1 John 4:12:No one has ever seen God.
When mankind fell,God couldn't be reached directly by them without some sort of cleansing or mediation.He couldn't literally dwell amongst them any longer or even be seen by them without their perishing.The ground was cursed,as was humankind and animals etc. after sin entered the picture because of God's perfect justice.Sin deserves recompense.The wages of sin is ultimately death,understandably.God,however,remains holy,perfectly pure and inherently incorruptible,immortal,and benevolent.He is not to be compared to a man in that he could never die or be tempted or suffer corruption as man can.Make no mistake..the milk of the word makes it clear that God CANNOT be seen by men currently except IN those he inhabits by spirit as he speaks and works through them.Yes people can "see" God in those he inhabits. As they deliver his word and speak in his name.As they fulfill his word and demonstrate his wisdom,like Yeshua did far above all others who ever had.
Let's examine with great care and contemplation,seriously and soberly,precisely what occurs when one of the greatest servants and prophets of Yahweh's ever,Moses,wants to see God face to face:
Exodus 33:17 And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “This thing, too, of which you have spoken, I shall do, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.” 18 At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.” 19 But he said: “I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.” 20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”21 And Jehovah said further: “Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. 22 And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. 23 After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.”
This is a description of someone so remarkable and glorious that Moses didn't even have to see his full glory to have his own face shine from the encounter.(Ex. 34:29)
It is truths such as these and that this same God created the wonders of the universe and mankind that inspires poetic men like the Psalmists and others to ask questions like these:
Psalm 8:3 When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,4 what is man that you are mindful of him,and the son of man that you care for him?
It is precisely because of God's "otherness" and incomprehensibility( in that we're so fallen while he's indescribably holy and to a great extent unknowable by human peabrains) that impelled thoughtful and conscientious men (who recognize our vast inferiority to our maker ) to ask God for some realistic way to reach him.Job said:
"God is not a mortal like me, so I cannot argue with him or take him to trial.If only there were a mediator between us, someone who could bring us together."(Job 9:32,33)
Yes,we naturally feel unworthy to approach God,even to receive eternal life though we have an innate desire for immortality, because of our corruption and fallen state.Yes,even as we do good,bad is in us somewhere.However,God, in his infinite love,affection,consideration,and awesome mercy provided an escape route and even foreordained a mediator and savior to rescue,cleanse,redeem,and reconcile us to him.These words of Job foreshadowed all that God has done for us in Christ!When the full limit of time (Gal. 4:4)had arrived for God's purposes for man to be fulfilled from the beginning to the end of time,Yah sent forth(commissioned)a perfect man born of his spirit through a virgin womb to fulfill what Job longed for and his prophecies from the first book (Gen. 3:15) to the last!
2 Corinthians 5:19: in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation
Jesus was said to be Immanuel,God with us.Trinitarians will automatically,on autopilot,think he's the preexistent Son of God with us.But no,he's the father with us *in* the Son.And it is this Son who is the "incarnation" of God's *word*..of the father himself in a sense.God revealed himself,manifest his personality,wisdom,word and will in Christ so fully that Christ could say to see him was to see the father!
John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Make no mistake.I am not advocating modalism or a trinity but rather the bible's clear communication of God in his Son.God revealed in the Last Adam(a perfect sinless man!) by spirit.So Christ wasn't the "incarnation" of a preexistent Son but rather a revelation of God the Father's own self expression and will for mankind,his own love and works and determination to reach us in the way that Job had so desired! As well as the many of us along with Job who recognize a deep seated profound need to reach God in good conscience.(1 Pet. 3:21,Heb. 9:14)God in Christ provided not only a model of his own personality reflected in his beloved for us to hopefully adopt as well but an imputed righteousness to all who exercise faith and love according to the spirit's proddings.God works so exceptionally and fully THROUGH the agency of his beloved Son that Jesus was definitely God with us in many respects!This doesn't make him either that same God(just because God was in him) OR a person of his own God(because God was with him,again.)Finally what Job had hoped for God to make happen,Yahweh has fulfilled for all of us who crave a worthy mediator and blemishless redeemer!
Said of our Messiah:
Colossians 2:9: For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
because..
Colossians 1:19: For in him all the fullness of God was *pleased to dwell,*
The fullness in Christ was of the father,not the Son.In fact Christ emptied(humbled) himself by fasting and constant prayer,by goodness and faithfulness,so that the father could fill him with that spirit as we're supposed to do.It was the father alone,the God of Abraham,Isaac,Jacob,and Jesus that dwelled in Jesus fully with pleasure BY means of his spirit.And this is why Jesus did and said what God would say and do!Even Moses was "God" to Pharaoh because he represented God to Pharaoh and God worked through him quite exceptionally.(Ex. 4:16,7:1)So how much more the Greater Moses,the Last Adam that Moses prefigured be so termed "God" by the monotheistic 1st century faithful Jews and Christians perhaps on occasion.All it meant at that time in history was that Jesus represented God and had power over others,a God given authority.It is through this historical lens we need to look for accuracy in how to determine what it means when others besides the Most High are so termed "God" and not our modern lens of presuppositions gone askew.He was God's Grand and irreplaceable Amen!His Son who he can dramatically pour out his affections and love upon and then through,by making him mediator and Lord,do the same to us!Because,again,we're too unholy to directly reach God.He provided a way,Jesus, through whom he spoke truth and gave us life!(John 14:6)The incarnation of his self expression,character,and revelation.His Son was not the same God,but rather a true man,the Last Adam,born from above as our forerunner to the same kind of adoption and new birth.We're (Christians are) vessels and stones being built up into a spiritual temple for God to inhabit by spirit.Christ made this possible.:)
Examine Jesus' amazing Messianic claim:
Matthew 11:27: All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
We have the revelation from Jesus himself that we too can have this intimate knowledge and relationship with God similar to what he has with him!Christ,as the way,truth and life opened up the way for us to be anointed sons and daughters of God,to likewise be beloved children and to receive of the "fullness of God."
Ephesians 3:19: and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
It is precisely because of Jesus's true humanity,true temptations,true sufferings,and genuine death that God gave him authority to judge.
John 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment,* because *he is the Son of Man.
This is wonderful because we know we have someone like us(only glorified and exalted beyond what anyone else will ever be) interceeding for us
No one in the presence of Christ thought he was the God of Deut. 6:4.When the crowds saw his miracles they would glorify God for giving such authority to a MAN,the Messiah.It is because Jesus was a man like us that God gave him the authority he has because he can empathize with and understand us like someone who has never been a man ever could.
Why must we go beyond the bible's simple revelations as follows?:
Matthew 9:8:When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had *given* such authority to men.
Matthew 28:18: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been *given* to me.
No these miracles didn't prove he was the God of the Shema, who he confirmed with the scribe in Mark ch. 12(verses 28-34) was his father ALONE,but rather that God was with and in him working fully through him by spirit.As proclaimed in:
Acts 2:22: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know
Jesus doesn't accomplish or know anything without God's spirit working through or bearing witness to him.He doesn't judge..doesn't even know the Revelation(1:1) with out God's granting and allowance.
Acts 17:31 because he(Yahweh) has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a *man* whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.
So this text proves it is God in Christ judging but it is because of Christ's own sufferings and genuinely being a glorified-beyond-measure true man that he has the gifts he does.:)
Some significant profound texts worthy of serious contemplation and consideration by those inundated in their presuppositions are these that tell us who Christ was.We should take heed and care deeply.
Hebrews 2:16:For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17For this reason *he had to be made like his brothers in every way,* in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
I don't know about you but I would never call someone *fully God*(except in that God indwelled him fully just like he can Christians) just like mortal men in every way.In other words,Jesus was a real man,not just a *nature* of one.I think it's blasphemous to say otherwise.I don't personally know how trinitarians in good conscience can say Jesus was a "man nature" as opposed to a real man.If I told you I was God with an added "woman nature" would you say I was a genuine woman?
Hebrews 5:7: In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
He wasn't heard because he's God.He was heard because he FEARED GOD.This is a heartfelt declaration of Jesus's own human & poignant reliance upon his creator but also of the fact that reverence in our prayers can equal our own adoption,glorified resurrection,and exaltation.Not equal to Jesus's but nevertheless a gift from above worth seeking with everything we have!Just like Jesus we need to seek,pray,sacrifice,rely,trust,remain faithful and true,earnestly seeking the kingdom prize and God's favor.
More evidence *why* Jesus has been given mediatorship,kingship,and judging privileges:
Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness.
How awesome is it that because of his own weaknesses,sufferings,death and true state of being a man,though sinless due to prayer and faithfulness and goodness,that Jesus can now intercede for us in sheer empathy and heartfelt care?How moving is it that we have a glorified Lord who was a genuinely mortal man,really tempted,seriously obedient to a God he himself worshipped and served in fear?And that now that One has been given a position second only to Yahweh's at his own God's right hand?Ever interceding,ever loving and caring.Just a moment's consideration of his willingness,eagerness even,to feed the hungry,heal the sick,raise the dead,and feed the sheep would make even a heart of stone melt to the floor.When he walked the earth the kingdom was in everyone's midst indeed!
Is there any reason we should doubt that a God who is the very epitome of love and grace and generosity would fervently desire to gift his Own beloved Son the world?Why would Christ have to be the SAME God who gave him everything he has to be worthy to receive it all?God sustains Christ and lets Christ sustain us.Because he can.
John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
The father is automatically an immortal life giver.God gave Jesus the same gift,to be an immortal life giver,upon his resurrection from a genuine death.We cannot live outside nor apart from Christ.He was and is our provision to obtain eternal life from the father through Jesus' agency.For it isn't God nor angels who walk the earth as their main habitat but rather Jesus when he returns and all the sons in him,given to him.The Last Adam and all his faithful followers.Our identity is in him.Our lovely and extraordinary mediator.Who loves us deeply and intercedes for us without hesitation.This was the man who forgave sinners and healed them just because they had faith.We can love and trust and thank him..hopefully forever.This wonderful man prayed:
John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
And how did he love him before the world was founded?As his second person or as an archangel or perhaps some other way?Let's let scriptural authority establish the truth!
1 Peter 1:20: He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
I know there are many theological *mystery* theories that are read into a plethora of texts.People need to be deprogrammed from the conditioning that God had to become or even wanted to become a man when the easy succint biblical truth is that he foreordained a Son to be the Last Adam.A vessel through whom he could work and make himself,the father, known like never before!This man was an incarnation of God's will,word,self expression,self revelation,person,love,mercy,capacity to redeem and reconcile,care,consideration,you name it.Jesus was and is so full of the father,as opposed to a preexistent son,that we know God because of him more than we ever could have without him.So much like us in every way that God gave him all authority to mediate and judge on behalf of those with whom he could legitimately empathize,having suffered similar ordeals.That,my friends,is the beautiful truth.Jesus was and is the epitome of God working fully through and inhabiting a perfect man,as opposed to the trinitarian definition of a *Godman.*A "nature" nor a "body" with no Jesus the *person* in it could possibly be responsible for our redemption.It's time to throw the trinity philosophies by the wayside and embrace the simple truth.These philosophies lead to more lies and deceptions like the supposed inability to annihilate a soul and even hellfire where these supposedly unkillable souls must have a place to dwell in unimaginable horrors.I honestly believe there could be a truth revolution in regards to these three phenomenally tragic orthodox lies if people would first admit that Jesus *himself* (as opposed to simply a "nature" or "body" with no *Jesus* involved)actually died for the salvation of mankind.Then eyes and minds would light up with revelatory truth and we'd have a Christian movement on our hands.We'd have Muslims,Jehovah's Witnesses,Jews,atheists and others more attracted to the Christian message.One without incomprehensible mysteries that make zero sense.
Purpose statement:
I am not judging anyone's eternal salvation when I expose what I think are their false doctrines.I have no idea who is or isn't genuinely born again and loved (unto salvation)by Yahweh.I am here,simply,to expose the lies,injustices,hypocrisies,and bloodguilt I perceive in the Watchtower organization and much of "Orthodoxy."To bring every thought into captivity to Christ's as I tell what I believe is the truth,promoting justice(and that would include the cessation of gross condemnation of people who think Jesus is Lord and Christ and king without being the same God his own God is,without confessing The Messiah as the second person of a triune Greek substance.MANY have been tortured,banished,killed even, for not being willing to embrace a trinity).I hope everyone will know or come to know that their systems of worship originating from Rome's apostasies(whose origins are ultimately Babylon mysteries) are bloodguilty every bit as badly,if not much more so,than the WT society that they so freely condemn hypocritically.May God free us all from these false religious systems and their unjustified dogmatisms in his Son whose spirit can only guide us into all truth if we love him more than our comfortable heritage and traditions."Christians" shouldn't really be condemning people to a Dante's infinite inferno for confessing 1 Tim. 2:5 ,John 17:3 and Deut. 6:4 as their creeds instead of some Nicene Hellenization of the much less "mysterious" biblical record.Yes,doctrine is important,and that is why I don't *just* preach "Jesus" and "love" but also what Jesus taught while I expose what I think he would've as well.Again:lies,injustice,hypocrisy,and bloodguilt.We all need to repent daily,seek first the kingdom,& above all love God,Jesus,and people.Let's stop trying to kill people with venomous condemnation to a lake of fire that supposedly never consumes just because they don't believe a philosophical Platonic inference you try to bully them into embracing.I'm perfectly willing to call anyone who says they're a Christian my brother or sister(because I refuse to be so presumptuous as to assume who Jesus would or would not call his brothers and sisters) but they will only call me a heretic who's dead.People need to wake up and start caring.Because WHAT IF me and my unitarian brothers and sisters are loved & approved by Jesus while you trash us and condemn us to your twisted version of gehenna?Fact is if I just make ONE person actually think..if I just plant some little seed anywhere at any time that God can make grow..then I am perfectly content to do so.Even if these blogs do little else than encourage my fellow unitarian brothers and sisters to understand they're not alone and other people "get it"..then I'm also perfectly content with that as well.
Showing posts with label Christology. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Christology. Show all posts
Friday, November 5, 2010
Sunday, August 15, 2010
Is Jesus Yahweh?
For those of you who have no idea why some Christians don't believe in a trinity,here is a good half hour presentation by Dan Mages that might help you.At the very least,hopefully you'll be able to recognize that unitarians actually have good reasons to reject the trinity doctrine and to heed texts like Deut. 6:4,John 17:3,1 Cor. 8:5,6,Mark 12:28-34,Eph. 1:3 etc. at face value.This is Dan's opening statement in a debate he had a while ago with trinitarian Ed Enochs.
You can purchase the entire debate right here:
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Catalog/Religion-and-Spirituality/Comparative-Religion/Trinity-Truth-or-Tragedy-Debate/19210
Lest there be any uproars,I do NOT think Jesus was *just* a man!I think he was divine because by the spirit of Yah was he made!He was sinless and perfect just like the first Adam was before sin.Only he's so much better than him because he was faithful & true,and has been rewarded with God's spirit immeasurably and an exaltation inimitable.He has been extolled to a position second only to God's,is king,Lord,and savior of the world.The fulfillment of God's kingdom plans,the Great Amen.
As for God being called the ONLY God,The ONLY savior,the ONLY one immortal..etc..and trinitarians saying this has to mean Jesus is God..all it takes is a little logic.Others BESIDES Yah and Jesus have been called saviors,gods,and will be immortal so what could this mean?Apparently,that no one is a god,a savior,or immortal without Yah making them those things.The scriptures cannot be broken and others ARE saviors,gods,and will be immortal,so reason MUST be utilized.No one could be any of those things without the Most High's allowance.And the other gods,saviors,and those granted immortality aren't people in God's being anymore than Christ is.
You literally have to enter scripture presupposing God is a substance composed of three separate individuals who aren't separate Gods but all equally God individually as just ONE God(not three!) to EVER think scripture logically says anything of the sort!It has to be read into every supposed trinity "proof text" with the incarnation in the front of one's mind.The imaginary incarnation based upon the misuse of a literal few texts that the bible doesn't communicate.A dogma of inference,with name calling and extreme judgmentalness attached(in that people will burn alive eternally for believing Jesus's father is the only True God acc to it's adherents!) is seriously sad,folks.It is time to question this bloodguilty dogma.Time for a NEW reformation.
You can purchase the entire debate right here:
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Catalog/Religion-and-Spirituality/Comparative-Religion/Trinity-Truth-or-Tragedy-Debate/19210
Lest there be any uproars,I do NOT think Jesus was *just* a man!I think he was divine because by the spirit of Yah was he made!He was sinless and perfect just like the first Adam was before sin.Only he's so much better than him because he was faithful & true,and has been rewarded with God's spirit immeasurably and an exaltation inimitable.He has been extolled to a position second only to God's,is king,Lord,and savior of the world.The fulfillment of God's kingdom plans,the Great Amen.
As for God being called the ONLY God,The ONLY savior,the ONLY one immortal..etc..and trinitarians saying this has to mean Jesus is God..all it takes is a little logic.Others BESIDES Yah and Jesus have been called saviors,gods,and will be immortal so what could this mean?Apparently,that no one is a god,a savior,or immortal without Yah making them those things.The scriptures cannot be broken and others ARE saviors,gods,and will be immortal,so reason MUST be utilized.No one could be any of those things without the Most High's allowance.And the other gods,saviors,and those granted immortality aren't people in God's being anymore than Christ is.
You literally have to enter scripture presupposing God is a substance composed of three separate individuals who aren't separate Gods but all equally God individually as just ONE God(not three!) to EVER think scripture logically says anything of the sort!It has to be read into every supposed trinity "proof text" with the incarnation in the front of one's mind.The imaginary incarnation based upon the misuse of a literal few texts that the bible doesn't communicate.A dogma of inference,with name calling and extreme judgmentalness attached(in that people will burn alive eternally for believing Jesus's father is the only True God acc to it's adherents!) is seriously sad,folks.It is time to question this bloodguilty dogma.Time for a NEW reformation.
Tuesday, July 14, 2009
Jesus is...
I'm gonna do some scriptural hopping to find out the clear biblical formula as opposed to any creeds that were formulated in councils of men for who exactly Jesus is.
Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. —1 John 5:1-5
The bible says that we can be born of God and that we are if we confess Christ and that God raised him from the dead ..So if we are born of God and we aren't the same God he is why is Christ if he is born of God as well?
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” —1 John 4:14, 15
And what does Son of God mean exactly?
Matthew 3:17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
John 10:36: do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?
So Jesus is God's son and that is what son of God means. He is the most special one,made firstborn heir to a kingdom like no other but yet he remains a son.
Solomon, Adam, and Israel all sons of God in a special way.If God calls you his son it does not mean you are him but that he loves you dearly and you are favored.
One question I've heard is why did the Jews want to stone him for saying he was God's son if so many are..I can only assume because they thought he was somehow usurping God's sole rights but they were wrong.Scriptures let us know people were amazed that God had given such authority to a man!So no one thought he WAS GOD!They also knew he was making claims to be the Messiah but they simply didn't believe it.
He is “the apostle and high priest of our confession”—the “one mediator between God and men” (Heb. 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5).
So here we have some more clear succint formulas of who Christ is ..high priest and mediator.
So he is high priest and high priests in scripture are to be served which does not make them God but those who have been appointed by God himself to be so.
According to the manner of Melchizedek is his priesthood..one that is not from appointment from man but from God and eternal once having begun.
“God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ” —Acts 2:36
Interestingly,trinitarians have a God who had to be made Lord or his human nature did I should say which really doesn't make any sense at all since he is still one hundred percent man right?So why did his human nature have to be made Lord if he already was 100 percent God and his human nature supposedly retained nothing but humanity?Either his human nature is no longer really a human nature because it had to be made Lord supposedly again OR it is still 100 percent human as I've heard trinitarians say..Which is it?Both make moot of scripture..that Jesus was a perfect man who was exalted to the right hand of his father because he obeyed God not because he is God.
I'm probably inadvertantly misrepresenting something here in regards to the "2 natures" thing in my ditziness..if so,forgive me.
“…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
I already covered how Jesus had to be MADE LORD and I confess that readily and without hesitation.I also confess that God raised him from death and that he is alive to plead for me now at God's right hand.Yet to Christians I'm not a christian at all.Interesting.
What does it mean when the bible says Jesus dies?How does the bible define death?.First let us establish that souls can die and be destroyed and perish.(Ez 18:4,Matt 10:28,James5:20)Having said that let's go further
Ecc 9:5:the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all(excluding the possibility that one is breathing moving or existing elsewhere)
Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes
back to his ground;In that day his thoughts do perish.
So since Jesus died and this is God's definition of death there is no reason to think Jesus was anything but completely gone until his God raised him in the 3rd day.Any other confession is a manmade one based on philosophy of man and is frankly Gnostic..So on the third day God gave Christ back his spirit or his breath and animating force so that he could breathe move and live again.I confess this ..Do you?Do you confess that Christ was dead in a grave and not alive at all with no thoughts for 3 days?
Moving on..John lets us know why he wrote his book..why he wrote the book of John:
“These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name.” —John 20:31
Just because he has been appointed to a position that no other son has ever been exalted does not mean he is anything but God's most beloved exalted son.
Isaiah 11:1-3 "1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"
Matthew 12:18 "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him (Jesus), and he will proclaim justice to the nations."
So we know from these that God's spirit rests upon his awesome servant Jesus..Jesus is not a servant of his own being but a servant of his God who allows him to live and breathe and gives him his orders and will..
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·rene´, a man publicly shown by God to you through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know, 24 But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.
So death held him fast for three days but did not continue to.As promised,his God raised him on the 3rd day.
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus
So again we have Jesus being nothing but DISTINGUISHED from the Most High of the OT as the most high's servant and son.never said to be a member of his being..anywhere ..ever..
Acts 3:22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. you must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you. 23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 26 To you first God, after raising up his Servant, sent him forth to bless you by turning each one away from your wicked deeds.”
Here were more testimonies from God-breathed scripture who Jesus is.No need to infer anything further than what's given.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
So what we have here is a lovely picture of someone like the SON OF MAN being GIVEN a rulership from a loving father aka the Ancient of Days and being distinguished from that one as the one who had to be given what he has and would have to here be excluded from himself being the Ancient of Days unless you're willing to only be traditional and philosophical as opposed to succintly biblical..The Ancient of Days would be the supreme sovereign Lord of the universe the Most High Jehovah God almighty.. God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob God of my appointed king and consecrated Lord Jesus Christ..
Again I would like you ask why a human nature had to be given anything given the fact that it is still one hundred percent human and the God nature should've already had this.And has it ever stricken you as bizarre at all to blame every reliance and declaration of inferiority of Jesus's to a nature and not just Jesus himself,who never qualified this for us?
1 Corinthians 15:27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Let's never forget to praise the God of Jesus Christ and let us cease to worship anyone else as the same God who is the God of Jesus Christ.
John 17:3:. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
And this isn't a "joint object" as I've heard James White say or two persons existing in the same God as trinitarians boldly say but a father who is the only true God and his son who he sent forth to save us who will always serve him and worship him as his one and only True Most High God.And because of Jesus faith obedience and goodness and love God has exalted him to be our Lord and King and second most high over all the universe..Praise God for his power to do this.Praise Jesus for his exalted status and love and goodness and exceptionalness..Praise Jesus for all the same reasons that God blessed his most exalted servant and son.Because God loves him and tells us to.Because he is deserving king and Lord.
So if you're the one who thinks that these statements and BIBLICALLY based "givens" are not good enough "formulas" for who Christ really is then I would say you have a problem with scripture itself ..If Jesus being called God on a literal few occasions in a representational and authoritative sense,authority that he had to be GIVEN cannot be reconciled in your mind with the sheer irrefutable Jewish Monotheism without having to add 2 persons to God's "being" then imo there's a problem.In light of the clear and tenable proof that there is precedent in scripture for others to bear the name of God and the title of God that he places within them. They are acting on his behalf.If they have been given power from the Most High himself.
3 simple truths..1.No one may see God and live.Jesus has been seen and not just in manifestations and agents revealing him but literally seen and people continued to live.2.God cannot die and Jesus can and did.3.Calling someone who is God "God's son" would be misleading and ridiculous.
Reminds me of Jesus saying we need to be like children..I knew as a child God's son wasn't God and told the preachers around me..I did not listen to them when they insisted he was.I knew it wasn't possible.And quickly recognized scriptural precedent for others bearing the title god..And doesn't the bible say that the kingdom belongs to childlike ones?Is it really appropriate to not trust that God would've revealed a distinctive formula so we would at least know he was three persons?Even IF we couldn't grasp it?Do you really think he wanted to conceal his identity of a composition of three persons so that 400 yrs later trinitarians could arrogantly proclaim that you cannot know who he is except through divine revelation and that we should not question this "orthodox" "truth" and are in fact threatened with title "heretic" and "cultist" if we do.Suddenly the logic and reason and truth seeking God endowed and blessed me with isn't valid and must be ignored?Suddenly I am unchristian for only being willing to confess Christ as Messiah,Son of the Living God?
For those of you who condemn people like me to either hell or something else for not confessing that Christ is the second person of a triune God then your condemnation is unfounded given my ready willingness to confess that Christ is the beloved most exalted of God's sons who has been anointed as Christ by the God he himself serves and worships ...all I can say is..who are you to judge someone for confessing what the bible says we must confess for salvation and then telling me I have none?
Now the scriptures I've provided are the overwhelming testimony of Christ's identity.The trinity "proof texts" are never clear and can all be found wanting even in the "orthodox" community itself..conflicting views and interpretations..So when you have a doctrine that forces you to infer,be dogmatic about irrefutably precarious texts to formulate doctrine not even based on scriptural terms,and throw reason by the wayside while embracing philosophical terminology the bible never uses..then houston we have a problemo.
In conclusion,Jesus is :1.High Priest..2.Appointed as Lord..3.Mediator..4.The Christ of God..4.God's Son..5.servant of and beloved One of God...6.Second only to God and worthy of our confession, faith, and honor.
Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. —1 John 5:1-5
The bible says that we can be born of God and that we are if we confess Christ and that God raised him from the dead ..So if we are born of God and we aren't the same God he is why is Christ if he is born of God as well?
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” —1 John 4:14, 15
And what does Son of God mean exactly?
Matthew 3:17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
John 10:36: do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?
So Jesus is God's son and that is what son of God means. He is the most special one,made firstborn heir to a kingdom like no other but yet he remains a son.
Solomon, Adam, and Israel all sons of God in a special way.If God calls you his son it does not mean you are him but that he loves you dearly and you are favored.
One question I've heard is why did the Jews want to stone him for saying he was God's son if so many are..I can only assume because they thought he was somehow usurping God's sole rights but they were wrong.Scriptures let us know people were amazed that God had given such authority to a man!So no one thought he WAS GOD!They also knew he was making claims to be the Messiah but they simply didn't believe it.
He is “the apostle and high priest of our confession”—the “one mediator between God and men” (Heb. 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5).
So here we have some more clear succint formulas of who Christ is ..high priest and mediator.
So he is high priest and high priests in scripture are to be served which does not make them God but those who have been appointed by God himself to be so.
According to the manner of Melchizedek is his priesthood..one that is not from appointment from man but from God and eternal once having begun.
“God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ” —Acts 2:36
Interestingly,trinitarians have a God who had to be made Lord or his human nature did I should say which really doesn't make any sense at all since he is still one hundred percent man right?So why did his human nature have to be made Lord if he already was 100 percent God and his human nature supposedly retained nothing but humanity?Either his human nature is no longer really a human nature because it had to be made Lord supposedly again OR it is still 100 percent human as I've heard trinitarians say..Which is it?Both make moot of scripture..that Jesus was a perfect man who was exalted to the right hand of his father because he obeyed God not because he is God.
I'm probably inadvertantly misrepresenting something here in regards to the "2 natures" thing in my ditziness..if so,forgive me.
“…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
I already covered how Jesus had to be MADE LORD and I confess that readily and without hesitation.I also confess that God raised him from death and that he is alive to plead for me now at God's right hand.Yet to Christians I'm not a christian at all.Interesting.
What does it mean when the bible says Jesus dies?How does the bible define death?.First let us establish that souls can die and be destroyed and perish.(Ez 18:4,Matt 10:28,James5:20)Having said that let's go further
Ecc 9:5:the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all(excluding the possibility that one is breathing moving or existing elsewhere)
Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes
back to his ground;In that day his thoughts do perish.
So since Jesus died and this is God's definition of death there is no reason to think Jesus was anything but completely gone until his God raised him in the 3rd day.Any other confession is a manmade one based on philosophy of man and is frankly Gnostic..So on the third day God gave Christ back his spirit or his breath and animating force so that he could breathe move and live again.I confess this ..Do you?Do you confess that Christ was dead in a grave and not alive at all with no thoughts for 3 days?
Moving on..John lets us know why he wrote his book..why he wrote the book of John:
“These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name.” —John 20:31
Just because he has been appointed to a position that no other son has ever been exalted does not mean he is anything but God's most beloved exalted son.
Isaiah 11:1-3 "1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"
Matthew 12:18 "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him (Jesus), and he will proclaim justice to the nations."
So we know from these that God's spirit rests upon his awesome servant Jesus..Jesus is not a servant of his own being but a servant of his God who allows him to live and breathe and gives him his orders and will..
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·rene´, a man publicly shown by God to you through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know, 24 But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.
So death held him fast for three days but did not continue to.As promised,his God raised him on the 3rd day.
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus
So again we have Jesus being nothing but DISTINGUISHED from the Most High of the OT as the most high's servant and son.never said to be a member of his being..anywhere ..ever..
Acts 3:22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. you must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you. 23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 26 To you first God, after raising up his Servant, sent him forth to bless you by turning each one away from your wicked deeds.”
Here were more testimonies from God-breathed scripture who Jesus is.No need to infer anything further than what's given.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
So what we have here is a lovely picture of someone like the SON OF MAN being GIVEN a rulership from a loving father aka the Ancient of Days and being distinguished from that one as the one who had to be given what he has and would have to here be excluded from himself being the Ancient of Days unless you're willing to only be traditional and philosophical as opposed to succintly biblical..The Ancient of Days would be the supreme sovereign Lord of the universe the Most High Jehovah God almighty.. God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob God of my appointed king and consecrated Lord Jesus Christ..
Again I would like you ask why a human nature had to be given anything given the fact that it is still one hundred percent human and the God nature should've already had this.And has it ever stricken you as bizarre at all to blame every reliance and declaration of inferiority of Jesus's to a nature and not just Jesus himself,who never qualified this for us?
1 Corinthians 15:27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Let's never forget to praise the God of Jesus Christ and let us cease to worship anyone else as the same God who is the God of Jesus Christ.
John 17:3:. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
And this isn't a "joint object" as I've heard James White say or two persons existing in the same God as trinitarians boldly say but a father who is the only true God and his son who he sent forth to save us who will always serve him and worship him as his one and only True Most High God.And because of Jesus faith obedience and goodness and love God has exalted him to be our Lord and King and second most high over all the universe..Praise God for his power to do this.Praise Jesus for his exalted status and love and goodness and exceptionalness..Praise Jesus for all the same reasons that God blessed his most exalted servant and son.Because God loves him and tells us to.Because he is deserving king and Lord.
So if you're the one who thinks that these statements and BIBLICALLY based "givens" are not good enough "formulas" for who Christ really is then I would say you have a problem with scripture itself ..If Jesus being called God on a literal few occasions in a representational and authoritative sense,authority that he had to be GIVEN cannot be reconciled in your mind with the sheer irrefutable Jewish Monotheism without having to add 2 persons to God's "being" then imo there's a problem.In light of the clear and tenable proof that there is precedent in scripture for others to bear the name of God and the title of God that he places within them. They are acting on his behalf.If they have been given power from the Most High himself.
3 simple truths..1.No one may see God and live.Jesus has been seen and not just in manifestations and agents revealing him but literally seen and people continued to live.2.God cannot die and Jesus can and did.3.Calling someone who is God "God's son" would be misleading and ridiculous.
Reminds me of Jesus saying we need to be like children..I knew as a child God's son wasn't God and told the preachers around me..I did not listen to them when they insisted he was.I knew it wasn't possible.And quickly recognized scriptural precedent for others bearing the title god..And doesn't the bible say that the kingdom belongs to childlike ones?Is it really appropriate to not trust that God would've revealed a distinctive formula so we would at least know he was three persons?Even IF we couldn't grasp it?Do you really think he wanted to conceal his identity of a composition of three persons so that 400 yrs later trinitarians could arrogantly proclaim that you cannot know who he is except through divine revelation and that we should not question this "orthodox" "truth" and are in fact threatened with title "heretic" and "cultist" if we do.Suddenly the logic and reason and truth seeking God endowed and blessed me with isn't valid and must be ignored?Suddenly I am unchristian for only being willing to confess Christ as Messiah,Son of the Living God?
For those of you who condemn people like me to either hell or something else for not confessing that Christ is the second person of a triune God then your condemnation is unfounded given my ready willingness to confess that Christ is the beloved most exalted of God's sons who has been anointed as Christ by the God he himself serves and worships ...all I can say is..who are you to judge someone for confessing what the bible says we must confess for salvation and then telling me I have none?
Now the scriptures I've provided are the overwhelming testimony of Christ's identity.The trinity "proof texts" are never clear and can all be found wanting even in the "orthodox" community itself..conflicting views and interpretations..So when you have a doctrine that forces you to infer,be dogmatic about irrefutably precarious texts to formulate doctrine not even based on scriptural terms,and throw reason by the wayside while embracing philosophical terminology the bible never uses..then houston we have a problemo.
In conclusion,Jesus is :1.High Priest..2.Appointed as Lord..3.Mediator..4.The Christ of God..4.God's Son..5.servant of and beloved One of God...6.Second only to God and worthy of our confession, faith, and honor.
Wednesday, July 8, 2009
Melchizedek
This is all taken from the following page..I copied most of it to paste..there may have been a few more points in there I left out here if you'd like to check it out:)..There are also some other links on the page so visit it.This is for trinitarians who can't do their own research ;)..
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=335
Hebrews 7:3: without father or mother, without lineage, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest in perpetuity. (Montgomery)
Some, in reading the above scripture, see something in it that is not there, that Jesus has neither beginning of days, nor end of life. They do not seem to notice that when saying that *he* has neither beginning of days, Paul is speaking, not of Jesus, but of Melchizedek (also spelled Melchizedec), and not literally, but figuratively, to show the difference between the priesthood of Jesus and the Aaronic priesthood. If one reads this literally then we must believe that Mechizedek was always a priest from eterity past and that he is still now a priest. Jesus, of course, did begin his priesthood, but not with a lineage or beginning of days here on earth, but in heaven. There is no earthly lineage, no earthly beginning, from which his priesthood is attached. There is nothing here that says that Jesus existed for eternity past; such has to be read into the text.
Paul says that Melchizedek resembles the Son of God. Yes, Jesus is Son of God [He is not the God of whom is Son], and yes, Jesus does live forever, having been given such power by God, although this is not what is being spoken of in the verse, for it is concerning the priesthood that Paul is speaking, not existence. Paul is not saying that Jesus exists “from eternity”; this has to be imagined, assumed, and read into what he said. The only reason I can see for reading this into the text is to promote the idea that Jesus is Yahweh.
Very few believe that Melchizedek is God Almighty himself, having lived for eternity past, having no beginning, no ending, etc. Very few believe that Melchizedek literally continues to be a priest even to this day and forever. And, of course, we know that Jesus had a father. But Jesus had no earthly father from which he obtained a priesthood. To take the view that Paul is speaking literally would make Melchizedek Yahweh, and not our Lord Jesus, who is called the “only-begotten” (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9), “the Son of God” (Mark 1:1; Luke 1:32,35; John 1:34; 3:18; 5:25; 6:27; 9:35; 10:36; 11:4; 20:31; Acts 9:20, etc.), “the beginning of the creation of God.” (Revelation 3:14)
It would scarcely be necessary to show that Christ was not without a Father. Call to mind his words: “Father forgive them;” (Luke 23:34) Jesus was “born of a woman.” Wakefield’s version renders this (Hebrews 7:3) “Of whose father, mother, pedigree, birth, and death, we have no account.” There was a strict record kept of parentage, birth, death, &c., of every Levite, so that any one claiming to be a priest or Levite could prove it by the records.
It is testified of Melchizedek that he had no end of years, yet we do not see him living today; and it is testified of Christ that he did die, but he was made alive. This same Paul could say of Christ: “Jesus Christ, by the grace of God, tasted death for every man.” We conclude, then, that as Christ, in the days of his flesh, had a Father existing on the spiritual plane, and a mother who existed on the earthly plane. Jesus did “die for our sins,” “even the death of the cross,” therefore we have to conclude that Paul is not speaking literally about either the lack of father, birth or death of either Melchizedek or Jesus in a literal sense, but rather he is illustrating the lack of genealogy of the order of the Christ’s priesthood as shown by the account of Melchizedek, and thus Jesus’ priesthood is after the order of Mechizedek, not being of Aaronic genealogy, not having any earthly beginning or end.
When is Jesus made priest after the order of Melchizedek? Has he always been such a priest? No, but while this priesthood has no earthly beginning — he could not even have been such a priest while on earth, while in the days of his flesh, nor did Jesus have an earthly father from whom he could claim a priesthood — he was made priest after his return to heaven. (Hebrews 8:1-4; 9:11; 10:11-12) Thus like Melchizedek, Jesus’ priesthood does have a beginning in the heavens, but it is not seen on earth, nor is it given as a result of any earthly inheritance of the law and its priesthood. Like Mechizedek, Jesus does not literally have “no beginning of days”, but his heavenly priesthood has no beginning of days on earth, nor can be it be accounted for by human descent.
Jesus, now possessing endless life that will never die again, and he will be a priest for all eternity. — Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:8,16,24,25; Revelation 1:18.
To interject a meaning into Hebrews 7:3 that Jesus is God Almighty because of the description given to Melchizedek is to derive such a meaning out of context, and detract from what Paul was actually saying.
Nor did Jesus glorify himself as priest, for we read: “Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest.” (Hebrews 5:5) It is Yahweh himself that speaks to the Messiah saying: “You are a priest forever according the order (manner, Hebrew Dibrah, Strong’s Hebrew #1700) of Melchizedek.” (Psalm 110:4) Thus Paul says that Jesus is “named by God a high priest after the order (fashion, Greek, Taxis, Strong’s Greek #5010) of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11,17,21) And it is Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, who speaks to the Messiah, saying: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” — Psalm 110:1
Thus there is nothing in Hebrews 7:3 that proves that Jesus is Yahweh.
Even as Jesus is made a perpetual priest, Melchizedek is made by Yahweh in the prophecy of Psalm 110:4 (Hebrews 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11,15.21) like the Son of God pertaining to the priesthood of the Son of God. So that Jesus becomes a priest after the likeness of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 7:15,21) It does not prove anything, however, about the definition that trinitarians would like to give to eternity (as having no beginning), for Jesus has not always been a priest.
The fact that Melchizedek is made like the Son of God does not do away with the fact that it is of Melchizedek that Paul says that he is without beginning of days and or end of life.
There is no genealogical record of Melchizedek, his priesthood had no genealogical record of its beginning of days and no record of its ending of life. Paul is, of course, speaking symbolically, and not literally. Nevertheless, this is how his priesthood is a type of the priesthood of Jesus. We know that Melchizedek’s priesthood actually did have a beginning, and we know that Melchizedek himself did have a beginning, even though we do not know who his father and mother were, nor when he was born, when his priesthood began, etc. Nevertheless, his priesthood was not one that had a heritage from a lineage of priests, and in this Melchizedek is like Jesus. This is Paul’s argument in Hebrews chapters 3 through 10. “After the likeness of Melchizedek there arises another priest” (Hebrews 7:15), a priesthood superior to that of the Aaronic priesthood; Jesus did not receive a lineage as a priest from Aaron. Thus Melchizedek — is made, rendered similar, by the expression of Yahweh (Psalm 110:4), to the priesthood of Jesus. We also know that Jesus was not such a priest while on earth — thus he did not become a priest after the order of Melchizedek until after he was raised from the dead. He did become a perpetual priest after his ascension.
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=335
Hebrews 7:3: without father or mother, without lineage, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest in perpetuity. (Montgomery)
Some, in reading the above scripture, see something in it that is not there, that Jesus has neither beginning of days, nor end of life. They do not seem to notice that when saying that *he* has neither beginning of days, Paul is speaking, not of Jesus, but of Melchizedek (also spelled Melchizedec), and not literally, but figuratively, to show the difference between the priesthood of Jesus and the Aaronic priesthood. If one reads this literally then we must believe that Mechizedek was always a priest from eterity past and that he is still now a priest. Jesus, of course, did begin his priesthood, but not with a lineage or beginning of days here on earth, but in heaven. There is no earthly lineage, no earthly beginning, from which his priesthood is attached. There is nothing here that says that Jesus existed for eternity past; such has to be read into the text.
Paul says that Melchizedek resembles the Son of God. Yes, Jesus is Son of God [He is not the God of whom is Son], and yes, Jesus does live forever, having been given such power by God, although this is not what is being spoken of in the verse, for it is concerning the priesthood that Paul is speaking, not existence. Paul is not saying that Jesus exists “from eternity”; this has to be imagined, assumed, and read into what he said. The only reason I can see for reading this into the text is to promote the idea that Jesus is Yahweh.
Very few believe that Melchizedek is God Almighty himself, having lived for eternity past, having no beginning, no ending, etc. Very few believe that Melchizedek literally continues to be a priest even to this day and forever. And, of course, we know that Jesus had a father. But Jesus had no earthly father from which he obtained a priesthood. To take the view that Paul is speaking literally would make Melchizedek Yahweh, and not our Lord Jesus, who is called the “only-begotten” (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9), “the Son of God” (Mark 1:1; Luke 1:32,35; John 1:34; 3:18; 5:25; 6:27; 9:35; 10:36; 11:4; 20:31; Acts 9:20, etc.), “the beginning of the creation of God.” (Revelation 3:14)
It would scarcely be necessary to show that Christ was not without a Father. Call to mind his words: “Father forgive them;” (Luke 23:34) Jesus was “born of a woman.” Wakefield’s version renders this (Hebrews 7:3) “Of whose father, mother, pedigree, birth, and death, we have no account.” There was a strict record kept of parentage, birth, death, &c., of every Levite, so that any one claiming to be a priest or Levite could prove it by the records.
It is testified of Melchizedek that he had no end of years, yet we do not see him living today; and it is testified of Christ that he did die, but he was made alive. This same Paul could say of Christ: “Jesus Christ, by the grace of God, tasted death for every man.” We conclude, then, that as Christ, in the days of his flesh, had a Father existing on the spiritual plane, and a mother who existed on the earthly plane. Jesus did “die for our sins,” “even the death of the cross,” therefore we have to conclude that Paul is not speaking literally about either the lack of father, birth or death of either Melchizedek or Jesus in a literal sense, but rather he is illustrating the lack of genealogy of the order of the Christ’s priesthood as shown by the account of Melchizedek, and thus Jesus’ priesthood is after the order of Mechizedek, not being of Aaronic genealogy, not having any earthly beginning or end.
When is Jesus made priest after the order of Melchizedek? Has he always been such a priest? No, but while this priesthood has no earthly beginning — he could not even have been such a priest while on earth, while in the days of his flesh, nor did Jesus have an earthly father from whom he could claim a priesthood — he was made priest after his return to heaven. (Hebrews 8:1-4; 9:11; 10:11-12) Thus like Melchizedek, Jesus’ priesthood does have a beginning in the heavens, but it is not seen on earth, nor is it given as a result of any earthly inheritance of the law and its priesthood. Like Mechizedek, Jesus does not literally have “no beginning of days”, but his heavenly priesthood has no beginning of days on earth, nor can be it be accounted for by human descent.
Jesus, now possessing endless life that will never die again, and he will be a priest for all eternity. — Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:8,16,24,25; Revelation 1:18.
To interject a meaning into Hebrews 7:3 that Jesus is God Almighty because of the description given to Melchizedek is to derive such a meaning out of context, and detract from what Paul was actually saying.
Nor did Jesus glorify himself as priest, for we read: “Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest.” (Hebrews 5:5) It is Yahweh himself that speaks to the Messiah saying: “You are a priest forever according the order (manner, Hebrew Dibrah, Strong’s Hebrew #1700) of Melchizedek.” (Psalm 110:4) Thus Paul says that Jesus is “named by God a high priest after the order (fashion, Greek, Taxis, Strong’s Greek #5010) of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11,17,21) And it is Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, who speaks to the Messiah, saying: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” — Psalm 110:1
Thus there is nothing in Hebrews 7:3 that proves that Jesus is Yahweh.
Even as Jesus is made a perpetual priest, Melchizedek is made by Yahweh in the prophecy of Psalm 110:4 (Hebrews 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11,15.21) like the Son of God pertaining to the priesthood of the Son of God. So that Jesus becomes a priest after the likeness of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 7:15,21) It does not prove anything, however, about the definition that trinitarians would like to give to eternity (as having no beginning), for Jesus has not always been a priest.
The fact that Melchizedek is made like the Son of God does not do away with the fact that it is of Melchizedek that Paul says that he is without beginning of days and or end of life.
There is no genealogical record of Melchizedek, his priesthood had no genealogical record of its beginning of days and no record of its ending of life. Paul is, of course, speaking symbolically, and not literally. Nevertheless, this is how his priesthood is a type of the priesthood of Jesus. We know that Melchizedek’s priesthood actually did have a beginning, and we know that Melchizedek himself did have a beginning, even though we do not know who his father and mother were, nor when he was born, when his priesthood began, etc. Nevertheless, his priesthood was not one that had a heritage from a lineage of priests, and in this Melchizedek is like Jesus. This is Paul’s argument in Hebrews chapters 3 through 10. “After the likeness of Melchizedek there arises another priest” (Hebrews 7:15), a priesthood superior to that of the Aaronic priesthood; Jesus did not receive a lineage as a priest from Aaron. Thus Melchizedek — is made, rendered similar, by the expression of Yahweh (Psalm 110:4), to the priesthood of Jesus. We also know that Jesus was not such a priest while on earth — thus he did not become a priest after the order of Melchizedek until after he was raised from the dead. He did become a perpetual priest after his ascension.
Monday, May 25, 2009
Who is Jesus?(by Patrick Navas)
This is a portion of an essay written by Patrick Navas,author of "Divine Truth or Human Tradition"..just wanted to share.He isn't a Jehovah's Witness.
Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Messiah
Although controversy still rages in religious circles regarding the true identity of Jesus, in the first century, the original, foundational truth of the gospel was that Jesus of Nazareth was the long-awaited “Christ” or “Messiah”—God’s “beloved” and “anointed” Son. The sense of the term Messiah (‘anointed one’) is brought out in Jesus’ own words regarding himself as “the one whom the Father consecrated and sent forth into the world,” and when God himself testified of Jesus during his baptism, “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” He is, according to Scripture, the one whom God “sent” and the one on whom God, the Father, has “set his seal.” —John 10:36; Matt. 3:16; John 3:34; 5:30; 7:29; 6:27
Faith in, and confession of, Jesus as “the Christ” is essential, the true foundation of Christian faith; so much that the faith itself was, in the minds’ of the apostles, directly tied to one’s being “born of God”—a truth delivered by way of direct revelation from the Father. This was demonstrated in Matthew’s Gospel, when Jesus pointedly asked his disciples, “who do you say that I am?”—to which the disciple Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” In turn, Jesus responded, “Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” —Matt. 16:13-18
In perfect harmony, at the end of his Gospel account, the apostle John summarized the purpose of his own writings in this way:
“These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name.” —John 20:31
Unlike the doctrinal formulations of the historic “creeds,” the disclosure of Jesus’ identity as “the Christ” and “Son of God” is neither an interpretation nor a theological inference, but a divinely-revealed truth upon which the gospel stands. This is the true article of the Christian faith, resting not on the traditions of men but on the testimony of God Himself. As the apostle John wrote in his first epistle:
“If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is surely greater; for this is the testimony of God, that He has borne witness to His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to His Son.” —1 John 5:9-10
The apostle likewise assured those whom he was writing to in the first century:
“…everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.” —1 John 5:1-5
The children of God are not identified by conformity to a man-made tradition, but, as the apostle wrote, by believing that Jesus is “the Christ” and because they “practice righteousness” (1 John 3:4-10). And because “the righteousness of God is revealed” in the gospel, those “who hunger and thirst after righteousness” find their fill in the words of “the righteous one,” God’s Son (Rom. 1:17; Matt. 5:6; Acts 3:14; 1 John 2:1), who imparts in believers confidence that his message was truly from God, as he made clear:
“My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.” —John 7:16-17
That is to say, the words of the Messiah are trustworthy and righteous, for he has “not spoken on [his] own authority, but the Father who sent [him] has Himself given [him] a commandment—what to say and what to speak,” the commandment that leads to “eternal life.” —John 12:49, 50
The apostle John bore witness to the same hope, based on the same sure foundation:
“And we ourselves have seen and do testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” —1 John 4:14, 15
In spite of the theological formulations of early “church” councils and traditional creeds, the life that Jesus has in himself, as God’s Son, was “granted” to him by one who is “greater” than himself—his Father—and he himself lives “because of” Him (John 5:36; 6:57; 14:28). He is, as Scripture says, “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of [God’s] glory” and “the exact representation of His very being” (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:2, 3). He is “the apostle and high priest of our confession”—the “one mediator between God and men” (Heb. 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5).
These are descriptions that reflect the true, divinely-revealed role and identity of Jesus, the Messiah. Unfortunately the so-called “orthodox” or “mainline” church institutions have, in a multitude of ways, defected from the original letter, and spirit, of Scripture—requiring the confession of doctrine and language that go beyond what is revealed there. As pervasive as they have proven to be historically, however, institution-based creedal formulas that go beyond the Scripture’s own language are unnecessary and often misleading. Because the Scriptures themselves are “able to make [one] wise unto salvation,” and because they spell the truth out with sufficient clarity on these matters, “the man of God” is under no obligation to recognize the authority of any other source (See for example: 1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3; 1 Tim. 2:5; Deut. 6:4; 2 Tim. 3:14-18).
The Lordship of Jesus Christ
In the Christian Scriptures Jesus is dignified with the status of “Lord” because of the all-encompassing authority given to him by God; as Jesus declared to his disciples after the resurrection: “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18; Psalm 110:1). Jesus was a faithful servant of God who lived a perfectly obedient life to the point of an agonizing death—“for this reason God has so highly exalted him and given him the name that is above every name…” (Acts 3:26; Isaiah 52:13; Phil. 2:8-11). Because of his enduring faithfulness as “the only begotten of the Father,” God has not only “seated him at His right hand” but “has placed all things under his feet,” appointing him “to be head over everything for the congregation” of God’s people (John 1:14; Eph. 1:20-22); as Peter gave assurance to the house of Israel:
“God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ” —Acts 2:36
This is the testimony of the apostles, who, throughout their public ministry, continually drew attention to the Messiah’s resurrection and God-given Lordship as essential to the good news of salvation:
“…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
Scripturally, however, to honor Jesus as “Lord” is not to conflate him with the “one God, the Father,” who is “one,” but to recognize the authority that his Father, God, has vested in him. That is why our obedience to, and confession of, Jesus as the exalted “Lord” always resounds “to the glory of God the Father.” —Phil. 2:11; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Deut. 6:4; Compare John 5:22, 23; 12:26
The dangers of “another gospel”
“…the good news that was proclaimed by me was not of human origin; for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”
—The apostle Paul, Galatians 1:11, NRSV
The good news preached by Jesus and his apostles is the same one Christians accept and live by today—requiring no additions, refinements, or alterations (Gal. 1:6-9). As it was in the first century, Christians today continue “devoting themselves to the apostles’ doctrine”—“sound doctrine” that is, thankfully, preserved for us in scriptural form to this day. —Tit. 1:9; 2:1; Acts 2:42; 2 Tim. 3:14-18
The apostles were well aware of the human tendency to corrupt and suppress the truth of the message they were entrusted with (Acts 20:29-32). They knew that, through various agencies, Satan falsely presented himself as “an angel of light,” and that his servants would “disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness.” They knew that the enemy deliberately worked to “blind the minds of unbelievers,” and of false teachers who would “secretly bring in destructive divisions” just as they would “distort the gospel of Christ.” That is why the apostles wrote much to address the threat of a “different gospel,” admonishing Christians to “examine everything carefully,” and to “not believe every spirit” but to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God,” since “many false prophets” and “deceivers have gone out into the world.” —2 Cor. 4:4; 11:14; 2 Pet. 2:1;1 John 4:1; 2 John 7; 1 Thess. 5:21; Gal. 1:7; 2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6
Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Messiah
Although controversy still rages in religious circles regarding the true identity of Jesus, in the first century, the original, foundational truth of the gospel was that Jesus of Nazareth was the long-awaited “Christ” or “Messiah”—God’s “beloved” and “anointed” Son. The sense of the term Messiah (‘anointed one’) is brought out in Jesus’ own words regarding himself as “the one whom the Father consecrated and sent forth into the world,” and when God himself testified of Jesus during his baptism, “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” He is, according to Scripture, the one whom God “sent” and the one on whom God, the Father, has “set his seal.” —John 10:36; Matt. 3:16; John 3:34; 5:30; 7:29; 6:27
Faith in, and confession of, Jesus as “the Christ” is essential, the true foundation of Christian faith; so much that the faith itself was, in the minds’ of the apostles, directly tied to one’s being “born of God”—a truth delivered by way of direct revelation from the Father. This was demonstrated in Matthew’s Gospel, when Jesus pointedly asked his disciples, “who do you say that I am?”—to which the disciple Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” In turn, Jesus responded, “Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” —Matt. 16:13-18
In perfect harmony, at the end of his Gospel account, the apostle John summarized the purpose of his own writings in this way:
“These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name.” —John 20:31
Unlike the doctrinal formulations of the historic “creeds,” the disclosure of Jesus’ identity as “the Christ” and “Son of God” is neither an interpretation nor a theological inference, but a divinely-revealed truth upon which the gospel stands. This is the true article of the Christian faith, resting not on the traditions of men but on the testimony of God Himself. As the apostle John wrote in his first epistle:
“If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is surely greater; for this is the testimony of God, that He has borne witness to His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to His Son.” —1 John 5:9-10
The apostle likewise assured those whom he was writing to in the first century:
“…everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.” —1 John 5:1-5
The children of God are not identified by conformity to a man-made tradition, but, as the apostle wrote, by believing that Jesus is “the Christ” and because they “practice righteousness” (1 John 3:4-10). And because “the righteousness of God is revealed” in the gospel, those “who hunger and thirst after righteousness” find their fill in the words of “the righteous one,” God’s Son (Rom. 1:17; Matt. 5:6; Acts 3:14; 1 John 2:1), who imparts in believers confidence that his message was truly from God, as he made clear:
“My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.” —John 7:16-17
That is to say, the words of the Messiah are trustworthy and righteous, for he has “not spoken on [his] own authority, but the Father who sent [him] has Himself given [him] a commandment—what to say and what to speak,” the commandment that leads to “eternal life.” —John 12:49, 50
The apostle John bore witness to the same hope, based on the same sure foundation:
“And we ourselves have seen and do testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” —1 John 4:14, 15
In spite of the theological formulations of early “church” councils and traditional creeds, the life that Jesus has in himself, as God’s Son, was “granted” to him by one who is “greater” than himself—his Father—and he himself lives “because of” Him (John 5:36; 6:57; 14:28). He is, as Scripture says, “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of [God’s] glory” and “the exact representation of His very being” (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:2, 3). He is “the apostle and high priest of our confession”—the “one mediator between God and men” (Heb. 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5).
These are descriptions that reflect the true, divinely-revealed role and identity of Jesus, the Messiah. Unfortunately the so-called “orthodox” or “mainline” church institutions have, in a multitude of ways, defected from the original letter, and spirit, of Scripture—requiring the confession of doctrine and language that go beyond what is revealed there. As pervasive as they have proven to be historically, however, institution-based creedal formulas that go beyond the Scripture’s own language are unnecessary and often misleading. Because the Scriptures themselves are “able to make [one] wise unto salvation,” and because they spell the truth out with sufficient clarity on these matters, “the man of God” is under no obligation to recognize the authority of any other source (See for example: 1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3; 1 Tim. 2:5; Deut. 6:4; 2 Tim. 3:14-18).
The Lordship of Jesus Christ
In the Christian Scriptures Jesus is dignified with the status of “Lord” because of the all-encompassing authority given to him by God; as Jesus declared to his disciples after the resurrection: “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18; Psalm 110:1). Jesus was a faithful servant of God who lived a perfectly obedient life to the point of an agonizing death—“for this reason God has so highly exalted him and given him the name that is above every name…” (Acts 3:26; Isaiah 52:13; Phil. 2:8-11). Because of his enduring faithfulness as “the only begotten of the Father,” God has not only “seated him at His right hand” but “has placed all things under his feet,” appointing him “to be head over everything for the congregation” of God’s people (John 1:14; Eph. 1:20-22); as Peter gave assurance to the house of Israel:
“God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ” —Acts 2:36
This is the testimony of the apostles, who, throughout their public ministry, continually drew attention to the Messiah’s resurrection and God-given Lordship as essential to the good news of salvation:
“…if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” —Rom. 10:9
Scripturally, however, to honor Jesus as “Lord” is not to conflate him with the “one God, the Father,” who is “one,” but to recognize the authority that his Father, God, has vested in him. That is why our obedience to, and confession of, Jesus as the exalted “Lord” always resounds “to the glory of God the Father.” —Phil. 2:11; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Deut. 6:4; Compare John 5:22, 23; 12:26
The dangers of “another gospel”
“…the good news that was proclaimed by me was not of human origin; for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”
—The apostle Paul, Galatians 1:11, NRSV
The good news preached by Jesus and his apostles is the same one Christians accept and live by today—requiring no additions, refinements, or alterations (Gal. 1:6-9). As it was in the first century, Christians today continue “devoting themselves to the apostles’ doctrine”—“sound doctrine” that is, thankfully, preserved for us in scriptural form to this day. —Tit. 1:9; 2:1; Acts 2:42; 2 Tim. 3:14-18
The apostles were well aware of the human tendency to corrupt and suppress the truth of the message they were entrusted with (Acts 20:29-32). They knew that, through various agencies, Satan falsely presented himself as “an angel of light,” and that his servants would “disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness.” They knew that the enemy deliberately worked to “blind the minds of unbelievers,” and of false teachers who would “secretly bring in destructive divisions” just as they would “distort the gospel of Christ.” That is why the apostles wrote much to address the threat of a “different gospel,” admonishing Christians to “examine everything carefully,” and to “not believe every spirit” but to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God,” since “many false prophets” and “deceivers have gone out into the world.” —2 Cor. 4:4; 11:14; 2 Pet. 2:1;1 John 4:1; 2 John 7; 1 Thess. 5:21; Gal. 1:7; 2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6
Thursday, February 26, 2009
Reasoning with trinitarians part 3
This part of the blog is not written by me but is taken from a website,for which I'll provide the link:
http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html
Some key points:(lots of texts to look up..git bizzee)
Either Jesus has to be the one true God, or else he is a false god. Carrying this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, Moses must be either the one and only true God or a false god, since he was made ELOHIM to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel must be either the one and only true a true God or a else be false gods, since they were ELOHIM. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 [See Acts 23:5]) The angels must be the only true God or else they are false gods, since they are ELOHIM. (Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim) The sons of God to whom the Logos came must be the only true God or they are false gods, since they are called EL, ELOHIM and THEOI. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 10:34,35) The *EL*of Laban's hand must either be the only true God, or else be a false god. (Genesis 31:29) The EL of the hand of Israel must the only true God, or else be a false god. (Deuteronomy The EL of your hand must be the only true God or else the EL of you hand must be a false god. (Proverbs 3:27) The EL of Ezekiel 32:21 -- the mighty rulers in the nations spoken of in context -- must all be the only true God or else false gods.
Jesus is not his God whom he was with, the only true God who sent him. -- John 17:1,3,5
Jesus denied that he was God by stating over and over that he was sent by the only true God, could do nothing of his own self, everything he had was given to him by God, etc. (Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,22,23,27-30,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26)
Hebrew words for "god", when applied to any other than Yahweh, can take on a more general meaning of might, strength, power.
We can say that there is much in the way of Hebraic cultural heritage that supports the idea that one can be scripturally be called or have the title of "God" in a sense other than that of Supreme Being, or the Supreme Power.
When considering the Hebrew word *EL*, that this word is used to mean other than God Almighty or a false god may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in denoted by *..*: "It is in the *power* of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no *might* in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our *power*." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the *great* mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the *power* of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Pray unto *a god* [mighty one] that cannot save." (Isaiah 45:20) "Who among the sons of the *mighty*." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*." (Psalm 29:1) "The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh]." (Psalm 50:1) "The *strong* among the mighty shall speak" (Ezekiel 32:21)
Now my thoughts:
If someone is one hundred percent God then they are not one hundred percent man unless you are willing to ignore simple truth in favor of wild philosophy and mathematical impossibility.Again,understanding the Hebrew times,God's agents WERE God(as designated reps whose words and actions were not their own but by means of the spirit and allowance of Jah) and God doesn't always mean false god OR true Almighty God and as seen from numerous texts can mean a mighty ,powerful being,and not always a false one.The false ones are not really either mighty,or powerful.So when Jah called David and Moses God he meant "mighty ones"..mighty by whose power?According to Isaiah 9:7 by whose zeal and power was Jesus made mighty?
Jesus profusely prayed for a reason(besides love),he feared,in his mortal flesh,that he might be abandoned,even though I'm sure he knew better.The flesh is weak.(and trinitarians think God could actually do this or even empty himself..twisting texts that say his SON did,NOT HIM)While trying to make sense of the fact that Jesus deserves praise,obeisance and glory ALONG with Jehovah,trinitarians have wrongfully assumed they HAVE to be the same God..because God is one right?Just a wee bit of reasoning should help one to realize that Jesus is glorifying the Almighty as His appointed chief agent and heavenly king.Remember the earthly kings were rendered service and obeisance,so one shouldn't marvel at Jesus having such,while STILL being just a SON,the MOST exalted son :)It is the same as honoring Jehovah ,as he is the one who appointed them and gave them power and might.(Jah will hand the kingdom over to Christ for a 1000 yrs so it is him,who possesses Jah's spirit without measure whom we are honoring and obeying to the glory of his father,who loves him more than we can fathom and who allows him and wills unto him all this amazing power)To put it blatantly simply,serving Jah's representatives and appointed kings is the same as serving him.Their words and dealings are NOT THEIR OWN when they are accomplishing his will.
Keep in mind also that Lord is applied to many as well ,and rightfully so,not because these people are Jehovah,but because lord is a title of the head of someone or the head of peoples(gen 18:20,matt 10:24,20:8,21:30,27:63,1 pet 3:6,mark 13:35,acts 25:26)Jah GIVES Jesus his designation,might and power just as he did Moses.Doesn't Jehovah deserve credit for what his servants do?So when Jehovah does something,then it says someone else did that same something,does it mean that the persons involved must be the same?Or maybe it means he uses agents and takes rightful credit?<--yep.Who could've done anything without his direction and spirit??(and designation)I challenge trinitarians to give me an instance where Jesus didn't have to be given something,again.Where was his God and father not credited?If it would be common sense for us to know the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron were from God's hand and spirit,why do we assume Jesus's weren't?Even when he said they were?!Even when the bible makes clear he has been and will be used for Jah to accomplish things through?If Jah's glory can surround an angel as his representative then why must Jesus be Jah just because he shares that glory too? **Luke 2:9-11: “And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city.’ ”(his reps gleam with his glory in more ways than one..the glory could be literal or it could be a miracle he performs through them,or a power he allows them to possess,ALL things to Jehovah's glory,the one who sends and the one who gives freely,especially to his most beloved!) **Isaiah 11:2:The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.(remember that dove descending?Jah's spirit without measure is always with his messiah!Notice,too that Jesus even has a healthy fear of the LORD..remember the constant supplication. **Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. 19 If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I myself will make him answer for it. ..So Jah's messages are in the mouths of his agents.Just like his miracles and salvation are in the ones he sends forth to accomplish those things. **Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face..So Ezekial credits himself with something Jehovah did,as his agent. **Jeremiah 1:9:Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth 10. See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant..So when we see that Jeremiah breaks down,overthrows,builds,plants etc..then couldn't it be said of either Jeremiah or Jehovah?And couldn't Jehovah say that he does all this alone since it is only by means of his spirit that Jeremiah could? **Jeremiah 2:2 :Go and announce to Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: I remember the unfailing loyalty of your youth, the love you had for me as a bride. I remember how you followed me into the desert, into a land that couldn't be farmed....again,they followed Jeremiah,and as Jah's rep,they were following Jah. **Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God. ..take note of Moses speaking AS God!..his words are not his own(in verse 6)!(who else's words were not his own?) **Job 42:11:and comforted him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him-->so did Jehovah cause the suffering of Job?Nope,but his allowing it made it attributable to him in that respect.So here we have Jah given credit for something Satan did because Jah didn't stop it.
**Gen. 40:8:Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me them, I pray you....Now the reason I pasted this text is this..Joseph,who said the words then proceeded to interpret the dreams!IF Jesus had said these words and then proceeded to do what Joseph did it would be cited all the time and used as proof of the trinity.Therefore when a servant(and yes Jesus served Jehovah and still does) of Jah's does something miraculous,what can we conclude?That they had no help?Then when they do accomplish something by means of God's spirit,I ask you,again,couldn't Jehovah say HE accomplished it ,alone even?
The book "Alleged Discrepancies in the Bible" by John W. Haley :
"It is consistent with Hebrew modes of thought that whatever occurs in the world, under the overruling providence of God, what he suffers to take place, should be attributed to his agency."
Imagine you have a God and father you know intimately well because he revealed his spirit fully to you and that you lived closer to him and ARE closer to him than any other child he has.Imagine your God needed you to accomplish something for him because for whatever reason he couldn't(his magnificence could not be beheld ,he could not possibly die etc) and he gave you the words to say and a thorough instruction guide to get things done,would you ignore all his wishes and commands?What if you loved him more than anyone in the world could ever fathom?What if he epitomized love himself AND promised you a fantastic reward upon completion of his assignment?What if he possessed some sort of majestic force he uses to help his will get accomplished and could pour it out anywhere or upon anyone he so desired?What if he used that force to be present with you and generously poured it upon you to help you make it through the assignment?And imagine upon completion of it,you get rewarded and he commands everyone to revere you with the same reverence they revere him as someone who ensured them their eternal lives in a perfect kingdom by what you accomplished.In no way by doing this though,was he negating his position as your boss and the one who gave you the power and will and even your very life to accomplish his will.And when you are freely and generously given all your power,will you ignore all that you have learned and all that you will learn from the one who gave it to you?Will you use the standards of the very one who you proclaim is your God and greater than you when you accomplish HIS WILL?Do you think he will abandon you in your future assignments ,you and your brothers that he allowed you to adopt as your own just because he loves you?He will always be there for you and you will always be his most beloved,faithful and true.Faithful and true and beloved to whom?Sent and used as agent and representative for whom?YOURSELF?When does all this suddenly MAKE YOU THE SAME GOD WHO SENT YOU AND GAVE YOU EVERYTHING?
The father GAVE Jesus EVERYTHING right?And what about the father being the only true God can't people grasp?(Mark 12:28-34)If Jesus was 1/3 of a godhead he wouldn't have distinguished himself from another third as lesser or had to be given anything from anyone.In no way shape or form can 1/3 of God be submissive to another 1/3 of God unless you are willing to open your window and toss logic clear to timbuktu in favor of biblically condemned philosophical leanings that were and apparently still are prevalent.Erroneous manmade "puffed up" "knowledge" outside of God's simple truth of his singularity and Jesus singularity,sonship,as messiah and king BY GOD'S appointment.God is now his own king?God is now his own God?God became a man?God died?God was tempted and possessed a will different than his own?God is his own father?God constantly gave 1/3 of himself credit for another 1/3's sayings and doings?1/3 of God inherited what another 1/3 of God had because 1/3 of God had emptied himself?You'll have to excuse me for my inability to grasp this wild philosophical greek-inspired conjecture,but didn't the bible say that he sent his SON?When did Son of God start meaning God?Who was the first trinitarian?And where does God or Jesus talk about their substances enough to start formulating creeds about it?Aren't all heavenly beings composed of a celestial nature?Who are trinitarians to define the nature and substance of the Almighty?Shouldn't we stick to what IS revealed?And if I am out of line saying 1/3 a lot because each person of the "godhead" is each 100% percent God then you'll just have to excuse me for saying you have 3 100% Gods.And if that angers you,you have to understand that is NOT my intention.I'm just being realistic and seeking to expose a doctrine I clearly oppose as a truth seeker and a holder to the singularity of the one and ONLY Almighty.(Deut 6:4,John 17:3,Ps. 83:18)It hurts me a little to see sincere people who have an awesome zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge,the very thing I am accused of.(Rom. 10:2)
from:
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas:
"When we take into account the inevitable "falling away" or "apostasy" foretold in the Christian scriptures,and at the same time appreciating the very real influence of invisible though hostile spiritual forces that surround us,as well as the overall weakness and fallibility intrinsic to the human condition,it becomes to a certain degree understandable that devout students of the bible have gone into different directions on such a crucial matter."
"Nearly every argument made to advance and uphold this established doctrine always relies on a notable excessive degree of theological inference,an unusual and innovative kind of thinking,and even,in certain cases,farfetched philosophical speculation based on preconceived views and already established theological concepts."
http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html
Some key points:(lots of texts to look up..git bizzee)
Either Jesus has to be the one true God, or else he is a false god. Carrying this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, Moses must be either the one and only true God or a false god, since he was made ELOHIM to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel must be either the one and only true a true God or a else be false gods, since they were ELOHIM. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 [See Acts 23:5]) The angels must be the only true God or else they are false gods, since they are ELOHIM. (Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim) The sons of God to whom the Logos came must be the only true God or they are false gods, since they are called EL, ELOHIM and THEOI. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 10:34,35) The *EL*of Laban's hand must either be the only true God, or else be a false god. (Genesis 31:29) The EL of the hand of Israel must the only true God, or else be a false god. (Deuteronomy The EL of your hand must be the only true God or else the EL of you hand must be a false god. (Proverbs 3:27) The EL of Ezekiel 32:21 -- the mighty rulers in the nations spoken of in context -- must all be the only true God or else false gods.
Jesus is not his God whom he was with, the only true God who sent him. -- John 17:1,3,5
Jesus denied that he was God by stating over and over that he was sent by the only true God, could do nothing of his own self, everything he had was given to him by God, etc. (Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,22,23,27-30,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26)
Hebrew words for "god", when applied to any other than Yahweh, can take on a more general meaning of might, strength, power.
We can say that there is much in the way of Hebraic cultural heritage that supports the idea that one can be scripturally be called or have the title of "God" in a sense other than that of Supreme Being, or the Supreme Power.
When considering the Hebrew word *EL*, that this word is used to mean other than God Almighty or a false god may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in denoted by *..*: "It is in the *power* of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no *might* in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our *power*." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the *great* mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the *power* of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Pray unto *a god* [mighty one] that cannot save." (Isaiah 45:20) "Who among the sons of the *mighty*." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*." (Psalm 29:1) "The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh]." (Psalm 50:1) "The *strong* among the mighty shall speak" (Ezekiel 32:21)
Now my thoughts:
If someone is one hundred percent God then they are not one hundred percent man unless you are willing to ignore simple truth in favor of wild philosophy and mathematical impossibility.Again,understanding the Hebrew times,God's agents WERE God(as designated reps whose words and actions were not their own but by means of the spirit and allowance of Jah) and God doesn't always mean false god OR true Almighty God and as seen from numerous texts can mean a mighty ,powerful being,and not always a false one.The false ones are not really either mighty,or powerful.So when Jah called David and Moses God he meant "mighty ones"..mighty by whose power?According to Isaiah 9:7 by whose zeal and power was Jesus made mighty?
Jesus profusely prayed for a reason(besides love),he feared,in his mortal flesh,that he might be abandoned,even though I'm sure he knew better.The flesh is weak.(and trinitarians think God could actually do this or even empty himself..twisting texts that say his SON did,NOT HIM)While trying to make sense of the fact that Jesus deserves praise,obeisance and glory ALONG with Jehovah,trinitarians have wrongfully assumed they HAVE to be the same God..because God is one right?Just a wee bit of reasoning should help one to realize that Jesus is glorifying the Almighty as His appointed chief agent and heavenly king.Remember the earthly kings were rendered service and obeisance,so one shouldn't marvel at Jesus having such,while STILL being just a SON,the MOST exalted son :)It is the same as honoring Jehovah ,as he is the one who appointed them and gave them power and might.(Jah will hand the kingdom over to Christ for a 1000 yrs so it is him,who possesses Jah's spirit without measure whom we are honoring and obeying to the glory of his father,who loves him more than we can fathom and who allows him and wills unto him all this amazing power)To put it blatantly simply,serving Jah's representatives and appointed kings is the same as serving him.Their words and dealings are NOT THEIR OWN when they are accomplishing his will.
Keep in mind also that Lord is applied to many as well ,and rightfully so,not because these people are Jehovah,but because lord is a title of the head of someone or the head of peoples(gen 18:20,matt 10:24,20:8,21:30,27:63,1 pet 3:6,mark 13:35,acts 25:26)Jah GIVES Jesus his designation,might and power just as he did Moses.Doesn't Jehovah deserve credit for what his servants do?So when Jehovah does something,then it says someone else did that same something,does it mean that the persons involved must be the same?Or maybe it means he uses agents and takes rightful credit?<--yep.Who could've done anything without his direction and spirit??(and designation)I challenge trinitarians to give me an instance where Jesus didn't have to be given something,again.Where was his God and father not credited?If it would be common sense for us to know the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron were from God's hand and spirit,why do we assume Jesus's weren't?Even when he said they were?!Even when the bible makes clear he has been and will be used for Jah to accomplish things through?If Jah's glory can surround an angel as his representative then why must Jesus be Jah just because he shares that glory too? **Luke 2:9-11: “And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city.’ ”(his reps gleam with his glory in more ways than one..the glory could be literal or it could be a miracle he performs through them,or a power he allows them to possess,ALL things to Jehovah's glory,the one who sends and the one who gives freely,especially to his most beloved!) **Isaiah 11:2:The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.(remember that dove descending?Jah's spirit without measure is always with his messiah!Notice,too that Jesus even has a healthy fear of the LORD..remember the constant supplication. **Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. 19 If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I myself will make him answer for it. ..So Jah's messages are in the mouths of his agents.Just like his miracles and salvation are in the ones he sends forth to accomplish those things. **Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face..So Ezekial credits himself with something Jehovah did,as his agent. **Jeremiah 1:9:Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth 10. See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant..So when we see that Jeremiah breaks down,overthrows,builds,plants etc..then couldn't it be said of either Jeremiah or Jehovah?And couldn't Jehovah say that he does all this alone since it is only by means of his spirit that Jeremiah could? **Jeremiah 2:2 :Go and announce to Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: I remember the unfailing loyalty of your youth, the love you had for me as a bride. I remember how you followed me into the desert, into a land that couldn't be farmed....again,they followed Jeremiah,and as Jah's rep,they were following Jah. **Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God. ..take note of Moses speaking AS God!..his words are not his own(in verse 6)!(who else's words were not his own?) **Job 42:11:and comforted him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him-->so did Jehovah cause the suffering of Job?Nope,but his allowing it made it attributable to him in that respect.So here we have Jah given credit for something Satan did because Jah didn't stop it.
**Gen. 40:8:Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me them, I pray you....Now the reason I pasted this text is this..Joseph,who said the words then proceeded to interpret the dreams!IF Jesus had said these words and then proceeded to do what Joseph did it would be cited all the time and used as proof of the trinity.Therefore when a servant(and yes Jesus served Jehovah and still does) of Jah's does something miraculous,what can we conclude?That they had no help?Then when they do accomplish something by means of God's spirit,I ask you,again,couldn't Jehovah say HE accomplished it ,alone even?
The book "Alleged Discrepancies in the Bible" by John W. Haley :
"It is consistent with Hebrew modes of thought that whatever occurs in the world, under the overruling providence of God, what he suffers to take place, should be attributed to his agency."
Imagine you have a God and father you know intimately well because he revealed his spirit fully to you and that you lived closer to him and ARE closer to him than any other child he has.Imagine your God needed you to accomplish something for him because for whatever reason he couldn't(his magnificence could not be beheld ,he could not possibly die etc) and he gave you the words to say and a thorough instruction guide to get things done,would you ignore all his wishes and commands?What if you loved him more than anyone in the world could ever fathom?What if he epitomized love himself AND promised you a fantastic reward upon completion of his assignment?What if he possessed some sort of majestic force he uses to help his will get accomplished and could pour it out anywhere or upon anyone he so desired?What if he used that force to be present with you and generously poured it upon you to help you make it through the assignment?And imagine upon completion of it,you get rewarded and he commands everyone to revere you with the same reverence they revere him as someone who ensured them their eternal lives in a perfect kingdom by what you accomplished.In no way by doing this though,was he negating his position as your boss and the one who gave you the power and will and even your very life to accomplish his will.And when you are freely and generously given all your power,will you ignore all that you have learned and all that you will learn from the one who gave it to you?Will you use the standards of the very one who you proclaim is your God and greater than you when you accomplish HIS WILL?Do you think he will abandon you in your future assignments ,you and your brothers that he allowed you to adopt as your own just because he loves you?He will always be there for you and you will always be his most beloved,faithful and true.Faithful and true and beloved to whom?Sent and used as agent and representative for whom?YOURSELF?When does all this suddenly MAKE YOU THE SAME GOD WHO SENT YOU AND GAVE YOU EVERYTHING?
The father GAVE Jesus EVERYTHING right?And what about the father being the only true God can't people grasp?(Mark 12:28-34)If Jesus was 1/3 of a godhead he wouldn't have distinguished himself from another third as lesser or had to be given anything from anyone.In no way shape or form can 1/3 of God be submissive to another 1/3 of God unless you are willing to open your window and toss logic clear to timbuktu in favor of biblically condemned philosophical leanings that were and apparently still are prevalent.Erroneous manmade "puffed up" "knowledge" outside of God's simple truth of his singularity and Jesus singularity,sonship,as messiah and king BY GOD'S appointment.God is now his own king?God is now his own God?God became a man?God died?God was tempted and possessed a will different than his own?God is his own father?God constantly gave 1/3 of himself credit for another 1/3's sayings and doings?1/3 of God inherited what another 1/3 of God had because 1/3 of God had emptied himself?You'll have to excuse me for my inability to grasp this wild philosophical greek-inspired conjecture,but didn't the bible say that he sent his SON?When did Son of God start meaning God?Who was the first trinitarian?And where does God or Jesus talk about their substances enough to start formulating creeds about it?Aren't all heavenly beings composed of a celestial nature?Who are trinitarians to define the nature and substance of the Almighty?Shouldn't we stick to what IS revealed?And if I am out of line saying 1/3 a lot because each person of the "godhead" is each 100% percent God then you'll just have to excuse me for saying you have 3 100% Gods.And if that angers you,you have to understand that is NOT my intention.I'm just being realistic and seeking to expose a doctrine I clearly oppose as a truth seeker and a holder to the singularity of the one and ONLY Almighty.(Deut 6:4,John 17:3,Ps. 83:18)It hurts me a little to see sincere people who have an awesome zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge,the very thing I am accused of.(Rom. 10:2)
from:
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas:
"When we take into account the inevitable "falling away" or "apostasy" foretold in the Christian scriptures,and at the same time appreciating the very real influence of invisible though hostile spiritual forces that surround us,as well as the overall weakness and fallibility intrinsic to the human condition,it becomes to a certain degree understandable that devout students of the bible have gone into different directions on such a crucial matter."
"Nearly every argument made to advance and uphold this established doctrine always relies on a notable excessive degree of theological inference,an unusual and innovative kind of thinking,and even,in certain cases,farfetched philosophical speculation based on preconceived views and already established theological concepts."
Tuesday, February 17, 2009
Imaginary conversation with a trinitarian
Kellie:You think 3 persons each individually called almighty God equals one God?
trinitarian:yes,3 persons,1 GOD
Kellie:How did you come to this conclusion?
trinitarian:those three persons are each called God so it has to mean they are all one God,because God is one
Kellie:So it doesn't matter to you that all kinds of people are called God,from Moses to angels to judges?
trinitarian:It is different because Jesus is worshipped and given God's name
Kellie:It doesn't matter to you that others are "proskeneo'd" to God's glory and given God's name as well?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus
Kellie:I agree that Jesus is more important than these others but does that mean he is God just because of his being exalted BY GOD above others?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..he shares God's throne and glory
Kellie:What of the others who do?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus because he is the EXACT representation of God's glory and ALL THE FULLNESS of God was in him in bodily form
Kellie:The bible says Jesus was given God's holy spirit WITHOUT measure,explaining his representing him so poignantly.Also,If Jesus is Almighty God and all of Jesus' fullness dwells in believers,does that mean they too have to be equally Almighty God?
trinitarian:Jesus is called the first and the last,the almighty,the alpha and Omega
Kellie:Actually he is only called the first and the last as a different application than that to Jehovah.It is succintly explained in context..first raised from the dead,last directly by Jah because he was GIVEN the key to death and hades,so that THROUGH him all others would be raised.It is QUITE common in scripture to apply identical phrases to different people because it could be said of BOTH for different reasons,in different applications and fulfillments
trinitarian:You mean to tell me you think there can be more than one first and last?
Kellie:yes,when you look at context absolutely..it is explained if you are willing to reason.BOTH times he is the immediate context is his death and resurrection.
trinitarian:What about Jehovah being called almighty as the one coming..we know Jesus is coming,not Jehovah so Jesus has to be Jehovah
Kellie:You don't think Jehovah will be with Jesus to exact vengeance?You don't think Jesus will use his father's standards and direction in judging etc?The bible says he'll be coming in the glory of his father and the angels!You don't think that the way of Jehovah IS the way of Jesus since Jesus does everything his father tells him to do and lives by his fathers standards?And Jesus isn't ever called almighty.
trintarian:you're dancing around the issue..They're each individually almighty God,but there's only one almighty God,existing in 3 persons.That simple.
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:the trinity is a bit of a mystery because great is the mystery of godliness
Kellie:It's only a mystery if it hasn't been revealed.What do you think of Deuteronomy 6:4?
trinitarian:I think echad denotes unity of persons
Kellie:Echad means a numerical one just like the English language "one" functions."Show me an instance where echad denotes unity with more than one person involved in that unity when those persons aren't all mentioned
trinitarian:I'll have to look into that
Kellie:great
triniatrian:Mind if I show you a list of titles applied to both that can only be applied to Jehovah?
Kellie:that'll be fine if you'll allow me as well to present to you a list of titles used of others and used of Jesus as well that would SEEM to be exclusive to either.
trinitarian:that's different because these people foreshadowed Jesus
Kellie:so you don't think it could also be that those words apply to both in different applications and not just because of foreshadowing?In other words..those words and phrases can be applied to both in separate fulfillments.Jesus is Yah's agent.And are you willing to say that all these people whom Jah created foreshadow Jah,whom you think Jesus is?
trinitarian:no ,they just foreshadow his human nature
Kellie:Where does the bible say Jesus was a hundred percent Jehovah on top of a hundred percent man?
trinitarian:that's just common sense because God can't stop being God even when he empties himself
Kellie:where does the bible say Jehovah emptied himself?Doesn't the bible say that Jesus humbled himself even though he was the Last Adam,heir to a throne, and that Jesus is Jehovah's son?
trinitarian:Son of God=God like son of man=man
Kellie:Isn't that a wild assumption since God created ALL things and man did not?
trinitarian:It's clear
Kellie:I think so too..I think son of God means son of God.Angels are sons of God.
Trinitarian:To which of the angels did he ever say that?!
Kellie:Jesus is the only begotten unique son of God because he was born of a virgin by God's spirit and most extolled heir.He conquered the world to save our lives.
trinitarian:that's another thing..only God can save us
Kellie: I agree..he designated someone to do so. But in the scales of justice who was powerful enough to make all of us lose our lives?
trinitarian:Adam?
Kellie:yes..wasn't he first created perfect earthly son of God?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:Isn't God perfectly just?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:so why then wouldn't another perfect creation of God be good enough to buy back what another had lost?
trinitarian:He said no God after him was formed.If you think Jesus is a "little god", you're a polytheist
Kellie:there are many gods,only one true Jehovah almighty God.No one else is Jehovah but Jehovah.Even when his agents are given his name,it is only a Hebrew right.Their words and actions are not their own when his spirit is directing them.Are you willing to say that People God HIMSELF called gods and lords are false ones?I'm not.
trinitarian:are you willing to give worship and sacred service to a creature?
Kellie:Are you willing to admit that created designated powerful beings are sometimes as chief agents and representatives of the Most High given "proskeneo" to Jehovah's glory?And rendered service BECAUSE they are upholding Jah's statutes in their powerful positions that he gave them?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..his name is above EVERY name.
Kellie:you think it is above Jehovah's?In light of 1 cor 15:27,28 are you willing to say that in instances where Jesus is above everyone else that it must mean he is Jehovah?Isn't it common sense to know that ,again,according to 1 Corinthians that it is obviously WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who MADE him above all things?Does Jehovah have to qualify that simple discernible truth every time?
trinitarian:In other words..you're willing to worship a creature and serve a creature and credit a creature for your salvation.
Kellie:I'm willing to accept Jesus as designated Lord,savior and theocratic king.Again,Jehovah allows his CHIEF agents obeisance.I have instances where it is appropriate ,but always to HIS glory,if you'd like to go through a few.I recognize that Jehovah saved and that Jehovah rules THROUGH Jesus.That we are to give those taking the lead among us "double honor" etc..Jesus is miles above them so why not honor him?As the one who most perfectly follows his father's footsteps,he has been rewarded with our honor and Jehovah's exaltation like no other!
trinitarian:sounds like creature worship to me.
Kellie:when angels and kings at times were "proskeneo'd" you think it was inappropriate?
trinitarian:Angels and kings aren't worshipped.Only Jehovah ,in 3 persons,is!They may be honored,but not worshipped
Kellie:The SAME word is used,and it can mean a number of things.If Jehovah told you that you were standing on sacred ground because a mighty angel showed up as his chief representative before you,would you bow before him,recognizing whose glory he was representative of,and whose words he was delivering,to the glory of the chief angel's God?Wasn't Moses called God?Weren't angels called gods?Why were Jah's kings "proskeneo'd"?
trinitarian:I'm not willing to worship a creature.
Kellie:Jesus isn't just some creature.He was exalted above the angels.Notice though that it doesn't say it was his rightful position but that he was rewarded ONLY BECAUSE of his perfect obedience and faithfulness?It says he was better ONLY to the extent that he inherited a name better,not that he has some inherent greater ontology or greek substance.When one is exalted it means they are raised to a higher position than they had before.
Trinitarian:right,he was exalted again back to where he was because he had emptied himself
Kellie:But if he was always equally almighty God then that human nature shouldn't have mattered.You can't be exalted by someone if you are 100 percent God.
trinitarian:you are ignoring the human nature
Kellie:My point is the God nature should trump the human and negate the fact that the human nature would have any limitations at all.
trinitarian:I'm not sure I get what you mean
Kellie:Jesus was exalted ,not from his human nature,but from his previous position as Jah's chief word and representative to his chief word and representative PLUS theocratic king of Jah's kingdom government,with a much touted admired name that is above every other except the One's who gave it to him,one that he EARNED through love,supplication,obedience and saving mankind.
trinitarian:Oh so you don't think Jesus is God?lol
Kellie:You could tell?
trinitarian:yes,3 persons,1 GOD
Kellie:How did you come to this conclusion?
trinitarian:those three persons are each called God so it has to mean they are all one God,because God is one
Kellie:So it doesn't matter to you that all kinds of people are called God,from Moses to angels to judges?
trinitarian:It is different because Jesus is worshipped and given God's name
Kellie:It doesn't matter to you that others are "proskeneo'd" to God's glory and given God's name as well?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus
Kellie:I agree that Jesus is more important than these others but does that mean he is God just because of his being exalted BY GOD above others?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..he shares God's throne and glory
Kellie:What of the others who do?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus because he is the EXACT representation of God's glory and ALL THE FULLNESS of God was in him in bodily form
Kellie:The bible says Jesus was given God's holy spirit WITHOUT measure,explaining his representing him so poignantly.Also,If Jesus is Almighty God and all of Jesus' fullness dwells in believers,does that mean they too have to be equally Almighty God?
trinitarian:Jesus is called the first and the last,the almighty,the alpha and Omega
Kellie:Actually he is only called the first and the last as a different application than that to Jehovah.It is succintly explained in context..first raised from the dead,last directly by Jah because he was GIVEN the key to death and hades,so that THROUGH him all others would be raised.It is QUITE common in scripture to apply identical phrases to different people because it could be said of BOTH for different reasons,in different applications and fulfillments
trinitarian:You mean to tell me you think there can be more than one first and last?
Kellie:yes,when you look at context absolutely..it is explained if you are willing to reason.BOTH times he is the immediate context is his death and resurrection.
trinitarian:What about Jehovah being called almighty as the one coming..we know Jesus is coming,not Jehovah so Jesus has to be Jehovah
Kellie:You don't think Jehovah will be with Jesus to exact vengeance?You don't think Jesus will use his father's standards and direction in judging etc?The bible says he'll be coming in the glory of his father and the angels!You don't think that the way of Jehovah IS the way of Jesus since Jesus does everything his father tells him to do and lives by his fathers standards?And Jesus isn't ever called almighty.
trintarian:you're dancing around the issue..They're each individually almighty God,but there's only one almighty God,existing in 3 persons.That simple.
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:the trinity is a bit of a mystery because great is the mystery of godliness
Kellie:It's only a mystery if it hasn't been revealed.What do you think of Deuteronomy 6:4?
trinitarian:I think echad denotes unity of persons
Kellie:Echad means a numerical one just like the English language "one" functions."Show me an instance where echad denotes unity with more than one person involved in that unity when those persons aren't all mentioned
trinitarian:I'll have to look into that
Kellie:great
triniatrian:Mind if I show you a list of titles applied to both that can only be applied to Jehovah?
Kellie:that'll be fine if you'll allow me as well to present to you a list of titles used of others and used of Jesus as well that would SEEM to be exclusive to either.
trinitarian:that's different because these people foreshadowed Jesus
Kellie:so you don't think it could also be that those words apply to both in different applications and not just because of foreshadowing?In other words..those words and phrases can be applied to both in separate fulfillments.Jesus is Yah's agent.And are you willing to say that all these people whom Jah created foreshadow Jah,whom you think Jesus is?
trinitarian:no ,they just foreshadow his human nature
Kellie:Where does the bible say Jesus was a hundred percent Jehovah on top of a hundred percent man?
trinitarian:that's just common sense because God can't stop being God even when he empties himself
Kellie:where does the bible say Jehovah emptied himself?Doesn't the bible say that Jesus humbled himself even though he was the Last Adam,heir to a throne, and that Jesus is Jehovah's son?
trinitarian:Son of God=God like son of man=man
Kellie:Isn't that a wild assumption since God created ALL things and man did not?
trinitarian:It's clear
Kellie:I think so too..I think son of God means son of God.Angels are sons of God.
Trinitarian:To which of the angels did he ever say that?!
Kellie:Jesus is the only begotten unique son of God because he was born of a virgin by God's spirit and most extolled heir.He conquered the world to save our lives.
trinitarian:that's another thing..only God can save us
Kellie: I agree..he designated someone to do so. But in the scales of justice who was powerful enough to make all of us lose our lives?
trinitarian:Adam?
Kellie:yes..wasn't he first created perfect earthly son of God?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:Isn't God perfectly just?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:so why then wouldn't another perfect creation of God be good enough to buy back what another had lost?
trinitarian:He said no God after him was formed.If you think Jesus is a "little god", you're a polytheist
Kellie:there are many gods,only one true Jehovah almighty God.No one else is Jehovah but Jehovah.Even when his agents are given his name,it is only a Hebrew right.Their words and actions are not their own when his spirit is directing them.Are you willing to say that People God HIMSELF called gods and lords are false ones?I'm not.
trinitarian:are you willing to give worship and sacred service to a creature?
Kellie:Are you willing to admit that created designated powerful beings are sometimes as chief agents and representatives of the Most High given "proskeneo" to Jehovah's glory?And rendered service BECAUSE they are upholding Jah's statutes in their powerful positions that he gave them?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..his name is above EVERY name.
Kellie:you think it is above Jehovah's?In light of 1 cor 15:27,28 are you willing to say that in instances where Jesus is above everyone else that it must mean he is Jehovah?Isn't it common sense to know that ,again,according to 1 Corinthians that it is obviously WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who MADE him above all things?Does Jehovah have to qualify that simple discernible truth every time?
trinitarian:In other words..you're willing to worship a creature and serve a creature and credit a creature for your salvation.
Kellie:I'm willing to accept Jesus as designated Lord,savior and theocratic king.Again,Jehovah allows his CHIEF agents obeisance.I have instances where it is appropriate ,but always to HIS glory,if you'd like to go through a few.I recognize that Jehovah saved and that Jehovah rules THROUGH Jesus.That we are to give those taking the lead among us "double honor" etc..Jesus is miles above them so why not honor him?As the one who most perfectly follows his father's footsteps,he has been rewarded with our honor and Jehovah's exaltation like no other!
trinitarian:sounds like creature worship to me.
Kellie:when angels and kings at times were "proskeneo'd" you think it was inappropriate?
trinitarian:Angels and kings aren't worshipped.Only Jehovah ,in 3 persons,is!They may be honored,but not worshipped
Kellie:The SAME word is used,and it can mean a number of things.If Jehovah told you that you were standing on sacred ground because a mighty angel showed up as his chief representative before you,would you bow before him,recognizing whose glory he was representative of,and whose words he was delivering,to the glory of the chief angel's God?Wasn't Moses called God?Weren't angels called gods?Why were Jah's kings "proskeneo'd"?
trinitarian:I'm not willing to worship a creature.
Kellie:Jesus isn't just some creature.He was exalted above the angels.Notice though that it doesn't say it was his rightful position but that he was rewarded ONLY BECAUSE of his perfect obedience and faithfulness?It says he was better ONLY to the extent that he inherited a name better,not that he has some inherent greater ontology or greek substance.When one is exalted it means they are raised to a higher position than they had before.
Trinitarian:right,he was exalted again back to where he was because he had emptied himself
Kellie:But if he was always equally almighty God then that human nature shouldn't have mattered.You can't be exalted by someone if you are 100 percent God.
trinitarian:you are ignoring the human nature
Kellie:My point is the God nature should trump the human and negate the fact that the human nature would have any limitations at all.
trinitarian:I'm not sure I get what you mean
Kellie:Jesus was exalted ,not from his human nature,but from his previous position as Jah's chief word and representative to his chief word and representative PLUS theocratic king of Jah's kingdom government,with a much touted admired name that is above every other except the One's who gave it to him,one that he EARNED through love,supplication,obedience and saving mankind.
trinitarian:Oh so you don't think Jesus is God?lol
Kellie:You could tell?
Sunday, February 15, 2009
Reasoning with Trinitarians part 2
I know there are mysteries about God that as finite wee humans we cannot comprehend,but thankfully what he has revealed we can know.And he has revealed that he is not a trinity..And Jesus has revealed that he is inferior,even after his ascension.(John 14:28,eph 1:17)Common sense and scripture unite to declare to us the simple truth of Jehovah and his appointed king!
What does the spirit of the antichrist confess?That Jesus never came in the flesh and that he never died and was raised?
Don't trinitarians believe that Jesus was 100% God AS WELL as 100% flesh.Can God be flesh?(num 23:19,rom 1:23)And where does the bible say he was 100 percent God on top of that 100 percent flesh?(1 cor 15:21)I only see that he was flesh .(1 tim 2:5)Trinitarians also believe Jesus as "God the son" never died.Guess what?Jesus died,and not just a flesh capsule of his.Is Jesus REALLY 2 natures..because the trinitarian numbers add up to 200 percent.(trinitarians employ "voodoo" mathematics ;)The bible makes clear that Jesus,ALL of him,the ACTUAL PERSON of him died.For three whole days.If someone has proof otherwise,bring it on.And if your proof is that his spirit went to God then I urge you to look up the definition of that word used for spirit and realize that happens to everyone at death.(Luke 23:46).Is no one really dead?And what is up with the whole resurrection thing if not?(acts 24:15)And why are the dead described by Jesus as sleeping?(John 11:11)And the bible as having no thoughts etc.?(ecc 9:5,10)Spirit can mean life(pneuma ),and when we die our future life prospects,clearly,are given back to Jehovah.(ps 146:4)Who can restore "the breath of life" to us just as he did to Jesus upon OUR resurrection.(gen 2:7)I keep emphasizing these points because if someone is willing to be honest with scripture and self,one MUST admit Jesus died and therefore cannot be God.And that if anyone doesn't believe Jesus REALLY DIED for us(ALL OF HIM),he is hazardously confessing a "different Jesus".(2 cor 11:3,4..apostasy started way back even then!)Did anyone in the bible who was resurrected ever mention the torment they had burning alive or the bliss they had in heaven before they were brought back??Wonder why that is?Death means lack of breath,thinking ability,speech,you name it..Anything beyond that is not biblical.Dead can be brought BACK to life.(1 cor 15:40)It's basic truth.Are you maybe just reasoning through a "what you've always been taught" kind of lens?(mark 7:13)I hope upon further prayerful examination and meditation you will consider that Jesus was REALLY flesh when he came to the earth,which rules out the ability to be God.(Is 31:3,1 tim 6:16.John 4:24)And that he was REALLY dead for three days,not alive.Otherwise,again,you have been taught "another Jesus" than that which the bible declares(1 tim 1:3).No death,no atonement.Death of only one nature of 2,unbiblical.(mark 8:31,col 2:8)And not a real *death* according to the bible's own definition of the word!
I don't agree with all this person believes but I found this page interesting..check it out!(I've never seen anyone put Jesus on a witness stand in a blog before.)
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html
Interestingly enough,trinitarians oft say that only God would be good enough to have died to remove our sin from us,yet they say God didn't die,just his human nature.But by that very reasoning,wouldn't his human nature alone not have been good enough?
**Matt 27:62-64:'**He**(a person,not just a flesh capsule that once had a person in it) has risen from the dead
**Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
**Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades.(Jesus)
**John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”
**John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”
**Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)
**The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:16)
**Hebrews 5:7 "As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God".
I for one can't appreciate the philosophical spin trinitarians put on who Jehovah and Jesus are.(1 cor 8:6,John 17:3)
Another objection:Jesus is given God's name so he must be God.(John 17:11)First of all if someone is given something he isn't the one who gave it.Just like if someone is representing someone else(I don't care how perfectly) that person cannot be the one they represent.Being in the form of someone ALSO excludes the possibility that you are that someone.(trinity "proof" texts usually refute themselves.)
Jesus LITERALLY means "Jehovah is salvation" so everytime you are calling upon Jesus name you are calling on Jehovah's.(For those of you who think it is unuterrable and too holy to be recognized.)There's a new name given to all sons if God.(rev 14:1)Jehovah's name is said to be in his agents.(ex 23:20,21)As his agents of message deliverance and salvation(in Jesus case) they bear his name..His name is his will.And he uses his agents to "cause whatever he wills to become."His name means "he causes to become".So whoever he uses to cause his will to take place,bear his name.(ex 7:1)That simple.Whomever he uses become "as God' and whomever he speaks through,CAN be termed "Yahweh" as his word if Yahweh so wills.THE AGENT BEARS THE NAME OF THE PRINCIPLE.(especially if they are chief agent or specially favored,as would the Angel of Yah and Jesus have been..)This is typical in Hebrew times!And a Hebrew truth that trinitarians haven't recognized,at least not in the case of Jesus.His agents are even "proskuneo'd" to his glory,not just Jesus.Those who did recognized who it REALLY was they were honoring,as his representatives and appointed kings etc.As lords and gods.(yes,real lords and gods..there should be no implication here that these common titles mean Sovereign Lord Most High of the universe).Clearly,Jah is one.And he means one..not triune,which doesn't mean one.I would like to make perfectly clear that God makes perfectly clear his singularity,nor does he shy away from saying "I am God.Worship me"..something Jesus neva eva said.However he did say a lot of things that proved he was inferior,and not because he is Godman,but because he is inferior as God's Son and servant.(consistently)ONLY to Jah though,he's above everyone else.(1 cor 15:27,28)I think the most exalted appointed king of the Most High God deserves sacred service and obeisance.(even less important earthly kings had these things) Worship means all kinds of things .You don't know him if you think he IS the same being as the one HE worships,supplicating with his face to the ground!His will was even different and so he had to beg for it to conform.
Trinitarians think God has a God.Amazing.I think one of the problems trinitarians have is reconciling the fact that Jesus has SO much power but yet isn't God.But think of all the things the OT reps and the NT disciples accomplished due to his spirit being upon them.Then multiply that by whatever number because Jesus is the greatest of all his messengers for obvious reasons,but you STILL have a messenger and someone GIVEN their power,any which way you cut it.(john 3:34,6:57,7:16,17,28-30,8:16,26,col 1:3)
I have a page I want to recommend for understanding the whole agent/principle thing.Just read under "AGENCY"
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47287
Jehovah will continue to use Jesus as his chief agent in EVERYTHING.Saving,building and maintaining a kingdom,holding together a new creation,judging,resurrecting,you name it.(John 14:6,1 cor 8:6,rev 1:1,John 5:19,27,heb 1:2,acts 2:36,2 Cor. 5:17,18,Dan. 7:13,14).
Not a single soul can find an instance where Jesus isn't given everything he has,from words to power etc.(have you read Matt,Mark,Luke and John lately?)And that to me is powerful proof indeed that not only is he not Jehovah,but that he depends upon him for his EVERY word deed and power.Now how in the world could anyone take that fact and think "Jesus is Jehovah"?!
John 13:16: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.(ahem..1 cor 15:27,28..use it or lose it ;)
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
John 5: 43-44: I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
One last trinitarian objection I will address..John 12:41 talks about Isaiah seeing Jesus glory but Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory in Isaiah 6:1 so Jesus must be Jehovah!!
Cotext,context,context
Now Isaiah spoke about Jesus all through Isaiah ch 52 and 53 and the glory as represented by his suffering and resurrection.And according to context John ch 12(vs 23 & 37,38 to name just a couple) IS talking about Isaiah chs 52 &53...THAT is WHEN Isaiah spoke about Jesus..he didn't speak about Jesus in Isaiah ch 6...He did see a manifestation or a representation of Yahweh in Isaiah 6 though.Yahweh is the one who gave him the words TO SAY about Jesus in the 52nd and 53rd chapter.
Iaiah 52:10: LORD has bared his holy arm(that would be Jesus) in the sight of all the nations; All the ends of the earth will behold the salvation of our God...13:See, my servant shall prosper, he shall be raised high and greatly exalted
Isaiah 53:1:Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (is 51:9)
4:Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5:But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
11:After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
See also John 2:11:Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.(so glory is revealed in MANY ways..see also..John 11:4,1 Peter 1:11)
further explanation for this from this website:
http://www.scripturaltruths.com
Which says:
Isaiah saw the glory of the Messiah in his work.It was this work that was truly his glory. He lived, suffered and died, by which he “bore the sins of many,” (Isa. 53:12) resulting in our salvation.
As John points out, Isaiah himself had a basic understanding of this astounding unfaith. Isaiah experienced unbelieving rejection in his own ministry, but even more he saw Jesus’ glory [death/resurrection] and spoke about him."
When we consider John 12 we find that Isaiah 53:1 is quoted and is the primary text in view, whereas the passage from Isaiah 6 is cited to only further explain this primary text."
Jehovah isn't selfish in the allowance of his agents to bear strength and glory!However,he will never allow false idols or false gods to do so..which is the context the texts about him sharing his glory with no one should be viewed in light of..the surrounding events.And those were that people were praising graven images etc.Also,the texts about Yah being the only God and savior should be viewed in light of this context,as others ARE properly termed gods and saviors.Jesus is the chief inheritor of the greatest blessings of Jah.We live because of his sufferings,and so why,again,WOULDN'T Jah reward him for THAT?!
What does the spirit of the antichrist confess?That Jesus never came in the flesh and that he never died and was raised?
Don't trinitarians believe that Jesus was 100% God AS WELL as 100% flesh.Can God be flesh?(num 23:19,rom 1:23)And where does the bible say he was 100 percent God on top of that 100 percent flesh?(1 cor 15:21)I only see that he was flesh .(1 tim 2:5)Trinitarians also believe Jesus as "God the son" never died.Guess what?Jesus died,and not just a flesh capsule of his.Is Jesus REALLY 2 natures..because the trinitarian numbers add up to 200 percent.(trinitarians employ "voodoo" mathematics ;)The bible makes clear that Jesus,ALL of him,the ACTUAL PERSON of him died.For three whole days.If someone has proof otherwise,bring it on.And if your proof is that his spirit went to God then I urge you to look up the definition of that word used for spirit and realize that happens to everyone at death.(Luke 23:46).Is no one really dead?And what is up with the whole resurrection thing if not?(acts 24:15)And why are the dead described by Jesus as sleeping?(John 11:11)And the bible as having no thoughts etc.?(ecc 9:5,10)Spirit can mean life(pneuma ),and when we die our future life prospects,clearly,are given back to Jehovah.(ps 146:4)Who can restore "the breath of life" to us just as he did to Jesus upon OUR resurrection.(gen 2:7)I keep emphasizing these points because if someone is willing to be honest with scripture and self,one MUST admit Jesus died and therefore cannot be God.And that if anyone doesn't believe Jesus REALLY DIED for us(ALL OF HIM),he is hazardously confessing a "different Jesus".(2 cor 11:3,4..apostasy started way back even then!)Did anyone in the bible who was resurrected ever mention the torment they had burning alive or the bliss they had in heaven before they were brought back??Wonder why that is?Death means lack of breath,thinking ability,speech,you name it..Anything beyond that is not biblical.Dead can be brought BACK to life.(1 cor 15:40)It's basic truth.Are you maybe just reasoning through a "what you've always been taught" kind of lens?(mark 7:13)I hope upon further prayerful examination and meditation you will consider that Jesus was REALLY flesh when he came to the earth,which rules out the ability to be God.(Is 31:3,1 tim 6:16.John 4:24)And that he was REALLY dead for three days,not alive.Otherwise,again,you have been taught "another Jesus" than that which the bible declares(1 tim 1:3).No death,no atonement.Death of only one nature of 2,unbiblical.(mark 8:31,col 2:8)And not a real *death* according to the bible's own definition of the word!
I don't agree with all this person believes but I found this page interesting..check it out!(I've never seen anyone put Jesus on a witness stand in a blog before.)
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html
Interestingly enough,trinitarians oft say that only God would be good enough to have died to remove our sin from us,yet they say God didn't die,just his human nature.But by that very reasoning,wouldn't his human nature alone not have been good enough?
**Matt 27:62-64:'**He**(a person,not just a flesh capsule that once had a person in it) has risen from the dead
**Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
**Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades.(Jesus)
**John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”
**John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”
**Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)
**The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:16)
**Hebrews 5:7 "As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God".
I for one can't appreciate the philosophical spin trinitarians put on who Jehovah and Jesus are.(1 cor 8:6,John 17:3)
Another objection:Jesus is given God's name so he must be God.(John 17:11)First of all if someone is given something he isn't the one who gave it.Just like if someone is representing someone else(I don't care how perfectly) that person cannot be the one they represent.Being in the form of someone ALSO excludes the possibility that you are that someone.(trinity "proof" texts usually refute themselves.)
Jesus LITERALLY means "Jehovah is salvation" so everytime you are calling upon Jesus name you are calling on Jehovah's.(For those of you who think it is unuterrable and too holy to be recognized.)There's a new name given to all sons if God.(rev 14:1)Jehovah's name is said to be in his agents.(ex 23:20,21)As his agents of message deliverance and salvation(in Jesus case) they bear his name..His name is his will.And he uses his agents to "cause whatever he wills to become."His name means "he causes to become".So whoever he uses to cause his will to take place,bear his name.(ex 7:1)That simple.Whomever he uses become "as God' and whomever he speaks through,CAN be termed "Yahweh" as his word if Yahweh so wills.THE AGENT BEARS THE NAME OF THE PRINCIPLE.(especially if they are chief agent or specially favored,as would the Angel of Yah and Jesus have been..)This is typical in Hebrew times!And a Hebrew truth that trinitarians haven't recognized,at least not in the case of Jesus.His agents are even "proskuneo'd" to his glory,not just Jesus.Those who did recognized who it REALLY was they were honoring,as his representatives and appointed kings etc.As lords and gods.(yes,real lords and gods..there should be no implication here that these common titles mean Sovereign Lord Most High of the universe).Clearly,Jah is one.And he means one..not triune,which doesn't mean one.I would like to make perfectly clear that God makes perfectly clear his singularity,nor does he shy away from saying "I am God.Worship me"..something Jesus neva eva said.However he did say a lot of things that proved he was inferior,and not because he is Godman,but because he is inferior as God's Son and servant.(consistently)ONLY to Jah though,he's above everyone else.(1 cor 15:27,28)I think the most exalted appointed king of the Most High God deserves sacred service and obeisance.(even less important earthly kings had these things) Worship means all kinds of things .You don't know him if you think he IS the same being as the one HE worships,supplicating with his face to the ground!His will was even different and so he had to beg for it to conform.
Trinitarians think God has a God.Amazing.I think one of the problems trinitarians have is reconciling the fact that Jesus has SO much power but yet isn't God.But think of all the things the OT reps and the NT disciples accomplished due to his spirit being upon them.Then multiply that by whatever number because Jesus is the greatest of all his messengers for obvious reasons,but you STILL have a messenger and someone GIVEN their power,any which way you cut it.(john 3:34,6:57,7:16,17,28-30,8:16,26,col 1:3)
I have a page I want to recommend for understanding the whole agent/principle thing.Just read under "AGENCY"
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47287
Jehovah will continue to use Jesus as his chief agent in EVERYTHING.Saving,building and maintaining a kingdom,holding together a new creation,judging,resurrecting,you name it.(John 14:6,1 cor 8:6,rev 1:1,John 5:19,27,heb 1:2,acts 2:36,2 Cor. 5:17,18,Dan. 7:13,14).
Not a single soul can find an instance where Jesus isn't given everything he has,from words to power etc.(have you read Matt,Mark,Luke and John lately?)And that to me is powerful proof indeed that not only is he not Jehovah,but that he depends upon him for his EVERY word deed and power.Now how in the world could anyone take that fact and think "Jesus is Jehovah"?!
John 13:16: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.(ahem..1 cor 15:27,28..use it or lose it ;)
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
John 5: 43-44: I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
One last trinitarian objection I will address..John 12:41 talks about Isaiah seeing Jesus glory but Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory in Isaiah 6:1 so Jesus must be Jehovah!!
Cotext,context,context
Now Isaiah spoke about Jesus all through Isaiah ch 52 and 53 and the glory as represented by his suffering and resurrection.And according to context John ch 12(vs 23 & 37,38 to name just a couple) IS talking about Isaiah chs 52 &53...THAT is WHEN Isaiah spoke about Jesus..he didn't speak about Jesus in Isaiah ch 6...He did see a manifestation or a representation of Yahweh in Isaiah 6 though.Yahweh is the one who gave him the words TO SAY about Jesus in the 52nd and 53rd chapter.
Iaiah 52:10: LORD has bared his holy arm(that would be Jesus) in the sight of all the nations; All the ends of the earth will behold the salvation of our God...13:See, my servant shall prosper, he shall be raised high and greatly exalted
Isaiah 53:1:Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (is 51:9)
4:Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5:But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
11:After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
See also John 2:11:Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.(so glory is revealed in MANY ways..see also..John 11:4,1 Peter 1:11)
further explanation for this from this website:
http://www.scripturaltruths.com
Which says:
Isaiah saw the glory of the Messiah in his work.It was this work that was truly his glory. He lived, suffered and died, by which he “bore the sins of many,” (Isa. 53:12) resulting in our salvation.
As John points out, Isaiah himself had a basic understanding of this astounding unfaith. Isaiah experienced unbelieving rejection in his own ministry, but even more he saw Jesus’ glory [death/resurrection] and spoke about him."
When we consider John 12 we find that Isaiah 53:1 is quoted and is the primary text in view, whereas the passage from Isaiah 6 is cited to only further explain this primary text."
Jehovah isn't selfish in the allowance of his agents to bear strength and glory!However,he will never allow false idols or false gods to do so..which is the context the texts about him sharing his glory with no one should be viewed in light of..the surrounding events.And those were that people were praising graven images etc.Also,the texts about Yah being the only God and savior should be viewed in light of this context,as others ARE properly termed gods and saviors.Jesus is the chief inheritor of the greatest blessings of Jah.We live because of his sufferings,and so why,again,WOULDN'T Jah reward him for THAT?!
Monday, February 9, 2009
Reasoning with trinitarians.
What I have heard one too many times:
There can only be one first and last!.....If the same words or phrases are used of both it has to mean Jesus is God!
Let's say (and I am TERRIBLE AT THIS but a girl's gotta try)I open the first vegetarian restaurant in my hometown.And the last one,there will be no others.I could be called the first and the last to have done so.If I hired someone first who then hired everyone else FOR ME afterward (using my standards of qualification of course and hey,I'm STILL boss)he /she could be called the first and the last as well.The first person hired directly by me and the last hired directly by me.
I addressed this in another blog ,so I'll make it quick.Look at context..he was dead then alive(first resurrected by God directly)and the last directly by God because look!Jesus was GIVEN the key to resurrect others.(and yes revelation makes it clear by context that this is the most true interpretation,as a diff application)Once again,being USED by God and being bestowed with privileges by God. Also,they are both first and last of their kind.Jehovah is the first and last Almighty God and Jesus is the first and last unique only begotten chief messenger son of God.Also,Jesus is the first new creation of God and the last to be directly created by God alone since every other new creation is IN Christ Jesus as the one who holds it together by power from God.So,yep,diff applications,same terminology.Jah is clever like that.
If you took two similar people,say a father and a son(how convenient) and a book as big as the bible was written about them both,I bet you would find all kinds of similarities,especially if they worked together on everything and had the same jobs and purposes in life,Sharing the same morals and home ,you name it.And if you isolated the words or truths that could be applied to both,you might even think they were the same human being,but would that make it so?And if one was called son and one was called the father of that son,and let's say someone worked for them,and they both held positions higher than that someone,would it mean that the father and the son are the same person and boss?
Same terminology,different applications.
Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings(Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14),of which it SOUNDS like there could be only one!Melchizedeck is said to have no beginning or end of days or priesthood,which SOUNDS like that would be unique to him.But bible readers are aware the same is said of Christ's kingship and priesthood.The bible says that God is Jesus throne(which means he upholds Christ's kingship,as the appointer and statute giver) but that is also said of David and we know from revelation that the anointed members of Christ's bride are to sit up on that same throne!(see also 1 kings 2:24 and 1 chron 29:23)Jesus' disciples ,like Christ, were called "the light of the world." (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) Hebrews is a book that commonly uses OT passages and applies them to Jesus.Passages that formerly applied to David,Solomon and Jehovah.IF you are going to use the standards you want to use as a trinitarian,are you REALLY being fair?Is saying "well ,David and Solomon foreshadowed Christ so it isn't the same thing" a good reason to be bias here?No.Because the same texts are applied to both for the same reasons the ones about Jah are applied to Jesus...DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS AND FULFILLMENTS and pertaining to BOTH in different ways ..that simple.In other words,to be fair and unbiased ,if you are going to assume Jesus is Jehovah by this reasoning,then you MUST assume Jesus is David and Solomon,unless you're simply unwilling to be unbiased.If someone is wondering what I am talking about ..compare these texts :)..(ps 102:25-27, heb 1:10-12,ps 2:7,2 sam 7:14,heb 1:5,ps 22:22,heb2:12,ps 45:6-7,heb 1:9-10)To put it very simply,the words could be said of both because Christ was used by Jah to fulfill all things.So it is true in a different way for Jesus than it is for Jehovah,yet still true.
examine the following:
Exodus 12:51:And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.
Deuteronomy 32:12:The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him
Exodus 15:22:So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur
Does this mean that since Jehovah accomplished this ALONE that Moses is Jehovah?OR is Jehovah allowed credit for what his servants accomplish?And how do his servants accomplish these things?(John 5:27, John 17:2)Fortunately,the bible always helps us understand these sorts of things,with clarification in other texts(Psalm 77:20)
Jah clarified that He saved using(and by means of) Jesus :)(John 3:16)
also compare:
Exodus 7:17:God [now] says, 'Through this you will know that I am God.' I will strike the water of the Nile with the staff in my hand, and [the water] will turn into blood.
Exodus 7:19,20:[Aaron] held the staff up, and then struck the Nile's water in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials. The Nile's water was transformed into blood.
Self explanatory.
Also compare..
2 Sam reads 24:1 :"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."
1 Chron 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."
Satan and Jehovah are attributed with THE SAME THING..does it make them the same person?
See also:
Matthew 4:10:Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY
1 Chronicles 29:20:Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.
and..
1 Kings 1:23:And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
Sometimes "proskeneo"(worship,bow down,obeisance etc) is appropriate when given to others besides Jehovah..if you don't like it take it up with him.It's RELATIVE "worship.".Proskeneo can mean a number of things and it is applied and accepted a # of times by a number of people.Trinitarians would like to believe this isn't the case..at least from my communication with them..they assume it is the same for Jesus and Jehovah and when anyone else is,it has to mean something else.And I say when it is given to ANYONE besides Jehovah,it means it is to his glory..as the one who appoints certain people to power and allows others to have dominion.If Jesus did anything that wasn't to the glory of his father,prove it.He acknowledged his father's superiority (even AFTER his ascension to heaven) and his reliance upon him at all times.I would venture to say that if you worship Jesus AS Almighty Jehovah God,you're doing something scripture does not tell you to do.Jesus is the second most high over all the universe,STILL second to God.(And NOT because he is in subordination as a wife would be to a husband but because NO ONE is equal to God..not even the one he MADE king,Lord,and firstborn..Acts 2:36,Ps. 89:27,1 Cor 15:27,28)Sons have NEVER not been given life by their fathers.Neva eva.So do trinitarians REALLY know Jesus?
If Jesus is used as the wisdom ,word ,agent and representative of God then yep you better believe they can both be called a lot of the same titles etc.
I dare anybody to find me a privilege,a special power,a glory,a single holy word that Jesus was not given from his own God and father.And if he was given what he has from his God and father,then couldn't it be said that the same titles and phrases would obviously be used for both?And couldn't the scriptures applied to Jah in the OT that are then applied to Jesus in the NT signify either different fulfillments OR just said of either because Jesus is Jah's word,chief messenger,and agent.(THROUGH whom he holds the world together and makes it new,judges,teaches,saves etc)??Keep in mind Jesus is his father's heir to a kingdom,so OF COURSE he is mighty and shares the SAME privileges,but it still doesn't make him the "same being" as the one who gave those to him.When Jehovah in the OT was talking about not sharing his glory etc. ,when you look at context(which is important,no?)he is defending himself as superior to false gods and idols and as the SOURCE of everything and everyone else,even Jesus!Which only makes sense since sons do not exist as the literal same perso"being" or God that their father is.And comparing the equality of a human son to a human father,despite subordination,is not the same as comparing a son of God to God because God is not human and is infinitely greater than everyone.(matt 19:17,john 14:28,john 20:17)Jesus is second in command(does Jah REALLY need to qualify EVERY TIME it says Jesus is above everyone and greater than everything that it is with the exception of the one who made that so??(1 cor 15:27,28),and I am not negating him..He's glad to be there.(John 13:16,John 5:30-32,Rev 1:1)
I'm going to encourage trinitarians to pray to Jehovah and talk to him only for once without even acknowleging Jesus until you are finished and then requesting everything in the name of Jesus..just ONCE to see how it feels.I'm not suggesting you don't acknowledge Jesus in prayer..Sometimes I appeal to and talk to him earnestly and wholeheartedly..I'm just asking you please see if you can't try to distinguish the two in a reasonable way,always requesting a spirit of understanding.(1 tim 2:5,John 14:6,matt 6:9-13)<--go to WHOM ultimately,through whom?Who is the one to ultimately be reached?I am addressing those who only know Jesus and assume that is the totality and end of worship.
Jesus is the way to God yes,the mediator..Does that mean we go to Jesus and stop there or that we reach Jehovah THROUGH him.In other words,isn't reaching Jehovah important in the whole picture?And how can we reach him whom we ignore in favor of only being attentive to our relationship with his appointed king and mediator?(who,mind you,prayed rigorously to and relied upon the same God we should,JAH!)Remember,God is jealous and wants us to use his provisions and understand we are too unholy to reach him without that sacrifice but we are able to now by means of that sacrifice.Take advantage!Jehovah wants you to talk to him and recognize him by means of his beloved Amen.If the mediator is a door to something,isn't the destination to be appreciated and desired?Shouldn't you be reaching both?And the word both alone implies two of something.And two means two.(I love discussing mathematics with trinitarians..who apparently think Jehovah is a times table)There is one Jesus Christ and one Jehovah God and they are not the same God.(1 cor 8:6)Jehovah is allowed to appoint kings and dispense power and give inheritances where he will.And we are to freely give a ton of honor to his most important appointed king,while yet recognizing that Christ is NOT in the same God as the one who bestowed upon him these tremendous blessings.It's common sense,no offense.That doesn't mean the ones he gives these things to literally become him.Just like the disciples won't become Christ even though they are one with him and will share the same responsibilities and glories and throne.(John 17:22,Revelation 2:27,28,Rev 3:21,5:10)
Are you aware one reason why Jehovah had to proclaim his singularity in the OT so much?Besides the fact that there were so many false gods being worshipped,but many of them were triune!From the time of Nimrod,Semaramis,and Tammuz on.When Nimrod died and people wanted someone else to venerate Tammuz(his son) was worshipped as "God the son"!<--THAT's where that phrase originated,NOT from the bible.All triune gods originated from those three in some way.As you can imagine,this had to be most appalling to Jah!I am thinking this is one reason he had to emphasize his singularity.He is defending himself from these triune notions(and other false ones),crying out to you from his holy word!LISTEN.(deut 6:4,psalm 83:18)
Exploring all this I get a little more peeved at the removal of the divine name thousands of times shamelessly from bible translations.Is man's superstition more important than Jehovah's commands?The appalling removal IMO has helped lead to the trinity doctrine.Since Yahweh is called Lord and God almost 7000 times instead of Yahweh,as was in the original texts,people associate common titles(1 cor 8:5) with Jah more than his personal name and so even subconsciously when they see Jesus being called Lord or even a couple times God (possibly...it's certainly debatable) they automatically think Almighty.I'm not suggesting that is the only reason people believe in it but it can't help!I find it personally disturbing that Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation translators are much maligned for inserting the divine name where 200 times (even though I agree they shouldn't have!)in the New Testament but everyone else gets a "get out of jail free" card for removing it almost 7000.(ex 3:15,Ps 145:21,matt 6:9,micah 4:5)
There can only be one first and last!.....If the same words or phrases are used of both it has to mean Jesus is God!
Let's say (and I am TERRIBLE AT THIS but a girl's gotta try)I open the first vegetarian restaurant in my hometown.And the last one,there will be no others.I could be called the first and the last to have done so.If I hired someone first who then hired everyone else FOR ME afterward (using my standards of qualification of course and hey,I'm STILL boss)he /she could be called the first and the last as well.The first person hired directly by me and the last hired directly by me.
I addressed this in another blog ,so I'll make it quick.Look at context..he was dead then alive(first resurrected by God directly)and the last directly by God because look!Jesus was GIVEN the key to resurrect others.(and yes revelation makes it clear by context that this is the most true interpretation,as a diff application)Once again,being USED by God and being bestowed with privileges by God. Also,they are both first and last of their kind.Jehovah is the first and last Almighty God and Jesus is the first and last unique only begotten chief messenger son of God.Also,Jesus is the first new creation of God and the last to be directly created by God alone since every other new creation is IN Christ Jesus as the one who holds it together by power from God.So,yep,diff applications,same terminology.Jah is clever like that.
If you took two similar people,say a father and a son(how convenient) and a book as big as the bible was written about them both,I bet you would find all kinds of similarities,especially if they worked together on everything and had the same jobs and purposes in life,Sharing the same morals and home ,you name it.And if you isolated the words or truths that could be applied to both,you might even think they were the same human being,but would that make it so?And if one was called son and one was called the father of that son,and let's say someone worked for them,and they both held positions higher than that someone,would it mean that the father and the son are the same person and boss?
Same terminology,different applications.
Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings(Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14),of which it SOUNDS like there could be only one!Melchizedeck is said to have no beginning or end of days or priesthood,which SOUNDS like that would be unique to him.But bible readers are aware the same is said of Christ's kingship and priesthood.The bible says that God is Jesus throne(which means he upholds Christ's kingship,as the appointer and statute giver) but that is also said of David and we know from revelation that the anointed members of Christ's bride are to sit up on that same throne!(see also 1 kings 2:24 and 1 chron 29:23)Jesus' disciples ,like Christ, were called "the light of the world." (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) Hebrews is a book that commonly uses OT passages and applies them to Jesus.Passages that formerly applied to David,Solomon and Jehovah.IF you are going to use the standards you want to use as a trinitarian,are you REALLY being fair?Is saying "well ,David and Solomon foreshadowed Christ so it isn't the same thing" a good reason to be bias here?No.Because the same texts are applied to both for the same reasons the ones about Jah are applied to Jesus...DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS AND FULFILLMENTS and pertaining to BOTH in different ways ..that simple.In other words,to be fair and unbiased ,if you are going to assume Jesus is Jehovah by this reasoning,then you MUST assume Jesus is David and Solomon,unless you're simply unwilling to be unbiased.If someone is wondering what I am talking about ..compare these texts :)..(ps 102:25-27, heb 1:10-12,ps 2:7,2 sam 7:14,heb 1:5,ps 22:22,heb2:12,ps 45:6-7,heb 1:9-10)To put it very simply,the words could be said of both because Christ was used by Jah to fulfill all things.So it is true in a different way for Jesus than it is for Jehovah,yet still true.
examine the following:
Exodus 12:51:And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.
Deuteronomy 32:12:The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him
Exodus 15:22:So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur
Does this mean that since Jehovah accomplished this ALONE that Moses is Jehovah?OR is Jehovah allowed credit for what his servants accomplish?And how do his servants accomplish these things?(John 5:27, John 17:2)Fortunately,the bible always helps us understand these sorts of things,with clarification in other texts(Psalm 77:20)
Jah clarified that He saved using(and by means of) Jesus :)(John 3:16)
also compare:
Exodus 7:17:God [now] says, 'Through this you will know that I am God.' I will strike the water of the Nile with the staff in my hand, and [the water] will turn into blood.
Exodus 7:19,20:[Aaron] held the staff up, and then struck the Nile's water in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials. The Nile's water was transformed into blood.
Self explanatory.
Also compare..
2 Sam reads 24:1 :"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."
1 Chron 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."
Satan and Jehovah are attributed with THE SAME THING..does it make them the same person?
See also:
Matthew 4:10:Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY
1 Chronicles 29:20:Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.
and..
1 Kings 1:23:And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
Sometimes "proskeneo"(worship,bow down,obeisance etc) is appropriate when given to others besides Jehovah..if you don't like it take it up with him.It's RELATIVE "worship.".Proskeneo can mean a number of things and it is applied and accepted a # of times by a number of people.Trinitarians would like to believe this isn't the case..at least from my communication with them..they assume it is the same for Jesus and Jehovah and when anyone else is,it has to mean something else.And I say when it is given to ANYONE besides Jehovah,it means it is to his glory..as the one who appoints certain people to power and allows others to have dominion.If Jesus did anything that wasn't to the glory of his father,prove it.He acknowledged his father's superiority (even AFTER his ascension to heaven) and his reliance upon him at all times.I would venture to say that if you worship Jesus AS Almighty Jehovah God,you're doing something scripture does not tell you to do.Jesus is the second most high over all the universe,STILL second to God.(And NOT because he is in subordination as a wife would be to a husband but because NO ONE is equal to God..not even the one he MADE king,Lord,and firstborn..Acts 2:36,Ps. 89:27,1 Cor 15:27,28)Sons have NEVER not been given life by their fathers.Neva eva.So do trinitarians REALLY know Jesus?
If Jesus is used as the wisdom ,word ,agent and representative of God then yep you better believe they can both be called a lot of the same titles etc.
I dare anybody to find me a privilege,a special power,a glory,a single holy word that Jesus was not given from his own God and father.And if he was given what he has from his God and father,then couldn't it be said that the same titles and phrases would obviously be used for both?And couldn't the scriptures applied to Jah in the OT that are then applied to Jesus in the NT signify either different fulfillments OR just said of either because Jesus is Jah's word,chief messenger,and agent.(THROUGH whom he holds the world together and makes it new,judges,teaches,saves etc)??Keep in mind Jesus is his father's heir to a kingdom,so OF COURSE he is mighty and shares the SAME privileges,but it still doesn't make him the "same being" as the one who gave those to him.When Jehovah in the OT was talking about not sharing his glory etc. ,when you look at context(which is important,no?)he is defending himself as superior to false gods and idols and as the SOURCE of everything and everyone else,even Jesus!Which only makes sense since sons do not exist as the literal same perso"being" or God that their father is.And comparing the equality of a human son to a human father,despite subordination,is not the same as comparing a son of God to God because God is not human and is infinitely greater than everyone.(matt 19:17,john 14:28,john 20:17)Jesus is second in command(does Jah REALLY need to qualify EVERY TIME it says Jesus is above everyone and greater than everything that it is with the exception of the one who made that so??(1 cor 15:27,28),and I am not negating him..He's glad to be there.(John 13:16,John 5:30-32,Rev 1:1)
I'm going to encourage trinitarians to pray to Jehovah and talk to him only for once without even acknowleging Jesus until you are finished and then requesting everything in the name of Jesus..just ONCE to see how it feels.I'm not suggesting you don't acknowledge Jesus in prayer..Sometimes I appeal to and talk to him earnestly and wholeheartedly..I'm just asking you please see if you can't try to distinguish the two in a reasonable way,always requesting a spirit of understanding.(1 tim 2:5,John 14:6,matt 6:9-13)<--go to WHOM ultimately,through whom?Who is the one to ultimately be reached?I am addressing those who only know Jesus and assume that is the totality and end of worship.
Jesus is the way to God yes,the mediator..Does that mean we go to Jesus and stop there or that we reach Jehovah THROUGH him.In other words,isn't reaching Jehovah important in the whole picture?And how can we reach him whom we ignore in favor of only being attentive to our relationship with his appointed king and mediator?(who,mind you,prayed rigorously to and relied upon the same God we should,JAH!)Remember,God is jealous and wants us to use his provisions and understand we are too unholy to reach him without that sacrifice but we are able to now by means of that sacrifice.Take advantage!Jehovah wants you to talk to him and recognize him by means of his beloved Amen.If the mediator is a door to something,isn't the destination to be appreciated and desired?Shouldn't you be reaching both?And the word both alone implies two of something.And two means two.(I love discussing mathematics with trinitarians..who apparently think Jehovah is a times table)There is one Jesus Christ and one Jehovah God and they are not the same God.(1 cor 8:6)Jehovah is allowed to appoint kings and dispense power and give inheritances where he will.And we are to freely give a ton of honor to his most important appointed king,while yet recognizing that Christ is NOT in the same God as the one who bestowed upon him these tremendous blessings.It's common sense,no offense.That doesn't mean the ones he gives these things to literally become him.Just like the disciples won't become Christ even though they are one with him and will share the same responsibilities and glories and throne.(John 17:22,Revelation 2:27,28,Rev 3:21,5:10)
Are you aware one reason why Jehovah had to proclaim his singularity in the OT so much?Besides the fact that there were so many false gods being worshipped,but many of them were triune!From the time of Nimrod,Semaramis,and Tammuz on.When Nimrod died and people wanted someone else to venerate Tammuz(his son) was worshipped as "God the son"!<--THAT's where that phrase originated,NOT from the bible.All triune gods originated from those three in some way.As you can imagine,this had to be most appalling to Jah!I am thinking this is one reason he had to emphasize his singularity.He is defending himself from these triune notions(and other false ones),crying out to you from his holy word!LISTEN.(deut 6:4,psalm 83:18)
Exploring all this I get a little more peeved at the removal of the divine name thousands of times shamelessly from bible translations.Is man's superstition more important than Jehovah's commands?The appalling removal IMO has helped lead to the trinity doctrine.Since Yahweh is called Lord and God almost 7000 times instead of Yahweh,as was in the original texts,people associate common titles(1 cor 8:5) with Jah more than his personal name and so even subconsciously when they see Jesus being called Lord or even a couple times God (possibly...it's certainly debatable) they automatically think Almighty.I'm not suggesting that is the only reason people believe in it but it can't help!I find it personally disturbing that Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation translators are much maligned for inserting the divine name where 200 times (even though I agree they shouldn't have!)in the New Testament but everyone else gets a "get out of jail free" card for removing it almost 7000.(ex 3:15,Ps 145:21,matt 6:9,micah 4:5)
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