Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Imaginary conversation with a trinitarian

Kellie:You think 3 persons each individually called almighty God equals one God?
trinitarian:yes,3 persons,1 GOD
Kellie:How did you come to this conclusion?
trinitarian:those three persons are each called God so it has to mean they are all one God,because God is one
Kellie:So it doesn't matter to you that all kinds of people are called God,from Moses to angels to judges?
trinitarian:It is different because Jesus is worshipped and given God's name
Kellie:It doesn't matter to you that others are "proskeneo'd" to God's glory and given God's name as well?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus
Kellie:I agree that Jesus is more important than these others but does that mean he is God just because of his being exalted BY GOD above others?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..he shares God's throne and glory
Kellie:What of the others who do?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus because he is the EXACT representation of God's glory and ALL THE FULLNESS of God was in him in bodily form
Kellie:The bible says Jesus was given God's holy spirit WITHOUT measure,explaining his representing him so poignantly.Also,If Jesus is Almighty God and all of Jesus' fullness dwells in believers,does that mean they too have to be equally Almighty God?
trinitarian:Jesus is called the first and the last,the almighty,the alpha and Omega
Kellie:Actually he is only called the first and the last as a different application than that to Jehovah.It is succintly explained in context..first raised from the dead,last directly by Jah because he was GIVEN the key to death and hades,so that THROUGH him all others would be raised.It is QUITE common in scripture to apply identical phrases to different people because it could be said of BOTH for different reasons,in different applications and fulfillments
trinitarian:You mean to tell me you think there can be more than one first and last?
Kellie:yes,when you look at context absolutely..it is explained if you are willing to reason.BOTH times he is the immediate context is his death and resurrection.
trinitarian:What about Jehovah being called almighty as the one coming..we know Jesus is coming,not Jehovah so Jesus has to be Jehovah
Kellie:You don't think Jehovah will be with Jesus to exact vengeance?You don't think Jesus will use his father's standards and direction in judging etc?The bible says he'll be coming in the glory of his father and the angels!You don't think that the way of Jehovah IS the way of Jesus since Jesus does everything his father tells him to do and lives by his fathers standards?And Jesus isn't ever called almighty.
trintarian:you're dancing around the issue..They're each individually almighty God,but there's only one almighty God,existing in 3 persons.That simple.
trinitarian:the trinity is a bit of a mystery because great is the mystery of godliness
Kellie:It's only a mystery if it hasn't been revealed.What do you think of Deuteronomy 6:4?
trinitarian:I think echad denotes unity of persons
Kellie:Echad means a numerical one just like the English language "one" functions."Show me an instance where echad denotes unity with more than one person involved in that unity when those persons aren't all mentioned
trinitarian:I'll have to look into that
triniatrian:Mind if I show you a list of titles applied to both that can only be applied to Jehovah?
Kellie:that'll be fine if you'll allow me as well to present to you a list of titles used of others and used of Jesus as well that would SEEM to be exclusive to either.
trinitarian:that's different because these people foreshadowed Jesus
Kellie:so you don't think it could also be that those words apply to both in different applications and not just because of foreshadowing?In other words..those words and phrases can be applied to both in separate fulfillments.Jesus is Yah's agent.And are you willing to say that all these people whom Jah created foreshadow Jah,whom you think Jesus is?
trinitarian:no ,they just foreshadow his human nature
Kellie:Where does the bible say Jesus was a hundred percent Jehovah on top of a hundred percent man?
trinitarian:that's just common sense because God can't stop being God even when he empties himself
Kellie:where does the bible say Jehovah emptied himself?Doesn't the bible say that Jesus humbled himself even though he was the Last Adam,heir to a throne, and that Jesus is Jehovah's son?
trinitarian:Son of God=God like son of man=man
Kellie:Isn't that a wild assumption since God created ALL things and man did not?
trinitarian:It's clear
Kellie:I think so too..I think son of God means son of God.Angels are sons of God.
Trinitarian:To which of the angels did he ever say that?!
Kellie:Jesus is the only begotten unique son of God because he was born of a virgin by God's spirit and most extolled heir.He conquered the world to save our lives.
trinitarian:that's another thing..only God can save us
Kellie: I agree..he designated someone to do so. But in the scales of justice who was powerful enough to make all of us lose our lives?
Kellie:yes..wasn't he first created perfect earthly son of God?
Kellie:Isn't God perfectly just?
Kellie:so why then wouldn't another perfect creation of God be good enough to buy back what another had lost?
trinitarian:He said no God after him was formed.If you think Jesus is a "little god", you're a polytheist
Kellie:there are many gods,only one true Jehovah almighty God.No one else is Jehovah but Jehovah.Even when his agents are given his name,it is only a Hebrew right.Their words and actions are not their own when his spirit is directing them.Are you willing to say that People God HIMSELF called gods and lords are false ones?I'm not.
trinitarian:are you willing to give worship and sacred service to a creature?
Kellie:Are you willing to admit that created designated powerful beings are sometimes as chief agents and representatives of the Most High given "proskeneo" to Jehovah's glory?And rendered service BECAUSE they are upholding Jah's statutes in their powerful positions that he gave them?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..his name is above EVERY name.
Kellie:you think it is above Jehovah's?In light of 1 cor 15:27,28 are you willing to say that in instances where Jesus is above everyone else that it must mean he is Jehovah?Isn't it common sense to know that ,again,according to 1 Corinthians that it is obviously WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who MADE him above all things?Does Jehovah have to qualify that simple discernible truth every time?
trinitarian:In other words..you're willing to worship a creature and serve a creature and credit a creature for your salvation.
Kellie:I'm willing to accept Jesus as designated Lord,savior and theocratic king.Again,Jehovah allows his CHIEF agents obeisance.I have instances where it is appropriate ,but always to HIS glory,if you'd like to go through a few.I recognize that Jehovah saved and that Jehovah rules THROUGH Jesus.That we are to give those taking the lead among us "double honor" etc..Jesus is miles above them so why not honor him?As the one who most perfectly follows his father's footsteps,he has been rewarded with our honor and Jehovah's exaltation like no other!
trinitarian:sounds like creature worship to me.
Kellie:when angels and kings at times were "proskeneo'd" you think it was inappropriate?
trinitarian:Angels and kings aren't worshipped.Only Jehovah ,in 3 persons,is!They may be honored,but not worshipped
Kellie:The SAME word is used,and it can mean a number of things.If Jehovah told you that you were standing on sacred ground because a mighty angel showed up as his chief representative before you,would you bow before him,recognizing whose glory he was representative of,and whose words he was delivering,to the glory of the chief angel's God?Wasn't Moses called God?Weren't angels called gods?Why were Jah's kings "proskeneo'd"?
trinitarian:I'm not willing to worship a creature.
Kellie:Jesus isn't just some creature.He was exalted above the angels.Notice though that it doesn't say it was his rightful position but that he was rewarded ONLY BECAUSE of his perfect obedience and faithfulness?It says he was better ONLY to the extent that he inherited a name better,not that he has some inherent greater ontology or greek substance.When one is exalted it means they are raised to a higher position than they had before.
Trinitarian:right,he was exalted again back to where he was because he had emptied himself
Kellie:But if he was always equally almighty God then that human nature shouldn't have mattered.You can't be exalted by someone if you are 100 percent God.
trinitarian:you are ignoring the human nature
Kellie:My point is the God nature should trump the human and negate the fact that the human nature would have any limitations at all.
trinitarian:I'm not sure I get what you mean
Kellie:Jesus was exalted ,not from his human nature,but from his previous position as Jah's chief word and representative to his chief word and representative PLUS theocratic king of Jah's kingdom government,with a much touted admired name that is above every other except the One's who gave it to him,one that he EARNED through love,supplication,obedience and saving mankind.
trinitarian:Oh so you don't think Jesus is God?lol
Kellie:You could tell?

1 comment:

  1. Well done. Obviously, you couldn't let the Trinitarian "win," but how could I blame you :-P

    I did a few of these mock discussions a while back myself. They're a lot of fun, and it kinda messes with your head! But the good thing is, it forces you to really think about your own position more critically.