Monday, February 9, 2009

Reasoning with trinitarians.

What I have heard one too many times:
There can only be one first and last!.....If the same words or phrases are used of both it has to mean Jesus is God!

Let's say (and I am TERRIBLE AT THIS but a girl's gotta try)I open the first vegetarian restaurant in my hometown.And the last one,there will be no others.I could be called the first and the last to have done so.If I hired someone first who then hired everyone else FOR ME afterward (using my standards of qualification of course and hey,I'm STILL boss)he /she could be called the first and the last as well.The first person hired directly by me and the last hired directly by me.

I addressed this in another blog ,so I'll make it quick.Look at context..he was dead then alive(first resurrected by God directly)and the last directly by God because look!Jesus was GIVEN the key to resurrect others.(and yes revelation makes it clear by context that this is the most true interpretation,as a diff application)Once again,being USED by God and being bestowed with privileges by God. Also,they are both first and last of their kind.Jehovah is the first and last Almighty God and Jesus is the first and last unique only begotten chief messenger son of God.Also,Jesus is the first new creation of God and the last to be directly created by God alone since every other new creation is IN Christ Jesus as the one who holds it together by power from God.So,yep,diff applications,same terminology.Jah is clever like that.

If you took two similar people,say a father and a son(how convenient) and a book as big as the bible was written about them both,I bet you would find all kinds of similarities,especially if they worked together on everything and had the same jobs and purposes in life,Sharing the same morals and home ,you name it.And if you isolated the words or truths that could be applied to both,you might even think they were the same human being,but would that make it so?And if one was called son and one was called the father of that son,and let's say someone worked for them,and they both held positions higher than that someone,would it mean that the father and the son are the same person and boss?

Same terminology,different applications.

Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings(Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14),of which it SOUNDS like there could be only one!Melchizedeck is said to have no beginning or end of days or priesthood,which SOUNDS like that would be unique to him.But bible readers are aware the same is said of Christ's kingship and priesthood.The bible says that God is Jesus throne(which means he upholds Christ's kingship,as the appointer and statute giver) but that is also said of David and we know from revelation that the anointed members of Christ's bride are to sit up on that same throne!(see also 1 kings 2:24 and 1 chron 29:23)Jesus' disciples ,like Christ, were called "the light of the world." (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) Hebrews is a book that commonly uses OT passages and applies them to Jesus.Passages that formerly applied to David,Solomon and Jehovah.IF you are going to use the standards you want to use as a trinitarian,are you REALLY being fair?Is saying "well ,David and Solomon foreshadowed Christ so it isn't the same thing" a good reason to be bias here?No.Because the same texts are applied to both for the same reasons the ones about Jah are applied to Jesus...DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS AND FULFILLMENTS and pertaining to BOTH in different ways ..that simple.In other words,to be fair and unbiased ,if you are going to assume Jesus is Jehovah by this reasoning,then you MUST assume Jesus is David and Solomon,unless you're simply unwilling to be unbiased.If someone is wondering what I am talking about these texts :)..(ps 102:25-27, heb 1:10-12,ps 2:7,2 sam 7:14,heb 1:5,ps 22:22,heb2:12,ps 45:6-7,heb 1:9-10)To put it very simply,the words could be said of both because Christ was used by Jah to fulfill all things.So it is true in a different way for Jesus than it is for Jehovah,yet still true.

examine the following:

Exodus 12:51:And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.
Deuteronomy 32:12:The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him

Exodus 15:22:So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur

Does this mean that since Jehovah accomplished this ALONE that Moses is Jehovah?OR is Jehovah allowed credit for what his servants accomplish?And how do his servants accomplish these things?(John 5:27, John 17:2)Fortunately,the bible always helps us understand these sorts of things,with clarification in other texts(Psalm 77:20)

Jah clarified that He saved using(and by means of) Jesus :)(John 3:16)

also compare:

Exodus 7:17:God [now] says, 'Through this you will know that I am God.' I will strike the water of the Nile with the staff in my hand, and [the water] will turn into blood.

Exodus 7:19,20:[Aaron] held the staff up, and then struck the Nile's water in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials. The Nile's water was transformed into blood.

Self explanatory.

Also compare..

2 Sam reads 24:1 :"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."

1 Chron 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."

Satan and Jehovah are attributed with THE SAME THING..does it make them the same person?

See also:

Matthew 4:10:Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY

1 Chronicles 29:20:Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.


1 Kings 1:23:And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.

Sometimes "proskeneo"(worship,bow down,obeisance etc) is appropriate when given to others besides Jehovah..if you don't like it take it up with him.It's RELATIVE "worship.".Proskeneo can mean a number of things and it is applied and accepted a # of times by a number of people.Trinitarians would like to believe this isn't the least from my communication with them..they assume it is the same for Jesus and Jehovah and when anyone else is,it has to mean something else.And I say when it is given to ANYONE besides Jehovah,it means it is to his the one who appoints certain people to power and allows others to have dominion.If Jesus did anything that wasn't to the glory of his father,prove it.He acknowledged his father's superiority (even AFTER his ascension to heaven) and his reliance upon him at all times.I would venture to say that if you worship Jesus AS Almighty Jehovah God,you're doing something scripture does not tell you to do.Jesus is the second most high over all the universe,STILL second to God.(And NOT because he is in subordination as a wife would be to a husband but because NO ONE is equal to God..not even the one he MADE king,Lord,and firstborn..Acts 2:36,Ps. 89:27,1 Cor 15:27,28)Sons have NEVER not been given life by their fathers.Neva eva.So do trinitarians REALLY know Jesus?

If Jesus is used as the wisdom ,word ,agent and representative of God then yep you better believe they can both be called a lot of the same titles etc.

I dare anybody to find me a privilege,a special power,a glory,a single holy word that Jesus was not given from his own God and father.And if he was given what he has from his God and father,then couldn't it be said that the same titles and phrases would obviously be used for both?And couldn't the scriptures applied to Jah in the OT that are then applied to Jesus in the NT signify either different fulfillments OR just said of either because Jesus is Jah's word,chief messenger,and agent.(THROUGH whom he holds the world together and makes it new,judges,teaches,saves etc)??Keep in mind Jesus is his father's heir to a kingdom,so OF COURSE he is mighty and shares the SAME privileges,but it still doesn't make him the "same being" as the one who gave those to him.When Jehovah in the OT was talking about not sharing his glory etc. ,when you look at context(which is important,no?)he is defending himself as superior to false gods and idols and as the SOURCE of everything and everyone else,even Jesus!Which only makes sense since sons do not exist as the literal same perso"being" or God that their father is.And comparing the equality of a human son to a human father,despite subordination,is not the same as comparing a son of God to God because God is not human and is infinitely greater than everyone.(matt 19:17,john 14:28,john 20:17)Jesus is second in command(does Jah REALLY need to qualify EVERY TIME it says Jesus is above everyone and greater than everything that it is with the exception of the one who made that so??(1 cor 15:27,28),and I am not negating him..He's glad to be there.(John 13:16,John 5:30-32,Rev 1:1)

I'm going to encourage trinitarians to pray to Jehovah and talk to him only for once without even acknowleging Jesus until you are finished and then requesting everything in the name of Jesus..just ONCE to see how it feels.I'm not suggesting you don't acknowledge Jesus in prayer..Sometimes I appeal to and talk to him earnestly and wholeheartedly..I'm just asking you please see if you can't try to distinguish the two in a reasonable way,always requesting a spirit of understanding.(1 tim 2:5,John 14:6,matt 6:9-13)<--go to WHOM ultimately,through whom?Who is the one to ultimately be reached?I am addressing those who only know Jesus and assume that is the totality and end of worship.

Jesus is the way to God yes,the mediator..Does that mean we go to Jesus and stop there or that we reach Jehovah THROUGH him.In other words,isn't reaching Jehovah important in the whole picture?And how can we reach him whom we ignore in favor of only being attentive to our relationship with his appointed king and mediator?(who,mind you,prayed rigorously to and relied upon the same God we should,JAH!)Remember,God is jealous and wants us to use his provisions and understand we are too unholy to reach him without that sacrifice but we are able to now by means of that sacrifice.Take advantage!Jehovah wants you to talk to him and recognize him by means of his beloved Amen.If the mediator is a door to something,isn't the destination to be appreciated and desired?Shouldn't you be reaching both?And the word both alone implies two of something.And two means two.(I love discussing mathematics with trinitarians..who apparently think Jehovah is a times table)There is one Jesus Christ and one Jehovah God and they are not the same God.(1 cor 8:6)Jehovah is allowed to appoint kings and dispense power and give inheritances where he will.And we are to freely give a ton of honor to his most important appointed king,while yet recognizing that Christ is NOT in the same God as the one who bestowed upon him these tremendous blessings.It's common sense,no offense.That doesn't mean the ones he gives these things to literally become him.Just like the disciples won't become Christ even though they are one with him and will share the same responsibilities and glories and throne.(John 17:22,Revelation 2:27,28,Rev 3:21,5:10)

Are you aware one reason why Jehovah had to proclaim his singularity in the OT so much?Besides the fact that there were so many false gods being worshipped,but many of them were triune!From the time of Nimrod,Semaramis,and Tammuz on.When Nimrod died and people wanted someone else to venerate Tammuz(his son) was worshipped as "God the son"!<--THAT's where that phrase originated,NOT from the bible.All triune gods originated from those three in some way.As you can imagine,this had to be most appalling to Jah!I am thinking this is one reason he had to emphasize his singularity.He is defending himself from these triune notions(and other false ones),crying out to you from his holy word!LISTEN.(deut 6:4,psalm 83:18)

Exploring all this I get a little more peeved at the removal of the divine name thousands of times shamelessly from bible translations.Is man's superstition more important than Jehovah's commands?The appalling removal IMO has helped lead to the trinity doctrine.Since Yahweh is called Lord and God almost 7000 times instead of Yahweh,as was in the original texts,people associate common titles(1 cor 8:5) with Jah more than his personal name and so even subconsciously when they see Jesus being called Lord or even a couple times God ('s certainly debatable) they automatically think Almighty.I'm not suggesting that is the only reason people believe in it but it can't help!I find it personally disturbing that Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation translators are much maligned for inserting the divine name where 200 times (even though I agree they shouldn't have!)in the New Testament but everyone else gets a "get out of jail free" card for removing it almost 7000.(ex 3:15,Ps 145:21,matt 6:9,micah 4:5)

1 comment:

  1. Oh sister, I love your rant! Honesty, I don't get where all the confusion comes from. I was not raised "in the truth", but the TRUTH is so plain to see. I trust that rightfully disposed hearts and minds will and do get it. Satan is just really hard at work here, and he's done a darn good job! Maybe you can direct some of your friends or family to my blog so they can watch my slide shows. Also, good job with your illustrations!!