Thursday, February 26, 2009

Reasoning with trinitarians part 3

This part of the blog is not written by me but is taken from a website,for which I'll provide the link:

Some key points:(lots of texts to look up..git bizzee)

Either Jesus has to be the one true God, or else he is a false god. Carrying this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, Moses must be either the one and only true God or a false god, since he was made ELOHIM to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel must be either the one and only true a true God or a else be false gods, since they were ELOHIM. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 [See Acts 23:5]) The angels must be the only true God or else they are false gods, since they are ELOHIM. (Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim) The sons of God to whom the Logos came must be the only true God or they are false gods, since they are called EL, ELOHIM and THEOI. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 10:34,35) The *EL*of Laban's hand must either be the only true God, or else be a false god. (Genesis 31:29) The EL of the hand of Israel must the only true God, or else be a false god. (Deuteronomy The EL of your hand must be the only true God or else the EL of you hand must be a false god. (Proverbs 3:27) The EL of Ezekiel 32:21 -- the mighty rulers in the nations spoken of in context -- must all be the only true God or else false gods.

Jesus is not his God whom he was with, the only true God who sent him. -- John 17:1,3,5
Jesus denied that he was God by stating over and over that he was sent by the only true God, could do nothing of his own self, everything he had was given to him by God, etc. (Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,22,23,27-30,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26)

Hebrew words for "god", when applied to any other than Yahweh, can take on a more general meaning of might, strength, power.

We can say that there is much in the way of Hebraic cultural heritage that supports the idea that one can be scripturally be called or have the title of "God" in a sense other than that of Supreme Being, or the Supreme Power.

When considering the Hebrew word *EL*, that this word is used to mean other than God Almighty or a false god may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in denoted by *..*: "It is in the *power* of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no *might* in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our *power*." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the *great* mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the *power* of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Pray unto *a god* [mighty one] that cannot save." (Isaiah 45:20) "Who among the sons of the *mighty*." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*." (Psalm 29:1) "The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh]." (Psalm 50:1) "The *strong* among the mighty shall speak" (Ezekiel 32:21)

Now my thoughts:
If someone is one hundred percent God then they are not one hundred percent man unless you are willing to ignore simple truth in favor of wild philosophy and mathematical impossibility.Again,understanding the Hebrew times,God's agents WERE God(as designated reps whose words and actions were not their own but by means of the spirit and allowance of Jah) and God doesn't always mean false god OR true Almighty God and as seen from numerous texts can mean a mighty ,powerful being,and not always a false one.The false ones are not really either mighty,or powerful.So when Jah called David and Moses God he meant "mighty ones"..mighty by whose power?According to Isaiah 9:7 by whose zeal and power was Jesus made mighty?

Jesus profusely prayed for a reason(besides love),he feared,in his mortal flesh,that he might be abandoned,even though I'm sure he knew better.The flesh is weak.(and trinitarians think God could actually do this or even empty himself..twisting texts that say his SON did,NOT HIM)While trying to make sense of the fact that Jesus deserves praise,obeisance and glory ALONG with Jehovah,trinitarians have wrongfully assumed they HAVE to be the same God..because God is one right?Just a wee bit of reasoning should help one to realize that Jesus is glorifying the Almighty as His appointed chief agent and heavenly king.Remember the earthly kings were rendered service and obeisance,so one shouldn't marvel at Jesus having such,while STILL being just a SON,the MOST exalted son :)It is the same as honoring Jehovah ,as he is the one who appointed them and gave them power and might.(Jah will hand the kingdom over to Christ for a 1000 yrs so it is him,who possesses Jah's spirit without measure whom we are honoring and obeying to the glory of his father,who loves him more than we can fathom and who allows him and wills unto him all this amazing power)To put it blatantly simply,serving Jah's representatives and appointed kings is the same as serving him.Their words and dealings are NOT THEIR OWN when they are accomplishing his will.

Keep in mind also that Lord is applied to many as well ,and rightfully so,not because these people are Jehovah,but because lord is a title of the head of someone or the head of peoples(gen 18:20,matt 10:24,20:8,21:30,27:63,1 pet 3:6,mark 13:35,acts 25:26)Jah GIVES Jesus his designation,might and power just as he did Moses.Doesn't Jehovah deserve credit for what his servants do?So when Jehovah does something,then it says someone else did that same something,does it mean that the persons involved must be the same?Or maybe it means he uses agents and takes rightful credit?<--yep.Who could've done anything without his direction and spirit??(and designation)I challenge trinitarians to give me an instance where Jesus didn't have to be given something,again.Where was his God and father not credited?If it would be common sense for us to know the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron were from God's hand and spirit,why do we assume Jesus's weren't?Even when he said they were?!Even when the bible makes clear he has been and will be used for Jah to accomplish things through?If Jah's glory can surround an angel as his representative then why must Jesus be Jah just because he shares that glory too? **Luke 2:9-11: “And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city.’ ”(his reps gleam with his glory in more ways than one..the glory could be literal or it could be a miracle he performs through them,or a power he allows them to possess,ALL things to Jehovah's glory,the one who sends and the one who gives freely,especially to his most beloved!) **Isaiah 11:2:The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.(remember that dove descending?Jah's spirit without measure is always with his messiah!Notice,too that Jesus even has a healthy fear of the LORD..remember the constant supplication. **Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. 19 If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I myself will make him answer for it. ..So Jah's messages are in the mouths of his agents.Just like his miracles and salvation are in the ones he sends forth to accomplish those things. **Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face..So Ezekial credits himself with something Jehovah did,as his agent. **Jeremiah 1:9:Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth 10. See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant..So when we see that Jeremiah breaks down,overthrows,builds,plants etc..then couldn't it be said of either Jeremiah or Jehovah?And couldn't Jehovah say that he does all this alone since it is only by means of his spirit that Jeremiah could? **Jeremiah 2:2 :Go and announce to Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: I remember the unfailing loyalty of your youth, the love you had for me as a bride. I remember how you followed me into the desert, into a land that couldn't be farmed....again,they followed Jeremiah,and as Jah's rep,they were following Jah. **Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God. ..take note of Moses speaking AS God!..his words are not his own(in verse 6)!(who else's words were not his own?) **Job 42:11:and comforted him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him-->so did Jehovah cause the suffering of Job?Nope,but his allowing it made it attributable to him in that respect.So here we have Jah given credit for something Satan did because Jah didn't stop it.

**Gen. 40:8:Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me them, I pray you....Now the reason I pasted this text is this..Joseph,who said the words then proceeded to interpret the dreams!IF Jesus had said these words and then proceeded to do what Joseph did it would be cited all the time and used as proof of the trinity.Therefore when a servant(and yes Jesus served Jehovah and still does) of Jah's does something miraculous,what can we conclude?That they had no help?Then when they do accomplish something by means of God's spirit,I ask you,again,couldn't Jehovah say HE accomplished it ,alone even?

The book "Alleged Discrepancies in the Bible" by John W. Haley :
"It is consistent with Hebrew modes of thought that whatever occurs in the world, under the overruling providence of God, what he suffers to take place, should be attributed to his agency."

Imagine you have a God and father you know intimately well because he revealed his spirit fully to you and that you lived closer to him and ARE closer to him than any other child he has.Imagine your God needed you to accomplish something for him because for whatever reason he couldn't(his magnificence could not be beheld ,he could not possibly die etc) and he gave you the words to say and a thorough instruction guide to get things done,would you ignore all his wishes and commands?What if you loved him more than anyone in the world could ever fathom?What if he epitomized love himself AND promised you a fantastic reward upon completion of his assignment?What if he possessed some sort of majestic force he uses to help his will get accomplished and could pour it out anywhere or upon anyone he so desired?What if he used that force to be present with you and generously poured it upon you to help you make it through the assignment?And imagine upon completion of it,you get rewarded and he commands everyone to revere you with the same reverence they revere him as someone who ensured them their eternal lives in a perfect kingdom by what you accomplished.In no way by doing this though,was he negating his position as your boss and the one who gave you the power and will and even your very life to accomplish his will.And when you are freely and generously given all your power,will you ignore all that you have learned and all that you will learn from the one who gave it to you?Will you use the standards of the very one who you proclaim is your God and greater than you when you accomplish HIS WILL?Do you think he will abandon you in your future assignments ,you and your brothers that he allowed you to adopt as your own just because he loves you?He will always be there for you and you will always be his most beloved,faithful and true.Faithful and true and beloved to whom?Sent and used as agent and representative for whom?YOURSELF?When does all this suddenly MAKE YOU THE SAME GOD WHO SENT YOU AND GAVE YOU EVERYTHING?

The father GAVE Jesus EVERYTHING right?And what about the father being the only true God can't people grasp?(Mark 12:28-34)If Jesus was 1/3 of a godhead he wouldn't have distinguished himself from another third as lesser or had to be given anything from anyone.In no way shape or form can 1/3 of God be submissive to another 1/3 of God unless you are willing to open your window and toss logic clear to timbuktu in favor of biblically condemned philosophical leanings that were and apparently still are prevalent.Erroneous manmade "puffed up" "knowledge" outside of God's simple truth of his singularity and Jesus singularity,sonship,as messiah and king BY GOD'S appointment.God is now his own king?God is now his own God?God became a man?God died?God was tempted and possessed a will different than his own?God is his own father?God constantly gave 1/3 of himself credit for another 1/3's sayings and doings?1/3 of God inherited what another 1/3 of God had because 1/3 of God had emptied himself?You'll have to excuse me for my inability to grasp this wild philosophical greek-inspired conjecture,but didn't the bible say that he sent his SON?When did Son of God start meaning God?Who was the first trinitarian?And where does God or Jesus talk about their substances enough to start formulating creeds about it?Aren't all heavenly beings composed of a celestial nature?Who are trinitarians to define the nature and substance of the Almighty?Shouldn't we stick to what IS revealed?And if I am out of line saying 1/3 a lot because each person of the "godhead" is each 100% percent God then you'll just have to excuse me for saying you have 3 100% Gods.And if that angers you,you have to understand that is NOT my intention.I'm just being realistic and seeking to expose a doctrine I clearly oppose as a truth seeker and a holder to the singularity of the one and ONLY Almighty.(Deut 6:4,John 17:3,Ps. 83:18)It hurts me a little to see sincere people who have an awesome zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge,the very thing I am accused of.(Rom. 10:2)

"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas:

"When we take into account the inevitable "falling away" or "apostasy" foretold in the Christian scriptures,and at the same time appreciating the very real influence of invisible though hostile spiritual forces that surround us,as well as the overall weakness and fallibility intrinsic to the human condition,it becomes to a certain degree understandable that devout students of the bible have gone into different directions on such a crucial matter."

"Nearly every argument made to advance and uphold this established doctrine always relies on a notable excessive degree of theological inference,an unusual and innovative kind of thinking,and even,in certain cases,farfetched philosophical speculation based on preconceived views and already established theological concepts."

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