This part of the blog is not written by me but is taken from a website,for which I'll provide the link:
http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html
Some key points:(lots of texts to look up..git bizzee)
Either Jesus has to be the one true God, or else he is a false god. Carrying this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, Moses must be either the one and only true God or a false god, since he was made ELOHIM to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) The judges of Israel must be either the one and only true a true God or a else be false gods, since they were ELOHIM. (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 [See Acts 23:5]) The angels must be the only true God or else they are false gods, since they are ELOHIM. (Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim) The sons of God to whom the Logos came must be the only true God or they are false gods, since they are called EL, ELOHIM and THEOI. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 10:34,35) The *EL*of Laban's hand must either be the only true God, or else be a false god. (Genesis 31:29) The EL of the hand of Israel must the only true God, or else be a false god. (Deuteronomy The EL of your hand must be the only true God or else the EL of you hand must be a false god. (Proverbs 3:27) The EL of Ezekiel 32:21 -- the mighty rulers in the nations spoken of in context -- must all be the only true God or else false gods.
Jesus is not his God whom he was with, the only true God who sent him. -- John 17:1,3,5
Jesus denied that he was God by stating over and over that he was sent by the only true God, could do nothing of his own self, everything he had was given to him by God, etc. (Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,22,23,27-30,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26)
Hebrew words for "god", when applied to any other than Yahweh, can take on a more general meaning of might, strength, power.
We can say that there is much in the way of Hebraic cultural heritage that supports the idea that one can be scripturally be called or have the title of "God" in a sense other than that of Supreme Being, or the Supreme Power.
When considering the Hebrew word *EL*, that this word is used to mean other than God Almighty or a false god may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in denoted by *..*: "It is in the *power* of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no *might* in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our *power*." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the *great* mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the *power* of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Pray unto *a god* [mighty one] that cannot save." (Isaiah 45:20) "Who among the sons of the *mighty*." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*." (Psalm 29:1) "The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh]." (Psalm 50:1) "The *strong* among the mighty shall speak" (Ezekiel 32:21)
Now my thoughts:
If someone is one hundred percent God then they are not one hundred percent man unless you are willing to ignore simple truth in favor of wild philosophy and mathematical impossibility.Again,understanding the Hebrew times,God's agents WERE God(as designated reps whose words and actions were not their own but by means of the spirit and allowance of Jah) and God doesn't always mean false god OR true Almighty God and as seen from numerous texts can mean a mighty ,powerful being,and not always a false one.The false ones are not really either mighty,or powerful.So when Jah called David and Moses God he meant "mighty ones"..mighty by whose power?According to Isaiah 9:7 by whose zeal and power was Jesus made mighty?
Jesus profusely prayed for a reason(besides love),he feared,in his mortal flesh,that he might be abandoned,even though I'm sure he knew better.The flesh is weak.(and trinitarians think God could actually do this or even empty himself..twisting texts that say his SON did,NOT HIM)While trying to make sense of the fact that Jesus deserves praise,obeisance and glory ALONG with Jehovah,trinitarians have wrongfully assumed they HAVE to be the same God..because God is one right?Just a wee bit of reasoning should help one to realize that Jesus is glorifying the Almighty as His appointed chief agent and heavenly king.Remember the earthly kings were rendered service and obeisance,so one shouldn't marvel at Jesus having such,while STILL being just a SON,the MOST exalted son :)It is the same as honoring Jehovah ,as he is the one who appointed them and gave them power and might.(Jah will hand the kingdom over to Christ for a 1000 yrs so it is him,who possesses Jah's spirit without measure whom we are honoring and obeying to the glory of his father,who loves him more than we can fathom and who allows him and wills unto him all this amazing power)To put it blatantly simply,serving Jah's representatives and appointed kings is the same as serving him.Their words and dealings are NOT THEIR OWN when they are accomplishing his will.
Keep in mind also that Lord is applied to many as well ,and rightfully so,not because these people are Jehovah,but because lord is a title of the head of someone or the head of peoples(gen 18:20,matt 10:24,20:8,21:30,27:63,1 pet 3:6,mark 13:35,acts 25:26)Jah GIVES Jesus his designation,might and power just as he did Moses.Doesn't Jehovah deserve credit for what his servants do?So when Jehovah does something,then it says someone else did that same something,does it mean that the persons involved must be the same?Or maybe it means he uses agents and takes rightful credit?<--yep.Who could've done anything without his direction and spirit??(and designation)I challenge trinitarians to give me an instance where Jesus didn't have to be given something,again.Where was his God and father not credited?If it would be common sense for us to know the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron were from God's hand and spirit,why do we assume Jesus's weren't?Even when he said they were?!Even when the bible makes clear he has been and will be used for Jah to accomplish things through?If Jah's glory can surround an angel as his representative then why must Jesus be Jah just because he shares that glory too? **Luke 2:9-11: “And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city.’ ”(his reps gleam with his glory in more ways than one..the glory could be literal or it could be a miracle he performs through them,or a power he allows them to possess,ALL things to Jehovah's glory,the one who sends and the one who gives freely,especially to his most beloved!) **Isaiah 11:2:The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.(remember that dove descending?Jah's spirit without measure is always with his messiah!Notice,too that Jesus even has a healthy fear of the LORD..remember the constant supplication. **Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. 19 If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I myself will make him answer for it. ..So Jah's messages are in the mouths of his agents.Just like his miracles and salvation are in the ones he sends forth to accomplish those things. **Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face..So Ezekial credits himself with something Jehovah did,as his agent. **Jeremiah 1:9:Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth 10. See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant..So when we see that Jeremiah breaks down,overthrows,builds,plants etc..then couldn't it be said of either Jeremiah or Jehovah?And couldn't Jehovah say that he does all this alone since it is only by means of his spirit that Jeremiah could? **Jeremiah 2:2 :Go and announce to Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: I remember the unfailing loyalty of your youth, the love you had for me as a bride. I remember how you followed me into the desert, into a land that couldn't be farmed....again,they followed Jeremiah,and as Jah's rep,they were following Jah. **Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders.6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God. ..take note of Moses speaking AS God!..his words are not his own(in verse 6)!(who else's words were not his own?) **Job 42:11:and comforted him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him-->so did Jehovah cause the suffering of Job?Nope,but his allowing it made it attributable to him in that respect.So here we have Jah given credit for something Satan did because Jah didn't stop it.
**Gen. 40:8:Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me them, I pray you....Now the reason I pasted this text is this..Joseph,who said the words then proceeded to interpret the dreams!IF Jesus had said these words and then proceeded to do what Joseph did it would be cited all the time and used as proof of the trinity.Therefore when a servant(and yes Jesus served Jehovah and still does) of Jah's does something miraculous,what can we conclude?That they had no help?Then when they do accomplish something by means of God's spirit,I ask you,again,couldn't Jehovah say HE accomplished it ,alone even?
The book "Alleged Discrepancies in the Bible" by John W. Haley :
"It is consistent with Hebrew modes of thought that whatever occurs in the world, under the overruling providence of God, what he suffers to take place, should be attributed to his agency."
Imagine you have a God and father you know intimately well because he revealed his spirit fully to you and that you lived closer to him and ARE closer to him than any other child he has.Imagine your God needed you to accomplish something for him because for whatever reason he couldn't(his magnificence could not be beheld ,he could not possibly die etc) and he gave you the words to say and a thorough instruction guide to get things done,would you ignore all his wishes and commands?What if you loved him more than anyone in the world could ever fathom?What if he epitomized love himself AND promised you a fantastic reward upon completion of his assignment?What if he possessed some sort of majestic force he uses to help his will get accomplished and could pour it out anywhere or upon anyone he so desired?What if he used that force to be present with you and generously poured it upon you to help you make it through the assignment?And imagine upon completion of it,you get rewarded and he commands everyone to revere you with the same reverence they revere him as someone who ensured them their eternal lives in a perfect kingdom by what you accomplished.In no way by doing this though,was he negating his position as your boss and the one who gave you the power and will and even your very life to accomplish his will.And when you are freely and generously given all your power,will you ignore all that you have learned and all that you will learn from the one who gave it to you?Will you use the standards of the very one who you proclaim is your God and greater than you when you accomplish HIS WILL?Do you think he will abandon you in your future assignments ,you and your brothers that he allowed you to adopt as your own just because he loves you?He will always be there for you and you will always be his most beloved,faithful and true.Faithful and true and beloved to whom?Sent and used as agent and representative for whom?YOURSELF?When does all this suddenly MAKE YOU THE SAME GOD WHO SENT YOU AND GAVE YOU EVERYTHING?
The father GAVE Jesus EVERYTHING right?And what about the father being the only true God can't people grasp?(Mark 12:28-34)If Jesus was 1/3 of a godhead he wouldn't have distinguished himself from another third as lesser or had to be given anything from anyone.In no way shape or form can 1/3 of God be submissive to another 1/3 of God unless you are willing to open your window and toss logic clear to timbuktu in favor of biblically condemned philosophical leanings that were and apparently still are prevalent.Erroneous manmade "puffed up" "knowledge" outside of God's simple truth of his singularity and Jesus singularity,sonship,as messiah and king BY GOD'S appointment.God is now his own king?God is now his own God?God became a man?God died?God was tempted and possessed a will different than his own?God is his own father?God constantly gave 1/3 of himself credit for another 1/3's sayings and doings?1/3 of God inherited what another 1/3 of God had because 1/3 of God had emptied himself?You'll have to excuse me for my inability to grasp this wild philosophical greek-inspired conjecture,but didn't the bible say that he sent his SON?When did Son of God start meaning God?Who was the first trinitarian?And where does God or Jesus talk about their substances enough to start formulating creeds about it?Aren't all heavenly beings composed of a celestial nature?Who are trinitarians to define the nature and substance of the Almighty?Shouldn't we stick to what IS revealed?And if I am out of line saying 1/3 a lot because each person of the "godhead" is each 100% percent God then you'll just have to excuse me for saying you have 3 100% Gods.And if that angers you,you have to understand that is NOT my intention.I'm just being realistic and seeking to expose a doctrine I clearly oppose as a truth seeker and a holder to the singularity of the one and ONLY Almighty.(Deut 6:4,John 17:3,Ps. 83:18)It hurts me a little to see sincere people who have an awesome zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge,the very thing I am accused of.(Rom. 10:2)
from:
"Divine Truth or Human Tradition" by Patrick Navas:
"When we take into account the inevitable "falling away" or "apostasy" foretold in the Christian scriptures,and at the same time appreciating the very real influence of invisible though hostile spiritual forces that surround us,as well as the overall weakness and fallibility intrinsic to the human condition,it becomes to a certain degree understandable that devout students of the bible have gone into different directions on such a crucial matter."
"Nearly every argument made to advance and uphold this established doctrine always relies on a notable excessive degree of theological inference,an unusual and innovative kind of thinking,and even,in certain cases,farfetched philosophical speculation based on preconceived views and already established theological concepts."
Thursday, February 26, 2009
Tuesday, February 17, 2009
Imaginary conversation with a trinitarian
Kellie:You think 3 persons each individually called almighty God equals one God?
trinitarian:yes,3 persons,1 GOD
Kellie:How did you come to this conclusion?
trinitarian:those three persons are each called God so it has to mean they are all one God,because God is one
Kellie:So it doesn't matter to you that all kinds of people are called God,from Moses to angels to judges?
trinitarian:It is different because Jesus is worshipped and given God's name
Kellie:It doesn't matter to you that others are "proskeneo'd" to God's glory and given God's name as well?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus
Kellie:I agree that Jesus is more important than these others but does that mean he is God just because of his being exalted BY GOD above others?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..he shares God's throne and glory
Kellie:What of the others who do?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus because he is the EXACT representation of God's glory and ALL THE FULLNESS of God was in him in bodily form
Kellie:The bible says Jesus was given God's holy spirit WITHOUT measure,explaining his representing him so poignantly.Also,If Jesus is Almighty God and all of Jesus' fullness dwells in believers,does that mean they too have to be equally Almighty God?
trinitarian:Jesus is called the first and the last,the almighty,the alpha and Omega
Kellie:Actually he is only called the first and the last as a different application than that to Jehovah.It is succintly explained in context..first raised from the dead,last directly by Jah because he was GIVEN the key to death and hades,so that THROUGH him all others would be raised.It is QUITE common in scripture to apply identical phrases to different people because it could be said of BOTH for different reasons,in different applications and fulfillments
trinitarian:You mean to tell me you think there can be more than one first and last?
Kellie:yes,when you look at context absolutely..it is explained if you are willing to reason.BOTH times he is the immediate context is his death and resurrection.
trinitarian:What about Jehovah being called almighty as the one coming..we know Jesus is coming,not Jehovah so Jesus has to be Jehovah
Kellie:You don't think Jehovah will be with Jesus to exact vengeance?You don't think Jesus will use his father's standards and direction in judging etc?The bible says he'll be coming in the glory of his father and the angels!You don't think that the way of Jehovah IS the way of Jesus since Jesus does everything his father tells him to do and lives by his fathers standards?And Jesus isn't ever called almighty.
trintarian:you're dancing around the issue..They're each individually almighty God,but there's only one almighty God,existing in 3 persons.That simple.
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:the trinity is a bit of a mystery because great is the mystery of godliness
Kellie:It's only a mystery if it hasn't been revealed.What do you think of Deuteronomy 6:4?
trinitarian:I think echad denotes unity of persons
Kellie:Echad means a numerical one just like the English language "one" functions."Show me an instance where echad denotes unity with more than one person involved in that unity when those persons aren't all mentioned
trinitarian:I'll have to look into that
Kellie:great
triniatrian:Mind if I show you a list of titles applied to both that can only be applied to Jehovah?
Kellie:that'll be fine if you'll allow me as well to present to you a list of titles used of others and used of Jesus as well that would SEEM to be exclusive to either.
trinitarian:that's different because these people foreshadowed Jesus
Kellie:so you don't think it could also be that those words apply to both in different applications and not just because of foreshadowing?In other words..those words and phrases can be applied to both in separate fulfillments.Jesus is Yah's agent.And are you willing to say that all these people whom Jah created foreshadow Jah,whom you think Jesus is?
trinitarian:no ,they just foreshadow his human nature
Kellie:Where does the bible say Jesus was a hundred percent Jehovah on top of a hundred percent man?
trinitarian:that's just common sense because God can't stop being God even when he empties himself
Kellie:where does the bible say Jehovah emptied himself?Doesn't the bible say that Jesus humbled himself even though he was the Last Adam,heir to a throne, and that Jesus is Jehovah's son?
trinitarian:Son of God=God like son of man=man
Kellie:Isn't that a wild assumption since God created ALL things and man did not?
trinitarian:It's clear
Kellie:I think so too..I think son of God means son of God.Angels are sons of God.
Trinitarian:To which of the angels did he ever say that?!
Kellie:Jesus is the only begotten unique son of God because he was born of a virgin by God's spirit and most extolled heir.He conquered the world to save our lives.
trinitarian:that's another thing..only God can save us
Kellie: I agree..he designated someone to do so. But in the scales of justice who was powerful enough to make all of us lose our lives?
trinitarian:Adam?
Kellie:yes..wasn't he first created perfect earthly son of God?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:Isn't God perfectly just?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:so why then wouldn't another perfect creation of God be good enough to buy back what another had lost?
trinitarian:He said no God after him was formed.If you think Jesus is a "little god", you're a polytheist
Kellie:there are many gods,only one true Jehovah almighty God.No one else is Jehovah but Jehovah.Even when his agents are given his name,it is only a Hebrew right.Their words and actions are not their own when his spirit is directing them.Are you willing to say that People God HIMSELF called gods and lords are false ones?I'm not.
trinitarian:are you willing to give worship and sacred service to a creature?
Kellie:Are you willing to admit that created designated powerful beings are sometimes as chief agents and representatives of the Most High given "proskeneo" to Jehovah's glory?And rendered service BECAUSE they are upholding Jah's statutes in their powerful positions that he gave them?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..his name is above EVERY name.
Kellie:you think it is above Jehovah's?In light of 1 cor 15:27,28 are you willing to say that in instances where Jesus is above everyone else that it must mean he is Jehovah?Isn't it common sense to know that ,again,according to 1 Corinthians that it is obviously WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who MADE him above all things?Does Jehovah have to qualify that simple discernible truth every time?
trinitarian:In other words..you're willing to worship a creature and serve a creature and credit a creature for your salvation.
Kellie:I'm willing to accept Jesus as designated Lord,savior and theocratic king.Again,Jehovah allows his CHIEF agents obeisance.I have instances where it is appropriate ,but always to HIS glory,if you'd like to go through a few.I recognize that Jehovah saved and that Jehovah rules THROUGH Jesus.That we are to give those taking the lead among us "double honor" etc..Jesus is miles above them so why not honor him?As the one who most perfectly follows his father's footsteps,he has been rewarded with our honor and Jehovah's exaltation like no other!
trinitarian:sounds like creature worship to me.
Kellie:when angels and kings at times were "proskeneo'd" you think it was inappropriate?
trinitarian:Angels and kings aren't worshipped.Only Jehovah ,in 3 persons,is!They may be honored,but not worshipped
Kellie:The SAME word is used,and it can mean a number of things.If Jehovah told you that you were standing on sacred ground because a mighty angel showed up as his chief representative before you,would you bow before him,recognizing whose glory he was representative of,and whose words he was delivering,to the glory of the chief angel's God?Wasn't Moses called God?Weren't angels called gods?Why were Jah's kings "proskeneo'd"?
trinitarian:I'm not willing to worship a creature.
Kellie:Jesus isn't just some creature.He was exalted above the angels.Notice though that it doesn't say it was his rightful position but that he was rewarded ONLY BECAUSE of his perfect obedience and faithfulness?It says he was better ONLY to the extent that he inherited a name better,not that he has some inherent greater ontology or greek substance.When one is exalted it means they are raised to a higher position than they had before.
Trinitarian:right,he was exalted again back to where he was because he had emptied himself
Kellie:But if he was always equally almighty God then that human nature shouldn't have mattered.You can't be exalted by someone if you are 100 percent God.
trinitarian:you are ignoring the human nature
Kellie:My point is the God nature should trump the human and negate the fact that the human nature would have any limitations at all.
trinitarian:I'm not sure I get what you mean
Kellie:Jesus was exalted ,not from his human nature,but from his previous position as Jah's chief word and representative to his chief word and representative PLUS theocratic king of Jah's kingdom government,with a much touted admired name that is above every other except the One's who gave it to him,one that he EARNED through love,supplication,obedience and saving mankind.
trinitarian:Oh so you don't think Jesus is God?lol
Kellie:You could tell?
trinitarian:yes,3 persons,1 GOD
Kellie:How did you come to this conclusion?
trinitarian:those three persons are each called God so it has to mean they are all one God,because God is one
Kellie:So it doesn't matter to you that all kinds of people are called God,from Moses to angels to judges?
trinitarian:It is different because Jesus is worshipped and given God's name
Kellie:It doesn't matter to you that others are "proskeneo'd" to God's glory and given God's name as well?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus
Kellie:I agree that Jesus is more important than these others but does that mean he is God just because of his being exalted BY GOD above others?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..he shares God's throne and glory
Kellie:What of the others who do?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus because he is the EXACT representation of God's glory and ALL THE FULLNESS of God was in him in bodily form
Kellie:The bible says Jesus was given God's holy spirit WITHOUT measure,explaining his representing him so poignantly.Also,If Jesus is Almighty God and all of Jesus' fullness dwells in believers,does that mean they too have to be equally Almighty God?
trinitarian:Jesus is called the first and the last,the almighty,the alpha and Omega
Kellie:Actually he is only called the first and the last as a different application than that to Jehovah.It is succintly explained in context..first raised from the dead,last directly by Jah because he was GIVEN the key to death and hades,so that THROUGH him all others would be raised.It is QUITE common in scripture to apply identical phrases to different people because it could be said of BOTH for different reasons,in different applications and fulfillments
trinitarian:You mean to tell me you think there can be more than one first and last?
Kellie:yes,when you look at context absolutely..it is explained if you are willing to reason.BOTH times he is the immediate context is his death and resurrection.
trinitarian:What about Jehovah being called almighty as the one coming..we know Jesus is coming,not Jehovah so Jesus has to be Jehovah
Kellie:You don't think Jehovah will be with Jesus to exact vengeance?You don't think Jesus will use his father's standards and direction in judging etc?The bible says he'll be coming in the glory of his father and the angels!You don't think that the way of Jehovah IS the way of Jesus since Jesus does everything his father tells him to do and lives by his fathers standards?And Jesus isn't ever called almighty.
trintarian:you're dancing around the issue..They're each individually almighty God,but there's only one almighty God,existing in 3 persons.That simple.
Kellie:huh?
trinitarian:the trinity is a bit of a mystery because great is the mystery of godliness
Kellie:It's only a mystery if it hasn't been revealed.What do you think of Deuteronomy 6:4?
trinitarian:I think echad denotes unity of persons
Kellie:Echad means a numerical one just like the English language "one" functions."Show me an instance where echad denotes unity with more than one person involved in that unity when those persons aren't all mentioned
trinitarian:I'll have to look into that
Kellie:great
triniatrian:Mind if I show you a list of titles applied to both that can only be applied to Jehovah?
Kellie:that'll be fine if you'll allow me as well to present to you a list of titles used of others and used of Jesus as well that would SEEM to be exclusive to either.
trinitarian:that's different because these people foreshadowed Jesus
Kellie:so you don't think it could also be that those words apply to both in different applications and not just because of foreshadowing?In other words..those words and phrases can be applied to both in separate fulfillments.Jesus is Yah's agent.And are you willing to say that all these people whom Jah created foreshadow Jah,whom you think Jesus is?
trinitarian:no ,they just foreshadow his human nature
Kellie:Where does the bible say Jesus was a hundred percent Jehovah on top of a hundred percent man?
trinitarian:that's just common sense because God can't stop being God even when he empties himself
Kellie:where does the bible say Jehovah emptied himself?Doesn't the bible say that Jesus humbled himself even though he was the Last Adam,heir to a throne, and that Jesus is Jehovah's son?
trinitarian:Son of God=God like son of man=man
Kellie:Isn't that a wild assumption since God created ALL things and man did not?
trinitarian:It's clear
Kellie:I think so too..I think son of God means son of God.Angels are sons of God.
Trinitarian:To which of the angels did he ever say that?!
Kellie:Jesus is the only begotten unique son of God because he was born of a virgin by God's spirit and most extolled heir.He conquered the world to save our lives.
trinitarian:that's another thing..only God can save us
Kellie: I agree..he designated someone to do so. But in the scales of justice who was powerful enough to make all of us lose our lives?
trinitarian:Adam?
Kellie:yes..wasn't he first created perfect earthly son of God?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:Isn't God perfectly just?
trinitarian:yes
Kellie:so why then wouldn't another perfect creation of God be good enough to buy back what another had lost?
trinitarian:He said no God after him was formed.If you think Jesus is a "little god", you're a polytheist
Kellie:there are many gods,only one true Jehovah almighty God.No one else is Jehovah but Jehovah.Even when his agents are given his name,it is only a Hebrew right.Their words and actions are not their own when his spirit is directing them.Are you willing to say that People God HIMSELF called gods and lords are false ones?I'm not.
trinitarian:are you willing to give worship and sacred service to a creature?
Kellie:Are you willing to admit that created designated powerful beings are sometimes as chief agents and representatives of the Most High given "proskeneo" to Jehovah's glory?And rendered service BECAUSE they are upholding Jah's statutes in their powerful positions that he gave them?
trinitarian:It's different for Jesus..his name is above EVERY name.
Kellie:you think it is above Jehovah's?In light of 1 cor 15:27,28 are you willing to say that in instances where Jesus is above everyone else that it must mean he is Jehovah?Isn't it common sense to know that ,again,according to 1 Corinthians that it is obviously WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who MADE him above all things?Does Jehovah have to qualify that simple discernible truth every time?
trinitarian:In other words..you're willing to worship a creature and serve a creature and credit a creature for your salvation.
Kellie:I'm willing to accept Jesus as designated Lord,savior and theocratic king.Again,Jehovah allows his CHIEF agents obeisance.I have instances where it is appropriate ,but always to HIS glory,if you'd like to go through a few.I recognize that Jehovah saved and that Jehovah rules THROUGH Jesus.That we are to give those taking the lead among us "double honor" etc..Jesus is miles above them so why not honor him?As the one who most perfectly follows his father's footsteps,he has been rewarded with our honor and Jehovah's exaltation like no other!
trinitarian:sounds like creature worship to me.
Kellie:when angels and kings at times were "proskeneo'd" you think it was inappropriate?
trinitarian:Angels and kings aren't worshipped.Only Jehovah ,in 3 persons,is!They may be honored,but not worshipped
Kellie:The SAME word is used,and it can mean a number of things.If Jehovah told you that you were standing on sacred ground because a mighty angel showed up as his chief representative before you,would you bow before him,recognizing whose glory he was representative of,and whose words he was delivering,to the glory of the chief angel's God?Wasn't Moses called God?Weren't angels called gods?Why were Jah's kings "proskeneo'd"?
trinitarian:I'm not willing to worship a creature.
Kellie:Jesus isn't just some creature.He was exalted above the angels.Notice though that it doesn't say it was his rightful position but that he was rewarded ONLY BECAUSE of his perfect obedience and faithfulness?It says he was better ONLY to the extent that he inherited a name better,not that he has some inherent greater ontology or greek substance.When one is exalted it means they are raised to a higher position than they had before.
Trinitarian:right,he was exalted again back to where he was because he had emptied himself
Kellie:But if he was always equally almighty God then that human nature shouldn't have mattered.You can't be exalted by someone if you are 100 percent God.
trinitarian:you are ignoring the human nature
Kellie:My point is the God nature should trump the human and negate the fact that the human nature would have any limitations at all.
trinitarian:I'm not sure I get what you mean
Kellie:Jesus was exalted ,not from his human nature,but from his previous position as Jah's chief word and representative to his chief word and representative PLUS theocratic king of Jah's kingdom government,with a much touted admired name that is above every other except the One's who gave it to him,one that he EARNED through love,supplication,obedience and saving mankind.
trinitarian:Oh so you don't think Jesus is God?lol
Kellie:You could tell?
Sunday, February 15, 2009
Reasoning with Trinitarians part 2
I know there are mysteries about God that as finite wee humans we cannot comprehend,but thankfully what he has revealed we can know.And he has revealed that he is not a trinity..And Jesus has revealed that he is inferior,even after his ascension.(John 14:28,eph 1:17)Common sense and scripture unite to declare to us the simple truth of Jehovah and his appointed king!
What does the spirit of the antichrist confess?That Jesus never came in the flesh and that he never died and was raised?
Don't trinitarians believe that Jesus was 100% God AS WELL as 100% flesh.Can God be flesh?(num 23:19,rom 1:23)And where does the bible say he was 100 percent God on top of that 100 percent flesh?(1 cor 15:21)I only see that he was flesh .(1 tim 2:5)Trinitarians also believe Jesus as "God the son" never died.Guess what?Jesus died,and not just a flesh capsule of his.Is Jesus REALLY 2 natures..because the trinitarian numbers add up to 200 percent.(trinitarians employ "voodoo" mathematics ;)The bible makes clear that Jesus,ALL of him,the ACTUAL PERSON of him died.For three whole days.If someone has proof otherwise,bring it on.And if your proof is that his spirit went to God then I urge you to look up the definition of that word used for spirit and realize that happens to everyone at death.(Luke 23:46).Is no one really dead?And what is up with the whole resurrection thing if not?(acts 24:15)And why are the dead described by Jesus as sleeping?(John 11:11)And the bible as having no thoughts etc.?(ecc 9:5,10)Spirit can mean life(pneuma ),and when we die our future life prospects,clearly,are given back to Jehovah.(ps 146:4)Who can restore "the breath of life" to us just as he did to Jesus upon OUR resurrection.(gen 2:7)I keep emphasizing these points because if someone is willing to be honest with scripture and self,one MUST admit Jesus died and therefore cannot be God.And that if anyone doesn't believe Jesus REALLY DIED for us(ALL OF HIM),he is hazardously confessing a "different Jesus".(2 cor 11:3,4..apostasy started way back even then!)Did anyone in the bible who was resurrected ever mention the torment they had burning alive or the bliss they had in heaven before they were brought back??Wonder why that is?Death means lack of breath,thinking ability,speech,you name it..Anything beyond that is not biblical.Dead can be brought BACK to life.(1 cor 15:40)It's basic truth.Are you maybe just reasoning through a "what you've always been taught" kind of lens?(mark 7:13)I hope upon further prayerful examination and meditation you will consider that Jesus was REALLY flesh when he came to the earth,which rules out the ability to be God.(Is 31:3,1 tim 6:16.John 4:24)And that he was REALLY dead for three days,not alive.Otherwise,again,you have been taught "another Jesus" than that which the bible declares(1 tim 1:3).No death,no atonement.Death of only one nature of 2,unbiblical.(mark 8:31,col 2:8)And not a real *death* according to the bible's own definition of the word!
I don't agree with all this person believes but I found this page interesting..check it out!(I've never seen anyone put Jesus on a witness stand in a blog before.)
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html
Interestingly enough,trinitarians oft say that only God would be good enough to have died to remove our sin from us,yet they say God didn't die,just his human nature.But by that very reasoning,wouldn't his human nature alone not have been good enough?
**Matt 27:62-64:'**He**(a person,not just a flesh capsule that once had a person in it) has risen from the dead
**Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
**Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades.(Jesus)
**John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”
**John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”
**Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)
**The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:16)
**Hebrews 5:7 "As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God".
I for one can't appreciate the philosophical spin trinitarians put on who Jehovah and Jesus are.(1 cor 8:6,John 17:3)
Another objection:Jesus is given God's name so he must be God.(John 17:11)First of all if someone is given something he isn't the one who gave it.Just like if someone is representing someone else(I don't care how perfectly) that person cannot be the one they represent.Being in the form of someone ALSO excludes the possibility that you are that someone.(trinity "proof" texts usually refute themselves.)
Jesus LITERALLY means "Jehovah is salvation" so everytime you are calling upon Jesus name you are calling on Jehovah's.(For those of you who think it is unuterrable and too holy to be recognized.)There's a new name given to all sons if God.(rev 14:1)Jehovah's name is said to be in his agents.(ex 23:20,21)As his agents of message deliverance and salvation(in Jesus case) they bear his name..His name is his will.And he uses his agents to "cause whatever he wills to become."His name means "he causes to become".So whoever he uses to cause his will to take place,bear his name.(ex 7:1)That simple.Whomever he uses become "as God' and whomever he speaks through,CAN be termed "Yahweh" as his word if Yahweh so wills.THE AGENT BEARS THE NAME OF THE PRINCIPLE.(especially if they are chief agent or specially favored,as would the Angel of Yah and Jesus have been..)This is typical in Hebrew times!And a Hebrew truth that trinitarians haven't recognized,at least not in the case of Jesus.His agents are even "proskuneo'd" to his glory,not just Jesus.Those who did recognized who it REALLY was they were honoring,as his representatives and appointed kings etc.As lords and gods.(yes,real lords and gods..there should be no implication here that these common titles mean Sovereign Lord Most High of the universe).Clearly,Jah is one.And he means one..not triune,which doesn't mean one.I would like to make perfectly clear that God makes perfectly clear his singularity,nor does he shy away from saying "I am God.Worship me"..something Jesus neva eva said.However he did say a lot of things that proved he was inferior,and not because he is Godman,but because he is inferior as God's Son and servant.(consistently)ONLY to Jah though,he's above everyone else.(1 cor 15:27,28)I think the most exalted appointed king of the Most High God deserves sacred service and obeisance.(even less important earthly kings had these things) Worship means all kinds of things .You don't know him if you think he IS the same being as the one HE worships,supplicating with his face to the ground!His will was even different and so he had to beg for it to conform.
Trinitarians think God has a God.Amazing.I think one of the problems trinitarians have is reconciling the fact that Jesus has SO much power but yet isn't God.But think of all the things the OT reps and the NT disciples accomplished due to his spirit being upon them.Then multiply that by whatever number because Jesus is the greatest of all his messengers for obvious reasons,but you STILL have a messenger and someone GIVEN their power,any which way you cut it.(john 3:34,6:57,7:16,17,28-30,8:16,26,col 1:3)
I have a page I want to recommend for understanding the whole agent/principle thing.Just read under "AGENCY"
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47287
Jehovah will continue to use Jesus as his chief agent in EVERYTHING.Saving,building and maintaining a kingdom,holding together a new creation,judging,resurrecting,you name it.(John 14:6,1 cor 8:6,rev 1:1,John 5:19,27,heb 1:2,acts 2:36,2 Cor. 5:17,18,Dan. 7:13,14).
Not a single soul can find an instance where Jesus isn't given everything he has,from words to power etc.(have you read Matt,Mark,Luke and John lately?)And that to me is powerful proof indeed that not only is he not Jehovah,but that he depends upon him for his EVERY word deed and power.Now how in the world could anyone take that fact and think "Jesus is Jehovah"?!
John 13:16: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.(ahem..1 cor 15:27,28..use it or lose it ;)
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
John 5: 43-44: I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
One last trinitarian objection I will address..John 12:41 talks about Isaiah seeing Jesus glory but Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory in Isaiah 6:1 so Jesus must be Jehovah!!
Cotext,context,context
Now Isaiah spoke about Jesus all through Isaiah ch 52 and 53 and the glory as represented by his suffering and resurrection.And according to context John ch 12(vs 23 & 37,38 to name just a couple) IS talking about Isaiah chs 52 &53...THAT is WHEN Isaiah spoke about Jesus..he didn't speak about Jesus in Isaiah ch 6...He did see a manifestation or a representation of Yahweh in Isaiah 6 though.Yahweh is the one who gave him the words TO SAY about Jesus in the 52nd and 53rd chapter.
Iaiah 52:10: LORD has bared his holy arm(that would be Jesus) in the sight of all the nations; All the ends of the earth will behold the salvation of our God...13:See, my servant shall prosper, he shall be raised high and greatly exalted
Isaiah 53:1:Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (is 51:9)
4:Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5:But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
11:After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
See also John 2:11:Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.(so glory is revealed in MANY ways..see also..John 11:4,1 Peter 1:11)
further explanation for this from this website:
http://www.scripturaltruths.com
Which says:
Isaiah saw the glory of the Messiah in his work.It was this work that was truly his glory. He lived, suffered and died, by which he “bore the sins of many,” (Isa. 53:12) resulting in our salvation.
As John points out, Isaiah himself had a basic understanding of this astounding unfaith. Isaiah experienced unbelieving rejection in his own ministry, but even more he saw Jesus’ glory [death/resurrection] and spoke about him."
When we consider John 12 we find that Isaiah 53:1 is quoted and is the primary text in view, whereas the passage from Isaiah 6 is cited to only further explain this primary text."
Jehovah isn't selfish in the allowance of his agents to bear strength and glory!However,he will never allow false idols or false gods to do so..which is the context the texts about him sharing his glory with no one should be viewed in light of..the surrounding events.And those were that people were praising graven images etc.Also,the texts about Yah being the only God and savior should be viewed in light of this context,as others ARE properly termed gods and saviors.Jesus is the chief inheritor of the greatest blessings of Jah.We live because of his sufferings,and so why,again,WOULDN'T Jah reward him for THAT?!
What does the spirit of the antichrist confess?That Jesus never came in the flesh and that he never died and was raised?
Don't trinitarians believe that Jesus was 100% God AS WELL as 100% flesh.Can God be flesh?(num 23:19,rom 1:23)And where does the bible say he was 100 percent God on top of that 100 percent flesh?(1 cor 15:21)I only see that he was flesh .(1 tim 2:5)Trinitarians also believe Jesus as "God the son" never died.Guess what?Jesus died,and not just a flesh capsule of his.Is Jesus REALLY 2 natures..because the trinitarian numbers add up to 200 percent.(trinitarians employ "voodoo" mathematics ;)The bible makes clear that Jesus,ALL of him,the ACTUAL PERSON of him died.For three whole days.If someone has proof otherwise,bring it on.And if your proof is that his spirit went to God then I urge you to look up the definition of that word used for spirit and realize that happens to everyone at death.(Luke 23:46).Is no one really dead?And what is up with the whole resurrection thing if not?(acts 24:15)And why are the dead described by Jesus as sleeping?(John 11:11)And the bible as having no thoughts etc.?(ecc 9:5,10)Spirit can mean life(pneuma ),and when we die our future life prospects,clearly,are given back to Jehovah.(ps 146:4)Who can restore "the breath of life" to us just as he did to Jesus upon OUR resurrection.(gen 2:7)I keep emphasizing these points because if someone is willing to be honest with scripture and self,one MUST admit Jesus died and therefore cannot be God.And that if anyone doesn't believe Jesus REALLY DIED for us(ALL OF HIM),he is hazardously confessing a "different Jesus".(2 cor 11:3,4..apostasy started way back even then!)Did anyone in the bible who was resurrected ever mention the torment they had burning alive or the bliss they had in heaven before they were brought back??Wonder why that is?Death means lack of breath,thinking ability,speech,you name it..Anything beyond that is not biblical.Dead can be brought BACK to life.(1 cor 15:40)It's basic truth.Are you maybe just reasoning through a "what you've always been taught" kind of lens?(mark 7:13)I hope upon further prayerful examination and meditation you will consider that Jesus was REALLY flesh when he came to the earth,which rules out the ability to be God.(Is 31:3,1 tim 6:16.John 4:24)And that he was REALLY dead for three days,not alive.Otherwise,again,you have been taught "another Jesus" than that which the bible declares(1 tim 1:3).No death,no atonement.Death of only one nature of 2,unbiblical.(mark 8:31,col 2:8)And not a real *death* according to the bible's own definition of the word!
I don't agree with all this person believes but I found this page interesting..check it out!(I've never seen anyone put Jesus on a witness stand in a blog before.)
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/trinity-on-trial-verdict-by-kn-stovra.html
Interestingly enough,trinitarians oft say that only God would be good enough to have died to remove our sin from us,yet they say God didn't die,just his human nature.But by that very reasoning,wouldn't his human nature alone not have been good enough?
**Matt 27:62-64:'**He**(a person,not just a flesh capsule that once had a person in it) has risen from the dead
**Matt. 12:39-40:three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
**Revelation 1:18:the living one. I was dead, but look-I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades.(Jesus)
**John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”
**John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”
**Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)
**The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:16)
**Hebrews 5:7 "As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God".
I for one can't appreciate the philosophical spin trinitarians put on who Jehovah and Jesus are.(1 cor 8:6,John 17:3)
Another objection:Jesus is given God's name so he must be God.(John 17:11)First of all if someone is given something he isn't the one who gave it.Just like if someone is representing someone else(I don't care how perfectly) that person cannot be the one they represent.Being in the form of someone ALSO excludes the possibility that you are that someone.(trinity "proof" texts usually refute themselves.)
Jesus LITERALLY means "Jehovah is salvation" so everytime you are calling upon Jesus name you are calling on Jehovah's.(For those of you who think it is unuterrable and too holy to be recognized.)There's a new name given to all sons if God.(rev 14:1)Jehovah's name is said to be in his agents.(ex 23:20,21)As his agents of message deliverance and salvation(in Jesus case) they bear his name..His name is his will.And he uses his agents to "cause whatever he wills to become."His name means "he causes to become".So whoever he uses to cause his will to take place,bear his name.(ex 7:1)That simple.Whomever he uses become "as God' and whomever he speaks through,CAN be termed "Yahweh" as his word if Yahweh so wills.THE AGENT BEARS THE NAME OF THE PRINCIPLE.(especially if they are chief agent or specially favored,as would the Angel of Yah and Jesus have been..)This is typical in Hebrew times!And a Hebrew truth that trinitarians haven't recognized,at least not in the case of Jesus.His agents are even "proskuneo'd" to his glory,not just Jesus.Those who did recognized who it REALLY was they were honoring,as his representatives and appointed kings etc.As lords and gods.(yes,real lords and gods..there should be no implication here that these common titles mean Sovereign Lord Most High of the universe).Clearly,Jah is one.And he means one..not triune,which doesn't mean one.I would like to make perfectly clear that God makes perfectly clear his singularity,nor does he shy away from saying "I am God.Worship me"..something Jesus neva eva said.However he did say a lot of things that proved he was inferior,and not because he is Godman,but because he is inferior as God's Son and servant.(consistently)ONLY to Jah though,he's above everyone else.(1 cor 15:27,28)I think the most exalted appointed king of the Most High God deserves sacred service and obeisance.(even less important earthly kings had these things) Worship means all kinds of things .You don't know him if you think he IS the same being as the one HE worships,supplicating with his face to the ground!His will was even different and so he had to beg for it to conform.
Trinitarians think God has a God.Amazing.I think one of the problems trinitarians have is reconciling the fact that Jesus has SO much power but yet isn't God.But think of all the things the OT reps and the NT disciples accomplished due to his spirit being upon them.Then multiply that by whatever number because Jesus is the greatest of all his messengers for obvious reasons,but you STILL have a messenger and someone GIVEN their power,any which way you cut it.(john 3:34,6:57,7:16,17,28-30,8:16,26,col 1:3)
I have a page I want to recommend for understanding the whole agent/principle thing.Just read under "AGENCY"
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47287
Jehovah will continue to use Jesus as his chief agent in EVERYTHING.Saving,building and maintaining a kingdom,holding together a new creation,judging,resurrecting,you name it.(John 14:6,1 cor 8:6,rev 1:1,John 5:19,27,heb 1:2,acts 2:36,2 Cor. 5:17,18,Dan. 7:13,14).
Not a single soul can find an instance where Jesus isn't given everything he has,from words to power etc.(have you read Matt,Mark,Luke and John lately?)And that to me is powerful proof indeed that not only is he not Jehovah,but that he depends upon him for his EVERY word deed and power.Now how in the world could anyone take that fact and think "Jesus is Jehovah"?!
John 13:16: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.(ahem..1 cor 15:27,28..use it or lose it ;)
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
John 5: 43-44: I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
John 17:3:Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
One last trinitarian objection I will address..John 12:41 talks about Isaiah seeing Jesus glory but Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory in Isaiah 6:1 so Jesus must be Jehovah!!
Cotext,context,context
Now Isaiah spoke about Jesus all through Isaiah ch 52 and 53 and the glory as represented by his suffering and resurrection.And according to context John ch 12(vs 23 & 37,38 to name just a couple) IS talking about Isaiah chs 52 &53...THAT is WHEN Isaiah spoke about Jesus..he didn't speak about Jesus in Isaiah ch 6...He did see a manifestation or a representation of Yahweh in Isaiah 6 though.Yahweh is the one who gave him the words TO SAY about Jesus in the 52nd and 53rd chapter.
Iaiah 52:10: LORD has bared his holy arm(that would be Jesus) in the sight of all the nations; All the ends of the earth will behold the salvation of our God...13:See, my servant shall prosper, he shall be raised high and greatly exalted
Isaiah 53:1:Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (is 51:9)
4:Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5:But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
11:After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
See also John 2:11:Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.(so glory is revealed in MANY ways..see also..John 11:4,1 Peter 1:11)
further explanation for this from this website:
http://www.scripturaltruths.com
Which says:
Isaiah saw the glory of the Messiah in his work.It was this work that was truly his glory. He lived, suffered and died, by which he “bore the sins of many,” (Isa. 53:12) resulting in our salvation.
As John points out, Isaiah himself had a basic understanding of this astounding unfaith. Isaiah experienced unbelieving rejection in his own ministry, but even more he saw Jesus’ glory [death/resurrection] and spoke about him."
When we consider John 12 we find that Isaiah 53:1 is quoted and is the primary text in view, whereas the passage from Isaiah 6 is cited to only further explain this primary text."
Jehovah isn't selfish in the allowance of his agents to bear strength and glory!However,he will never allow false idols or false gods to do so..which is the context the texts about him sharing his glory with no one should be viewed in light of..the surrounding events.And those were that people were praising graven images etc.Also,the texts about Yah being the only God and savior should be viewed in light of this context,as others ARE properly termed gods and saviors.Jesus is the chief inheritor of the greatest blessings of Jah.We live because of his sufferings,and so why,again,WOULDN'T Jah reward him for THAT?!
Monday, February 9, 2009
Reasoning with trinitarians.
What I have heard one too many times:
There can only be one first and last!.....If the same words or phrases are used of both it has to mean Jesus is God!
Let's say (and I am TERRIBLE AT THIS but a girl's gotta try)I open the first vegetarian restaurant in my hometown.And the last one,there will be no others.I could be called the first and the last to have done so.If I hired someone first who then hired everyone else FOR ME afterward (using my standards of qualification of course and hey,I'm STILL boss)he /she could be called the first and the last as well.The first person hired directly by me and the last hired directly by me.
I addressed this in another blog ,so I'll make it quick.Look at context..he was dead then alive(first resurrected by God directly)and the last directly by God because look!Jesus was GIVEN the key to resurrect others.(and yes revelation makes it clear by context that this is the most true interpretation,as a diff application)Once again,being USED by God and being bestowed with privileges by God. Also,they are both first and last of their kind.Jehovah is the first and last Almighty God and Jesus is the first and last unique only begotten chief messenger son of God.Also,Jesus is the first new creation of God and the last to be directly created by God alone since every other new creation is IN Christ Jesus as the one who holds it together by power from God.So,yep,diff applications,same terminology.Jah is clever like that.
If you took two similar people,say a father and a son(how convenient) and a book as big as the bible was written about them both,I bet you would find all kinds of similarities,especially if they worked together on everything and had the same jobs and purposes in life,Sharing the same morals and home ,you name it.And if you isolated the words or truths that could be applied to both,you might even think they were the same human being,but would that make it so?And if one was called son and one was called the father of that son,and let's say someone worked for them,and they both held positions higher than that someone,would it mean that the father and the son are the same person and boss?
Same terminology,different applications.
Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings(Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14),of which it SOUNDS like there could be only one!Melchizedeck is said to have no beginning or end of days or priesthood,which SOUNDS like that would be unique to him.But bible readers are aware the same is said of Christ's kingship and priesthood.The bible says that God is Jesus throne(which means he upholds Christ's kingship,as the appointer and statute giver) but that is also said of David and we know from revelation that the anointed members of Christ's bride are to sit up on that same throne!(see also 1 kings 2:24 and 1 chron 29:23)Jesus' disciples ,like Christ, were called "the light of the world." (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) Hebrews is a book that commonly uses OT passages and applies them to Jesus.Passages that formerly applied to David,Solomon and Jehovah.IF you are going to use the standards you want to use as a trinitarian,are you REALLY being fair?Is saying "well ,David and Solomon foreshadowed Christ so it isn't the same thing" a good reason to be bias here?No.Because the same texts are applied to both for the same reasons the ones about Jah are applied to Jesus...DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS AND FULFILLMENTS and pertaining to BOTH in different ways ..that simple.In other words,to be fair and unbiased ,if you are going to assume Jesus is Jehovah by this reasoning,then you MUST assume Jesus is David and Solomon,unless you're simply unwilling to be unbiased.If someone is wondering what I am talking about ..compare these texts :)..(ps 102:25-27, heb 1:10-12,ps 2:7,2 sam 7:14,heb 1:5,ps 22:22,heb2:12,ps 45:6-7,heb 1:9-10)To put it very simply,the words could be said of both because Christ was used by Jah to fulfill all things.So it is true in a different way for Jesus than it is for Jehovah,yet still true.
examine the following:
Exodus 12:51:And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.
Deuteronomy 32:12:The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him
Exodus 15:22:So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur
Does this mean that since Jehovah accomplished this ALONE that Moses is Jehovah?OR is Jehovah allowed credit for what his servants accomplish?And how do his servants accomplish these things?(John 5:27, John 17:2)Fortunately,the bible always helps us understand these sorts of things,with clarification in other texts(Psalm 77:20)
Jah clarified that He saved using(and by means of) Jesus :)(John 3:16)
also compare:
Exodus 7:17:God [now] says, 'Through this you will know that I am God.' I will strike the water of the Nile with the staff in my hand, and [the water] will turn into blood.
Exodus 7:19,20:[Aaron] held the staff up, and then struck the Nile's water in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials. The Nile's water was transformed into blood.
Self explanatory.
Also compare..
2 Sam reads 24:1 :"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."
1 Chron 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."
Satan and Jehovah are attributed with THE SAME THING..does it make them the same person?
See also:
Matthew 4:10:Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY
1 Chronicles 29:20:Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.
and..
1 Kings 1:23:And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
Sometimes "proskeneo"(worship,bow down,obeisance etc) is appropriate when given to others besides Jehovah..if you don't like it take it up with him.It's RELATIVE "worship.".Proskeneo can mean a number of things and it is applied and accepted a # of times by a number of people.Trinitarians would like to believe this isn't the case..at least from my communication with them..they assume it is the same for Jesus and Jehovah and when anyone else is,it has to mean something else.And I say when it is given to ANYONE besides Jehovah,it means it is to his glory..as the one who appoints certain people to power and allows others to have dominion.If Jesus did anything that wasn't to the glory of his father,prove it.He acknowledged his father's superiority (even AFTER his ascension to heaven) and his reliance upon him at all times.I would venture to say that if you worship Jesus AS Almighty Jehovah God,you're doing something scripture does not tell you to do.Jesus is the second most high over all the universe,STILL second to God.(And NOT because he is in subordination as a wife would be to a husband but because NO ONE is equal to God..not even the one he MADE king,Lord,and firstborn..Acts 2:36,Ps. 89:27,1 Cor 15:27,28)Sons have NEVER not been given life by their fathers.Neva eva.So do trinitarians REALLY know Jesus?
If Jesus is used as the wisdom ,word ,agent and representative of God then yep you better believe they can both be called a lot of the same titles etc.
I dare anybody to find me a privilege,a special power,a glory,a single holy word that Jesus was not given from his own God and father.And if he was given what he has from his God and father,then couldn't it be said that the same titles and phrases would obviously be used for both?And couldn't the scriptures applied to Jah in the OT that are then applied to Jesus in the NT signify either different fulfillments OR just said of either because Jesus is Jah's word,chief messenger,and agent.(THROUGH whom he holds the world together and makes it new,judges,teaches,saves etc)??Keep in mind Jesus is his father's heir to a kingdom,so OF COURSE he is mighty and shares the SAME privileges,but it still doesn't make him the "same being" as the one who gave those to him.When Jehovah in the OT was talking about not sharing his glory etc. ,when you look at context(which is important,no?)he is defending himself as superior to false gods and idols and as the SOURCE of everything and everyone else,even Jesus!Which only makes sense since sons do not exist as the literal same perso"being" or God that their father is.And comparing the equality of a human son to a human father,despite subordination,is not the same as comparing a son of God to God because God is not human and is infinitely greater than everyone.(matt 19:17,john 14:28,john 20:17)Jesus is second in command(does Jah REALLY need to qualify EVERY TIME it says Jesus is above everyone and greater than everything that it is with the exception of the one who made that so??(1 cor 15:27,28),and I am not negating him..He's glad to be there.(John 13:16,John 5:30-32,Rev 1:1)
I'm going to encourage trinitarians to pray to Jehovah and talk to him only for once without even acknowleging Jesus until you are finished and then requesting everything in the name of Jesus..just ONCE to see how it feels.I'm not suggesting you don't acknowledge Jesus in prayer..Sometimes I appeal to and talk to him earnestly and wholeheartedly..I'm just asking you please see if you can't try to distinguish the two in a reasonable way,always requesting a spirit of understanding.(1 tim 2:5,John 14:6,matt 6:9-13)<--go to WHOM ultimately,through whom?Who is the one to ultimately be reached?I am addressing those who only know Jesus and assume that is the totality and end of worship.
Jesus is the way to God yes,the mediator..Does that mean we go to Jesus and stop there or that we reach Jehovah THROUGH him.In other words,isn't reaching Jehovah important in the whole picture?And how can we reach him whom we ignore in favor of only being attentive to our relationship with his appointed king and mediator?(who,mind you,prayed rigorously to and relied upon the same God we should,JAH!)Remember,God is jealous and wants us to use his provisions and understand we are too unholy to reach him without that sacrifice but we are able to now by means of that sacrifice.Take advantage!Jehovah wants you to talk to him and recognize him by means of his beloved Amen.If the mediator is a door to something,isn't the destination to be appreciated and desired?Shouldn't you be reaching both?And the word both alone implies two of something.And two means two.(I love discussing mathematics with trinitarians..who apparently think Jehovah is a times table)There is one Jesus Christ and one Jehovah God and they are not the same God.(1 cor 8:6)Jehovah is allowed to appoint kings and dispense power and give inheritances where he will.And we are to freely give a ton of honor to his most important appointed king,while yet recognizing that Christ is NOT in the same God as the one who bestowed upon him these tremendous blessings.It's common sense,no offense.That doesn't mean the ones he gives these things to literally become him.Just like the disciples won't become Christ even though they are one with him and will share the same responsibilities and glories and throne.(John 17:22,Revelation 2:27,28,Rev 3:21,5:10)
Are you aware one reason why Jehovah had to proclaim his singularity in the OT so much?Besides the fact that there were so many false gods being worshipped,but many of them were triune!From the time of Nimrod,Semaramis,and Tammuz on.When Nimrod died and people wanted someone else to venerate Tammuz(his son) was worshipped as "God the son"!<--THAT's where that phrase originated,NOT from the bible.All triune gods originated from those three in some way.As you can imagine,this had to be most appalling to Jah!I am thinking this is one reason he had to emphasize his singularity.He is defending himself from these triune notions(and other false ones),crying out to you from his holy word!LISTEN.(deut 6:4,psalm 83:18)
Exploring all this I get a little more peeved at the removal of the divine name thousands of times shamelessly from bible translations.Is man's superstition more important than Jehovah's commands?The appalling removal IMO has helped lead to the trinity doctrine.Since Yahweh is called Lord and God almost 7000 times instead of Yahweh,as was in the original texts,people associate common titles(1 cor 8:5) with Jah more than his personal name and so even subconsciously when they see Jesus being called Lord or even a couple times God (possibly...it's certainly debatable) they automatically think Almighty.I'm not suggesting that is the only reason people believe in it but it can't help!I find it personally disturbing that Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation translators are much maligned for inserting the divine name where 200 times (even though I agree they shouldn't have!)in the New Testament but everyone else gets a "get out of jail free" card for removing it almost 7000.(ex 3:15,Ps 145:21,matt 6:9,micah 4:5)
There can only be one first and last!.....If the same words or phrases are used of both it has to mean Jesus is God!
Let's say (and I am TERRIBLE AT THIS but a girl's gotta try)I open the first vegetarian restaurant in my hometown.And the last one,there will be no others.I could be called the first and the last to have done so.If I hired someone first who then hired everyone else FOR ME afterward (using my standards of qualification of course and hey,I'm STILL boss)he /she could be called the first and the last as well.The first person hired directly by me and the last hired directly by me.
I addressed this in another blog ,so I'll make it quick.Look at context..he was dead then alive(first resurrected by God directly)and the last directly by God because look!Jesus was GIVEN the key to resurrect others.(and yes revelation makes it clear by context that this is the most true interpretation,as a diff application)Once again,being USED by God and being bestowed with privileges by God. Also,they are both first and last of their kind.Jehovah is the first and last Almighty God and Jesus is the first and last unique only begotten chief messenger son of God.Also,Jesus is the first new creation of God and the last to be directly created by God alone since every other new creation is IN Christ Jesus as the one who holds it together by power from God.So,yep,diff applications,same terminology.Jah is clever like that.
If you took two similar people,say a father and a son(how convenient) and a book as big as the bible was written about them both,I bet you would find all kinds of similarities,especially if they worked together on everything and had the same jobs and purposes in life,Sharing the same morals and home ,you name it.And if you isolated the words or truths that could be applied to both,you might even think they were the same human being,but would that make it so?And if one was called son and one was called the father of that son,and let's say someone worked for them,and they both held positions higher than that someone,would it mean that the father and the son are the same person and boss?
Same terminology,different applications.
Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings(Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14),of which it SOUNDS like there could be only one!Melchizedeck is said to have no beginning or end of days or priesthood,which SOUNDS like that would be unique to him.But bible readers are aware the same is said of Christ's kingship and priesthood.The bible says that God is Jesus throne(which means he upholds Christ's kingship,as the appointer and statute giver) but that is also said of David and we know from revelation that the anointed members of Christ's bride are to sit up on that same throne!(see also 1 kings 2:24 and 1 chron 29:23)Jesus' disciples ,like Christ, were called "the light of the world." (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) Hebrews is a book that commonly uses OT passages and applies them to Jesus.Passages that formerly applied to David,Solomon and Jehovah.IF you are going to use the standards you want to use as a trinitarian,are you REALLY being fair?Is saying "well ,David and Solomon foreshadowed Christ so it isn't the same thing" a good reason to be bias here?No.Because the same texts are applied to both for the same reasons the ones about Jah are applied to Jesus...DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS AND FULFILLMENTS and pertaining to BOTH in different ways ..that simple.In other words,to be fair and unbiased ,if you are going to assume Jesus is Jehovah by this reasoning,then you MUST assume Jesus is David and Solomon,unless you're simply unwilling to be unbiased.If someone is wondering what I am talking about ..compare these texts :)..(ps 102:25-27, heb 1:10-12,ps 2:7,2 sam 7:14,heb 1:5,ps 22:22,heb2:12,ps 45:6-7,heb 1:9-10)To put it very simply,the words could be said of both because Christ was used by Jah to fulfill all things.So it is true in a different way for Jesus than it is for Jehovah,yet still true.
examine the following:
Exodus 12:51:And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.
Deuteronomy 32:12:The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him
Exodus 15:22:So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur
Does this mean that since Jehovah accomplished this ALONE that Moses is Jehovah?OR is Jehovah allowed credit for what his servants accomplish?And how do his servants accomplish these things?(John 5:27, John 17:2)Fortunately,the bible always helps us understand these sorts of things,with clarification in other texts(Psalm 77:20)
Jah clarified that He saved using(and by means of) Jesus :)(John 3:16)
also compare:
Exodus 7:17:God [now] says, 'Through this you will know that I am God.' I will strike the water of the Nile with the staff in my hand, and [the water] will turn into blood.
Exodus 7:19,20:[Aaron] held the staff up, and then struck the Nile's water in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials. The Nile's water was transformed into blood.
Self explanatory.
Also compare..
2 Sam reads 24:1 :"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah."
1 Chron 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."
Satan and Jehovah are attributed with THE SAME THING..does it make them the same person?
See also:
Matthew 4:10:Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY
1 Chronicles 29:20:Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the LORD and to the king.
and..
1 Kings 1:23:And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
Sometimes "proskeneo"(worship,bow down,obeisance etc) is appropriate when given to others besides Jehovah..if you don't like it take it up with him.It's RELATIVE "worship.".Proskeneo can mean a number of things and it is applied and accepted a # of times by a number of people.Trinitarians would like to believe this isn't the case..at least from my communication with them..they assume it is the same for Jesus and Jehovah and when anyone else is,it has to mean something else.And I say when it is given to ANYONE besides Jehovah,it means it is to his glory..as the one who appoints certain people to power and allows others to have dominion.If Jesus did anything that wasn't to the glory of his father,prove it.He acknowledged his father's superiority (even AFTER his ascension to heaven) and his reliance upon him at all times.I would venture to say that if you worship Jesus AS Almighty Jehovah God,you're doing something scripture does not tell you to do.Jesus is the second most high over all the universe,STILL second to God.(And NOT because he is in subordination as a wife would be to a husband but because NO ONE is equal to God..not even the one he MADE king,Lord,and firstborn..Acts 2:36,Ps. 89:27,1 Cor 15:27,28)Sons have NEVER not been given life by their fathers.Neva eva.So do trinitarians REALLY know Jesus?
If Jesus is used as the wisdom ,word ,agent and representative of God then yep you better believe they can both be called a lot of the same titles etc.
I dare anybody to find me a privilege,a special power,a glory,a single holy word that Jesus was not given from his own God and father.And if he was given what he has from his God and father,then couldn't it be said that the same titles and phrases would obviously be used for both?And couldn't the scriptures applied to Jah in the OT that are then applied to Jesus in the NT signify either different fulfillments OR just said of either because Jesus is Jah's word,chief messenger,and agent.(THROUGH whom he holds the world together and makes it new,judges,teaches,saves etc)??Keep in mind Jesus is his father's heir to a kingdom,so OF COURSE he is mighty and shares the SAME privileges,but it still doesn't make him the "same being" as the one who gave those to him.When Jehovah in the OT was talking about not sharing his glory etc. ,when you look at context(which is important,no?)he is defending himself as superior to false gods and idols and as the SOURCE of everything and everyone else,even Jesus!Which only makes sense since sons do not exist as the literal same perso"being" or God that their father is.And comparing the equality of a human son to a human father,despite subordination,is not the same as comparing a son of God to God because God is not human and is infinitely greater than everyone.(matt 19:17,john 14:28,john 20:17)Jesus is second in command(does Jah REALLY need to qualify EVERY TIME it says Jesus is above everyone and greater than everything that it is with the exception of the one who made that so??(1 cor 15:27,28),and I am not negating him..He's glad to be there.(John 13:16,John 5:30-32,Rev 1:1)
I'm going to encourage trinitarians to pray to Jehovah and talk to him only for once without even acknowleging Jesus until you are finished and then requesting everything in the name of Jesus..just ONCE to see how it feels.I'm not suggesting you don't acknowledge Jesus in prayer..Sometimes I appeal to and talk to him earnestly and wholeheartedly..I'm just asking you please see if you can't try to distinguish the two in a reasonable way,always requesting a spirit of understanding.(1 tim 2:5,John 14:6,matt 6:9-13)<--go to WHOM ultimately,through whom?Who is the one to ultimately be reached?I am addressing those who only know Jesus and assume that is the totality and end of worship.
Jesus is the way to God yes,the mediator..Does that mean we go to Jesus and stop there or that we reach Jehovah THROUGH him.In other words,isn't reaching Jehovah important in the whole picture?And how can we reach him whom we ignore in favor of only being attentive to our relationship with his appointed king and mediator?(who,mind you,prayed rigorously to and relied upon the same God we should,JAH!)Remember,God is jealous and wants us to use his provisions and understand we are too unholy to reach him without that sacrifice but we are able to now by means of that sacrifice.Take advantage!Jehovah wants you to talk to him and recognize him by means of his beloved Amen.If the mediator is a door to something,isn't the destination to be appreciated and desired?Shouldn't you be reaching both?And the word both alone implies two of something.And two means two.(I love discussing mathematics with trinitarians..who apparently think Jehovah is a times table)There is one Jesus Christ and one Jehovah God and they are not the same God.(1 cor 8:6)Jehovah is allowed to appoint kings and dispense power and give inheritances where he will.And we are to freely give a ton of honor to his most important appointed king,while yet recognizing that Christ is NOT in the same God as the one who bestowed upon him these tremendous blessings.It's common sense,no offense.That doesn't mean the ones he gives these things to literally become him.Just like the disciples won't become Christ even though they are one with him and will share the same responsibilities and glories and throne.(John 17:22,Revelation 2:27,28,Rev 3:21,5:10)
Are you aware one reason why Jehovah had to proclaim his singularity in the OT so much?Besides the fact that there were so many false gods being worshipped,but many of them were triune!From the time of Nimrod,Semaramis,and Tammuz on.When Nimrod died and people wanted someone else to venerate Tammuz(his son) was worshipped as "God the son"!<--THAT's where that phrase originated,NOT from the bible.All triune gods originated from those three in some way.As you can imagine,this had to be most appalling to Jah!I am thinking this is one reason he had to emphasize his singularity.He is defending himself from these triune notions(and other false ones),crying out to you from his holy word!LISTEN.(deut 6:4,psalm 83:18)
Exploring all this I get a little more peeved at the removal of the divine name thousands of times shamelessly from bible translations.Is man's superstition more important than Jehovah's commands?The appalling removal IMO has helped lead to the trinity doctrine.Since Yahweh is called Lord and God almost 7000 times instead of Yahweh,as was in the original texts,people associate common titles(1 cor 8:5) with Jah more than his personal name and so even subconsciously when they see Jesus being called Lord or even a couple times God (possibly...it's certainly debatable) they automatically think Almighty.I'm not suggesting that is the only reason people believe in it but it can't help!I find it personally disturbing that Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation translators are much maligned for inserting the divine name where 200 times (even though I agree they shouldn't have!)in the New Testament but everyone else gets a "get out of jail free" card for removing it almost 7000.(ex 3:15,Ps 145:21,matt 6:9,micah 4:5)
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