" will also have to know that a prophet himself had proved to be in the midst of them."(Ez. 33:33)..What is to be gained by hesitating and doubting to the end that Jehovah can raise up and has raised up a genuine '"prophet" within our generation?"p.292 "The Nations Shall know that I am Jehovah"..from 1971
and another:
"Jehovah provides his loyal servants with advance knowledge about this system's end."7/1/84 WT
To quote Ray Franz:
"It asks its adherents to disregard its past trail,which is strewn with unfulfilled predictions and now rejected erroneous interpretations,and to continue to put near reverential trust in what it publishes,granting it the dignity,honor,and credence due a prophet of God.Instead of feeling humbled by the clear evidence of its erratic zigzagging course,it becomes more strident in its claims,more dogmatic as to its pronouncements.Is this the course of a "genuine prophet" of God?"Ray Franz "In search of Christian Freedom"p.425
Ray then goes on to point out that the faithful and discreet slave have claimed to get their food like Paul did,straight from God.So even though they reject the Catholic teaching of "apostolic succession",I would venture to say they intellectually intimidate their followers to implicitly trust them by their repetitive and seemingly confident insistence that they occupy a position like Paul's!Because who would want to question someone inspired by God's spirit?The WT has called itself the "Jeremiah,Ezekial,Elijah,Elisha,and John" "class" so let's not pretend they don't make boastful claims of their authority and right to guide Christ's sheep as inspired men.Unless of course they'd like to claim Jeremiah,Ezekial,Elijah,Elisha,and John weren't inspired!And the "anointed" are supposed to be of those men's "class",right?Another case of WT double speech where they're uninspired but yet inspired.Interesting.Unfortunately,they've misguided,lied to,false prophecied to,and handled sheep quite sloppily,treacherously even at times.God's truly anointed either don't do such things or when they do humbly repent if God even allows them to continue living(false prophets weren't shown such mercy in the OT!),which I haven't witnessed with the WT.
from another WT:
"How can we today watch Christ since he is invisible?We watch him in the sense that we discern his signals as given through his visible "slave" appointee over all the earthly interests of his kingdom.Through this spirit appointed channel his direction and strategy are communicated to all who are his "soldiers."These latter cannot afford to move ahead on their own.."p 22-23 6/1/82 WT
How could the WT possibly exclude itself from claiming the kind of authority the Pope has if no one can move ahead as a Christian without their imposition?It's as if Yah and Christ aren't sufficient at all..No one can move or exercise a Christian muscle without the governing body.Yes,folks,this is what Christ warned against ..the imposing authority of Pharisaic men who replace him as your mediators to God,claiming you can't be saved or know anything without them.Blasphemous.
To quote Ray:
"It seems nearly unbelievable that any could conceive of Jesus,as a commanding officer,sending directions in the form of the erratic,contradictory,shifting presentation of matters that has proceeded from the organization down through its history.But we are told that the view we get from that organization is the view of Christ himself,"strategically timed" by him.If the organization becomes mired down by holding to a wrong position for decades ,we are to stagnate with it;if it heads off in a wrong direction,we are to go off on a tangent with it.The words of Rev. 14:4,"These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes,"in actual fact converts into "These are the ones that keep following the organization no matter where it goes."p.427
It's one thing to preach what the bible says succintly and make certain claims for yourself as speaking Jesus's words..It's quite another to go crazy with date-setting,extrabiblical ideas and regulations,twisting of scriptures,blatant denial of much of what Christ says for the majority of mankind,refusing to exegete the blood passages in their OT context resulting in the deaths of countless thousands,spiritually abusing people left and right,..the list just goes on and on..and then to say you're inspired and to listen to you is to listen to Christ.The scriptures don't need the WT's added elements.As Ray points out in his awesome book,the WT has repeatedly compared a rebellion against them to that of Israelite rebellion against the OT priesthood.All the while the WT ignores that Christ eradicated the division between a priestly and non priestly class because with the New Covenant there's only ONE mediator and high Priest,Yah's Son!Basically,the WT propagates what Christ abolished and steals his belongings for themselves.Which essentially makes JW's unintentional thieves and plunderers trying to enter life "some other way"..through an organization instead of Christ because they don't accept Christ's mediatorship,which I can't stress enough as being the blasphemy it really is!(John 10,1 Tim. 2:5)
If God made his appointment of Moses,prophets,and such to represent him apparent by what he accomplished through them and what they spoke coming true by Yah's will and power,then what would this say for the WT as all their predictions collapse and fail,their unbiblical or extrabiblical doctrines repelling people who know they need to be born again and that Christ is the only mediator etc?Those people who know things like that all these permissable fractions of blood the WT gives their okay on in totality is ,well,blood.How in the world could any of their failures and scripture-twistings be conducive to the types of claims they make and positions they herald for themselves that belong SOLELY to Christ?This organization is dangerous.JW's need to learn to distinguish between an actual appointing by God of men that is always established by divine acts of power and conformity to whatever Christ said and however Christ behaved,free from bloodguilt,hypocrisy,and spiritual abuse from a SELF-ASSIGNED authority that misleads and spiritually injures by robbing you of what Christ offers freely.
Let's examine some hypocrisy and irony as pointed out by Ray Franz:
"When one considers that the organization attributes to itself the role of prophet,apostle,spokesman for God,priestly representative,chief communications officer for the King of kings and Overseer of our souls,administrator of all Christ's interests on earth,director of all his household or congregation,it seems almost amusing,were it not so tragic,to read this paragraph in the 6/1/82 WT,p. 19:
"A mental attitude that must be guarded against is thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought to think.That could lead a Christian into thinking that he has a special mission from God apart from the channel through which Jehovah dispenses his truths and directs his household.It would in effect place him in a supposed special relationship with Jehovah not enjoyed by any other brother or sister in the household."
Are they serious?!
To quote Ray
"When analyzed,the paragraph just quoted is seen as in effect telling all the "rank and file" members,"How could you ever think that you have a relationship with God equal to what WE have?"p.429
Ray goes on to say:
"Not until the arrival of the papacy can claims of such exclusive ecclesiastical authority be found to match those published in the WT magazine.The claims of the papacy relate to authority vested in a single man;the claims of the WT organization relate to authority vested in a small group of men.The papacy presents itself as the "viceregent of Christ on earth."In effect,the appointed manager or administrative deputy of Christ.The leadership of the WT organization does not use the term "viceregent" but describes itself as the one and only "steward" whom Christ has,since 1919,assigned the "direction and administration of all his interests on earth."It is a distinction without difference,for only the terminology differs.The claim is the same.
Coupled with the program of constant indoctrination,the ultimate effect of all this organizational posturing is intellectual intimidation.Witnesses are subtly made to feel that they should distrust their own thinking and judgment when they read the bible,that they should distrust their own heart and its motivation,and that no matter how conscientiously they may seek to apply God's word they should distrust their conscience as being a sound guide.Their trust should be in "the organization."They must march in lockstep with it.To follow the leading of Christ and of holy spirit in any other direction would be to run ahead of God."p. 431
This is a very kind way of describing what I would personally call mind control.And outright deception trying to get people to believe,and oft times succeeding,that we just simply cannot disobey or fail to follow an organization that has misled millions numerous times,for decades at a time in various ways without disobeying or running ahead of God!Their bold hubris becomes astoundingly off putting and asinine when one steps outside the WT box long enough to critically think and unbiasly examine the WT's history,claims,and teachings,the propaganda they've produced and publications they've penned against all the facts easily found all over the place now and Jesus's own words..JW's need to read the bible with fresh eyes that aren't corrupted by a WT lens.A different bible preferably than the NWT simply because it becomes almost robotic to read WT theology INTO the biblical texts when the ever familiar NWT is used.With all the meetings,all the studies,all the pressure to read read read WT literature with the NWT daily..it definitely becomes standard to read NWT passages only through a WT lens for a loyal and studious JW.
Luke 20:1 One day, as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up 2 and said to him, “Tell us by what authority you do these things, or who it is that gave you this authority.”
The WT expects you to believe whatever and do whatever they say as if they got their authority from the same place Jesus did,no matter how many times they prove this could not be the case.This isn't ok.We are not to follow men who haven't listened to Jesus in key areas,who've misled and hurt too many people to count consistently throughout its brief history.Just a brief examination of its history btw will prove it's a sect that broke off from other sects..that Charles Taze Russell was a man inspired by other false prophets and peculiar things like pyramidology and even Enochian magic possibly..the list goes on.Of course I would encourage any JW to research all this and not just the WT's side of things.
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
If,let's say,you were to confront an elder or any one in the WT organization about something they teach that you don't think is in line with what the scriptures say,what would happen and why?The men in the upper echalons of the organization don't conform to anything anymore but their own traditions.They've demonstrated zero willingness to reform or change even when Jesus's words would DEMAND such.And if fallible men can't be questioned,no matter how frequently wrong they are and need to be,how is that any different from the Pope's supposed monopoly on truth and demands of conformity?As Ray said in his book..it's the SAME THING for the WT as it is for the Catholics..the only difference is the NUMBER of men one must implicitly trust and follow in order to be able to be saved and reach Yahweh or Christ.One for the Catholics..a few more for the WT.I cannot stress to JW's enough how the organization itself has become an idol and taken on a life of it's own.It's almost like a god to it's followers that just simply cannot be spoken against,questioned,or left if one wants to live forever and be Christian.
To quote a Watchtower publication:
"Better it is to know now,rather than too late,that there is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us,and to accept and act upon the bible message,"not as the word of men,but,just as it truthfully is,as the word of God."(1 Thes. 2:13)Concerning the message faithfully declared by the Ezekial class Jehovah positively states that it "must come true."He asseverates that those who wait undecided until it does "come true" will also have to know that a prophet himself had proved to be in the midst of them."(Ez. 33:33)..What is to be gained by hesitating and doubting to the end that Jehovah can raise up and has raised up a genuine '"prophet" within our generation?"p.292 "The Nations Shall know that I am Jehovah"..from 1971
and another:
"Jehovah provides his loyal servants with advance knowledge about this system's end."7/1/84 WT
To quote Ray Franz:
"It asks its adherents to disregard its past trail,which is strewn with unfulfilled predictions and now rejected erroneous interpretations,and to continue to put near reverential trust in what it publishes,granting it the dignity,honor,and credence due a prophet of God.Instead of feeling humbled by the clear evidence of its erratic zigzagging course,it becomes more strident in its claims,more dogmatic as to its pronouncements.Is this the course of a "genuine prophet" of God?"Ray Franz "In search of Christian Freedom"p.425
Ray then goes on to point out that the faithful and discreet slave have claimed to get their food like Paul did,straight from God.So even though they reject the Catholic teaching of "apostolic succession",I would venture to say they intellectually intimidate their followers to implicitly trust them by their repetitive and seemingly confident insistence that they occupy a position like Paul's!Because who would want to question someone inspired by God's spirit?The WT has called itself the "Jeremiah,Ezekial,Elijah,Elisha,and John" "class" so let's not pretend they don't make boastful claims of their authority and right to guide Christ's sheep as inspired men.Unless of course they'd like to claim Jeremiah,Ezekial,Elijah,Elisha,and John weren't inspired!And the "anointed" are supposed to be of those men's "class",right?Another case of WT double speech where they're uninspired but yet inspired.Interesting.Unfortunately,they've misguided,lied to,false prophecied to,and handled sheep quite sloppily,treacherously even at times.God's truly anointed either don't do such things or when they do humbly repent if God even allows them to continue living(false prophets weren't shown such mercy in the OT!),which I haven't witnessed with the WT.
from another WT:
"How can we today watch Christ since he is invisible?We watch him in the sense that we discern his signals as given through his visible "slave" appointee over all the earthly interests of his kingdom.Through this spirit appointed channel his direction and strategy are communicated to all who are his "soldiers."These latter cannot afford to move ahead on their own.."p 22-23 6/1/82 WT
How could the WT possibly exclude itself from claiming the kind of authority the Pope has if no one can move ahead as a Christian without their imposition?It's as if Yah and Christ aren't sufficient at all..No one can move or exercise a Christian muscle without the governing body.Yes,folks,this is what Christ warned against ..the imposing authority of Pharisaic men who replace him as your mediators to God,claiming you can't be saved or know anything without them.Blasphemous.
To quote Ray:
"It seems nearly unbelievable that any could conceive of Jesus,as a commanding officer,sending directions in the form of the erratic,contradictory,shifting presentation of matters that has proceeded from the organization down through its history.But we are told that the view we get from that organization is the view of Christ himself,"strategically timed" by him.If the organization becomes mired down by holding to a wrong position for decades ,we are to stagnate with it;if it heads off in a wrong direction,we are to go off on a tangent with it.The words of Rev. 14:4,"These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes,"in actual fact converts into "These are the ones that keep following the organization no matter where it goes."p.427
It's one thing to preach what the bible says succintly and make certain claims for yourself as speaking Jesus's words..It's quite another to go crazy with date-setting,extrabiblical ideas and regulations,twisting of scriptures,blatant denial of much of what Christ says for the majority of mankind,refusing to exegete the blood passages in their OT context resulting in the deaths of countless thousands,spiritually abusing people left and right,..the list just goes on and on..and then to say you're inspired and to listen to you is to listen to Christ.The scriptures don't need the WT's added elements.As Ray points out in his awesome book,the WT has repeatedly compared a rebellion against them to that of Israelite rebellion against the OT priesthood.All the while the WT ignores that Christ eradicated the division between a priestly and non priestly class because with the New Covenant there's only ONE mediator and high Priest,Yah's Son!Basically,the WT propagates what Christ abolished and steals his belongings for themselves.Which essentially makes JW's unintentional thieves and plunderers trying to enter life "some other way"..through an organization instead of Christ because they don't accept Christ's mediatorship,which I can't stress enough as being the blasphemy it really is!(John 10,1 Tim. 2:5)
If God made his appointment of Moses,prophets,and such to represent him apparent by what he accomplished through them and what they spoke coming true by Yah's will and power,then what would this say for the WT as all their predictions collapse and fail,their unbiblical or extrabiblical doctrines repelling people who know they need to be born again and that Christ is the only mediator etc?Those people who know things like that all these permissable fractions of blood the WT gives their okay on in totality is ,well,blood.How in the world could any of their failures and scripture-twistings be conducive to the types of claims they make and positions they herald for themselves that belong SOLELY to Christ?This organization is dangerous.JW's need to learn to distinguish between an actual appointing by God of men that is always established by divine acts of power and conformity to whatever Christ said and however Christ behaved,free from bloodguilt,hypocrisy,and spiritual abuse from a SELF-ASSIGNED authority that misleads and spiritually injures by robbing you of what Christ offers freely.
Let's examine some hypocrisy and irony as pointed out by Ray Franz:
"When one considers that the organization attributes to itself the role of prophet,apostle,spokesman for God,priestly representative,chief communications officer for the King of kings and Overseer of our souls,administrator of all Christ's interests on earth,director of all his household or congregation,it seems almost amusing,were it not so tragic,to read this paragraph in the 6/1/82 WT,p. 19:
"A mental attitude that must be guarded against is thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought to think.That could lead a Christian into thinking that he has a special mission from God apart from the channel through which Jehovah dispenses his truths and directs his household.It would in effect place him in a supposed special relationship with Jehovah not enjoyed by any other brother or sister in the household."
Are they serious?!
To quote Ray
"When analyzed,the paragraph just quoted is seen as in effect telling all the "rank and file" members,"How could you ever think that you have a relationship with God equal to what WE have?"p.429
Ray goes on to say:
"Not until the arrival of the papacy can claims of such exclusive ecclesiastical authority be found to match those published in the WT magazine.The claims of the papacy relate to authority vested in a single man;the claims of the WT organization relate to authority vested in a small group of men.The papacy presents itself as the "viceregent of Christ on earth."In effect,the appointed manager or administrative deputy of Christ.The leadership of the WT organization does not use the term "viceregent" but describes itself as the one and only "steward" whom Christ has,since 1919,assigned the "direction and administration of all his interests on earth."It is a distinction without difference,for only the terminology differs.The claim is the same.
Coupled with the program of constant indoctrination,the ultimate effect of all this organizational posturing is intellectual intimidation.Witnesses are subtly made to feel that they should distrust their own thinking and judgment when they read the bible,that they should distrust their own heart and its motivation,and that no matter how conscientiously they may seek to apply God's word they should distrust their conscience as being a sound guide.Their trust should be in "the organization."They must march in lockstep with it.To follow the leading of Christ and of holy spirit in any other direction would be to run ahead of God."p. 431
This is a very kind way of describing what I would personally call mind control.And outright deception trying to get people to believe,and oft times succeeding,that we just simply cannot disobey or fail to follow an organization that has misled millions numerous times,for decades at a time in various ways without disobeying or running ahead of God!Their bold hubris becomes astoundingly off putting and asinine when one steps outside the WT box long enough to critically think and unbiasly examine the WT's history,claims,and teachings,the propaganda they've produced and publications they've penned against all the facts easily found all over the place now and Jesus's own words..JW's need to read the bible with fresh eyes that aren't corrupted by a WT lens.A different bible preferably than the NWT simply because it becomes almost robotic to read WT theology INTO the biblical texts when the ever familiar NWT is used.With all the meetings,all the studies,all the pressure to read read read WT literature with the NWT daily..it definitely becomes standard to read NWT passages only through a WT lens for a loyal and studious JW.
Luke 20:1 One day, as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up 2 and said to him, “Tell us by what authority you do these things, or who it is that gave you this authority.”
The WT expects you to believe whatever and do whatever they say as if they got their authority from the same place Jesus did,no matter how many times they prove this could not be the case.This isn't ok.We are not to follow men who haven't listened to Jesus in key areas,who've misled and hurt too many people to count consistently throughout its brief history.Just a brief examination of its history btw will prove it's a sect that broke off from other sects..that Charles Taze Russell was a man inspired by other false prophets and peculiar things like pyramidology and even Enochian magic possibly..the list goes on.Of course I would encourage any JW to research all this and not just the WT's side of things.
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
If,let's say,you were to confront an elder or any one in the WT organization about something they teach that you don't think is in line with what the scriptures say,what would happen and why?The men in the upper echalons of the organization don't conform to anything anymore but their own traditions.They've demonstrated zero willingness to reform or change even when Jesus's words would DEMAND such.And if fallible men can't be questioned,no matter how frequently wrong they are and need to be,how is that any different from the Pope's supposed monopoly on truth and demands of conformity?As Ray said in his book..it's the SAME THING for the WT as it is for the Catholics..the only difference is the NUMBER of men one must implicitly trust and follow in order to be able to be saved and reach Yahweh or Christ.One for the Catholics..a few more for the WT.I cannot stress to JW's enough how the organization itself has become an idol and taken on a life of it's own.It's almost like a god to it's followers that just simply cannot be spoken against,questioned,or left if one wants to live forever and be Christian.
Saturday, August 7, 2010
John 8:58
1 Corinthians 15:10:But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
Paul here more accurately quotes Yahweh and says "I am what I am"..no one would think he's Yahweh for doing so.
The apostles used the Septuagint and in it at Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh says:
14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
So Yahweh says EGO EIMI HO ON.The ego eimi wasn't his title but simply a phrase,namely *I am,* that introduced what he actually was,HO ON,aka "the being."In other words,in no way,shape,or form was Jesus quoting Exodus.Jesus didn't say "Ego eimi ho on."Or even "ho on",which would have been the title trinitarians are looking for here.Yahweh saying *I am ho on* would be like me saying I am a woman.If someone later said "I am" would you think they were quoting me with such a common phrase that people use many times a day as an introduction to what they are?Of course not!Yet that's similar to what trinitarians are doing here in John.It's nonsensical.
Often times in the bible when someone says "I am" when identifying himself,the bible translators will insert "he" right afterward to let you know who the person is saying he is.This is done because our modern English language doesn't function identically to the ancient biblical languages.For example,examine:
John 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things." 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am HE."
To quote Greg Deuble from "They never told me THIS in Church" p.183
"You will notice that in most bibles the word *he* is in italics.This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear.Here Jesus says to the woman--in the context of her question about the Messiah--that he IS the Messiah,the Christ."I who speak to you am he."In the Greek it reads "ego eimi."Jesus simply says I am he,the Messiah.Definitely not "I AM is the one speaking to you!"
So Jesus is often identifying himself as the Messiah,not the Godman,not the second person of a triune Greek substance,not Michael the Archangel,not some OT figure named "Wisdom" or "Word,"but simply the Messiah,the Lamb come to save the world,slain before it was founded,(Rev 13:8)decreed long long ago,foreordained before the world was even made.Now manifest(1 John 1:2) for our salvation and his inheritance and God's glory!
In John 9,the blind man who Jesus heals says "ego eimi!" when people dispute whether he is the one Jesus healed.The translators translate "ego eimi" as "I am the one."..So where's the consistency?I'm perceiving interpretive abuse here,inconsistency and bias to be sure.Basically trinitarian translators have no problem making sense of the Greek language when interpreting it into English except in John 8:58 where they can abuse the passage and try and make it say what it doesn't with capitalization and absurd inference.Absurd because "ho on" isn't even there!And even if it were,Jesus says his words weren't even his own!
In fact let's play a little game I like to call "instances where it is appropriate to render "ego eimi"(aka I am) as something else!"Observe the following:
Luke 19:22:Thou knewest that I was (ego eimi!) an austere man(KJV)
2 Corinthains 12:11:I am (ego eimi) become a fool in glorifying,ye have compelled me(other translations use I have for ego eimi,which sounds better,as it would have in John 8:58 as well)
John 14:9:Have I been (ego eimi!) so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me?(KJV)
Yet the NWT renders ego eimi as "I have been" in John 8:58 and are called blasphemers for doing so.Interesting.Hypocritical of Christians to call that an abomination when their own translations take such liberty elsewhere where it wouldn't threaten any tradition.
There are many more examples of this..just making a point.
Keep in mind when reading the bible that capitalization is added by men.It's not in the original Greek.So don't be misled by capitalization of words like "spirit","word" or "I am."
Why would they want to kill him if he wasn't claiming deity?To quote Patrick Navas from his book "Divine Truth or human Tradition?" very loosely,as some of it is put in my own words.:
"The Jewish reaction came at the end or climax of an increasing sense of hostility toward Jesus BASED ON PREVIOUS exchanges.In verse 21 he told them they'd die in their sin & that their father was the devil,the father of the lie.He also said "you are NOT of God" and they told him he was possessed by a demon!Clearly demonstrating their increasingly aggressive & hostile disposition up to that point..In vs. 55 Jesus called them liars and said "you do not know the father...I know him..If I said I didn't I would be a liar like you but I do know him and I keep HIS word."Also,in Luke 4:14-30 ,the people of the synagogue tried to kill Jesus by throwing him down a mountain for what might have been an even lesser offense.He said he wouldn't perform anymore healing among the synagogue of Nazareth and that he would direct his attention to others.The crowd was enraged and attempted to kill him."
Patrick them goes on to express his belief that this proves Jesus literally preexisted,which I no longer believe,while not being dogmatic about my new belief.But Navas also says:
"He pronounced seniority over Abraham so by standards of Jewish society he has greater authority than Abraham.NO ONE Listening at the time would've picked up on a divine self identification in the mere expression "I am!"
Did Jesus have to literally preexist as a spirit creature as Yah's first creation before he could have preeminence over Abraham?No.For he was the promised Messiah!,slain before the foundation of the world,God's greatest prophecy and plan of salvation,the savior of mankind,the Son of Man in Daniel given a kingdom and the world,king and Lord of all,the fulfillment of all things in whom we consist!And THAT is why he's of higher rank than and of more importance and grander significance than their father Abraham.The Jews knew very well he was identifying himself as the Messiah and with that revelation,on top of his having already condemned and flagrantly insulted them,was the last straw to be sure!
IF the Jews did think Jesus was saying he was older in literal preexistence,imo,it would simply mean they misunderstood him just like they had so many times before.Like they did when they thought he said Abraham saw him and he saw Abraham when all he had actually said was that Abraham had rejoiced to see his day!How did Abraham do this?By meeting a spirit creature named "Word" and "Wisdom" ,or perhaps "Michael" or "Angel of Yah" in the OT?I don't think so.Here's how Abraham rejoiced at the prospect of seeing his day:
Hebrews 11:10:For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
So Abraham,with eyes of faith,saw Jesus's coming day when the New Jerusalem blesses the earth and Jesus rules it.It's not that he literally met a spirit creature that would be reincarnated as his Messiah before this.
He BECAME for us God's word and wisdom by fulfilling God's wise plans and revealing God to the world as God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Now this is supposed to be one of the best trinity "proofs".They can all be refuted.My favorite method is after reading the whole bible,determining what the GREAT MAJORITY of texts suggest or proclaim and THEN taking those that SEEM ambiguous and interpreting those in the light of biblical HARMONY,context,reason and of course,in prayer.
It makes perfect sense to me that God filling Christ full of the wonderful knowledge of the all the plans God had for him from the beginning would compel Christ to say things like:Before Abraham existed,I am he(the one Abraham rejoiced to see the day of,aka the Messiah!)" and "glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was even made..."etc...He's been with God from the beginning to be sure!Can you imagine being filled with the knowledge God had you in his heart and mind from the beginning for the specifics Jesus was decreed for,ie to save the world ,inherit a kingdom,sustain a new creation,as heir,king,and Lord?Talk about inspiring!
Colossians 1:26: the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
So what was Jesus before he was revealed to the saints?A mystery hidden for ages!Not revealed till he was born in the flesh.
1 Cor 2:7:we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
So Jesus was the "secret and hidden wisdom of God decreed before the ages for our glory"...simple enough.
John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
And how did he love him?
1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)
For he was foreknown before [pro] the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
Yah loving Christ this long would be like a mother who didn't have a child yet ,but knowing everything about her child long before he was conceived or born and having that intimacy with the knowledge of him constantly in her heart,mind,and soul.Knowing the gifts she couldn't wait to give the child.The accomplishments and obedience her child would produce.etc.Truly a remarkable and poignant thought in my opinion!Christ was with Yah in heart,mind,and spirit in this way before he even made the world!
Now I will present to you 3 brief summaries of the basics of what Jesus in John 8:58 is really communicating.First,mine from an email I sent to someone who had asked me a question about the text in question:
Jews were inquiring of Jesus this:
53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? Also, the
prophets died. Who do you claim to be?"
Jesus then proceeded to explain to them who he was,God's foreordained decreed
Messiah who Abraham rejoiced just in PROSPECT to have seen his day!I know he's
claiming a foreordination here because he's talking about a FUTURE day Abraham
rejoiced to see as opposed to a meeting of him in a preexistent state of
being.The Jews THEN misunderstood and ASSUMED he meant he'd seen Abraham..And
naturally,they're mistaken because all he said was that Abraham through eyes of
faith had seen him!Then Jesus continues explaining who he is by declaring how he
existed before Abraham even was as the planned Messiah.He was still trying to
answer their questions from before that they'd misunderstood his answers on.They
just weren't getting him.
Now for one from a friend in another email:
One must always remember, that it wasn't only Jesus' statement in
verse 58, that upset his listeners.
Jesus gave a series of rebukes and censures from verse 12 onwards.
Verse 58 was the "last straw".
However, what is the context of Jesus' answer?
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead?
and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
The Pharisees' questions were asking:
Are you greater than our father Abraham? Who do you make yourself out to be?
Jesus never said that Abraham saw him or that he saw Abraham!
By Jesus asserting that Abraham rejoiced to see my (Messianic) day,
Jesus is again, claiming to be the Messiah.
And the Messiah was foreordained by GOD (1 Peter 1.20) long before Abraham.
By implying that he is the Messiah (by saying that "I am he - ego eimi;
cp. John 4.25-26, 8.24),
Jesus is indeed greater than Abraham and all the prophets.
The Pharisees couldn't take anymore!! So they wanted to stone him.
And finally Greg Deuble summarizes things quite nicely and in my opinion competently.He says on page 185 of his book:
"The conclusion is inevitable.Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born,I am he" is the straightforward claim he is the long promised one,the Messiah,the One in question.Jesus is the savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.In each of the other examples cited(with the blind man etc.) ,the translators supply the word "he" to the phrase "I am."Why not be consistent here in John 8:58 as well?The only reason not to is because of traditional bias.What Jesus said is this:"Before Abraham was born,I am he,"meaning,I am the Messiah that Abraham looked forward to.This is a very reasonable statement from one who thinks that God had the Messiah in mind from the beginning."
And we need no inference for that notion,as we have explicit scriptural statements that prove He did.
Paul here more accurately quotes Yahweh and says "I am what I am"..no one would think he's Yahweh for doing so.
The apostles used the Septuagint and in it at Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh says:
14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
So Yahweh says EGO EIMI HO ON.The ego eimi wasn't his title but simply a phrase,namely *I am,* that introduced what he actually was,HO ON,aka "the being."In other words,in no way,shape,or form was Jesus quoting Exodus.Jesus didn't say "Ego eimi ho on."Or even "ho on",which would have been the title trinitarians are looking for here.Yahweh saying *I am ho on* would be like me saying I am a woman.If someone later said "I am" would you think they were quoting me with such a common phrase that people use many times a day as an introduction to what they are?Of course not!Yet that's similar to what trinitarians are doing here in John.It's nonsensical.
Often times in the bible when someone says "I am" when identifying himself,the bible translators will insert "he" right afterward to let you know who the person is saying he is.This is done because our modern English language doesn't function identically to the ancient biblical languages.For example,examine:
John 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things." 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am HE."
To quote Greg Deuble from "They never told me THIS in Church" p.183
"You will notice that in most bibles the word *he* is in italics.This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear.Here Jesus says to the woman--in the context of her question about the Messiah--that he IS the Messiah,the Christ."I who speak to you am he."In the Greek it reads "ego eimi."Jesus simply says I am he,the Messiah.Definitely not "I AM is the one speaking to you!"
So Jesus is often identifying himself as the Messiah,not the Godman,not the second person of a triune Greek substance,not Michael the Archangel,not some OT figure named "Wisdom" or "Word,"but simply the Messiah,the Lamb come to save the world,slain before it was founded,(Rev 13:8)decreed long long ago,foreordained before the world was even made.Now manifest(1 John 1:2) for our salvation and his inheritance and God's glory!
In John 9,the blind man who Jesus heals says "ego eimi!" when people dispute whether he is the one Jesus healed.The translators translate "ego eimi" as "I am the one."..So where's the consistency?I'm perceiving interpretive abuse here,inconsistency and bias to be sure.Basically trinitarian translators have no problem making sense of the Greek language when interpreting it into English except in John 8:58 where they can abuse the passage and try and make it say what it doesn't with capitalization and absurd inference.Absurd because "ho on" isn't even there!And even if it were,Jesus says his words weren't even his own!
In fact let's play a little game I like to call "instances where it is appropriate to render "ego eimi"(aka I am) as something else!"Observe the following:
Luke 19:22:Thou knewest that I was (ego eimi!) an austere man(KJV)
2 Corinthains 12:11:I am (ego eimi) become a fool in glorifying,ye have compelled me(other translations use I have for ego eimi,which sounds better,as it would have in John 8:58 as well)
John 14:9:Have I been (ego eimi!) so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me?(KJV)
Yet the NWT renders ego eimi as "I have been" in John 8:58 and are called blasphemers for doing so.Interesting.Hypocritical of Christians to call that an abomination when their own translations take such liberty elsewhere where it wouldn't threaten any tradition.
There are many more examples of this..just making a point.
Keep in mind when reading the bible that capitalization is added by men.It's not in the original Greek.So don't be misled by capitalization of words like "spirit","word" or "I am."
Why would they want to kill him if he wasn't claiming deity?To quote Patrick Navas from his book "Divine Truth or human Tradition?" very loosely,as some of it is put in my own words.:
"The Jewish reaction came at the end or climax of an increasing sense of hostility toward Jesus BASED ON PREVIOUS exchanges.In verse 21 he told them they'd die in their sin & that their father was the devil,the father of the lie.He also said "you are NOT of God" and they told him he was possessed by a demon!Clearly demonstrating their increasingly aggressive & hostile disposition up to that point..In vs. 55 Jesus called them liars and said "you do not know the father...I know him..If I said I didn't I would be a liar like you but I do know him and I keep HIS word."Also,in Luke 4:14-30 ,the people of the synagogue tried to kill Jesus by throwing him down a mountain for what might have been an even lesser offense.He said he wouldn't perform anymore healing among the synagogue of Nazareth and that he would direct his attention to others.The crowd was enraged and attempted to kill him."
Patrick them goes on to express his belief that this proves Jesus literally preexisted,which I no longer believe,while not being dogmatic about my new belief.But Navas also says:
"He pronounced seniority over Abraham so by standards of Jewish society he has greater authority than Abraham.NO ONE Listening at the time would've picked up on a divine self identification in the mere expression "I am!"
Did Jesus have to literally preexist as a spirit creature as Yah's first creation before he could have preeminence over Abraham?No.For he was the promised Messiah!,slain before the foundation of the world,God's greatest prophecy and plan of salvation,the savior of mankind,the Son of Man in Daniel given a kingdom and the world,king and Lord of all,the fulfillment of all things in whom we consist!And THAT is why he's of higher rank than and of more importance and grander significance than their father Abraham.The Jews knew very well he was identifying himself as the Messiah and with that revelation,on top of his having already condemned and flagrantly insulted them,was the last straw to be sure!
IF the Jews did think Jesus was saying he was older in literal preexistence,imo,it would simply mean they misunderstood him just like they had so many times before.Like they did when they thought he said Abraham saw him and he saw Abraham when all he had actually said was that Abraham had rejoiced to see his day!How did Abraham do this?By meeting a spirit creature named "Word" and "Wisdom" ,or perhaps "Michael" or "Angel of Yah" in the OT?I don't think so.Here's how Abraham rejoiced at the prospect of seeing his day:
Hebrews 11:10:For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
So Abraham,with eyes of faith,saw Jesus's coming day when the New Jerusalem blesses the earth and Jesus rules it.It's not that he literally met a spirit creature that would be reincarnated as his Messiah before this.
He BECAME for us God's word and wisdom by fulfilling God's wise plans and revealing God to the world as God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Now this is supposed to be one of the best trinity "proofs".They can all be refuted.My favorite method is after reading the whole bible,determining what the GREAT MAJORITY of texts suggest or proclaim and THEN taking those that SEEM ambiguous and interpreting those in the light of biblical HARMONY,context,reason and of course,in prayer.
It makes perfect sense to me that God filling Christ full of the wonderful knowledge of the all the plans God had for him from the beginning would compel Christ to say things like:Before Abraham existed,I am he(the one Abraham rejoiced to see the day of,aka the Messiah!)" and "glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was even made..."etc...He's been with God from the beginning to be sure!Can you imagine being filled with the knowledge God had you in his heart and mind from the beginning for the specifics Jesus was decreed for,ie to save the world ,inherit a kingdom,sustain a new creation,as heir,king,and Lord?Talk about inspiring!
Colossians 1:26: the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
So what was Jesus before he was revealed to the saints?A mystery hidden for ages!Not revealed till he was born in the flesh.
1 Cor 2:7:we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
So Jesus was the "secret and hidden wisdom of God decreed before the ages for our glory"...simple enough.
John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
And how did he love him?
1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)
For he was foreknown before [pro] the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
Yah loving Christ this long would be like a mother who didn't have a child yet ,but knowing everything about her child long before he was conceived or born and having that intimacy with the knowledge of him constantly in her heart,mind,and soul.Knowing the gifts she couldn't wait to give the child.The accomplishments and obedience her child would produce.etc.Truly a remarkable and poignant thought in my opinion!Christ was with Yah in heart,mind,and spirit in this way before he even made the world!
Now I will present to you 3 brief summaries of the basics of what Jesus in John 8:58 is really communicating.First,mine from an email I sent to someone who had asked me a question about the text in question:
Jews were inquiring of Jesus this:
53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? Also, the
prophets died. Who do you claim to be?"
Jesus then proceeded to explain to them who he was,God's foreordained decreed
Messiah who Abraham rejoiced just in PROSPECT to have seen his day!I know he's
claiming a foreordination here because he's talking about a FUTURE day Abraham
rejoiced to see as opposed to a meeting of him in a preexistent state of
being.The Jews THEN misunderstood and ASSUMED he meant he'd seen Abraham..And
naturally,they're mistaken because all he said was that Abraham through eyes of
faith had seen him!Then Jesus continues explaining who he is by declaring how he
existed before Abraham even was as the planned Messiah.He was still trying to
answer their questions from before that they'd misunderstood his answers on.They
just weren't getting him.
Now for one from a friend in another email:
One must always remember, that it wasn't only Jesus' statement in
verse 58, that upset his listeners.
Jesus gave a series of rebukes and censures from verse 12 onwards.
Verse 58 was the "last straw".
However, what is the context of Jesus' answer?
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead?
and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
The Pharisees' questions were asking:
Are you greater than our father Abraham? Who do you make yourself out to be?
Jesus never said that Abraham saw him or that he saw Abraham!
By Jesus asserting that Abraham rejoiced to see my (Messianic) day,
Jesus is again, claiming to be the Messiah.
And the Messiah was foreordained by GOD (1 Peter 1.20) long before Abraham.
By implying that he is the Messiah (by saying that "I am he - ego eimi;
cp. John 4.25-26, 8.24),
Jesus is indeed greater than Abraham and all the prophets.
The Pharisees couldn't take anymore!! So they wanted to stone him.
And finally Greg Deuble summarizes things quite nicely and in my opinion competently.He says on page 185 of his book:
"The conclusion is inevitable.Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born,I am he" is the straightforward claim he is the long promised one,the Messiah,the One in question.Jesus is the savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.In each of the other examples cited(with the blind man etc.) ,the translators supply the word "he" to the phrase "I am."Why not be consistent here in John 8:58 as well?The only reason not to is because of traditional bias.What Jesus said is this:"Before Abraham was born,I am he,"meaning,I am the Messiah that Abraham looked forward to.This is a very reasonable statement from one who thinks that God had the Messiah in mind from the beginning."
And we need no inference for that notion,as we have explicit scriptural statements that prove He did.
Tuesday, August 3, 2010
Paradise on Earth
This is the first effort I ever made at a youtube video a long time ago.It's basically just scriptures proving that God's kingdom will include this earth made anew.May his will soon be done on earth as it is in heaven!
I think all the scriptures that seem to indicate people will live in heaven forever are misused,as I now believe "heavenly kingdom" means of divine origin and when we have treasures stored up "in heaven" it means God has blessings for us there ready to bestow upon us.etc..And no,I'm not a JW,though I used to be.
I think all the scriptures that seem to indicate people will live in heaven forever are misused,as I now believe "heavenly kingdom" means of divine origin and when we have treasures stored up "in heaven" it means God has blessings for us there ready to bestow upon us.etc..And no,I'm not a JW,though I used to be.
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