Sunday, February 15, 2009

Reasoning with Trinitarians part 2

I know there are mysteries about God that as finite wee humans we cannot comprehend,but thankfully what he has revealed we can know.And he has revealed that he is not a trinity..And Jesus has revealed that he is inferior,even after his ascension.(John 14:28,eph 1:17)Common sense and scripture unite to declare to us the simple truth of Jehovah and his appointed king!

What does the spirit of the antichrist confess?That Jesus never came in the flesh and that he never died and was raised?

Don't trinitarians believe that Jesus was 100% God AS WELL as 100% flesh.Can God be flesh?(num 23:19,rom 1:23)And where does the bible say he was 100 percent God on top of that 100 percent flesh?(1 cor 15:21)I only see that he was flesh .(1 tim 2:5)Trinitarians also believe Jesus as "God the son" never died.Guess what?Jesus died,and not just a flesh capsule of his.Is Jesus REALLY 2 natures..because the trinitarian numbers add up to 200 percent.(trinitarians employ "voodoo" mathematics ;)The bible makes clear that Jesus,ALL of him,the ACTUAL PERSON of him died.For three whole days.If someone has proof otherwise,bring it on.And if your proof is that his spirit went to God then I urge you to look up the definition of that word used for spirit and realize that happens to everyone at death.(Luke 23:46).Is no one really dead?And what is up with the whole resurrection thing if not?(acts 24:15)And why are the dead described by Jesus as sleeping?(John 11:11)And the bible as having no thoughts etc.?(ecc 9:5,10)Spirit can mean life(pneuma ),and when we die our future life prospects,clearly,are given back to Jehovah.(ps 146:4)Who can restore "the breath of life" to us just as he did to Jesus upon OUR resurrection.(gen 2:7)I keep emphasizing these points because if someone is willing to be honest with scripture and self,one MUST admit Jesus died and therefore cannot be God.And that if anyone doesn't believe Jesus REALLY DIED for us(ALL OF HIM),he is hazardously confessing a "different Jesus".(2 cor 11:3,4..apostasy started way back even then!)Did anyone in the bible who was resurrected ever mention the torment they had burning alive or the bliss they had in heaven before they were brought back??Wonder why that is?Death means lack of breath,thinking ability,speech,you name it..Anything beyond that is not biblical.Dead can be brought BACK to life.(1 cor 15:40)It's basic truth.Are you maybe just reasoning through a "what you've always been taught" kind of lens?(mark 7:13)I hope upon further prayerful examination and meditation you will consider that Jesus was REALLY flesh when he came to the earth,which rules out the ability to be God.(Is 31:3,1 tim 6:16.John 4:24)And that he was REALLY dead for three days,not alive.Otherwise,again,you have been taught "another Jesus" than that which the bible declares(1 tim 1:3).No death,no atonement.Death of only one nature of 2,unbiblical.(mark 8:31,col 2:8)And not a real *death* according to the bible's own definition of the word!

I don't agree with all this person believes but I found this page interesting..check it out!(I've never seen anyone put Jesus on a witness stand in a blog before.)

Interestingly enough,trinitarians oft say that only God would be good enough to have died to remove our sin from us,yet they say God didn't die,just his human nature.But by that very reasoning,wouldn't his human nature alone not have been good enough?

**Matt 27:62-64:'**He**(a person,not just a flesh capsule that once had a person in it) has risen from the dead

**Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

**Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades.(Jesus)

**John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”

**John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”

**Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)

**The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:16)

**Hebrews 5:7 "As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God".

I for one can't appreciate the philosophical spin trinitarians put on who Jehovah and Jesus are.(1 cor 8:6,John 17:3)

Another objection:Jesus is given God's name so he must be God.(John 17:11)First of all if someone is given something he isn't the one who gave it.Just like if someone is representing someone else(I don't care how perfectly) that person cannot be the one they represent.Being in the form of someone ALSO excludes the possibility that you are that someone.(trinity "proof" texts usually refute themselves.)

Jesus LITERALLY means "Jehovah is salvation" so everytime you are calling upon Jesus name you are calling on Jehovah's.(For those of you who think it is unuterrable and too holy to be recognized.)There's a new name given to all sons if God.(rev 14:1)Jehovah's name is said to be in his agents.(ex 23:20,21)As his agents of message deliverance and salvation(in Jesus case) they bear his name..His name is his will.And he uses his agents to "cause whatever he wills to become."His name means "he causes to become".So whoever he uses to cause his will to take place,bear his name.(ex 7:1)That simple.Whomever he uses become "as God' and whomever he speaks through,CAN be termed "Yahweh" as his word if Yahweh so wills.THE AGENT BEARS THE NAME OF THE PRINCIPLE.(especially if they are chief agent or specially favored,as would the Angel of Yah and Jesus have been..)This is typical in Hebrew times!And a Hebrew truth that trinitarians haven't recognized,at least not in the case of Jesus.His agents are even "proskuneo'd" to his glory,not just Jesus.Those who did recognized who it REALLY was they were honoring,as his representatives and appointed kings etc.As lords and gods.(yes,real lords and gods..there should be no implication here that these common titles mean Sovereign Lord Most High of the universe).Clearly,Jah is one.And he means one..not triune,which doesn't mean one.I would like to make perfectly clear that God makes perfectly clear his singularity,nor does he shy away from saying "I am God.Worship me"..something Jesus neva eva said.However he did say a lot of things that proved he was inferior,and not because he is Godman,but because he is inferior as God's Son and servant.(consistently)ONLY to Jah though,he's above everyone else.(1 cor 15:27,28)I think the most exalted appointed king of the Most High God deserves sacred service and obeisance.(even less important earthly kings had these things) Worship means all kinds of things .You don't know him if you think he IS the same being as the one HE worships,supplicating with his face to the ground!His will was even different and so he had to beg for it to conform.

Trinitarians think God has a God.Amazing.I think one of the problems trinitarians have is reconciling the fact that Jesus has SO much power but yet isn't God.But think of all the things the OT reps and the NT disciples accomplished due to his spirit being upon them.Then multiply that by whatever number because Jesus is the greatest of all his messengers for obvious reasons,but you STILL have a messenger and someone GIVEN their power,any which way you cut it.(john 3:34,6:57,7:16,17,28-30,8:16,26,col 1:3)

I have a page I want to recommend for understanding the whole agent/principle thing.Just read under "AGENCY"

Jehovah will continue to use Jesus as his chief agent in EVERYTHING.Saving,building and maintaining a kingdom,holding together a new creation,judging,resurrecting,you name it.(John 14:6,1 cor 8:6,rev 1:1,John 5:19,27,heb 1:2,acts 2:36,2 Cor. 5:17,18,Dan. 7:13,14).

Not a single soul can find an instance where Jesus isn't given everything he has,from words to power etc.(have you read Matt,Mark,Luke and John lately?)And that to me is powerful proof indeed that not only is he not Jehovah,but that he depends upon him for his EVERY word deed and power.Now how in the world could anyone take that fact and think "Jesus is Jehovah"?!

John 13:16: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.(ahem..1 cor 15:27,28..use it or lose it ;)

John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

John 5: 43-44: I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?

John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

One last trinitarian objection I will address..John 12:41 talks about Isaiah seeing Jesus glory but Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory in Isaiah 6:1 so Jesus must be Jehovah!!


Now Isaiah spoke about Jesus all through Isaiah ch 52 and 53 and the glory as represented by his suffering and resurrection.And according to context John ch 12(vs 23 & 37,38 to name just a couple) IS talking about Isaiah chs 52 &53...THAT is WHEN Isaiah spoke about Jesus..he didn't speak about Jesus in Isaiah ch 6...He did see a manifestation or a representation of Yahweh in Isaiah 6 though.Yahweh is the one who gave him the words TO SAY about Jesus in the 52nd and 53rd chapter.

Iaiah 52:10: LORD has bared his holy arm(that would be Jesus) in the sight of all the nations; All the ends of the earth will behold the salvation of our God...13:See, my servant shall prosper, he shall be raised high and greatly exalted

Isaiah 53:1:Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (is 51:9)
4:Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5:But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
11:After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

See also John 2:11:Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.(so glory is revealed in MANY ways..see also..John 11:4,1 Peter 1:11)

further explanation for this from this website:

Which says:
Isaiah saw the glory of the Messiah in his work.It was this work that was truly his glory. He lived, suffered and died, by which he “bore the sins of many,” (Isa. 53:12) resulting in our salvation.

As John points out, Isaiah himself had a basic understanding of this astounding unfaith. Isaiah experienced unbelieving rejection in his own ministry, but even more he saw Jesus’ glory [death/resurrection] and spoke about him."

When we consider John 12 we find that Isaiah 53:1 is quoted and is the primary text in view, whereas the passage from Isaiah 6 is cited to only further explain this primary text."

Jehovah isn't selfish in the allowance of his agents to bear strength and glory!However,he will never allow false idols or false gods to do so..which is the context the texts about him sharing his glory with no one should be viewed in light of..the surrounding events.And those were that people were praising graven images etc.Also,the texts about Yah being the only God and savior should be viewed in light of this context,as others ARE properly termed gods and saviors.Jesus is the chief inheritor of the greatest blessings of Jah.We live because of his sufferings,and so why,again,WOULDN'T Jah reward him for THAT?!

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